How to achieve this technique :O?

[tom1205]

How to achieve this technique :O?

[theholygideons]

How to achieve this technique :O?

easy, put the pedal down and make sure everything is blurred. Make sure your wrists are all droopy and sh*t and put rubato everywhere.

[faulty_damper]

She actually has a rather poor technique by my standards.  My forearms used to be as big as hers.  You can see how much muscle she has by how much it droops down.  I never trust any pianist whose forearms are bigger than mine as it indicates muscle-building, a sure indicator of poor technique.

Anyway, it's not a difficult study with the correct movements.  It's just fast and loud but that doesn't mean it's difficult.

[awesom_o]

She actually has a rather poor technique by my standards.  My forearms used to be as big as hers.  You can see how much muscle she has by how much it droops down. 

+1.... although I'm pretty sure the droopy part is fat, not muscle.

In this video, Horowitz mentions how difficult this Etude is, and screws it up several times at the tricky spots.

Maybe you can post a recording or a video showing us how you play it?

I believe you when you say it's easy.... I just wish to hear your interpretation!

[shabbatshalom]

She actually has a rather poor technique by my standards.

I am also very interested in your technique by your standards! It always amazes me how many forum posters are more concerned with how it looks than how it sounds, all the while not being able to hold a candle the pianists they critique. Now, I'm not a big fan of VL's musicianship, but she can do what she wishes, and that is good technique. Please, for the sake of the whole forum and the pianistic world, post your version with your technical standards!

As far as achieving technique, you'll only be as good as your ear.

[dima_76557]

she can do what she wishes, and that is good technique.

That's right. As a matter of fact, she's not even performing here; just fooling around a bit with one of the pieces in her repertoire. Just look at her posture; very casual, not a position you take on to give your best to the world. That's probably how she drinks tea when she just gets out of bed. Although one may often disagree with what she does musically, she's much more than just your average pianist, no doubt in my mind about that.

[visitor]

I'd be happy to just have something along these lines...

[mjames]

I am also very interested in your technique by your standards! It always amazes me how many forum posters are more concerned with how it looks than how it sounds, all the while not being able to hold a candle the pianists they critique. Now, I'm not a big fan of VL's musicianship, but she can do what she wishes, and that is good technique. Please, for the sake of the whole forum and the pianistic world, post your version with your technical standards!

As far as achieving technique, you'll only be as good as your ear.

Lol, good luck on getting those videos. I've asked him several times to demonstrate me how to play piano with his "correct" technique. He usually proceeds with his rambling after ignoring my request. Remember, you're talking to the guy who thinks that Horowitz has a shitty technique.

[shabbatshalom]

Lol, good luck on getting those videos. I've asked him several times to demonstrate me how to play piano with his "correct" technique. He usually proceeds with his rambling after ignoring my request. Remember, you're talking to the guy who thinks that Horowitz has a shitty technique.

Haha I figured. But it's probably for the best. The sheer beauty produced by his physically correct motions and lack of "co-contraction" would probably kill us all.

[cabbynum]

he is one of the most arrogant people on these forums, threads do one of two things after one of his posts. They die, or they erupt into flames. I would hate to have that reputation, and the funny thing is. It would be incredibly easy for him to prove us wrong. Simply pull 2 or 3 pieces out of his "huge" repertoire and go to town on video for us. We would either all be in Awe or we would all realize how much of a bull pooper he was (i dont wanna get edited out) I think he is afraid of the latter. Secretly deep down that is. Because someone who thinks so highly of themselves in an outward way doesnt actually think that highly on a reflective state. The most probable answer is that he is an extremely Insecure man who knows he has little to know pianistic power for his length of study and he comes to a place where people can neither prove nor disprove his abilities. So there for he is able to "Wow" us. But the thing is, when you are that cocky for a certain amount of time it starts to work against you.
So yeah I would love to hear him play, but its not gonna happen. He is just gonna lie to us so that he can somehow feel as if he has succeeded even for a small moment. These small "boosts" of confidence moments end up bringing him down further in the medium run. Making him try harder. Jumping to more and more extremes. So we can expect to watch his behavior become more and more childish in means standing higher over us in his mind.

