If Liszt challenged Beethoven...

[cuberdrift]

...who would give up the piano bench?

Yeah, fine, these kinds of discussions are premature...sorry about that...but I always entertain myself by imagining these "what-if" scenarios involving some of the finest piano players duking it out.

Incidentally, who do you think would win between...

Bach and Saint-Saens (organ)?
Mozart and Beethoven?
Czerny and Clementi?
Liszt and Rachmaninoff?
Liszt and Alkan?
Liszt and Cziffra?
Horowitz and Rachmaninoff?

Players are expected to 1) play their hardest pieces, 2) sight-read a difficult composition by their opponent, and 3) improvise on some random tune they haven't heard of before. The guy who does better at any or all of the three sections could be considered the winner.

My source of inspiration comes from what I read about certain "musical duels" that were a hype during the Baroque-Romantic eras. Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Clementi, Thalberg, Liszt, are perhaps some pianists I read about who constantly emerged victor in such encounters.

If I'm not mistaken, there was some sort of "format" they used for these contests - I've read somewhere that a guy who once wanted to "make mincemeat" of the grumpy Beethoven was bested after he was "out-improvised"; Beethoven reportedly sight-read a hard sonata of his, upside-down, and played around it for about 30 minutes until the opposing piano player finally gave up and left without speaking (sorry, forgot his name...). This "format" inspired the "three-section duel format" I wrote above.

It's also interesting to include the rebirth (?) of these "piano duels" in the late 19th, and early 20th century America - of which African American jazz/proto-jazz musicians loved challenging each other to determine who had the flashiest improvisations...Louis Chauvin, Jelly Roll Morton, Fats Waller, and Art Tatum to name some of the ultimate men to beat...

What do you think?  

Btw, here's an interesting French video I've seen before...

...I think they're supposed to "out-improvise" each other or something. They seem to be following certain rules and a "time limit".

[wwalrus]

i think you just gave me brain cancer

[stevensk]

Oh..no! Not again!

I suggest some kind of disciplinary administrative penalty   for threads like:

1) "Who are the greatest composer?"
2) "What is the most difficult piece ever?"
3) "If Beethoven have lived today..."
4) "If Liszt challenged Beethoven..."
5) "Who is the fastest pianist, all categories"

[ahinton]

i think you just gave me brain cancer

I didn't know that it was possible to transit this online...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

mega yawn

[mjames]

I didn't know that it was possible to transit this online...

Best,

Alistair

Now you know. In fact I think I may have caught some as well.

[j_menz]

Yeah, fine, these kinds of discussions are premature...sorry about that...but I always entertain myself by imagining these "what-if" scenarios involving some of the finest piano players duking it out.

It seems this is another occasion where "entertaining oneself" is best done in private. 

[mjames]

It seems this is another occasion where "entertaining oneself" is best done in private. 

LOL

[alistaircrane4]

Liszt is the best sight reader as it is told he sight read all of Chopin op 10. Beethoven would beat Mozart as Beethoven clearly had the better technique. Liszt trumps Rachmaninoff. Rach's difficulty lies mainly in the large chords and harsh tones liszt is an overall beast. Better match for Rach would be Prokofiev. Alkan beats liszt as it is said that list openly admitted that alkan had the better technique. Just look at alkans pieces! Even liszt had easy ones lol

[j_menz]

Liszt is the best sight reader as it is told he sight read all of Chopin op 10.

It's said he played them, not that he sightread them. His reputation for sightreading is based on Grieg's account of Liszt reading through his Violin Sonata.

You appear to have missed news of Liszt's death, so sorry to bring you the bad news.

Beethoven would beat Mozart as Beethoven clearly had the better technique.

Clearly? 

Just look at alkans pieces! Even liszt had easy ones lol

So does Alkan, neither of which establishes anything.

[alistaircrane4]

It's said he played them, not that he sightread them. His reputation for sightreading is based on Grieg's account of Liszt reading through his Violin Sonata.
If you really wish to get technical it was actually griegs concerto not his violin sonata
You appear to have missed news of Liszt's death, so sorry to bring you the bad news.

Clearly? 
and yes clearly you can tell based on the published works of the two
So does Alkan, neither of which establishes anything.

[j_menz]

If you really wish to get technical it was actually griegs concerto not his violin sonata

True. For some reason I always misremember that.

and yes clearly you can tell based on the published works of the two

Really? Based on his published works, Schubert was a better pianist than in fact he was.

