Is finger strength a myth?

[dima_76557]

Despite having had many moments of desperation I now believe so too if I just can keep myself motivated to do all the extra work and accept that it takes time... At least well enough to be able to enjoy playing a lot of piano repertoire well enough to please my ears, if not on a virtuoso level

I like(d) your Sibelius, by the way.
P.S.: Do try some of the Greg Irwin exercises I posted in the other thread SLOWLY. This does not affect your problem in any way and you will benefit greatly from doing them in unexpected ways.

[outin]

I like(d) your Sibelius, by the way.

Not a polished performance, but thanks anyway

P.S.: Do try some of the Greg Irwin exercises I posted in the other thread SLOWLY. This does not affect your problem in any way and you will benefit greatly from doing them in unexpected ways.

I'll look into those. That note about social gestures in the beginning of the first video was cute

[hardy_practice]

It's a real pity that this isn't the straightforward truism it should be. If it weren't for all the methods that suggest that the finger should only "support" arm energy (without generating movement of its own)

Supporting the arm has been part of modern technique since at least the 1850's when pianos became louder and actions heavier.  For accents and chords you drop/push into the piano.  For staccato you poke from the elbow (not available for fast staccato).

[nyiregyhazi]

I would never claim I have mastered everything or that "my technique is a model of perfection". It's simply stupid of you to assume something like that. On the contrary there's a lot I need to keep working on.

In that case, I'd consider the possibility that you haven't necessasily mastered the particular issue that you made such a blase comment about- which neither myself or this concert performer have yet truly mastered.

Neither do I get tired or get pains from playing anymore. You have a really bad habit of reading what other people write in a way that helps you maintain your prejudices. When I said it's easy to use the palm muscles I did not mean it's easy to learn to do it (took quite a long time for me) but that it is physically not demanding after you've learned it.

So after berating me for suggesting that you think you've mastered things, you are going on to suggest you really have mastered this issue? You're sincerely sticking to that casual assumption- rather than wondering if there might actually be a little more to it, with a modicum of humility? Well, if so, my sincere congratulations to you in surpassing the both of us- for neither the performer I taught nor myself believe that we have mastered the issue.

The first image shows the normal finger shape on the right and hypermobile 1st finger joints on the left. The second picture shows hypermobility acting on the 2nd joints. The photos show what happens if I try to use straight fingers without being prepared. Do you or your concert pianist have such hands? Or have you worked with many students who have? Or maybe your expertice comes from studying such things?

Indeed. This post (about the particular action which is required to solve that very common problem) comes from experience of working with collapsing joints.

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/collapsing-fingers-simple-illustration.html

It's not strictly a strength issue- as I don't normally rely on ligaments to stop myself collapsing. I certainly have a safety net that people with loose ligaments do not, but there's a specific type of coordination of movement that prevents that from being an issue.

Since the muscles in the hand only extend beyond the knuckle joints in the fingers, the ways to control the behavior of the other two finger joints are with the muscles in the forearm and by controlling the weight that is laid on each finger, can you agree?

Not necessarily, although I don't like to get into discussion on anatomical details. The brain does not readily differentiate between actions of the forearm and actions of instrinsic muscles in the hand, in its perceptions. Theories about the interosseus muscles seem very credible to me, although the explanation doesn't matter so much as the basic quality of movement.

My teacher and I are quite happy to call my worst fingers "weak". Yet there's no shortage of grip strength, I can carry a bag with any one finger. To think only about grip strength when discussing finger strength is a common mistake.

Indeed. I state as much in the post. It's about a very specific type of coordination.

[nyiregyhazi]

Supporting the arm has been part of modern technique since at least the 1850's when pianos became louder and actions heavier.  For accents and chords you drop/push into the piano.  For staccato you poke from the elbow (not available for fast staccato).

And the role of the fingers during this is what? To stiffen or to move? Have you forgotten that the neglect of that vital issue was actually my point? By omitting this key issue altogether from your post, you've done an excellent job of illustrating the innate problem with arm approaches. When people do it with stiffness, they feel like their hands aren't strong enough.

[hardy_practice]

And the role of the fingers during this is what? To stiffen or to move?

...supporting the arm as my post states.  'stiffen or move' are not roles, they're muscular contractions.  And don't expect me to read paragraphs of waffle either.

[outin]

Indeed. This post (about the particular action which is required to solve that very common problem) comes from experience of working with collapsing joints.

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/collapsing-fingers-simple-illustration.html

Joints often collapse with "normal" people as well when they play. Benign hypermobility is also not that uncommon. Then there's the debilitating kind. I have no doubt you can help with collapsing joints by introducing better piano technique as can my own teacher. But as you've already admitted you don't like to discuss anatomical details, so it's best to leave the anomalies to those who have experience/expertise on them.

