Microphones to Zoom or similar

[pianoman53]

Hi,

I recently got some extra money from concerts and teaching, so I thought that I could try to save up to a pair of microphones.

I already have a Roland R09 HR, and my girlfriend uses one from Zoom.

Do you have any advice on microphones that can be connected to any of those two (or a laptop, obviously) to create a better sound?
I'm completely green on this subject, and would really appreciate some help.


Thanks

[johnmar78]

easy fix, buy youself a tascam dr100 cam recorder with 2XLR scokets for 2 BIG external microphones that is plugged into your recorder. Total cost around 1000$ US dollars, you can afford it. The recording quality is 10X better than any pocket recorders.

[flashyfingers]

A better pair of microphones, for recording piano? I would go with condenser microphones, a stereo pair. Or mix and match two microphones that have the same type of directional input. There is also a piano recording microphone kit, such as this: https://www.earthworksaudio.com/microphones/pianomic-series-2/

earthworks stereo pairs or any of their mics are really neat. But that is my personal opinion!

Also, as far as a nice pair of condenser microphones go, you will need phantom power. Yes, the zoom has that option but I would avoid using anything that uses a power adapter, just to play it safe. (I would invest in a really nice preamp..few channels, perhaps tube?...that's a home studio, right there!) also consider the outputs of the preamp option. Does it have stereo or mono outputs, or both? I am not sure if the zoom XLR input will link the two inputs as a stereo track. Just check out a few preamps (or make sure to seek information on the quality of the pre that is in a USB interface). So as far as plugging it into your computer goes, that will be based on what the outputs from the pre are, because you will have to go through a digital conversion, for your computer. They are either mic or xlr line, so you would need a usb interface that can support a preamp's dynamics, or if no pre, you want something that leaves plenty of head room for your mic's dynamic range. Your zoom will not do this.


They have very compact (higher quality) interfaces, such as Apogee. I hear great things about this stuff.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Duet2iOS/

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Quartet/

BTW the apogee has phantom power/mic preamps, but again. It is from a USB port. This is why I explained the option of using a preamp for condenser mics, then outputting to your portable USB interface, such as the apogee.

Oh yeah, all this is if you are recording to a computer device. I just dont recommend buying nice mics just to continue using the zoom. The zoom's mics are as good as it gets on such a device.

I would ask a professional about whether an individual mic pre is necessary or if a nice usb interface such as the Apogee has sufficient enough preamps. It is 192khz/24 bit! Seems like a decent enough option to pair with a couple of sexy mics.


So, overview:
decide what type of array you want, as far as microphones go
check out their specs of DYNAMIC RANGE, POWER, POLAR PATTERN, ETC
decide if you need USB interface, independent mic preamp, or both
check out their specs as far as functionable dynamics go
buy your toys and warranty.  

[flashyfingers]

Also, as far as the audio quality of 24 bit/192 kHz goes, it isnt just for high quality audio conversion. Once your audio is assigned to a track and ready for digital processing, you can process it without losing clarity, much more extensively. (Of course, if your plug-in is 24 bit or whatever. lol I'm not sure I remember everything from audio school...) Not sure if you would need that much flexibility, but yeah. that's what it's for.

But most of the higher-end gear is going to be high bit/high sample rate. Your zoom will just convert all that functionality back to...96khz or less...which is actually not that bad. But still. DON'T TRUST THEIR PREAMP!!! (to say the least...hahah)

I KNOW I RAMBLED ALOT, BUT THE POINT IS, DONT WASTE YOUR MONEY ON ALL THAT SEXY SAMPLE RATE/DYNAMIC RANGE/FREQUENCY RESPONCE, IF YOU'RE NOT GONNA USE IT.



PSSSST https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/C214/ST/ and I'm sure you could find a better deal, too.

[quantum]

I think we should clarify some things here.  Zoom makes several products: the H4n and H6 have XLR inputs with phantom power.  The H2n and H1 do not have XLR input. 

There is also something called plug-in powered mics.  They use 1/8" stereo jacks and do not need phantom power.  H1, H2n, H4n, and H6 all support plug-in power mics.  These mics are generally inexpensive and can provide input comparable to the Zoom built in mics. 