or i could have just said "Oh what an ass"

[pover]

hahhahhaa cabbynum, judging by your posts, i'm starting to like you

[shabbatshalom]

hahhahhaa cabbynum, judging by your posts, i'm starting to like you

+5

[faulty_damper]

+1.... although I'm pretty sure the droopy part is fat, not muscle.

Considering how thin she is, it's not fat.  It's muscle.  People don't get fat just in their forearms, they would get fat all over.

[faulty_damper]

I am also very interested in your technique by your standards! It always amazes me how many forum posters are more concerned with how it looks than how it sounds, all the while not being able to hold a candle the pianists they critique. Now, I'm not a big fan of VL's musicianship, but she can do what she wishes, and that is good technique. Please, for the sake of the whole forum and the pianistic world, post your version with your technical standards!

As far as achieving technique, you'll only be as good as your ear.

It's incorrect to assume that if you sound good, you must also play good.  In factuality, you can sound good with a lot of practice with a poor technique because you have good musicianship. Likewise, you can sound bad with a good technique, though this is an issue of poor musicianship. 

[faulty_damper]

he is one of the most arrogant people on these forums, threads do one of two things after one of his posts. They die, or they erupt into flames. I would hate to have that reputation, and the funny thing is. It would be incredibly easy for him to prove us wrong. Simply pull 2 or 3 pieces out of his "huge" repertoire and go to town on video for us. We would either all be in Awe or we would all realize how much of a bull pooper he was (i dont wanna get edited out) I think he is afraid of the latter. Secretly deep down that is. Because someone who thinks so highly of themselves in an outward way doesnt actually think that highly on a reflective state. The most probable answer is that he is an extremely Insecure man who knows he has little to know pianistic power for his length of study and he comes to a place where people can neither prove nor disprove his abilities. So there for he is able to "Wow" us. But the thing is, when you are that cocky for a certain amount of time it starts to work against you.
So yeah I would love to hear him play, but its not gonna happen. He is just gonna lie to us so that he can somehow feel as if he has succeeded even for a small moment. These small "boosts" of confidence moments end up bringing him down further in the medium run. Making him try harder. Jumping to more and more extremes. So we can expect to watch his behavior become more and more childish in means standing higher over us in his mind.

or i could have just said "Oh what an ass"

It's funny how you insinuate that I start flame wars when it's you and others who are doing the attacking.  I have done no such thing.  Hypocrisy requires idiocy and ignorance.

[cabbynum]

+5

+13.89

[nyiregyhazi]

Considering how thin she is, it's not fat.  It's muscle.  People don't get fat just in their forearms, they would get fat all over.

The idea that developing muscle in the forearm is a sign of bad technique is one of the dumbest things you've said yet-and with the constant repetitions you make of other dumb ideas (without having once given us either specifics of an example of who you consider to have good technique) there's some stiff competition.

[shabbatshalom]

It's incorrect to assume that if you sound good, you must also play good.  In factuality, you can sound good with a lot of practice with a poor technique because you have good musicianship. Likewise, you can sound bad with a good technique, though this is an issue of poor musicianship. 

This is fascinating indeed! So you're saying that you can sound bad and have a good technique? So VL sounds pretty darn good with her bad technique, and I assume you sound pretty darn bad with your good technique? Then I think I'd rather not have your good technique!

Obviously, at least to any sane human being, this is a completely irrational idea. If you sound good, which is the entire purpose of any technique, then you have good technique. Any fool would realize this, if they have even a modicum of musicianship.

This quote of yours is one for the ages, F_D, and one I will regale all of my current and future students and colleagues with to their eternal amusement! Thank you!  