It's not strictly a strength issue- as I don't normally rely on ligaments to stop myself collapsing. I certainly have a safety net that people with loose ligaments do not, but there's a specific type of coordination of movement that prevents that from being an issue.

Well, it's all semantics. I call it strength, you can call it whatever you like.

You say specific type of coordination, I say being prepared.

If it took you and your concert pianist a lot of time and work to find the specific "coordination of movements" consider the fact that me and my teacher have spent the last 3 YEARS looking for solutions to solve this particular issue. I've spent more time on it than anything else related to playing the piano. It was never such a NECESSITY for you, because you have been able to play reasonably well anyway.

[nyiregyhazi]

Joints often collapse with "normal" people as well when they play. Benign hypermobility is also not that uncommon. Then there's the debilitating kind. I have no doubt you can help with collapsing joints by introducing better piano technique as can my own teacher. But as you've already admitted you don't like to discuss anatomical details, so it's best to leave the anomalies to those who have experience/expertise on them.

"admitted"? That's an interesting spin. I don't speculate on anatomical issues that have no immediate practical significance nor any obvious way of influencing perception (which is not tied in directly to the location of muscles, but functions around perception of the movement that results). Anything of practical consequence is of interest to me.

I call it strength, you can call it whatever you like.

I move in a way that doesn't send the joints to their limit of motion. That's coordination, not strength. Only when I let my joints go to their extremes am I using strength of ligaments to stop them doubling back as yours would- but I try to avoid this as much as possible.

You say specific type of coordination, I say being prepared.

Not equivalent. I'm talking about specific movement during key depression. That's not a preparation but a motion that occurs in the present. Also, my term is a mere labelling for something I define in full. Preparation can mean almost anything done prior to moving a key- which is why I asked for clarification as to whether it's preparatory movement or preparatory fixing of a joint.

If it took you and your concert pianist a lot of time and work to find the specific "coordination of movements" consider the fact that me and my teacher have spent the last 3 YEARS looking for solutions to solve this particular issue.

I've spent more than eight years looking to solve the knuckle issues (that you feel you feel you've already mastered) since I first started making technical changes. Is this is a contest now? I'm interested in the issues- not in who holds the Guiness world record for anything.

I've spent more time on it than anything else related to playing the piano. It was never such a NECESSITY for you, because you have been able to play reasonably well anyway.

? Well please continue to explore it. But maybe you could open your mind to the possibility that there are also other issues that may equally be worthy of attention and which you may not have necessarily mastered to perfection- given that concert level performers can still find room for improvement? Also the surest cause of fingertip collapse is arm pressure coupled with insufficient whole finger movement- so these are integral issues to your ongoing experiments.

[pianoman53]

For crying out loud, what are you compensating for?! Do you have some sort of sexual need for people to agree with you, or is it just that your social skills actually are that bad? We get your f-ing point! Get over to some other ft orum, cause you're ruining this one!

[hardy_practice]

Get over to some other forum, cause you're ruining this one!

Urr...He was kicked out of it for ruining it!

[nyiregyhazi]

Urr...He was kicked out of it for ruining it!

As were you- not to mention the two occasions you were banned from this forum , only to start a new account. Anyway, I'm not getting drawn into personal nonsense any more. You can pursue such a line if you wish, but I only discuss topical issues these days- as is anyone's right within an open forum. If you want to pursue off-topic issues then I'll leave you to it, but I'll be sticking to on-topic points.

[pianoman53]

As were you- not to mention the two occasions you were banned from this forum , only to start a new account. Anyway, I'm not getting drawn into personal nonsense any more. You can pursue such a line if you wish, but I only discuss topical issues these days- as is anyone's right within an open forum. If you want to pursue off-topic issues then I'll leave you to it, but I'll be sticking to on-topic points.

Eer, no you don't. You do whatever it takes , in order to be 'correct'. It's sad, really...

[nyiregyhazi]

Eer, no you don't. You do whatever it takes , in order to be 'correct'. It's sad, really...

I'm not interested in debating about debate. Please stick to the topic. A thread is run aground at the point where posts are no longer about pianism but instead members squabbling about other members- which is where you're currently taking this. I won't add any further posts outside of the topic, after this.

[outin]

Not equivalent. I'm talking about specific movement during key depression. That's not a preparation but a motion that occurs in the present. Also, my term is a mere labelling for something I define in full. Preparation can mean almost anything done prior to moving a key- which is why I asked for clarification.

And I declined because I am not going to be able to explain it in words. And if you don't mind me saying, you don't always manage that well either.

For me it's important to prepare to avoid the hand and fingers to do what they would naturally do. I have never claimed to have a method to share to help anyone else, maybe you should go back and read again the post where I used the word.

