When picking a teacher, is it okay to ask them to play for you?

[pianoman53]

Then there are people like Igor Roma, who can play anything he wants. I was on a masterclass with him, and I can't really say that I was very much into his teaching. It was a lot "Do this, just like I do.". And then there is Bashkirov. He has probably produced more succesfull (and all of them sounds so different!) pianists than anyone else. Yet,  on another masterclass, he was playing a Chopin waltz, and he could barely play a chromatic scale evenly anymore.

Ofc there are these "exceptions", though, there are more excetions than rules in this case...

A teachers way of playing has very little to do with how they teach.

[louispodesta]

Then there are people like Igor Roma, who can play anything he wants. I was on a masterclass with him, and I can't really say that I was very much into his teaching. It was a lot "Do this, just like I do.". And then there is Bashkirov. He has probably produced more succesfull (and all of them sounds so different!) pianists than anyone else. Yet,  on another masterclass, he was playing a Chopin waltz, and he could barely play a chromatic scale evenly anymore.

Ofc there are these "exceptions", though, there are more excetions than rules in this case...

A teachers way of playing has very little to do with how they teach.

Yes, it does!

One of the universal rules of teaching ANYTHING is that you stay one step ahead of the student.   Does that mean that you have had a piano teacher who bluffed their way through a lesson?:  Duh!!

The whole point, overall of my video, is that piano performance is not some mythical experience.  It is not much more than that.  It is a set of mechanics, some of which are purely technical, and some of which you absolutely should determine for yourselves.

[lazyfingers]

I suppose this question is rather situational, and much depends on one's level and aims.

My personal experience so far agrees with Dima. My last 2 teachers were concert pianists, both of whom I have never heard play before lessons began. In my situation, it was more an audition for them to decide to take me as a student rather than an audition to see whether I would accept them as teacher. I wouldn't even have contemplated asking them to play for me.

My second teacher actually has bad arthritis of the fingers and can only play snippets but the occasional glimpses she affords me is sufficient for me.

Those who don't need students often don't need students because they are much sought after, and hence don't need to "audition" for the job.

[Bob]

I could see the virtuoso college prof type of teacher getting really ticked off about being asked to play something, if it were obvious why you were asking. 

Or if they were an insecure teacher.  I could see one reading more into the question or any question about their performing. 

I'm wondering if there's a way to ask about their performing, if they have a CD out, what they're working on, etc. Just some way to make it sound like small talk instead of "Play something for me so I know you can play."

For the old grumpy prof type of teacher, I could see them questioning why you don't already know their playing, why you haven't heard their performance/CD... and them wondering why you want to take lessons with them in that case. 


I suppose another way of looking at it -- Who cares?  If you're making progress great.  Depending on the situation, you could give them a try for six months and then drop them if you wanted.  Beyond their performing and their students' performing, how you perform and improve is really what you're interested in.

[outin]

Ofc there are these "exceptions", though, there are more excetions than rules in this case...

It's also quite possible that many teachers have gained their reputation more by their talent to pick the right students, give them the right advice and motivate them to success than because of their great TEACHING skills...and it should be clear that with advanced students the rules are completely different than with teaching adult amateurs or beginners. A successful concert pianists is often not the best person for that. They are long past the struggles of the early years and may not know how to teach the basics at all. If the teacher cannot even demostrate effortless comfortable technique and solid sound, how is the student supposed to understand what they are aiming for? Words can only get you so far...

Also how motivational is it for a beginning student if the teacher thinks playing the piano is SO difficult that even as professional teacher they cannot do it when requested? If there's no piece or part of it memorized and no easy scores to sight read, one could even play some scales or arpeggios or improvise. I would just want to see how the teacher relates to the piano and what kind of a sound he can achieve, not judge a performance. 

It almost feels like some people are eager to justify for less competent teachers. I guess it's just as fine to be a first grade math teacher who cannot multiply or an art teacher who cannot draw  

[dima_76557]

piano performance is not some mythical experience.

