rach sonatas

[isyriel]

so which one do you think in your OPINION is better?

technically, musically etc.

i personally like the 2nd sonata first verion better.

[eusebius12]

I haven't heard the first often enough to truly form a judgement, but having recently heard it again I am moved to say that both (or all 3?) are great pieces, much superior musically to the rather hackneyed concerti.

[superstition2]

rather hackneyed concerti.

Rachmaninov's last three concertos are very original.

My take on the sonatas... The first is evidently missing 10 minutes and would probably be a stronger work with that material, knowing how Rachmaninov's cutting nearly always turns out. It is still a very good piece regardless.

The second is definitely best in its original form, good in hybrid form, and poor in the final revised form.

I can't say I prefer one of the sonatas over the other. They are both brilliant pieces.

[eusebius12]

I don't find them particularly original, but I do enjoy them, they are beautiful pieces, just that I find the sonatas more compelling, taut, better structured, especially than the rather flabby (in my mind) structure of the 3rd (although it has interesting themes). Hackneyed more though in the sense (especially in relation to 2 and 3) being so ubiquitous than 'un' original, which is not my contention.

[superstition2]

I don't find them particularly original

Please point me in the direction of the very similar pieces by other composers, because I can think of none.

[eusebius12]

What 3 movement piano concertos, rather loosely connected, rather discursive, with highly elaborate pianistic textures? How about Chopin and Liszt?

[superstition2]

How about Chopin and Liszt?

Those sound nothing like the Rach concertos.

[eusebius12]

But they look similar

Rachmaninov's sound is of course much more derived from (sorry, influenced by) Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, and the harmonies of the Russian Orthodox Church.

[superstition2]

But they look similar

Rachmaninov's sound is of course much more derived from (sorry, influenced by) Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, and the harmonies of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Tchaikovsky's concertos aren't as good, though, are they (with the exception of the first which is really very different from Rachmaninov in the first place)? The first movement of his third, which sounds vaguely like Rachmaninov's fourth, pales by comparison.

[eusebius12]

Rachmaninov's concertos are superior to Tchaikovsky's, without doubt. Still there is a strong musical influence, imho, from Tchaikovsky> Rach. Not specifically from T's concertos. I love Rachmaninov, probably more than ever, although I have heard some of the concerted works a little too often. His art songs are really wonderful many of them. I wonder if many hear play and sing lieder/art songs (play and sing at the same time, that is )


PS as a later amendment, I would clarify that overall in my view Rach's concerti are a greater body of work than Tchaik's...

[awesom_o]

I wonder if many hear play and sing lieder/art songs (play and sing at the same time, that is )

I do this with Schubert quite a bit.

On the subject of the Rachmaninoff Sonatas, I love both the 1st and the 2nd. I've concertized with the original version of the 2nd and worked on the 1st for quite a while.

I also really like his Cello Sonata, and plan to play it fairly soon, hopefully on both piano and cello (not at the same time)

[eusebius12]

Haha but you could try interpolating the cello part

[awesom_o]

Haha but you could try interpolating the cello part

I think that's been done by Arcadi Volodos.

I'll stick to playing the original, as a cellist with my own partner, and as a pianist with my brother's partner, who is a superior cellist compared to me.

[coda_colossale]

I see a much more obvious connection among Chopin and Rachmaninoff's 2nd Sonatas than Rach and Tchaikovsky concerti.

[eusebius12]

I never said that there was any particular influence between Tchaikovsky's concerti and Rachmaninov. Actually I clarified that, or reasonably tried to do so I think more than once. I pointed out the link between the concerti of Rachmaninov, Chopin and Liszt. The general idiom of Rachmaninov is certainly influenced by Pyotr Ilyich.

[coda_colossale]

Obviously, Tchaikovsky, Chopin and Liszt were direct influences on Rachmaninoff.
But while Tchaikovsky's influence was on the overall style of Rachmaninoff, I think Rachmaninoff's second sonata is a direct descendant of Chopin's second sonata. It's just that I see no such connection between Rachmaninoff concerti -especially 3rd- and any other piece of music. Maybe the intermezzo of Rach 3 and the slow movement of Tchaikovsky 1, but I think that's done unconsciously, like the theme of the second movement of Rach 4 and Schumann PC. Though pianistically, I don't find Tchaikovsky interesting, neither do I think Rachmaninoff himself did. There is always an influence of Chopin and Liszt, which is inevitable, within a unique Rachmaninoffesque texture.

[eusebius12]

On the whole I agree with your post, although I find the resemblances between the Chopin 2nd and the Rach 2nd (sonata) to be on the whole superficial. Also that the Rach 3rd is certainly an outgrowth of the 2nd imho.