I've spent more than eight years looking to solve the knuckle issues (that you feel you feel you've already mastered) since I first started making technical changes. Is this is a contest now? I'm interested in the issues- not in who holds the Guiness world record for anything.

It's only your misguided perception that I feel I have mastered anything. There is plenty of work in learning to apply, enough for a lifetime. But clearly it's a big issue for you that someone may have figured out something (how to avoid the knuckles from collapsing) without your blog and maybe even in less time than what it took you. Unfortunately I cannot help with such issues, you should seek for professional councelling. But I can assure you I have had help so don't consider it much of an achievement really. I also didn't have much "baggage" since I hadn't learned any repertoire with any other technique.

[nyiregyhazi]

It's only your misguided perception that I feel I have mastered anything. There is plenty of work in learning to apply, enough for a lifetime. But clearly it's a big issue for you that someone may have figured out something (how to avoid the knuckles from collapsing) without your blog and maybe even in less time than what it took you.

I'm not going to try to take this any further. First you're complaining that I say you think you've mastered this. Then you go on to suggest that you sincerely believe you've figured out how to do something more effectively and more quickly than the concert level artist I referred to- in the very next sentence. That's some show of humility. I'll leave you to whichever of your two conflicting statements you choose to believe.

PS. Preparation can only be based on readying for movement or stiffening against movement- it was never a complex question or one that called for a complex answer.

[thalbergmad]

I don't understand any of this crap and can play the piano just fine .

Thal

[outin]

I don't understand any of this crap and can play the piano just fine .

I guess in the end it makes little difference what and who is collapsing if the music is forgotten

[nyiregyhazi]

I guess in the end it makes little difference what and who is collapsing if the music is forgotten

Did anyone here forget music? I didn't. It's just as well that considering issues that optimise your control over tone doesn't actually conflict with thinking about music. You might as well say that there's no point in a golfer worrying about his swing if he forgets that the ball is supposed to go in the hole, for all the likelihood of causation. If I didn't care about the music I'd be settling for getting the notes right- not looking at issues that pertain primarily to control of the sounds I produce.

[outin]

Did anyone here forget music? I didn't.

Really? Your posts suggest someone obsessed with finger movements and mechanics of piano playing. So one can't help but wonder if you even care about the music or if you are just one of those young men who see the piano as a way to show off by playing fast and flashy things?

But please prove me wrong by pointing me to any posts here, your blog or anywhere where you are discussing music, not mechanic or technical details of a piece. I promise to read it thoroughly.

Technique is important, but there's much more. I've thoroughly enjoyed many performances by pianists who played with collapsed knuckles. And to be perfectly clear, mine also do every now and then and if I can still bring out what I want from the piano I really don't see it as a problem at all.

Here's another view:

I wonder if your attention is drawn to the young pianist's pinky in addition to his knuckles...maybe he shouldn't be wasting his time with Ms. Biret but instead study with a finger movements expert?

And yesterday I watched my own teacher play the Prok 3... and her knuckles collapsed in many places 
Should I get a new teacher?

[lelle]

Really? Your posts suggest someone obsessed with finger movements and mechanics of piano playing. So one can't help but wonder if you even care about the music or if you are just one of those young men who see the piano as a way to show off by playing fast and flashy things?

There is a very musical point to focusing on technique though. How can you expect anyone to play at their full potential without ensuring that the technical aspect of playing is completely under their control?

[outin]

There is a very musical point to focusing on technique though. How can you expect anyone to play at their full potential without ensuring that the technical aspect of playing is completely under their control?

Imo it's difficult to reach one's full potential by fixating on any one thing too much. Neither do I see technique as mechanics only. But I don't necessarily agree with the title of that video, it's just a remainder of another important viewpoint.

[nyiregyhazi]

Really? Your posts suggest someone obsessed with finger movements and mechanics of piano playing. So one can't help but wonder if you even care about the music or if you are just one of those young men who see the piano as a way to show off by playing fast and flashy things?

Maybe you should judge from my playing instead? I've never heard David Leadbetter reminding top players that they are supposed to get the golf ball in the hole in less strokes. Somehow they don't seem to forget that as a result of him showing them to how to hit the ball better and his words don't lead me to suspect that he forgot that either. I see no more reason why caring about controlling your sound would conflict with music than why caring to have control over where you hit a golf ball would make you forget to aim for the hole.

p8unw

p8unw&index=8

My posts are about showing people how to realise their existing intentions- not telling them what to intend. If they have no existing musical intentions and only wish to play notes in the right order then God knows how they expect to get anything out of posts about ease of tonal control. There are very objective issues behind what typically does and what rarely (if ever) offers the full scope for controlling the sound that you produce- which is a huge part of why many amateur pianists who have enough taste not to listen to monotonous crap from other players sadly fail to produce anything other than monotony in their own playing.