I think that at a certain level (where there is no longer a division between technique and music), piano playing can indeed become a mythical experience, something sacred, because music can express things that go beyond words. I can easily imagine that some pianists, violinists, singers, etc. at a certain level may find the undertone of the request "Show me what you've got" in the context the OP gave us border on prostitution.

[outin]

I think that at a certain level (where there is no longer a division between technique and music), piano playing can indeed become a mythical experience because music can express things that go beyond words. I can easily imagine that some pianists, violinists, singers, etc. at a certain level may find the undertone of the request "Show me what you've got" in the context the OP gave us border on prostitution.

Maybe so, but IMO they should then not offer teaching service to general public.

[j_menz]

I can easily imagine that some pianists, violinists, singers, etc. at a certain level may find the undertone of the request "Show me what you've got" in the context the OP gave us border on prostitution.

Doesn't all art-for-money border on prostitution anyway?

[dima_76557]

Maybe so, but IMO they should then not offer teaching service to general public.

Why is that? Teaching and performing, as we have seen, are different trades.

[dima_76557]

Doesn't all art-for-money border on prostitution anyway?

I think that depends mostly on the audience's expectations and intentions. If they come to a concert and expect circus tricks, then yes. If they are genuinely interested in what the artist has to say, then no.

[outin]

Why is that? Teaching and performing, as we have seen, are different trades.

Because we are not discussing PERFORMANCE, just whether the potential student has the right to see/hear the potential teacher PLAY THE PIANO and whether the teacher should be able to do it or not.

And with general public I meant others than those looking to be great artists on the piano and those who already have all the basic skills to make art on the piano.

[dima_76557]

Because we are not discussing PERFORMANCE

That's why I said before: "Show me how you teach" would be a genuine request. "Show me how you perform" may be the wrong request in this context (at a first meeting).

[outin]

That's why I said before: "Show me how you teach" would be a genuine request. "Show me how you perform" may the wrong request in this context (at a first meeting).

If you really cannot see the difference between a performance and a demonstration of playing the piano, this discussion is useless.

Most people will not be able to judge if the teaching method is effective or not after one lesson either.

[dima_76557]

If you really cannot see the difference between a performance and a demonstration of playing the piano, this discussion is useless.

The context in which "a demonstration of playing the piano" is appropriate has been mentioned more than once. All I am saying is: this kind of requests should NOT be made at a first meeting when lessons haven't even started. It must be clear that if the teacher is a bar pianist (where such requests are all in the game every day), the teacher will be glad to deliver. With serious classical performing artists, you may touch a painful spot.

[outin]

With serious classical performing artists, you may touch a painful spot.

I got that but it's just my opinion that a teacher openly offering his services should be able to handle such things, regardless of how they may feel. And I think it's quite clear that most people are not looking for a serious performing classical artist, just a good teacher. I sometimes think that those who cannot make a full living as performers feel it's ok to make extra by teaching even if they have no idea what teaching actually requires or the skills needed.

And times are changing, the "art world" requirements are getting closer to the requirements of the "business world" and the over sensitive types will have a hard time making it.

[dima_76557]

I got that but it's just my opinion that a teacher openly offering his services should be able to handle such things, regardless of how they may feel.

And times are changing, the "art world" requirements are getting closer to the requirements of the "business world" and the over sensitive types will have a hard time making it.

An analogy. No matter how times are changing, I won't ask a girl for intimacy at the very first date, ever. Playing, demonstrating, etc. may be very intimate for some, and the circumstances have to be just right to share any of it with unknown third parties.

With a potential teacher, at a first meeting, I would never go further than "Do you concertize?", "Do you have any recordings?", "Where can I hear you?", etc. This leaves the other person space to decide what that may mean. If the answer is "no", then I'll just accept that, and draw conclusions from what happens within the teacher-student relationship.

[j_menz]

With serious classical performing artists...

...Playing, demonstrating, etc. may be very intimate for some, and the circumstances have to be just right to share any of it with unknown third parties.

Payment of large sums of money?

[dima_76557]

Payment of large sums of money?

I know some very capable people who don't care about that, really. There are also known cases of some very great people who were notorious for cancelling concerts, even if the stakes were very high.