[goldentone]

Beethoven's improvising was legendary, and Beethoven being the figure he was, I'm sure Liszt idolized him.  I don't believe any composer has left such an impact on music as Beethoven.  I doubt Liszt would have wanted to challenge Beethoven.  He would have been happy just to be with him.  Such primodorial feelings are holy.

[coda_colossale]

Rach's difficulty lies mainly in the large chords and harsh tones liszt is an overall beast. Better match for Rach would be Prokofiev.

1- I fail to understand how the difficulty of Rachmaninoff's Sonatas and Concerti lies in the larger chords 
2- Prokofiev was a mediocre pianist. At least say Scriabin, who was also mediocre in comparison to Rachmaninoff.

[alistaircrane4]

1- I fail to understand how the difficulty of Rachmaninoff's Sonatas and Concerti lies in the larger chords 
2- Prokofiev was a mediocre pianist. At least say Scriabin, who was also mediocre in comparison to Rachmaninoff.

How does the difficulty not lie in those chords just look at his third concerto's cadenza both of them the ossia and the main one both such large chords most shy away from it. Scriabin is no comparison to rachmaninoff too different in pianistic style its like comparing Field and Liszt. Prokofiev was a mediocre pianist but by no means mediocre composer look at his second concerto cadenza very difficult with similar aspects to rach

[philolog]

So far as I know, Prokofiev was an excellent pianist. At least contemporary accounts testify to that. Also Rachmaninoff was often lauded as the best pianist of the day, although he always nominated Hoffman for that honor (Hoffman always returned the favor).

Silly these comparisons may be, but I'll admit they're fun.

Beethoven supposedly turned a theme (not a sonata) upside down and improvised in such an impressive way that Stiebelt, his opponent (I hope I've spelled it correctly), slunk away and wouldn't attend any future gatherings where Beethoven might be in attendance (or so says Harold Schonberg).

Liszt might very well have been the most astonishing sight reader in history, but it's impossible to judge-----Ogdon was supposed to have been quite something himself and I wouldn't be surprised if Saint-Saens and Bizet might have had some talent in that area------Bach, of course, was no slouch but the music of his day was quite different--------complex and difficult but in another way altogether from the Romantics. He probably would have had to evolve a new technique to cope with the challenges...

[pianist1976]

I can't believe I'm reading so many stupidities: Prokofiev a mediocre pianist? C'mon, gentlemen, clean your ears...

[mjames]

How about you idiots stop treating these composers like *** prophets and just enjoy the damn music. Jesu Christ.

[coda_colossale]

How does the difficulty not lie in those chords just look at his third concerto's cadenza both of them the ossia and the main one both such large chords most shy away from it. Scriabin is no comparison to rachmaninoff too different in pianistic style its like comparing Field and Liszt. Prokofiev was a mediocre pianist but by no means mediocre composer look at his second concerto cadenza very difficult with similar aspects to rach

Prokofiev is more similar to Rachmaninoff than Scriabin? I'm not sure I can agree.
And well, the ossia cadenza isn't difficult IMO. It may even be one of the easier parts of the concerto, for those with large hands. 2nd moment musicaux, B flat major and E flat minor preludes, Op. 39 No. 6 Etude-Tableaux do not contain large chordy jumps

I can't believe I'm reading so many stupidities: Prokofiev a mediocre pianist? C'mon, gentlemen, clean your ears...

U kiddin' bro? Most of what Prokofiev has played was his own music. Everybody plays their music good. You think he could play Schumann's Carnaval at the same level as Rachmaninoff? I don't care whether Beethoven or Liszt was a greater pianist, but in this case, the answer is a resounding "Rachmaninoff".

[cuberdrift]

Why all the derisiveness? It's fun imagining these types of things. I remember once there was a Youtube video that discussed the encounter between Mozart and Clementi. I found it highly interesting.

[pianist1976]

.

[pianoplunker]

...who would give up the piano bench?

Yeah, fine, these kinds of discussions are premature...sorry about that...but I always entertain myself by imagining these "what-if" scenarios involving some of the finest piano players duking it out.

Incidentally, who do you think would win between...

Bach and Saint-Saens (organ)?

It probably depends on who had the biggest organ

[ignaceii]

Start posting more on the unknown masters. Henselt, Raff, Kabalevsky,... Instead of milking those standard geniuses. And what a stupid question.
Field and Alkan are coming. A whole army of chinese soldiers is waiting under the dust to be revived.
See UnsungMasterworks on youtube.
Stop this nonsense.