Tapping explanation

[marijn210999]

Hey everyone,

I've read the topic's on the "tapping technique" but it doesn't explains to me quite clear how to do it. Let's for example take the third movement of Mozart's K. 282 Sonata (which I'm struggling with right now ) Could someone explain to me (in steps) how to do this method. So for example:

1. Step 1
2. Step 2
etc.

Many thanks

[stringoverstrung]

Hi Marijn,

better watch it instead of explaining it.

Kr,
Gert

[Bob]

Interesting.

Looks like it's a way to relax the fingers for faster playing.

I haven't heard of it before, but the steps are right there in the videos.  Goal -- Relax the fingers.  No tension in faster playing.  Method -- Put the fingers on the keys.  Press down with the other hands.  Just get the limp hand loosened up.  Focus on the feeling of being relaxed in that hand.  Then actually use that hand, but keep that relaxed state.

I think that's the gist.

I'm curious about the gymnast training part.  I wonder what they were doing for that that was similar. 

[cwjalex]

im not familiar with this but the overall goal seems to just release tension and keep your fingers relaxed.  it is interesting method and am not really sure what pushing your fingers with your fingers on your opposite hand is supposed to do.  i'll give it a try

EDIT:  im not sure if it was doing the exercise or just realizing that i had to release tension but i have much improved my trilling ability after watching those videos.

[dima_76557]

better watch it instead of explaining it.

What the visual aspect of watching the clips does not reveal, however, is the sensory aspect of it all: since the fingers get a PASSIVE experience of moving the key, the neuromotor system learns itself how to best organize the action of moving a key without us trying to consciously control anything. This cannot be achieved as quickly as the clips seem to suggest.

There is more than one way to do fingertapping as we can read here:
https://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/articles/tapping.html

[stringoverstrung]

Dima,

you are absolutely right. It is the sensory awareness that counts. I don't think at amateur level you need to do it a lot. But when you do it and pay attention it can give you a new feeling of relaxation and sensory input at the fingertips just like you said.

[cwjalex]

you guys are all awesome for posting those articles.  they made me understand why i had such poor trilling ability with my right hand and just after reading the articles it is instantly fixed.  i was tensing up and using my forearm which caused my fingers to stiffen up and not move independently.  wow thanks guys.

[pts1]

Since someone else posted a link to the article explaining the relaxation of the hand and the use of the intrinsic muscles, I would only add a bit about the piano mechanism itself and what produces the sound.

In a grand piano, the technically proficient pianist learns to manipulate the velocity of the key descent and only makes the effort to the point at which the "jack" pushes past the "knuckle" on the "hammer shaft" at which point the relaxed finger's momentum pushes the key onto the key bed felt and the weight of the  far end  lifts the key and the finger back up.

One must learn to "sense" this by quickly pressing down a key, feeling the descent and the jack pushing past the knuckle (escapement) and the point at which further pressing does nothing since the key effects the jack -- knuckle/shaft -- hammer ONLY to the point at which the jack slips past the knuckle.

Once you develop the finger sensitivity to feel this, and learn how much effort to play each key, then you've basically discovered the true secret to the professional piano technique.

This is difficult to explain in words and is likely to be confusing, but the hand should feel sort of "disembodied" from the arm and very loose, independent, and swivel easily at the wrist. The arms should feel like they are the servants of the hands, and that the relaxed finger gently floating on the key are the prime movers of the keyboard.

Here is a youtube of a grand action which focuses on the wooden jack pushing past the rounded knuckle near the pivot end of the hammer shank

[sashaco]

I have been experimenting with tapping while working on the left hand of the Revolutionary Etude.  I find that if I sart by tapping it through quite slowly and then build up speed I can keep the hand and arm quite relaxed up to what would be a reasonable performance speed.  If I'm doing it well I can still hear separation of each 16th at 120bpm- if I can't, I go back to 100 and then move to something else- relaxation can't be forced. If I'm satisfied with the 120 I turn off the metronome and play it at a speed at which the notes are fully juxtaposed, as it were. It's very easy to start tightening and trying to play stacatto rather than simply allowing the key weight to return the fingers.  I think it will take  quite a few months to make a genuine change in technique that will help me long term but I am surprised at how quickly I've been able to make a (relatively) smooth and rapid line with this experiment.
I've just started working on the right hand of the first etude trying the same thing.

The hardest thing I've found is to avoid tightening on the two ocatave jumps.  Normally I would push off, but trying to maintain the tapping sensation, i.e. releasing tension in the pulling muscles of the fingers instantly, I find I lift and swing my arm instead, which tends to make it tighten.  Presumably somewhere in the distant future I'll be able to push off again without interfering with the relaxation of the fingers.