[visitor]

i perform many repetitive movement with my legs when i exercise. i get stronger and can do more and more each time. my legs are bigger now. i must be using incorrect technique.

[faulty_damper]

i perform many repetitive movement with my legs when i exercise. i get stronger and can do more and more each time. my legs are bigger now. i must be using incorrect technique.

You're making a false analogy. Piano playing is not about how far you can kick or throw the piano - it's not about finger strengthening.  Good technique is effortless, not requiring such muscle-building workouts.  However, the overwhelming majority of pianists believe that playing piano is like training for an Olympic event; the more the muscles burn and the more it hurts, the better the pianist becomes.  This is simply not the case.

[faulty_damper]

You should also note that if you attack me, I will ignore you and never respond until you learn good manners.

[shabbatshalom]

Or you could defend your idea that a bad sounding pianist can have a good technique.

Or you could describe what a good technique is.

Some defense of your ideas would be interesting.

And what about the whole forearm thing? You don't like the way her forearms look so she has to be a bad pianist? And your standard for good-sized forearms are your own? I'm pretty sure Gilels had bigger forearms than VL. Don't you see how this could sound a little ludicrous?

[faulty_damper]

My ideas require no defense on my part since I'm perfectly able to do them.  However, on your part, it requires the effort to try them out at the piano and see for yourself.  I do not keep anything I do at the piano a secret and I write about it freely.

As for her forearms, it doesn't say anything about how she sounds, but it says a lot about how she practices and plays the piano.  Since this topic is about technique (and not musicianship), my comments were a critique of her technique.  It requires endless hours of practice to develop and maintain, something that most students do not have and most would become frustrated at their poor advancement that they eventually give up.  Why chop down trees with a spork when you have a chainsaw?

[cabbynum]

Or you could defend your idea that a bad sounding pianist can have a good technique.

Or you could describe what a good technique is.

Some defense of your ideas would be interesting.

And what about the whole forearm thing? You don't like the way her forearms look so she has to be a bad pianist? And your standard for good-sized forearms are your own? I'm pretty sure Gilels had bigger forearms than VL. Don't you see how this could sound a little ludicrous?

I have strong fore arms from being an athlete. Do I have bad technique?

[Bob]

It could really be taken the wrong way but... I'd take her sloppy technique.  Haha.

Don't blame me.  I blame the thread title.

[mjames]

It's incorrect to assume that if you sound good, you must also play good.  In factuality, you can sound good with a lot of practice with a poor technique because you have good musicianship. Likewise, you can sound bad with a good technique, though this is an issue of poor musicianship. 

Over 3K posts and not one video? Just one video. One is all I ask.

[visitor]

You're making a false analogy. Piano playing is not about how far you can kick or throw the piano - it's not about finger strengthening.  Good technique is effortless, not requiring such muscle-building workouts.  However, the overwhelming majority of pianists believe that playing piano is like training for an Olympic event; the more the muscles burn and the more it hurts, the better the pianist becomes.  This is simply not the case.

Hmm. Fair enough. I agree w you but I also believe a certain punt I conditioning helps too. Maybe a bit of both would be good I suppose.

[marik1]

Good technique is effortless...

While this is correct, what confuses me is your passage about Rachmaninov (who had one of the most effortless techniques in entire history of pianism... perhaps with the only exception of Hoffmann and Lhevinne). Nevertheless, you still were saying that he "had severe deficiencies in technique". Somehow those statements are in odds... Care to elaborate?

Thanks, M

[theholygideons]

My ideas require no defense on my part since I'm perfectly able to do them.  However, on your part, it requires the effort to try them out at the piano and see for yourself.  I do not keep anything I do at the piano a secret and I write about it freely.