Technique is important, but there's much more. I've thoroughly enjoyed many performances by pianists who played with collapsed knuckles.

Ahem- you should read the post I wrote on the issue before putting words into my mouth. ColapsING knuckles are detrimental to control and efficiency. The issue is whethere the distance between knuckle and fingertip is shrinking or growing in the act of depression- not the started position. The issue with starting collapsed is that it objectively takes more physical strength of exertion to achieve the same result and may be physically very strenuous for those who never learned any other way. It's not unlike the reason why babies aren't trained to limbo dance before they can walk. I wouldn't advise anyone else to play with the collapsed starting point he usually does, but it's visibly evident that he suceeds in GROWING rather than COLLAPSING his hand through the act that makes tone. The common fallacy of looking at position without referencing the direction of movement being performed is not one I have ever made, so please don't bring in a strawman to argue against.

And to be perfectly clear, mine also do every now and then and if I can still bring out what I want from the piano I really don't see it as a problem at all.

How does it work for you in double thirds or legato melodic octaves? Assuming it works okay, why are you sticking with such easy repertoire alone? Assuming it doesn't, have you just decided never to transcend your current level? If you wanted to go further, it just might turn out that your knuckles aren't doing better than either my own or the concert performer I worked with, after all. Even if you don't, look to what an artist like Cortot could do with a tiny miniature and ask yourself what it takes to bring out that level of sound production. If you have wonderful control that leaves nothing to be desired, you must make some uploads to the audition room.

His comments are outright offensive towards any pianists who struggle to express their full musical intention for technical reasons. This guff about it being about the person means (by logical extension) that anyone who cannot control the piano sufficiently to play with musical warmth is a cold human being. The guy is a complete moron- who is very lucky to happen to be a talented and technically capable moron.

[mjames]

Maybe you should judge from my playing instead? I've never heard David Leadbetter reminding top players that they are supposed to get the golf ball in the hole in less strokes. Somehow they don't seem to forget that as a result of him showing them to how to hit the ball better. I see no more reason why caring about controlling your sound would conflict with music than why caring to have control over where you hit a golf ball would make you forget to aim for the hole.

p8unw

p8unw&index=8

My posts are about showing people how to realise their existing intentions- not telling them what to intend. If they have no existing musical intentions and only wish to play notes in the right order then God knows how they expect to get anything out of posts about ease of tonal control. There are very objective issues behind what typically does and what rarely (if ever) offers the full scope for controlling the sound that you produce- which is a huge part of why many amateur pianists who have enough taste not to listen to monotonous crap from other players sadly fail to produce anything other than monotony in their own playing.

Ahem- you should read the post I wrote on the issue before putting words into my mouth. ColapsING knuckles are detrimental to control and efficiency. The issue is whethere the distance between knuckle and fingertip is shrinking or growing in the act of depression- not the started position. The issue with starting collapsed is that it objectively takes more physical strength of exertion to achieve the same result and may be physically very strenuous for those who never learned any other way. It's not unlike the reason why babies aren't trained to limbo dance before they can walk. I wouldn't advise anyone else to play with the collapsed starting point he usually does, but it's visibly evident that he suceeds in GROWING rather than COLLAPSING his hand through the act that makes tone. The common fallacy of looking at position without referencing the direction of movement being performed is not one I have ever made, so please don't bring in a strawman to argue against.

How does it work for you in double thirds or legato melodic octaves? Assuming it works okay, why are you sticking with such easy repertoire alone? Assuming it doesn't, have you just decided never to transcend your current level? If you wanted to go further, it just might turn out that your knuckles aren't doing better than either my own or the concert performer I worked with, after all. Even if you don't, look to what an artist like Cortot could do with a tiny miniature and ask yourself what it takes to bring out that level of sound production. If you have wonderful control that leaves nothing to be desired, you must make some uploads to the audition room.

His comments are outright offensive towards any pianists who struggle to express their full musical intention for technical reasons. This guff about it being about the person means (by logical extension) that anyone who cannot control the piano sufficiently to play with musical warmth is a cold person. The guy is a complete moron- who is very lucky to happen to be a talented and technically capable moron.

HOLY sh*t

YOURE CZIFFRA1980?

ONE OF YOUR VIDEOS HAS a MILLION VIEWS

DUDE YOU ARE YOUTUBE FAMOUS

*bows down*

oh and youre also really good, like your scriabin sonata no.3

[nyiregyhazi]

HOLY sh*t

YOURE CZIFFRA1980?

ONE OF YOUR VIDEOS HAVE a MILLION VIEWS

DUDE YOU ARE YOUTUBE FAMOUS

*bows down*

oh and youre also really good, like your scriabin sonata no.3

Cheers- that's a film of Volodos playing though. I can't take any credit for the million views.