Thoughts?  Does this seem a reasonable approach?  Does what I have written suggest that I have correctly grasped the point of tapping?

[pts1]

sashaco

The whole point of the tapping exercise is to simulate on-the-key playing with the intrinsic hand muscles.

As you're discovering, to quickly pull the key down then relax the finger, is the primary action of virtually all finger technique.

The hand should feel somewhat "disembodied" and very supple, relaxed and each finger and the hand feels very independent and the movement to play a note very small and easy.

The arms are there primarily for the purpose of positioning the hand.

A rather perfect example of this type playing is Michelangeli.

All of the arm moving schools were created for people who'd hurt themselves by excessive force and the myriad of other problems one incurs by not following the easily on-the-key method.

But they are not necessary either, and only impede "true technique".

You will find that the Opus 10 no 2 etude, is NOT possible to play up to speed without this technique. No 1 you can "muscle through" as you can with Revolutionary.

But sounds like you're on the right track.

BTW... you don't need to really practice for speed. Once you learn a piece up to a moderate speed, played with little effort on the key, you will find that you can play it faster at will provided you've done the preparation.

[nyiregyhazi]

sashaco

The whole point of the tapping exercise is to simulate on-the-key playing with the intrinsic hand muscles.

As you're discovering, to quickly pull the key down then relax the finger, is the primary action of virtually all finger technique.

The hand should feel somewhat "disembodied" and very supple, relaxed and each finger and the hand feels very independent and the movement to play a note very small and easy.

The arms are there primarily for the purpose of positioning the hand.

A rather perfect example of this type playing is Michelangeli.

All of the arm moving schools were created for people who'd hurt themselves by excessive force and the myriad of other problems one incurs by not following the easily on-the-key method.

But they are not necessary either, and only impede "true technique".

You will find that the Opus 10 no 2 etude, is NOT possible to play up to speed without this technique. No 1 you can "muscle through" as you can with Revolutionary.

But sounds like you're on the right track.

BTW... you don't need to really practice for speed. Once you learn a piece up to a moderate speed, played with little effort on the key, you will find that you can play it faster at will provided you've done the preparation.

This works in some situations, but there's a huge problem. If the finger is not prepped for the key, you can't do a small movement efficiently. And if the note is not staccato, it's just not the answer at all.

A student whose finger starts in a poor position needs a prolonged ongoing movement to learn what a comfortable but stable position (with a connected arm) feels likes. You can start virtually anywhere, but if you pull back far enough at the knuckle and let the arm respond lightly and freely, you'll end in a good position of the kind that should be normal. Once used to being there you can start to think of simply doing tiny movements. But a hand that starts nowhere near a good open position will gain little from thinking of trying to be concise or from intending instant relaxation. That just keeps it squashed, stressed and incapable. On long notes, instant relaxation in the finger means instant disconnect between finger and arm which causes tension, to stop the unstable position collapsing down. To this day, my fifth finger is almost always doing too little movement to find a stable position. Trying to relax it instantly would be utter disaster for me. It needs the experience of pulling the knuckle into a better position- not a crap movement from an unsuitable starter position followed by a complete slump (that leaves the arm forced to press in, to stop the key rising back up).

When a position is not stable enough, the answer is to MAKE ROOM for the finger to continue acting until the natural connection has been found between finger and arm (which involves ensuring the arm allows a squashed knuckle to ascend, without fighting it). A pianist who has not learned this will find little to help them until they can find true comfort on longer notes. It's actually the arm pressure which works against ongoing finger action which is the greatest enemy. Continuing the finger action is the best weapon a pianist has in terms of learning how to release needless arm pressure. To make room for safe continuation is to release that pressure. Relaxing the finger doesn't deal with the underlying problem- it allows it to remain. Only once all this is mastered is it time to aim for small motions.

[marik1]

To be honest, you lost me in your first sentence. All those "poor position", "prolonged ongoing movement", "stable position", "pull back at the knuckle", etc. etc. etc. is just the way to complicate something, which should be nice, relaxed, and natural from the very beginning. If you do not understand something Pts1 was talking about then you are doing something wrong, to start with. As such, I'd rather start with asking him questions, instead of bashing and arguing of something you clearly have much less idea and experience.

Best, M

This works in some situations, but there's a huge problem. If the finger is not prepped for the key, you can't do a small movement efficiently. And if the note is not staccato, it's just not the answer at all.