As for her forearms, it doesn't say anything about how she sounds, but it says a lot about how she practices and plays the piano.  Since this topic is about technique (and not musicianship), my comments were a critique of her technique.  It requires endless hours of practice to develop and maintain, something that most students do not have and most would become frustrated at their poor advancement that they eventually give up.  Why chop down trees with a spork when you have a chainsaw?

I don't understand how you can so naturally jump to conclusions based on a performer's physical proportions. You cannot attribute large forearms as just being a product of poor technique, it may be because of genetics that her forearms accrue muscle faster than others, or the fact that she plays so much challenging romantic repertoire that muscle growth is inevitable. By your logic, Martha Argerich must have the worst technique ever. Also, you do realize that most male pianists are suited up in long sleeved jackets, meaning that your assumption misses out on a significant chunk of the population.  

[brogers70]

My ideas require no defense on my part since I'm perfectly able to do them.  However, on your part, it requires the effort to try them out at the piano and see for yourself.  I do not keep anything I do at the piano a secret and I write about it freely.

Of course you are under no obligation to defend anything. Nonetheless, if you posted a video of yourself playing, say Chopin 10/4, or some other piece you consider not too difficult, you would certainly help your credibility. As an innocent, amateur bystander, I pay more attention to pronouncements on technique by folks who have posted their own impressive performances in the audition room.

[faulty_damper]

I don't understand how you can so naturally jump to conclusions based on a performer's physical proportions. You cannot attribute large forearms as just being a product of poor technique, it may be because of genetics that her forearms accrue muscle faster than others, or the fact that she plays so much challenging romantic repertoire that muscle growth is inevitable. By your logic, Martha Argerich must have the worst technique ever. Also, you do realize that most male pianists are suited up in long sleeved jackets, meaning that your assumption misses out on a significant chunk of the population.

It's rare for people to have such developed forearm muscles unless they engage in an activity that utilizes them extensively, such as rock climbing.  As I mentioned earlier, I also had extensive forearm muscles that it hung down like it does Lisitsa's, though they were actually much larger and looked kind of flabby.  However, my forearm muscles no longer hang down and I am of a higher fat percentage than years before.  The decline in muscles were a direct result of learning how to use the entire body to play instead of relying solely on fingers.  As a result of this understanding, I can quickly conclude certain aspects of technique a pianist uses simply by looking at the size of their forearms.  There are other details I can identify but I'll save that for another day.

Argerich doesn't have the kind of technique that I consider superb, but she's not the only one.  The overwhelming majority of concert/competition pianists use force instead of finesse which requires endless hours of practice.  Wang's forearm muscles are also bigger than mine.  As for those who wear long sleeves, you can deduce the size of their forearms based on how their fingers move. Over-relyance on the fingers to depress the keys is a sure indicator that they've built up their muscles, a sign that they have poor technique in my opinion regardless of how well they sound.

Of course you are under no obligation to defend anything. Nonetheless, if you posted a video of yourself playing, say Chopin 10/4, or some other piece you consider not too difficult, you would certainly help your credibility. As an innocent, amateur bystander, I pay more attention to pronouncements on technique by folks who have posted their own impressive performances in the audition room.

The kind of thinking you have is a very common fallacy.  There are members on this forum with far larger repertoire than I, however, I would not take technical advice from them because their understanding of technique is limited as well as their technique.  Again, you can have bad technique and still sound good because you have a good ear.  But a good ear can't make up for bad technique in all cases.  At some point, that technique will limit musical expression because it's just too difficult to create the desired sound, like chopping trees with a spork.  It's possible that you'll eventually be able to go home and start a fire, but you'll need to go through a couple hundred plastic utensils in the process.

If you are patient and have the time and energy to do so, by all means, go ahead and chop down a forest with a spork.

[faulty_damper]

Another thing that should be mentioned is that performers don't often get asked if they have problems with their technique or pain.  I suspect that a large number of them experience regular pain.  Argerich has said this, Wang had to cancel concerts because of it, and numerous others.