The advantage of going with the studio standard XLR inputs is that you have the option of upgrading your gear at a later date when you gain more studio skills, and still maintain connectivity between devices. 


So in general you have these components with the signal chain following in this order:
Microphone > Preamp > A/D converter

The question then becomes where to spend your money.  When starting out, devices like the Zoom combine all three into one unit, which greatly simplifies the process for non-technical users.  However, if one wants to gain quality in the captured sound, one will need to start looking at the separate components.  Going a step up, one may start considering combined Preamp / A/D converter units - commonly referred as "USB interfaces" or "Firewire interfaces" and the like. 

Now there is debate whether a cheap mic + good preamp versus good mic + cheap preamp would give the better value.  I'd say, let your ears decide. 

Back to your question, which mics to get?   What music are you intending on recording? 

[flashyfingers]

Now there is debate whether a cheap mic + good preamp versus good mic + cheap preamp would give the better value.  I'd say, let your ears decide.  

Back to your question, which mics to get?   What music are you intending on recording?  

I think that was an excellent way of organizing the facts, quantum! I like that you clarified signal flow!

to add on to any pending responses to your question, I would think that cheap mic/good preamp is what I would go with. This is because, microphones have basic function-convert acoustic sound to an electric signal. This simple function is then to be translated into an audio signal, and with a USB interface, a digital signal, then back to analog. The complexity happens when you go from one medium to another, and I would say that acoustic to electronic (analog) is complicated (when we are talking audio, and not merely concentrated energy with no purpose). Analog to digital is even more complicated, if we then try to think about acoustics, where completely different mathematics are applicable, when we begin to talk about dynamic range. This analog to digital issue is exactly why I believe the USB interface with a nice preamp (ask about different preamps, we will tell you!) will make the world of difference with a decent mic (anywhere under 500 dollar mics, even.) Trust me, you want the dynamic range and the low signal to noise ratio. Chances are, when you turn up your mic level on the zoom, you get more noise and less dynamic range, which leaves you no headroom. 

if you want better quality, just switch from the zoom to something less commercial (if that is the word I am looking for...)

[pianoman53]

With risk to get my comment shared in the "Stupid things people say"-thread:

So there is no way to just connect a microphone to a computer, or a standard recording device, and still get a good dynamic range, as little noise as possible and clear passages in fast tempo?

I don't need a professional recording studio in my apartment.
I will only record my own playing, and just want to be able to listen back, and hear how it actually sounded (more or less).
Is that going to cost me a smaller fortune (still student, ye..)

[flashyfingers]

With risk to get my comment shared in the "Stupid things people say"-thread:

So there is no way to just connect a microphone to a computer, or a standard recording device, and still get a good dynamic range, as little noise as possible and clear passages in fast tempo?

I don't need a professional recording studio in my apartment.
I will only record my own playing, and just want to be able to listen back, and hear how it actually sounded (more or less).
Is that going to cost me a smaller fortune (still student, ye..)

blue microphones-yeti
or similar

There are USB microphones and they are not as expensive and definitely a good option!

Also, my apologies. I really like rambling about this stuff, almost as much as I love rambling about piano! It is my soft spot and I really enjoyed talking about recording! Thanks and good luck. If you have other questions, let me know! I will post a link to a few USB microphones in a moment.

[flashyfingers]

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/C01USBPak/

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Yeti/

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PG42USB/

[flashyfingers]

but if you have a baby grand or a grand piano at home, and you are always recording there, think about eventually investing in a stereo PAIR of microphones. You were talking about getting clearer recordings on fast passages. A spaced pair array (one of many recording microphone configurations) will give you a fuller image. The zoom has XY pattern but the phase difference between the two individual microphones still makes it less ideal for a piano recording. That's another long story. I do think that a USB microphone will help in terms of more true piano recordings. Then, your step-up option is the USB interface and a pair of microphones.

I used to have a laptop and a USB Mbox they call them, and a blue-bluebird mic. These are student items. They definitely do the trick, as far as the usb interface option goes. But again. The USB microphone option is half the cost.