A student whose finger starts in a poor position needs a prolonged ongoing movement to learn what a comfortable but stable position (with a connected arm) feels likes. You can start virtually anywhere, but if you pull back far enough at the knuckle and let the arm respond lightly and freely, you'll end in a good position of the kind that should be normal. Once used to being there you can start to think of simply doing tiny movements. But a hand that starts nowhere near a good open position will gain little from thinking of trying to be concise or from intending instant relaxation. That just keeps it squashed, stressed and incapable. On long notes, instant relaxation in the finger means instant disconnect between finger and arm which causes tension, to stop the unstable position collapsing down. To this day, my fifth finger is almost always doing too little movement to find a stable position. Trying to relax it instantly would be utter disaster for me. It needs the experience of pulling the knuckle into a better position- not a crap movement from an unsuitable starter position followed by a complete slump (that leaves the arm forced to press in, to stop the key rising back up).

When a position is not stable enough, the answer is to MAKE ROOM for the finger to continue acting until the natural connection has been found between finger and arm (which involves ensuring the arm allows a squashed knuckle to ascend, without fighting it). A pianist who has not learned this will find little to help them until they can find true comfort on longer notes. It's actually the arm pressure which works against ongoing finger action which is the greatest enemy. Continuing the finger action is the best weapon a pianist has in terms of learning how to release needless arm pressure. To make room for safe continuation is to release that pressure. Relaxing the finger doesn't deal with the underlying problem- it allows it to remain. Only once all this is mastered is it time to aim for small motions.

[pianoplayer002]

which should be nice, relaxed, and natural from the very beginning.

How do you think a person who does not know how to play in a nice, relaxed and natural way should figure it out? No matter how much I wanted to be relaxed and produce good tone I never got any results until I had thought long and hard about HOW I actually had to move to become relaxed.

[marik1]

How do you think a person who does not know how to play in a nice, relaxed and natural way should figure it out? No matter how much I wanted to be relaxed and produce good tone I never got any results until I had thought long and hard about HOW I actually had to move to become relaxed.

The only way I know of is to hire a good piano teacher. If you think or believe you'd learn it from lengthy bashing posts of quasi and wannabe gurus on PS, I'd say that would be waste of time...

Best, M

[pianoplayer002]

The only way I know of is to hire a good piano teacher. If you think or believe you'd learn it from a lengthy bashing posts on PS, I'd say that would be waste of time...

Best, M

It sounds like an easy solution in theory, but much harder in practise. I've had five different teachers and none of them could flat out tell me what I had to do to not be so clumsy and tense. I've learned mostly by experimenting myself, reading books, and yes, the occasional forum discussion on technique.

I was more questioning what sounded like your idea that everyone should just be able to play naturally if they decided to do it, than your critiscism of a specific post, though.

[marik1]

If you look around, very soon you will see that there are a few members here whose advises you could trust. In general, if you see short and concise answers instead of going into lengthy BS, it is a good indicator the person knows what s/he is talking about. Just a few messages above Pts1 had a couple good posts, which I'd suggest you to closely study. They will tell you about piano playing more than about 99% of BS on this board...

Best, M

It sounds like an easy solution in theory, but much harder in practise. I've had five different teachers and none of them could flat out tell me what I had to do to not be so clumsy and tense. I've learned mostly by experimenting myself, reading books, and yes, the occasional forum discussion on technique.

I was more questioning what sounded like your idea that everyone should just be able to play naturally if they decided to do it, than your critiscism of a specific post, though.

[vansh]

Regarding being relaxed allowing you to play faster, I had a revelation once while practicing Revolutionary Etude after downing a beer. It seemed so much more effortless and I could play it back-to-back-to-back (etc.) without getting tired, at speeds that I couldn't have imagined before. Seems like relaxing (rather than tensing up) really does make it work more easily.

Or maybe I was just imagining things with the alcohol in my system...

[pianoplayer002]

Regarding being relaxed allowing you to play faster, I had a revelation once while practicing Revolutionary Etude after downing a beer. It seemed so much more effortless and I could play it back-to-back-to-back (etc.) without getting tired, at speeds that I couldn't have imagined before. Seems like relaxing (rather than tensing up) really does make it work more easily.

Or maybe I was just imagining things with the alcohol in my system...

Relaxing/suppleness is the key. If every joint in the arm - wrists, elbows, shoulders - is completely relaxed and supple, ie possible to move in any direction either by you or another person without any tangible resistance, even as you are playing something fast and difficult, and the hands completely relaxed and only the finger tips active and guiding you,  then you will not get tired and speed will be much easier to attain and control.