[j_menz]

There are also known cases of some very great people who were notorious for cancelling concerts, even if the stakes were very high.

The most notorious of these, Gould, probably had the foreknowledge of how savage the reviews would be, one of his alter egos being the intended author thereof.

[dima_76557]

The most notorious of these, Gould, probably had the foreknowledge of how savage the reviews would be, one of his alter egos being the intended author thereof.

Actually, I was thinking about Michelangeli, Richter, and such. They were literally infected with music. I don't think they cared very much for either money or reviews.
P.S.: When I look around here in Moscow with all those potential crème-de-la-crème performers trying to make a future with their art, I can only conclude that you *have to* be ill with the music to survive and sustain all that mental pressure. No wonder that a request to "play something" for testing purposes and at the wrong time may trigger fury within.

[outin]

With a potential teacher, at a first meeting, I would never go further than "Do you concertize?", "Do you have any recordings?", "Where can I hear you?", etc.

What a different mindset we have
Those questions seem much more demanding to me than just to be asked to play a little. A teacher who does not do those things certainly may feel inadequate...

[dima_76557]

What a different mindset we have
Those questions seem much more demanding to me than just to be asked to play a little. A teacher who does not do those things certainly may feel inadequate...

If they think that you are genuinely interested in what they have to say at the instrument, it may very well be the right incentive for them to ask you if you want to hear something, or to simply start playing without you asking them. The trick is: you have to break the ice first.

[theholygideons]

What a different mindset we have
Those questions seem much more demanding to me than just to be asked to play a little. A teacher who does not do those things certainly may feel inadequate...

I'm sure Martin Canin wouldn't mind playing something if you asked him.

[outin]

I'm sure Martin Canin wouldn't mind playing something if you asked him.

I have no idea who that is...

[pianoman53]

Uuuugh....

Okay, if you feel great enough to actually be able to judge everything (since you have such a great ear), just go ahead and ask! maybe you could even give them some advice!

[outin]

Uuuugh....

Okay, if you feel great enough to actually be able to judge everything (since you have such a great ear), just go ahead and ask! maybe you could even give them some advice!

A bit immature attitude there if you ask me... Maybe you should actually read my messages properly first and comment on their actual content.

[pianoman53]

Yeah, cause this discussion was really going somewhere..!

[outin]

Yeah, cause this discussion was really going somewhere..!

Thanks for your effort to make it right then! 

[pianoman53]

Clearly, you try even more!

I gave my thoughts on it, and you replied "My ears are good enough to judge". If you tell yourself that you will hear everything this teacher knows, just by hearing him play, then the discussion can just as well be over.

[outin]

I gave my thoughts on it, and you replied "My ears are good enough to judge".

No, I really don't think I did

If you tell yourself that you will hear everything this teacher knows, just by hearing him play,

No clue where you would get such a ridiculous idea 

But never mind, you have your thoughts and I have mine.

I just have to wonder...I have seen this discussed before and it seems to be a very sensitive subject to many...strange...

[timothy42b]

I think I could tell from a trial lesson whether I would be able to learn from a teacher, at least in terms of communication style and probably with how they assessed my level.

I don't think I could tell much about their teaching ability from hearing them play. 

That's just me, maybe you are more skilled.

[outin]

I think I could tell from a trial lesson whether I would be able to learn from a teacher, at least in terms of communication style and probably with how they assessed my level.

I don't think I could tell much about their teaching ability from hearing them play.  

That's just me, maybe you are more skilled.

There are at least 3 things here to discuss and they have been very much confused in this discussion:

1. Should a piano teacher be able to play the piano

2. Should they be willing to demonstrate their playing to a potential student

3. Is their ANY value in hearing AND seeing someone play the piano before deciding to take lessons from them

You refer to the 3rd.
I do not know how I could be more clear about this but I'll try one last time. In such a scenario I would not be listening for their TEACHING ABILITY. There are different ideas on how piano playing should sound and look. I have my own and I would much prefer taking lessons from someone who can present this. Note perfection or fast showy playing would not impress me that much. I just prefer not to take lessons from someone who plays in a way I don't like at all. If I don't want to be taught what they can do, their teaching skills would be secondary. I do not buy the idea of "do as I say, not as I do" at all. I would rather look further.