Just make sure to have a software. Then, you would send the USB microphone output to a track with a limiter or a compressor on it (to make sure you do not distort your sound, keep your dynamic range in check...), just have the microphone on and press record and you should have a perfectly functionable tracking setup.

I rambled again, I know! I'm so sorry! 

[pianoman53]

okay, thanks

I've looked into one of the usb, and decided to buy it.

[quantum]

Even when looking for starter gear, I think it is important to consider the characteristics of some of the high-end mics (similar to the case when shopping for pianos).  Also following that, to read into some of the discussion regarding such mics.  You may not understand a lot of the jargon terms at first, but it will give you an idea of what experienced ears do look for when considering mics.  In turn, you would be better informed to pick out those desirable characteristics in a mic that appeal to you. 

Here's an example, listen to the samples in the link and follow the discussion:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-shoot-outs-sound-file-comparisons-audio-tests/621029-omni-sdc-piano-dpa-earthworks-josephson-sanken-schoeps-studio-projects.html

The Studio Projects C4 might be in your budget.  They cost less then the often mentioned Rode NT5. 

[quantum]

I really like rambling about this stuff, almost as much as I love rambling about piano! It is my soft spot and I really enjoyed talking about recording!

Actually, I think this kind of discussion is good.  So please continue sharing what you know.  Every so often a recording question pops up on the forums.  Years ago, when I joined PS there were some very knowledgeable people discussing recording in detail in here.  Unfortunately they are not active so much.

[timothy42b]

:

So there is no way to just connect a microphone to a computer, or a standard recording device, and still get a good dynamic range, as little noise as possible and clear passages in fast tempo?

I use a Zoom H2 but I record directly from it onto my laptop running Audacity.

It isn't studio quality but it tells me everything i need to know about my playing.  (As well as some things I'd rather NOT know about my playing)  The advantage of the laptop instead of recording onto the Zoom is that I can do instant playback, save, normalize, email, etc. 

[flashyfingers]

okay, thanks

I've looked into one of the usb, and decided to buy it.

cool!! Make sure to see about the length of the connector cable, and see about getting the length that you need. Also, make sure this USB microphone will work well in your workspace. What I mean is, do you have a laptop or a desktop?

I dont see the USB cable as flexible in longer distances between computer and piano, and the desktop would definitely be more noisy than a laptop, when next to a microphone.

Also, make sure to mute the speakers when recording. You don't want that horrible feedback loop.

[marik1]

Remember that your recording will be only as good as:
1 Your room
2 Your instrument
3 Your microphone position
The microphone quality will probably the last in that list.

I'd highly discourage from using USB microphones. They are good for podcast or Skype conversations, but due to some technical issues of the medium they do not have a quality or dynamic range needed to record piano music even in the living room.

The most natural sound for piano would give you whether SDC omni pressure mics, or ribbons. If you make recordings in your living room I'd consider some room acoustical treatment. You do not want to dampen your room, but just want to control so it doesn't ring. Assuming you have XLR connectors and phantom power I'd suggest a pair of Studio Project C4, which are probably the best compromise between budget, quality and versatility. They come with two sets of capsules--omni and cardioid, which will give you great options to see what sounds best in your room. I would probably shop for an early model (no switches) and would not be afraid to get it second hand for very cheap. Even if there is something wrong with it Studio Projects have legendary customer support and probably will fix it for free or minimal fee.

Earthworks are good microphones, but being only 1/4" small diaphragm are too noisy for piano recordings.

Best, M

[flashyfingers]

@ marik1

if you are close-mic'ing the source (piano), you don't need to worry about the room. The closer the mic is to the piano, the less room you should get, and the more pure and true will be the sounds recorded. In which case, I would use bi-directional or uni-directional, but not omni, as the room is most likely in a residential facility, not a designated hall...

I dont know whether USB mics are dynamic or condenser (require phantom power), probably dynamic, not my favorite for recording piano.

[marik1]

@ marik1

if you are close-mic'ing the source (piano), you don't need to worry about the room. The closer the mic is to the piano, the less room you should get, and the more pure and true will be the sounds recorded. In which case, I would use bi-directional or uni-directional, but not omni, as the room is most likely in a residential facility, not a designated hall...