[pianoman53]

Okay. So judging from your playing, you ain't that good. Your chords don't go together, and it's static. Rather unimaginative tone color, and very basic phrasing. I'm not saying that I'm great, but I also don't act like I know everything.

[hardy_practice]

p8unw

You gotta be kidding right?  Never seen such fussy playing, unless maybe you're a maiden aunt in disguise?  There's enough tension in bar 1 for the entire first page!

[mjames]

lmao you guys are harsh

[pianoman53]

lmao you guys are harsh

No, it's different.
If someone is very humble about his style, and don't ask people to judge him by his playing, then I would judge it differently.
Now, however, we have a guy who is so full of himself. He always corrects people, on whatever technical matter it is, without ever considering the music. Then comes off with the attitude "Fine, don't trust my words, but trust my playing". If the playing isn't amazing, it's very easy to find mistakes. Now the case was that it, not only, wasn't amazing, it was even quite bad... Wow...

[dima_76557]

p8unw

You gotta be kidding right?  Never seen such fussy playing, unless maybe you're a maiden aunt in disguise?  There's enough tension in bar 1 for the entire first page!

Considering that this must be a VERY old Blüthner upright (they can be really hard to get what you were expecting), I don't think the effort is that bad.

I also don't know about the tension; not my impression at all. Just unusual adaptive/corrective movements sometimes.

[nyiregyhazi]

No, it's different.
If someone is very humble about his style, and don't ask people to judge him by his playing, then I would judge it differently.
Now, however, we have a guy who is so full of himself. He always corrects people, on whatever technical matter it is, without ever considering the music. Then comes off with the attitude "Fine, don't trust my words, but trust my playing". If the playing isn't amazing, it's very easy to find mistakes. Now the case was that it, not only, wasn't amazing, it was even quite bad... Wow...

Nice strawman. That's especially clever to put quotes in- as if I literally said it. I actually posted in response to the implication that music might supposedly be assumed as altogether absent from my radar (simply because I consider technical issues) and not to suggest I'm a first rate pianist. Unlike Outin (who believes she has mastered the knuckles issue I raised earlier) I'm aware of many holes in my technique and the musical results are not close to the sound I am striving for, as yet. It takes either a genius or a fool to be lacking in self-critical faculties and I certainly don't count myself in either group.
  
However, here's something that isn't recorded on an antique piano, for you:

If you consider that to be the playing of someone who doesn't put any thought into anything but technique, that's entirely up to you to form your own opinion about.

PS. I'm rather amused that you complain that my chords "don't go together". I suggest you listen to a few recordings of the composer and his contemporaries and see how closely their chords "go together".  Have you wondered whether maybe they weren't trying to play them together?

[nyiregyhazi]

p8unw

You gotta be kidding right?  Never seen such fussy playing, unless maybe you're a maiden aunt in disguise?  There's enough tension in bar 1 for the entire first page!

By all means detail where and what the visual indications of that are.

[outin]

How does it work for you in double thirds or legato melodic octaves? Assuming it works okay, why are you sticking with such easy repertoire alone? Assuming it doesn't, have you just decided never to transcend your current level? If you wanted to go further, it just might turn out that your knuckles aren't doing better than either my own or the concert performer I worked with, after all. Even if you don't, look to what an artist like Cortot could do with a tiny miniature and ask yourself what it takes to bring out that level of sound production. If you have wonderful control that leaves nothing to be desired, you must make some uploads to the audition room.

My legato 3rd and octaves? Thanks for asking. Legato 3rds are indeed where I found it exteremely beneficial to be able to control the knuckles. Just a year ago I was unable to play them without lifting some fingers early, but almost overnight they became confortable to excecute and now I wonder how I ever found them so difficult. That's fascinating in piano playing for me, how I can suddenly be able to do something that seemed impossible for so long.

I still haven't been able to solve the problems with my RH octaves, so melodic octaves obviously won't work really. Left hand I'd say they are quite ok. I have a long 4th so it helps.

Technically my biggest problem is still the RH thumb. I see a little improvement, but not enough. My RH shape is completely off in anything over a 7th on white keys because I just struggle to reach the notes. My thumb joint starts acting up really easily. Arpeggios is another problem area, because I cannot get my hand to a comfortable octave, I cannot properly take advantage of grouping.

Why do I play the pieces I do? Because I like them and I want to play them. Difficulty or levels have no value for me. Since I am a very slow memorizer, I prefer to play short pieces. Some of the pieces I have studied actually are technically rather demanding, especially for someone with hand span issues. Advanced repertoire tends to have RH octaves/large chords everywhere and I have never felt really comfortable about changing the original to better suit my hands, so I avoid those pieces until (hopefully) one day my hand has adjusted. I might just play something more "advanced" in a few more years. But hurrying just to show off to someone doesn't seem necessary to me at all. Being able to learn grade 7 pieces in reasonable time after 3 years seems adequate enough to me. I can spend a long time on this "level" without running out of wonderful music.