[sashaco]

Thanks, pts.  I think you're entirely correct that pieces don't need to be "worked up to speed"- that once they are internalized and understood the speed simply emerges.  In this instance I'm using the left hand alone as an exercise to do something I haven't tried technically before, so I'm experimenting with speeding it up while maintaining a new technique.  At the same time I'm playing the piece much more slowly with both hands, working on dynamics, phrasing and so forth.  I hope that eventually the two somewhat separate approaches will come together.

Also thank you, nyiregyhazi.  If I understand you correctly, you're talking about the sort of stability that comes from the fingers comfortably supporting the weight of a relaxed arm, and using that weight rather than muscle to produce sound.  That is how I have always tried (mostly unsuccessfully) to approach playing.  It seems that at high speeds this causes tension for me, and almost cramping in the forearm, so I'm trying this different method. (I have a vague memory of my teacher introducing me to a similar technique around 1983- the last time I was studying.)  As you say, true tapping can't work except for stacatto, but I think at high speeds the separation will vanish.  I listened to Gould playing Opus 10 no. 2, and to my ear (not the most educated) that is what's going on.  What I'm hoping is that eventually there will be a near continuum between weighted,stable playing and weightless rapid "tapping."  I am already discovering that to keep the tapping even, I need to keep my forearm quite low, almost as if I WERE supporting the arm with the fingers.  I hope I'm makng myself clear- and I apologize if I've misunderstood you.

Cheers, Sasha

pts, I meant to mention that my whole effort here is NOT to muscle through, even if that's possible.  If i have any success I'll try 10 2; right now it seems beyond my reach.  Thanks again.

[nyiregyhazi]

To be honest, you lost me in your first sentence. All those "poor position", "prolonged ongoing movement", "stable position", "pull back at the knuckle", etc. etc. etc. is just the way to complicate something, which should be nice, relaxed, and natural from the very beginning. If you do not understand something Pts1 was talking about then you are doing something wrong, to start with. As such, I'd rather start with asking him questions, instead of bashing and arguing of something you clearly have much less idea and experience.

Best, M

I have spent significant amounts of time on tapping. What I learned is that fifth fingers in particular collapse badly when relaxed and improperly prepped against the resistance of the key. Only by "standing" the finger against the resistance does energy flow seamlessly. A relaxed finger just collapses and does a poor job. It needs to be neither braced nor literally relaxed to do a good job. The myth that relaxing more is always the key is not a magic solution for one and all, if the finger is not used to connecting adequately with the key. Which is why so many who struggle have massively collapsed arches.

Isn't a little ironic to write a post which tells me I'm not allowed to disagree with anyone, while so vehemently disagreeing? Perhaps we might keep it civil and simply exchange honest views- rather than in engage in ad hominems against anyone whose viewpoint does not align with yours?

[nyiregyhazi]

Thanks, pts.  I think you're entirely correct that pieces don't need to be "worked up to speed"- that once they are internalized and understood the speed simply emerges.  In this instance I'm using the left hand alone as an exercise to do something I haven't tried technically before, so I'm experimenting with speeding it up while maintaining a new technique.  At the same time I'm playing the piece much more slowly with both hands, working on dynamics, phrasing and so forth.  I hope that eventually the two somewhat separate approaches will come together.

Also thank you, nyiregyhazi.  If I understand you correctly, you're talking about the sort of stability that comes from the fingers comfortably supporting the weight of a relaxed arm, and using that weight rather than muscle to produce sound.  That is how I have always tried (mostly unsuccessfully) to approach playing.  It seems that at high speeds this causes tension for me, and almost cramping in the forearm, so I'm trying this different method. (I have a vague memory of my teacher introducing me to a similar technique around 1983- the last time I was studying.)  As you say, true tapping can't work except for stacatto, but I think at high speeds the separation will vanish.  I listened to Gould playing Opus 10 no. 2, and to my ear (not the most educated) that is what's going on.  What I'm hoping is that eventually there will be a near continuum between weighted,stable playing and weightless rapid "tapping."  I am already discovering that to keep the tapping even, I need to keep my forearm quite low, almost as if I WERE supporting the arm with the fingers.  I hope I'm makng myself clear- and I apologize if I've misunderstood you.

Cheers, Sasha

pts, I meant to mention that my whole effort here is NOT to muscle through, even if that's possible.  If i have any success I'll try 10 2; right now it seems beyond my reach.  Thanks again.

I'm speaking of the opposite of armweight. Armweight is both what collapses into a squashed position in the first place and what resists the chance to grow the hand into stability. Move the keys with your fingers and lighten the arm enough to keep growing the arch of the hand into  a stable but connected position. The finger connects the arm, not vice versa. Until you know these positions well, aiming simply to relax and do concise movements can achieve little.