This is a video of Dororthy Taubman teaching.  I don't know how much she practices or plays, but her forearms are the smallest of all the pianists in the video.  You'll notice that every other pianist in the video has large forearm muscles including Golandsky, who, ironically, has bad technique.

[theholygideons]

As I mentioned earlier, I also had extensive forearm muscles that it hung down like it does Lisitsa's, though they were actually much larger and looked kind of flabby.  However, my forearm muscles no longer hang down...

good to know you stopped wanking.

[outin]

It's rare for people to have such developed forearm muscles unless they engage in an activity that utilizes them extensively, such as rock climbing.  

Her forearm muscles do not seem THAT pronounced to me even when I compare to many non-pianists. You are maybe comparing her with women who have a different body type.

I've always had dinstinct forearm muscles and disctinct calf muscles and for decades I neither played the piano nor engaged in any activity resembling fitness training, it was all from genes  

[kevin69]

It's incorrect to assume that if you sound good, you must also play good.  In factuality, you can sound good with a lot of practice with a poor technique because you have good musicianship.

I had previously considered the quality of sound to be the measure of someones technique.
If sounding good is not a measure of having good technique, then what is?
And if sounding good is possible without having good technique, then is it worth having good technique at all?
Perhaps its easier and simpler to practice at lot rather than putting in the extra effort in required to acquire a good technique?

I want to sound good when i play.
I had seen acquiring a good techique as a goal along a path to producing a good sound.
Now you say that having a good technique won't make me sound good, and i can sound good without good technique if i practice instead.
This seems very confusing.
What is it that i'm practicing if its not improving technique?

[gyzzzmo]

Playing the piano is typically something you're not supposed to get big muscles from. I dont know how you're playing the piano, but when i'm doing it i do many light repetitions. If you have the idea you do few heavy repetitions (something that builds muscle tissue), you got an answer what is causing you -not- to have the technique like the lady with the big (?) arms.

[hardy_practice]

It's incorrect to assume that if you sound good, you must also play good.  In factuality, you can sound good with a lot of practice with a poor technique because you have good musicianship. Likewise, you can sound bad with a good technique, though this is an issue of poor musicianship.  

I agree with this, though I don't agree with anything else the poster says.  The imagination can reproduce the sound of good technique - to an extent, though in reality the 'flow' isn't quite there.

[hardy_practice]

Playing the piano is typically something you're not supposed to get big muscles from.

That's an urban myth.  Try tackling some heavy action Steinway!

[gyzzzmo]

That's an urban myth.  Try tackling some heavy action Steinway!

Wich is indeed relatively heavy for piano action, but not for muscle action. That people usually get problems with pieces like a chopin etude op 10/2 is muscle fatigue; the muscles cant handle the repetitions properly wich isnt something that gets solved by building bigger muscles.

Maybe you should watch a marathon runner once, you ever noticed that they arent exactly bodybuilders either?

[hardy_practice]

You'd need to ask what does 'handle a repetition' mean physiologically speaking.

[gyzzzmo]

You'd need to ask what does 'handle a repetition' mean physiologically speaking.

Anaerobic vs aerobic metabolism. But ofcourse everything what i say is 'urban mythology' and incorrect and you're right. We all bow to your endless wisdom!

[hardy_practice]

That's an interesting speculation.  How does it fit with this?

However, as exercise intensity increases, the need for energy release eventually exceeds that which can be supplied by aerobic metabolism.  Our muscles simply need more reactions to support the energy demand. Therefore, anaerobic contribution to metabolism increases.  When this happens, we refer to this change in metabolism as a metabolic threshold.  This metabolic threshold represents the exercise intensity where we start to produce those waste products of anaerobic metabolism that can eventually lead to fatigue.  You see this all the time when watching endurance Olympic events, such as a long distance running race.  The athletes run at a pace that hovers around their metabolic threshold, and they can only afford to run faster than this pace near the end of the race.  If they increase their pace too early in the race, then they fatigue too early and need to slow down to below their metabolic threshold to recover from the fatigue inducing waste products.  This would result in poor performance.