I will gladly post to the audition room as soon as I can make a recording I can feel satisfied about. But I really don't have enough time to securely memorize pieces, as soon as I can play them through there's new material to work on. My reading is really poor still... Some pieces are technically quite ready, but I still get memory issues so the recordings are ruined by little hesitations and pauses. Even bigger issue is that I haven't been able to solve the problems of my piano's sound on the recordings. It just sounds bad. Too loud for the room I guess and the things I've added for damping it down just make the bass sound horrible.

Would it make you feel better if I join your hypotheses that I would run into problems with advanced repertoire and would need to spend many more years on studying my knuckles? It makes no difference to me really if I say that you may be just right. Many things may happen in this world and I am no psychic. I just look at my hands when I play and make wild guesses...

[thalbergmad]

I think by brain is collapsing after reading all of this.

Thal

[outin]

I think by brain is collapsing after reading all of this.

I hope it won't end up somewhere in your lower body...

[outin]

Maybe you should judge from my playing instead? I've never heard David Leadbetter reminding top players that they are supposed to get the golf ball in the hole in less strokes. Somehow they don't seem to forget that as a result of him showing them to how to hit the ball better and his words don't lead me to suspect that he forgot that either. I see no more reason why caring about controlling your sound would conflict with music than why caring to have control over where you hit a golf ball would make you forget to aim for the hole.

p8unw

p8unw&index=8

Performing music is not sports though... There's more to it than getting something into a hole...

I'm sure I've said it before, you play difficult pieces competently. One thing I must say: I would have liked your playing more if I didn't watch your hands while you played. I didn't get the pieceful comfortable feeling I get from watching many other pianists. Maybe it's just your style, but to me it looks like you work hard to keep everything "correct" shapewise with your hands, which seems to add extra movements and also makes the playing a bit dry and academic (I can't think of better words now). The Scarlatti sonatas where technically excellent, but I just felt they had been sucked out of life...

I really don't feel comfortable writing such things on anybody's playing and of course there was lot to admire there (beautiful clean runs for example), but you asked so please don't get offended.

If the purpose of those videos is educational, I guess it explains a lot. In that case it would be nice to see/hear you play something just for the piece itself.

[thalbergmad]

Performing music is not sports though

It appears to some that it is.

If sports were music, a 70m javelin throw could beat a 90m javelin throw because the flight path was more visually pleasing.

Thal

[nyiregyhazi]

If the purpose of those videos is educational, I guess it explains a lot. In that case it would be nice to see/hear you play something just for the piece itself.

Very nice backhander. That's the thing with technique though- if you don't have it truly mastered the music doesn't just flow from intention to execution. I've never claimed to have mastered it, regardless of what words any posters might falsely wish to attribute to me. That's why it's so much easier to be musical in Rachmaninoff or Chopin than in Scarlatti. And it's why it's so important to work on the most fundamental issues that determine control over each sound- because musical thinking doesn't magically produce results when the fingers don't do as you wish.

Music may not be a sport but it's still a goal oriented issue- where success at attaining the goal you want depends on your control over the sound you produce. If technique is being worked at without any goal, it won't be useful. If it's being worked at for the specific reason that you trying to come closer to goals, then it certainly won't conflict with music.

[nyiregyhazi]

It appears to some that it is.

If sports were music, a 70m javelin throw could beat a 90m javelin throw because the flight path was more visually pleasing.

Thal

Indeed. But nobody actually used a distance analogy that suggested bigger is better. It was an analogy about having a precisely intended result and realising  precisely that result- which is what excellent musicians do. The analogy was about getting the ball specifically to the hole- not about breaking a driving range record.

Success of musical execution is based on intending a result and then making sure you nail each and every tonal intensity to precisely match that intention. You see no similarity to the fact a golfer first needs to get the ball to go where he actually intended it before he can succeed in hitting his target? It's all very easy to make an analogy irrelevant when you completely alter it.

[nyiregyhazi]

My legato 3rd and octaves? Thanks for asking. Legato 3rds are indeed where I found it exteremely beneficial to be able to control the knuckles. Just a year ago I was unable to play them without lifting some fingers early, but almost overnight they became confortable to excecute and now I wonder how I ever found them so difficult. That's fascinating in piano playing for me, how I can suddenly be able to do something that seemed impossible for so long.

I still haven't been able to solve the problems with my RH octaves, so melodic octaves obviously won't work really. Left hand I'd say they are quite ok. I have a long 4th so it helps.