I dont know whether USB mics are dynamic or condenser (require phantom power), probably dynamic, not my favorite for recording piano.

Very often residential rooms could work surprisingly well for recordings, but of course, that depends on many factors: size, furniture, bookshelves, pictures on the walls, shape of the room, carpets, TV sets, curtains, etc. etc.

In general, unlike recording pop, or some Jazz, the only way to record classical is a distant microphone positioning. I always prefer to accept the problems and imperfections of the room, rather than stick the mic inside of the piano (after all, you never listen to piano with your head inside of it). That can be found only empirically and each room is different. If we are talking about the main contributor to the final sound then microphone positioning would be on the first place. That's why very often experienced engineers take at least a few hours to find the microphone placement to suit the instrument, room, repertoire, and particular sound of the performer. That's the main reason why I suggested C4 with its cardioid and omni capsules--if the room is particularly bad and doesn't work with omnies, then cardioid capsules could do the trick.

BTW, bidirectional in a bad room works almost the same as omni. The difference is mainly in achieving stereo--i.e. whether you work with coincident (fig8), or spaced (omni) stereo techniques. For the omnies the baffles (like Jecklin disk) are extremely helpful and sound very natural for classical piano due to their very coherent separation up to very high frequencies. Also, if the room is bad then still omnies could work very nicely with 1.7 distance rule. In any case, unlike cardioid, omni is a native pattern and its diaphragm is tuned into high frequency, so it works in a stiffness control manner (vs. resistance controlled cardioid), so it will always sound much more natural. The main problem is that people do not really know how to use omnies...

As for the USB mics, most of them use electret capsules (modern ones are with pre-polaraized backplate). The main issue with them is a gain control (or rather lack of it) which results in very limited dynamic range and high distortions.

Best, M

[flashyfingers]

When I record my piano, I use super-cardioid microphones. That should work for your source and your room. I recommend the AKG 414, which has a multi-pattern functioning diaphragm. I have never heard the Earthworks QTC microphones referred to as noisy. In fact, they are flat response microphones, used in room analysis and the like...

[flashyfingers]

spam

[marik1]

It seems the AKG are way out of budget of OP.

The 414 are quite popular for piano recording, though for classical music I greatly prefer small diaphragm mics, as they are much more precise, have flatter frequency response, and are less colored due to different resonant modes behavior. Generally, large diaphragm microphones have much more pronounced resonant peak on top. Since most of them are double sided (so called Braunmuhl--Weber design) the polar pattern becomes weird on low frequencies, where it turns into omni. BTW, unlike omni in SDC (small diaphragm condenser) microphones which mostly have a native pattern (i.e. true pressure operation), the omni in LDC is a mathematical sum of two cardioid sides in phase (the fig8 is a sum of sides connected out of phase).

As for Earthworks, they use small and cheap (less than $1 when you buy them in quantities) Panasonic WM61 electret capsules selected for consistency. All the rest of the price is fee for the selection, stainless steel body, and branding. When calibrated those capsules are fine for general acoustic measurements, but of course, nothing close to something like B&K 4033, or Gefell MK202 (which BTW, are outstanding for music recording) usually used in professional measurements.

Best, M

[flashyfingers]

It seems the AKG are way out of budget of OP.

The 414 are quite popular for piano recording, though for classical music I greatly prefer small diaphragm mics, as they are much more precise, have flatter frequency response, and are less colored due to different resonant modes behavior. Generally, large diaphragm microphones have much more pronounced resonant peak on top. Since most of them are double sided (so called Braunmuhl--Weber design) the polar pattern becomes weird on low frequencies, where it turns into omni. BTW, unlike omni in SDC (small diaphragm condenser) microphones which mostly have a native pattern (i.e. true pressure operation), the omni in LDC is a mathematical sum of two cardioid sides in phase (the fig8 is a sum of sides connected out of phase).

