Op. 25 no. 6 measure 7?

[lazyfingers]

I disagree with this.  Play any left hand piece and you'll understand finger legato is not necessary simply because it's impossible.

What have you got against the left hand anyway?

But as you say, you're of the old-school finger playing way so you would believe that legato in touch is the same as legato in sound.

I didn't describe my way as an "old-school finger playing way". Just as you have adopted "Chopin's fingering", which apparently he must have written some 170 years ago, along with the actual Etude he composed, there is much to like about "old-school" ways. The irony is that you do understand what "Etude" actually means don't you? He was trying to teach his pupils something sans all the new fangled ideas that have intervened in the 20 years by the new "cognisanti" which apparently you are a disciple of, or even (heaven forbid) a new "guru" of technique.

As for touch and sound, they are the same... the touch begets the sound. The audience does not get the "touch", and the performer gets the touch to impart the sound. There... may that beget another discourse of new fangled waffle.

[j_menz]

I disagree with this.  Play any left hand piece and you'll understand finger legato is not necessary simply because it's impossible.   But as you say, you're of the old-school finger playing way so you would believe that legato in touch is the same as legato in sound.

The left hand can't manage legato at all? 

[faulty_damper]

I didn't describe my way as an "old-school finger playing way". Just as you have adopted "Chopin's fingering", which apparently he must have written some 170 years ago, along with the actual Etude he composed, there is much to like about "old-school" ways. The irony is that you do understand what "Etude" actually means don't you? He was trying to teach his pupils something sans all the new fangled ideas that have intervened in the 20 years by the new "cognisanti" which apparently you are a disciple of, or even (heaven forbid) a new "guru" of technique.

If he really meant finger legato, then he would have written this piece at a much slower tempo with staccato in the left hand forcing the pianist not to use the damper or else ruin the character of the piece.  Instead, he writes long passages of thirds at a blistering tempo and a bass line with melodic accompaniment which must be pedaled in order to sound like music.

[lazyfingers]

If he really meant finger legato,

I have already addressed this fixation you have about "finger" legato. There is no italian term called "dito legato".

then he would have written this piece at a much slower tempo with staccato in the left hand forcing the pianist not to use the damper or else ruin the character of the piece.

Non sequitur. You do know that the absence of pedal marks is sufficient to qualify as "not to use the damper". The rest of the conjecture you proposed is therefore erroneous.

By the way, the use of pedal in legato is not in reference to anything in this piece but to your earlier assertion (1-1-1-1) that you could achieve legato merely with the pedal.

Instead, he writes long passages of thirds at a blistering tempo and a bass line with melodic accompaniment which must be pedaled in order to sound like music.

Actually this piece is marked with pedal! It is however true of all Chopin Etudes that the pedalling be advanced and sensitive so that there are no smudges. You will note that Chopin selectively marked certain parts with pedal, and only those parts. That should be instructive on its own.

[faulty_damper]

You will note that Chopin selectively marked certain parts with pedal, and only those parts. That should be instructive on its own.

If you mean to imply that it should be pedaled only where it is marked, that would be an incorrect assumption.

[dima_76557]

As far as I am concerned, Josef Lhévinne set a more than amazing musical/artistic/poetic benchmark for this etude a long long time ago with very little pedal and a birdlike lightness for the thirds. No tricks, no shortcuts, no compromise:

[lazyfingers]

If you mean to imply that it should be pedaled only where it is marked, that would be an incorrect assumption.

I never said that. You are just extending other peoples arguments to suit your proposition. I have merely indicated where the composer considered it important to be pedalled. It is not hard to argue that he didn't intend for the whole piece to be heavily pedalled, as you seem to imply it must to preserve musicality.

Also, the assertion that

If he really meant finger legato, then he would have written this piece at a much slower tempo with staccato in the left hand forcing the pianist not to use the damper or else ruin the character of the piece

That is purely your conjecture. Clearly the composer did mark some passages with pedal. (ie. "some" does not mean "all")

and

Instead, he writes long passages of thirds at a blistering tempo and a bass line with melodic accompaniment which must be pedaled in order to sound like music.