I don't see that you have the choice in piano performance, though I can see leaving more demanding pieces to the end of the programme is more sensible - that's just common sense though?

[brogers70]

The kind of thinking you have is a very common fallacy. 

Ah yes, the old fallacy of thinking that results matter. It's such a common fallacy, though. If you'd just post a couple of great performances by yourself, you could get through to all the many people afflicted by that fallacy. What can it cost you? It needn't be a huge repertoire, just a couple of effective illustrations of your non-spork technique.

[gyzzzmo]

That's an interesting speculation.  How does it fit with this?I don't see that you have the choice in piano performance, though I can see leaving more demanding pieces to the end of the programme is more sensible - that's just common sense though?

That would be common sense if performing a piano program would be comparable with running a marathon, wich it isnt. In a piano program you can (if needed) put some lower demanding pieces before a more difficult one. I dont see a marathon runner sit on a bench halfway if he wants to.

Please if you start talking about common sense, use it yourself first if you're replying on a forum like this. I'm not going to keep trying to explain things to you, just because you refuse to think over things for yourself.

Thanks in advance

[hardy_practice]

Maybe you should watch a marathon runner once, you ever noticed that they arent exactly bodybuilders either?

Pardon me, but wasn't it you who suggested marathon runners as an example?  Quite what the rudeness is about is beyond me.

[nyiregyhazi]

Pardon me, but wasn't it you who suggested marathon runners as an example?  Quite what the rudeness is about is beyond me.

There's no contradiction. He used marathon runners to illustrate that well trained muscles are not necessarily large. That does not mean he considers all aspects to be similar and neither does it invalidate the right to point out that piano allows plenty of rest periods due to not being a competitive race.

[hardy_practice]

There's some weird logic that escapes me here.  'Anaerobic vs aerobic metabolism' appears to be the answer to how marathon runners and pianists 'handle a repetition' without 'much muscle action'.  That's not been explained.

[dima_76557]

Piano playing doesn't help to get huge forearms. A better recipe:

https://postimg.org/image/qhurxf20b/

Proof:

https://postimg.org/image/yajqcn9hv/

[marik1]

That would be common sense if performing a piano program would be comparable with running a marathon, wich it isnt.

Indeed, performing a program is rather a mental process, than a physical task. In fact, technique (at least most of its aspects) is in ones head, rather than hands.

Best, M  

[marik1]

Ah yes, the old fallacy of thinking that results matter. It's such a common fallacy, though. If you'd just post a couple of great performances by yourself, you could get through to all the many people afflicted by that fallacy. What can it cost you? It needn't be a huge repertoire, just a couple of effective illustrations of your non-spork technique.

I would not hold my breath. You see, this particular individual builds his "credibility" on trashing. He trashes everybody--Wang, Kholodenko, Pletnev, Argerich, Rachmaninov (!!!), Russian school, you name it... It is like in life--the worst of professional you are--the more you trash others. Subconsciously this helps to maintain your self-esteem and makes you feel good.

Please note, that particular individual never brings any at least remotely valid evidence to support any of the "ideas", conveniently saying "my ideas require no defense".

Ironically, as an illustration of good technique that member brings a lesson of Taubmann...

To anybody who starts challenging that person, s/he immediately starts talking about "idiocy and ignorance" and personal attacking--what a proven tactics! To your request to post a recording (any recording)--starts talking about breadth of repertoire  . One can immediately see--that person speaks of music and technique as an amateur, with very little knowledge as for what technique is*.

Having said that, I would love to get surprised...

Best, M

*Isn't it telling:

All technique originates in the Art of Touch and returns to it
F. Liszt

I never trust any pianist whose forearms are bigger than mine as it indicates muscle-building, a sure indicator of poor technique.
Faulty_Damper