As for Earthworks, they use small and cheap (less than $1 when you buy them in quantities) Panasonic WM61 electret capsules selected for consistency. All the rest of the price is fee for the selection, stainless steel body, and branding. When calibrated those capsules are fine for general acoustic measurements, but of course, nothing close to something like B&K 4033, or Gefell MK202 (which BTW, are outstanding for music recording) usually used in professional measurements.

Best, M

+1 and OMG gefell <3

I suggest saving up for something AMAZING. The AKG aren't what they used to be, anyways.

I Really like a tube Neumann...

But, yes. Small diaphragm mics are pretty legit. I have a Sterling small diaphragm condenser that I use with a professional tascam field recorder. Does the job.

[marik1]

The AKG aren't what they used to be, anyways.

The earliest versions 414E and 414EB were wonderful. Both had an original 'brass ring' CK12 capsules (used in iconic C12 and ElaM 251--in a mint condition could easily fetch $25K if you could find one) which by itself shaped the sonics of the mics. The circuit was transformer coupled and pretty simple and elegant--4 transistors did the job.

In the later production version of the EB the brass ring CK12 was replaced with much cheaper to manufacture 'Teflon' version of CK12, which did not even remotely have the magic of original one.    

The next version was 414B ULS, which already had 17 (!!!) transistors. Complicated schematics had a deep loop of negative feedback, which adversely affected the sonics even further.

Next version was 414B TL (transformerless). Even drier and clinical.

414B TLII. The attempt was made to recreate the sound of original brass ring CK12, so the new 0009 revision of the Teflon CK12 was made to bring the capsule from simplistic 4 chamber design of the 0002 revision back to 5 chamber of brass ring one. Unfortunately, by that time the electronics were way (and unnecessary) too complicated, had a massive amount of feedback, transformerless design, so even improved capsule did not help much. All the subsequent versions: XLS, XLII and variants, while had some improvements in one or another parameter, still did not have an ounce of magic of the good, old, and simple EB version.

The one you posted link is already made in China, which is a whole can of different worms...

I Really like a tube Neumann...

The best tube Neumann to look for piano are KM56, or SM2 (stereo version). Those used Nickel KK56 capsules, which are wonderfully suit piano--a rare example of medium size Braunmuhl-Weber design, I mentioned above. The main problem, those mics are built around AC701 tubes, which after 'whoknowshowmanyhoursonthem' can go very fast, so expect to pay for servicing alone at least $1000 a pop. Besides, heavy and bulky PSU, unreliable, hard to use on locations... Good for multigrammyawardsuperduperstuios with unlimited budget and techs on site standing by, not us, mere mortals...

Best, M

[flashyfingers]

Excellent review! Thanks a ton for writing about the AKG.

As far as the Neumann comment, I did not mean that I like the tube Neumann for a clean, perfectly true sound. I like the TLMs and cheaper Neumann mics. They sound excellent, but are not exactly Jay-Z's studio...hey JZ mics. What do you think about them?

https://usashop.jzmic.com/collections/bt-series

violet design Mics are very dark sounding. I like that, too.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Violet-Microphones-Black-Finger-Condenser-Mic-We-Are-Westlake-Pro-/231210219010?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Microphones&hash=item35d533f602

[marik1]

Jay-Z's studio...hey JZ mics. What do you think about them?

https://usashop.jzmic.com/collections/bt-series

violet design Mics are very dark sounding. I like that, too.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Violet-Microphones-Black-Finger-Condenser-Mic-We-Are-Westlake-Pro-/231210219010?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Microphones&hash=item35d533f602

Really depends on your application. Generally, darker mics are not the best for piano, unless you have a very bright specific instrument you'd like to record.

The history behind JZ and Violet is Juris Zarins (owner) was a jewelry maker and contractor for Blue (at the time owned by Martins Saulespurens and Skipper Wise). During years of production Zarins learnt a lot of trade secrets and finally span off, violating intellectual property and non compete agreements, followed by years of court settlements and throwing dirt at Blue.

The bottom line is, while Zarins makes visually cool designs he is not a professional engineer. If anything, I cannot recommend his products, just for that reason alone, but leaving it apart, for the money you can get by far superior microphones. If you are looking for darker ones then Oktava 012 comes to mind, first.  

Best, M