Is actually your assertion that is not supported by evidence. You will note from Urtext editions (I have Henle's) where the baseline melody is marked pedal in bars 3 and 4. Only the beginning of 5 is marked pedal, also beginnings of 9 and 10. I don't think Chopin intended for the whole chromatic passage to be smudged. If you have to use a pedal, I would hazard a "flutter" pedal in order to avoid presenting a wall of smudged noise to the audience.

I think it is a false dilemma that you present where you said it is either "blistering tempo AND pedal" or "if not pedal, it must be slow". An assertion that clearly is not supported in music text or evidence. Other people have shown it possible to do - as the post by dima_76557above shows.

[nyiregyhazi]

I disagree with this.  Play any left hand piece and you'll understand finger legato is not necessary simply because it's impossible.   But as you say, you're of the old-school finger playing way so you would believe that legato in touch is the same as legato in sound.

Actually, listen anyone less than a consumate virtuoso and you'll see just how audible physical gaps are on the whole. A pianist who subjects himself to the difficult of hiding gaps merely because he thinks the pedal is enough to sort things is simply a fool.

[awesom_o]

Legato is legato. The sooner you abase yourself of "finger legato" and other forms of legato the better for you. No composer distinguishes about how you achieve legato.

From reading your earlier posts, you appear to have a "secret technique" that not only does not require (excess?) finger effort nor even technical practice as you seem to dismiss those with "excess" finger action as unsustainable in later life. Of course, my own personal experience and accumulated knowledge is diagrammatically opposed - given that I am of the "old school" (even though those you "diss" appear to be of later pedigree). As you can gather I am also not a fan of the Taubman school who debase "finger" technique nor other new fangled idea about piano - no apologies offered for being so.

But it does appear that those with "finger technique" have an advantage in Etude Op 25 No 6. There is simply no time for double or triple rotation, and there is no substitute for old fashioned fingering and finger exercises.

+1

[faulty_damper]

Actually, listen anyone less than a consumate virtuoso and you'll see just how audible physical gaps are on the whole. A pianist who subjects himself to the difficult of hiding gaps merely because he thinks the pedal is enough to sort things is simply a fool.

Godowsky would say you do not understand the pedal.  I would, too.

[nyiregyhazi]

Godowsky would say you do not understand the pedal.  I would, too.

No, godowsky would agree that careless articulation is not automatically transcended by a long pedal. Catching a note does not mean it will sound connected to the next. Tonal control is simply easier when you use physical legato. When you can't do so by necessity, you have to do the best you can under the circumstances. But there's no reason to make difficulty for yourself. These are etudes in connecting notes musically under physically difficult circumstances. Not mere etudes in remembering to have the pedal down when you play long notes that cannot be held. Only a complete ignoramus would be so naive as to think that is enough.

The fantasy impromptu is almost always pedalled. If you think it can be done without any physical legato in the semi quavers, either you have truly incredible technique or very low standards of phrasing.

[gapoc459]

I think you guys are arguing over something trivial, although some interesting points have been raised by both. Clearly it is impossible to do PERFECT legato, especially if you get to a really fast tempo, but that certainly does not imply that using the pedal is satisfactory. The musical effect is simply NOT the same. It seems the best solution is to practice as much legato as possible ("legato" often implies, "as much legato as possible," no?), and pedal on top of that; but certainly the pedal should not be used as an excuse to forgo the technical work required on this piece.


Another question: any advice on the 24 13 pattern that appears in measures 15-16 and elsewhere. Is there a specific hand position that I should be trying to achieve? It seems that the 14 25, as well as the chromatics are much easier to play clearly...

[nyiregyhazi]

I think you guys are arguing over something trivial, although some interesting points have been raised by both. Clearly it is impossible to do PERFECT legato, especially if you get to a really fast tempo, but that certainly does not imply that using the pedal is satisfactory. The musical effect is simply NOT the same. It seems the best solution is to practice as much legato as possible ("legato" often implies, "as much legato as possible," no?), and pedal on top of that; but certainly the pedal should not be used as an excuse to forgo the technical work required on this piece.


Another question: any advice on the 24 13 pattern that appears in measures 15-16 and elsewhere. Is there a specific hand position that I should be trying to achieve? It seems that the 14 25, as well as the chromatics are much easier to play clearly...