In my case I did not need to make such a request, but having the possibility to witness the two teachers play certainly helped me make the decision to switch. I have no doubt both can teach, just not the same things.

[dima_76557]

I just have to wonder...I have seen this discussed before and it seems to be a very sensitive subject to many...strange...

Please allow me to give my take on why it is such a sensitive subject.

For some, piano teachers are simply providers of this or that service. What they sell can be bought and thrown away, just like any other commodity. They have to prove this and that before the customer decides to buy their services.

For others, piano teachers are very special people (especially if they are also artists or have taught or retrained many others successfully) that have the key to a new dimension in life. Exceptional ability is assumed, but is not always the ability to just play pieces. Here, we are no longer talking about services, commodities, etc. because what you get is Lessons for Life of all kinds.

Hope this makes sense somehow.

[outin]

Please allow me to give my take on why it is such a sensitive subject.

For some, piano teachers are simply providers of this or that service. What they sell can be bought and thrown away, just like any other commodity. They have to prove this and that before the customer decides to buy their services.

For others, piano teachers are very special people (especially if they are also artists or have taught or retrained many others successfully) that have the key to a new dimension in life. Exceptional ability is assumed, but is not always the ability to just play. Here, we are no longer talking about services, commodities, etc. because what you get is Lessons for Life of all kinds.

Hope this makes sense somehow.

I understand, although it doesn't really make sense to me 
It's not black and white, there's a large grey area. Neither of the above describes how I think about piano teachers. I may generally be very pragmatic, but I also have some idealism left in me.

[dima_76557]

I understand, although it doesn't really make sense to me 
It's not black and white, there's a large grey area. Neither of the above describes how I think about piano teachers. I may generally be very pragmatic, but I also have some idealism left in me.

I never had any doubts about what you just said.

Do you believe that some teachers are so busy teaching that they don't even have the time to keep their own technique up to par? They would very likely fail your test miserably, although they can demonstrate the movements you need to play this or that piece successfully. You may very well miss a lot by simply picking the teacher that plays best!

[outin]

You may very well miss a lot by simply picking the teacher that plays best!

But who says I would?

Then again I have always had trouble deciding who's/what's the best anyway...often things are different, not necessarily good or bad...I am very much ruined by relativism

[thalbergmad]

Only a fool would buy a lemon without squeezing it.

I never had to ask my teacher to play. He was playing Liszt sonata whilst I was waiting for my 1st lesson. Good enough for me.

Thal

[pianoman53]

Only a fool would buy a lemon without squeezing it.

Only a fool would compare a lemon and a teacher...

[timothy42b]

Only a fool would compare a lemon and a teacher...

Squeezing a teacher will get you in trouble, I think.

[thalbergmad]

Only a fool would compare a lemon and a teacher...

I thought we had an unwritten agreement. You do not respond to my posts and i do not respond to yours. It is safer that way.

Understand??

Thal

[pianoplunker]

It's also quite possible that many teachers have gained their reputation more by their talent to pick the right students, give them the right advice and motivate them to success than because of their great TEACHING skills...and it should be clear that with advanced students the rules are completely different than with teaching adult amateurs or beginners. A successful concert pianists is often not the best person for that. They are long past the struggles of the early years and may not know how to teach the basics at all. If the teacher cannot even demostrate effortless comfortable technique and solid sound, how is the student supposed to understand what they are aiming for? Words can only get you so far...

Also how motivational is it for a beginning student if the teacher thinks playing the piano is SO difficult that even as professional teacher they cannot do it when requested? If there's no piece or part of it memorized and no easy scores to sight read, one could even play some scales or arpeggios or improvise. I would just want to see how the teacher relates to the piano and what kind of a sound he can achieve, not judge a performance. 