So a simple question- why are you so sure your knuckles are working better than those of the concert performer I worked with, who had room for improvements and progress? Also, how fast are the thirds? It's very easy to use stiffness to get by until you go faster. You need to get up to at least five or six notes per second and beyond, before you can accurately see if the knuckles are well balanced or simply kept up by fixation. If it's fixation, you'll hit a speed wall.  

Why do I play the pieces I do? Because I like them and I want to play them. Difficulty or levels have no value for me.

The value of progress is that if you like a piece you can learn it- without worrying about the difficulty. Please let's not start on the inverse snobbery routine. Nobody said difficulty has innate value.  The point is that you'll find yourself able to enjoy a lot more valuable music that you like if you think ahead in the long term (given that good music doesn't always tend to be easy)- rather than assume that what is good enough for now is all you will ever need.

Would it make you feel better if I join your hypotheses that I would run into problems with advanced repertoire and would need to spend many more years on studying my knuckles? It makes no difference to me really if I say that you may be just right. Many things may happen in this world and I am no psychic. I just look at my hands when I play and make wild guesses...

All I asked was that you consider an issue that both a concert performer and myself are willing to see that we have not mastered- rather than make the assumption that you've personally managed what we haven't without bypassing intermediate level. Just maybe you haven't either. One of the best ways to learn is to have an open mind rather than a blase attitude about where there is room to learn.

[mjames]

I think by brain is collapsing after reading all of this.

Thal

you and me both buddy.

I love you Thal. You are one of the few un-complicated (or, non-complicated?..idk) people in this forum.  

[hardy_practice]

Maybe it's just your style, but to me it looks like you work hard to keep everything "correct" shapewise with your hands, which seems to add extra movements and also makes the playing a bit dry and academic (I can't think of better words now).

Yes, there's this control freak evident.  The body must play not the will!  It's a transgression of the natural order otherwise.

[dima_76557]

Performing music is not sports though...

It appears to some that it is.

Let's not be mistaken however; being able to play many pieces in the repertoire requires the training and persistence of a ballerina. Please have a look at how Cyprien Katsaris, one of the most original MUSICIANS of our time, solves the problems of an Asian girl in one of the more virtuoso variations in Mendelssohn's "Variations sérieuses" with an approach that borders on sheer athletics:

&t=35m0s

He says it himself in that clip: "this is like sports, you know. We need that kind of training." I like Katsaris for doing that with the student during the lesson/masterclass - solve it right now on the spot. How easy would it be to simply say: "Do your dirty linen at home" or "it's all in the music; simply imagine and lo! it's done". We need that kind of help sometimes to get rid of physical obstacles that would otherwise take years and years to overcome.

[nyiregyhazi]

Yes, there's this control freak evident.  The body must play not the will!  It's a transgression of the natural order otherwise.

The problem is that the body doesn't make good decisions of its own accord.

Unfortunately, mine too has all manner of desires to do it's own counterproductive things.

I filmed that after having read through for the first time on the previous day, with little thought of anything but my musical intentions. As you can see, the knuckles work worse than ever and there's plenty of awkward bobbing- thanks to my letting the body decide for me (rather than training myself to organise it better, first). The body alway rules by the time you're in performance mode and working primarily towards a sound- which is why you need to train it up as well as possible first and limit how counterproductive the instinctive issues will be, via sound preparation.

[outin]

So a simple question- why are you so sure your knuckles are working better than those of the concert performer I worked with, who had room for improvements and progress?

How could I know if they are working better than the said pianist, I have no idea how his knuckles work and have never claimed so. I have only said they work WELL ENOUGH for my purposes. I don't know what your standards are really.

But haven't you noticed as a teacher that some things that are easy for one can be really difficult for another and vise-versa? Isn't it quite normal for someone to be able to execute things over they general "level" while still need to work on other things generally considered easy? The learning curves are just so different. Controlling my hand movements really hasn't felt that difficult for me after I got help for my physical health issues, except for the things mentioned in my previous post. Maybe I'm just naturally "handy" even with the unstable joints (or maybe that actually helps in some way). Controlling my mind is what is much more difficult.

Also, how fast are the thirds?  

Who cares? I have made no measurements, but stiffness was what enabled me to do them before, now I just do them. When I get to a piece with 3rds 5-6 notes per second, I'll will be able to give you an answer.

The value of progress is that if you like a piece you can learn it- without worrying about the difficulty. Please let's not start on the inverse snobbery routine. Nobody said difficulty has innate value.  The point is that you'll find yourself able to enjoy a lot more valuable music that you like if you think ahead in the long term (given that good music doesn't always tend to be easy)- rather than assume that what is good enough for now is all you will ever need.