At the highest levels of accomplishment, these are far from trivial. While many can punch out etudes these days, few can evoke truly smooth musical lines.

[faulty_damper]

Another question: any advice on the 24 13 pattern that appears in measures 15-16 and elsewhere. Is there a specific hand position that I should be trying to achieve? It seems that the 14 25, as well as the chromatics are much easier to play clearly...

I can describe the movement but I've not had any success with communicating it clearly.  But I'll try:

Rock the forearm forward. You'll notice that the hand angles downward at the wrist as you do this, and also the fingers don't need to move as much.

[nyiregyhazi]

I can describe the movement but I've not had any success with communicating it clearly.  But I'll try:

Rock the forearm forward. You'll notice that the hand angles downward at the wrist as you do this, and also the fingers don't need to move as much.

No, because the arm moves. So you propose to not only perform this movement on every note but also reset the position in order to repeat it? And this is your smoothly flowing arm-as it pumps out this movement and reset at a rate of once per note? Or you're simply suggesting to do the whole thing with a permanently raised wrist? If so, why didn't you say so in plain language?

[lazyfingers]

A pianist who subjects himself to the difficult of hiding gaps merely because he thinks the pedal is enough to sort things is simply a fool.

I suspect faulty disagrees that legato senza pedal is different to legato con pedal especially when he claims

But as you say, you're of the old-school finger playing way so you would believe that legato in touch is the same as legato in sound.

Yes, there are different tonal qualities one can achieve within legato senza pedal. As there are many different shades achievable from staccato, postato etc.

Ngi  - I share with you that con pedal is not a substitute for legato senza pedal. At the basic level (and putting aside tonal qualities for now), all the dampers are raised, which immediately allows all strings to resonate. Furthermore, because the dampers are left off, the note that is being released continues to vibrate. The only way to approximate the effects of senza pedal with con pedal is to pedal on every note. Something that is impossible in a running passage. The quality of sound is therefore not the same.

And the funny thing is because you can achieve different tonal qualities with legato senza pedal, when you do use the pedal, you also can achieve different tonal qualities. Just ask Rachmaninoff.

[faulty_damper]

Rock the forearm forward. You'll notice that the hand angles downward at the wrist as you do this, and also the fingers don't need to move as much.

I'm pretty sure I was not clear in communicating the actual physical movements.  This movement is a huge part of my technique and one that I've tried to describe before (unsuccessfully) and hinted at in another thread.  It's the knock-knock movement with the wrist.  I don't know how to describe this movement in isolation simply because it's not used in isolation as the entire playing apparatus moves together.

I might have to retract what I said about rocking the forearm forward, because it doesn't really feel like a rocking motion; it doesn't feel like it comes from the shoulder, either, because the movement is so minute.  However, the largest movement is witnessed at the wrist and I don't know what I'm actually doing to achieve such a movement.  It all moves together as one and I can't break it down without distorting what is actually occurring.  But the physical sensation is complete ease.  There is absolutely no sensation of tension when performing this motion.  I don't know if this description is actually helpful, but it adds to my previous statement of the rocking forward motion, which if taken exactly would probably distort what you're trying to achieve: absolute ease.

[faulty_damper]

About neurological conditioning:
I anticipated that the biggest hurdle in learning this piece would be the neurological conditioning and development needed to to alternate the fingers rapidly.  In a previous post some time ago (I don't know when or where) I suggested that in order to quickly develop the nerves would to be intensely activate them, and the only way to increase intensity would be to play fast and loud.  Someone also suggested pressing harder into the keybed as this can also achieve the same or similar result.  So for this piece, I recommend using these strategies to quickly condition and develop the nerves, even though it will probably result in sloppiness of coordination.  At this point, it's the neurological conditioning and development we are focusing on.  We can alternate practice between conditioning and coordination so that we don't achieve sloppy alternations with the fingers

[faulty_damper]

Earlier I mentioned that there is a grasping movement with the 1-4 together.  This is the best and easiest movement I've found to depress the opening thirds.  The thumb does not go down to depress the key, it grasps to do so so a sideways motion of the thumb is observed.  Also, the 4 is used as a pivot on the D# (and elsewhere with this figuration) so the arm is not held floating while the thirds are performed.