It almost feels like some people are eager to justify for less competent teachers. I guess it's just as fine to be a first grade math teacher who cannot multiply or an art teacher who cannot draw  

You mentioned the key word - Reputation - it has far more weight for a teacher than a demonstration of skill.  If you have joined a teacher in a studio it must be because you have heard good things. Although I dont think it is rude to ask to play, I never demanded it as a criteria for a teacher .  You can find out in other ways such as playing a duet. But I think in general, someone who is spending time teaching is not going to have time to keep a polished repertroire

[pianoplunker]

Squeezing a teacher will get you in trouble, I think.

Come to think of it .. I have never had a piano teacher I wanted to squeeze.

[outin]

Come to think of it .. I have never had a piano teacher I wanted to squeeze.

Then we can at least agree on one thing 

[outin]

You mentioned the key word - Reputation - it has far more weight for a teacher than a demonstration of skill.  If you have joined a teacher in a studio it must be because you have heard good things.

No, I had not heard good things about my teachers. I couldn't even think of where to ask. I do not know any parents who's children take private lessons. I only knew 2 adults who took lessons and they didn't seem to progress much. Found nothing on the internet either. It's not like people talk about piano teachers around here...I also have my doubts whether the parents of the kids can even judge the teachers that well, since it's not customary here to take private lessons if you want your kid to study seriously. You would apply to a music school which are state subsided and cheaper and one can possibly progress to professional studies later.  But those are for kids only...

[j_menz]

Come to think of it .. I have never had a piano teacher I wanted to squeeze.

Not even, occasionally, around the neck?

[m1469]

Obviously everybody posting in this thread must come forth with a video recording of your playing (right now) in order to be taken seriously as having anything of potential value to offer the public on pianistic subjects such as this one.  Especially those sage teachers of teachers who offer their opinion on how all teachers should and should not be ...  

[pianoplunker]

No, I had not heard good things about my teachers. I couldn't even think of where to ask. I do not know any parents who's children take private lessons. I only knew 2 adults who took lessons and they didn't seem to progress much. Found nothing on the internet either. It's not like people talk about piano teachers around here...I also have my doubts whether the parents of the kids can even judge the teachers that well, since it's not customary here to take private lessons if you want your kid to study seriously. You would apply to a music school which are state subsided and cheaper and one can possibly progress to professional studies later.  But those are for kids only...

I cannot say too much here since I havent had a teacher for a long time but I did find one great teacher by asking at a Music Store, and another at church ( when I used to go ) . I think it makes a difference when another musician recommends a teacher. I dont know if you are actively looking for a teacher right now but Music Stores that sell keyboards often have the classes you describe. So do community colleges but that depends on where you live in the world

[Bob]

What's the lowest level of performing ability for a teacher then?

I would think they should be able to (or in past were able to) develop the skills, create the effect, etc. for a piece.  If they've never, ever done the skill, I would wonder why they're teaching it.  (Except to start learning it for themselves, using the student as a guinea pig.  I've heard of that/seen that/been used like that for academic classes.)

If they've done it in the past -- I'm thinking of the old prof/teacher who once played but could teach someone fairly well.  A demonstration doesn't hurt though.

If they haven't played a specific piece, but they've got the style or composer down, great. 

If they can do it, and can teach it, that would be the best.  If they've never done it, they would be figuring it out/have potentially incorrect/inefficient information, etc.  I would wonder about that. 

[outin]

I cannot say too much here since I havent had a teacher for a long time but I did find one great teacher by asking at a Music Store, and another at church ( when I used to go ) . I think it makes a difference when another musician recommends a teacher. I dont know if you are actively looking for a teacher right now but Music Stores that sell keyboards often have the classes you describe. So do community colleges but that depends on where you live in the world

Here music stores do not arrange classes at all. Neither do we have the kind of community colleges you do. We have a system of half public institutions that offer cheap evening classes/lessons for adults in language, arts, music and crafts. But they only offer teaching for a rather short spring and autumn terms and for instuments you can only get half our lessons and they are mainly targeting complete beginners. And you have to register early to get a place at all, there aren't that many.

I think one reason for the scarce supply here is that full time teachers are payed rather well in the schools so they do not really need to take private students...

[pianoplunker]

Not even, occasionally, around the neck?

LOL, but no. I think it was the other way around sometimes