You really are a piece of work  Snobbery? If I have about 1000 pieces that I REALLY want to play that are up to level 7 (about 500 from my favorite composer), how is it snobbery if I want to spend some years enjoying that project (and actually developing new skills at the same time)?? What's that got to do with "what I will ever need"? Newsflash: I may be DEAD tomorrow. No use for knuckles then...

[outin]

Let's not be mistaken however; being able to play many pieces in the repertoire requires the training and persistence of a ballerina.

My teacher has compared playing the piano to dancing ballet many times, but I don't consider dancing a sport either, even if it requires even more physical precision and training.

[nyiregyhazi]

How could I know if they are working better than the said pianist, I have no idea how his knuckles work and have never claimed so. I have only said they work WELL ENOUGH for my purposes. I don't know what your standards are really.

 "since my problem is not collapsing knuckles, that is quite easy to avoid with the  palm musculature."

So, it's easy for you to avoid what he and I need to work at. That's just the first of many blase
statements I could have quoted.

But haven't you noticed as a teacher that some things that are easy for one can be really difficult for another and vise-versa? Isn't it quite normal for someone to be able to execute things over they general "level" while still need to work on other things generally considered easy?

When it comes to this issue, what I have noticed is that virtually no students realise their knuckles aren't working as well as they could be and that they only really notice after I guide them through exercises that expose the problems to them.

Who cares? I have made no measurements, but stiffness was what enabled me to do them before, now I just do them. When I get to a piece with 3rds 5-6 notes per second, I'll will be able to give you an answer.

By then the problems are very hard to fix. Start testing yourself at least occasionally now, if you want to get there.

You really are a piece of work  Snobbery? If I have about 1000 pieces that I REALLY want to play that are up to level 7 (about 500 from my favorite composer), how is it snobbery if I want to spend some years enjoying that project (and actually developing new skills at the same time)??

Not a single piece has ever appealed more than those 1000? If you want to get to them too, open your mind about what you will need to do to get there.

[dima_76557]

My teacher has compared playing the piano to dancing ballet many times, but I don't consider dancing a sport either, even if it requires even more physical precision and training.

The sports element lies in the fact that we need to play on instinct, otherwise many pieces simply won't work. And believe it or not: that "virtuoso" Mendelssohn is child's play compared to some slow movements by Bach and Mozart, even in the physical aspects.

[hardy_practice]

The problem is that the body doesn't make good decisions of its own accord.

It does you just can't hear it.  To replace one will with another as you do, gets you nowhere.  The will has this huge job to do and you waste its power fiddling about with your body!  Good grief.

[outin]

 "since my problem is not collapsing knuckles, that is quite easy to avoid with the  palm musculature."

So, it's easy to avoid what he and I need to work at.  

If it really is THAT difficult for you, then the only possible conclusion is yes, mine must work better.

When it comes to this issue, what I have noticed is that virtually no students realises their knuckles aren't working as well as they could be and that they only really notice after I guide them through exercises that expose the problems.

By then the problems are very hard to fix.

I'm sorry your students all suffer this problem. Even those you have started from scratch?

Remember, as I told you I had no baggade when I started, got an excellent teacher only after 3 months on the piano (who pointed out the problems with my hand shape immediately), have read a lot about piano technique. I have also spend a huge amount of time watching some great pianists play, comparing my hands to theirs and experimented. When I started getting better tone, it became much easier, because I am extremely "aural". I intuitively learn things when I hear the right sound results. Maybe that's why it isn't so difficult, I don't think too much about the mechanics of what I do. I mostly listen and look at my hands and learn what works and what doesn't.

Remember, It's not so easy to unlearn something you have done for decades. You really cannot know how it would  be if you or your concert pianists started your playing with adult hands and mind. And I seriously doubt your adult beginners invest the amount of time or have such passion for improving their piano playing as I have. I have met none in real life who has, only some people on internet and even from those many seem to get tired of it soon because they have too unrealistic expectations.

Not a single piece has ever appealed more than those 1000? If you want to get to them too, open your mind about what you will need to do to get there.

Can't tell since I don't tend to put things in order that way (this piece appeals to me by X amount and another by Y amount). I am not built that way. Honestly when I hear a piece I like and get the sheet, only to notice it is too complicated for me, do I feel bad? Not really, I put it aside and think I will return to it later if it still feels worthy.

And I still can drop dead tomorrow, so why would I think about such things too much?

[outin]

The sports element lies in the fact that we need to play on instinct, otherwise many pieces simply won't work. And believe it or not: that "virtuoso" Mendelssohn is child's play compared to some slow movements by Bach and Mozart, even in the physical aspects.

OK, admission: I HATE sports with a passion (think it's one of the most idiotic things human race has invented), so I really don't like my beloved music to be compared to it!