I recommend searching out Richard Beauchamps version of tapping. I found it a far greater test of how well prepped the finger is for action than the approach of tapping the tip itself. It checks that the energy can flow from further back at the knuckle, which is where it actually comes from during playing. Anything goes when you whack the tip direct. Pass energy through every joint  and you'll learn where a flaccid finger is not fit for the job and actually needs to bond better to the key. Tense and over relaxed fingers alike are exposed.

I agree entirely that the separation vanishes, but only when the finger starts in good contact with each key. In the unclear contacts, you may get squashed down and burdened by weight or the finger may stiffen in panic against falling down. Relaxed fingers are a subjective experience that follows a background in clear contacts with their resistance and a well balanced set of knuckles.

[sashaco]

Very sorry not to have read you more carefully, nyiregyhazi. Thanks for taking the time to clarify. 
I think you're certainly correct that for success in this kind of thing the tip must be in contact with the key. From there it can't be over-relaxed or it will not produce much sound.  What feels best to me is the sensation that the surface of the finger is actually compressed a hair against the key before I start to play. Only a sensation, of course. That's one way, at least, of feeling the level of preparation you're referring to, (if I've followed you better this time!).  I can't do that all the time, and probably never will, but it's something to concentrate on in practice.

Thanks, Sasha

[nyiregyhazi]

Very sorry not to have read you more carefully, nyiregyhazi. Thanks for taking the time to clarify.  
I think you're certainly correct that for success in this kind of thing the tip must be in contact with the key. From there it can't be over-relaxed or it will not produce much sound.  What feels best to me is the sensation that the surface of the finger is actually compressed a hair against the key before I start to play. Only a sensation, of course. That's one way, at least, of feeling the level of preparation you're referring to, (if I've followed you better this time!).  I can't do that all the time, and probably never will, but it's something to concentrate on in practice.

Thanks, Sasha

Absolutely. You've understood exactly what I mean. This preparatory state is extremely comfortable and not a bit stiff, but it is absolutely NOT a generic lifeless relaxation and no such state will produce results (at least in Beauchamps version where you place the tap just below the knuckle) . The gould version is rather forgiving of poor finger preparation (which is why I don't find much benefit from tapping the tip itself), but Beauchamps forces you to feel how poorly a drooping inert finger transmits energy- and thus helps tune in to the kind of preparatory bonding that is quite indispensable. For me, passing the energy straight to the tip is basically cheating. I'd rather see how well the finger as a whole is equipped to transmit the power.

The best way to describe the objective difference between tension and readiness is that tension is a generic attempt to immobilise a finger against nothing in particular. Whereas a properly prepared finger is already trying to move the knuckle back up, by acting subtly into the resistance of the key and feeling the reaction to that. You can't over do it without the key going down, so it's just about impossible to make any notable blunder. Of course this, is all irrelevant to accomplished pianists. But for those of us who haven't already learned this state of readiness (through which even a gentle tap causes the key too explode into life, without wasting any of the movement during transmission), understanding the difference between the lacklustre results of literal relaxation (vs a well prepared interaction against the keys resistance) is of overwhelming importance. Striving for inactivity really doesn't cut it.

Btw one other variant I use is to tap the finger and then keep the keys down. Given that most playing doesn't involve instantaneous release, it would crazy not to use the same method to also find efficiency with how keys are held for longer. My fingers never stand quite so clearly yet seemingly effortlessly as when I work this way.

[anamnesis]

Has anyone tried tapping under the the knuckle rather than on top as an adjunct experiment? It can show you, how despite the finger going down, you can feel up and transition to the next note.

Isn't the point also to be able to quickly transition from stability to a feeling of openess and back again? 

I know nyiregyhazi talks about closed chains on his blog, but isn't piano playing  like walking a balance of both an open chain and a closed chain movements?  The problem is how do you quickly transition from one to the other, where you take advantage of both kinematic movement models of both while minimizing the negatives. 

[nyiregyhazi]

Has anyone tried tapping under the the knuckle rather than on top as an adjunct experiment? It can show you, how despite the finger going down, you can feel up and transition to the next note.

Isn't the point also to be able to quickly transition from stability to a feeling of openess and back again? 

I know nyiregyhazi talks about closed chains on his blog, but isn't piano playing  like walking a balance of both an open chain and a closed chain movements?  The problem is how do you quickly transition from one to the other, where you take advantage of both kinematic movement models of both while minimizing the negatives. 

Could you just clarify by what you mean by open and closed chains? I speak of how keeping a chain of joints stretched out at length gives low effort stability, compared to bunched up wrist alignments, but I'm not clear what you mean by an open chain.

[anamnesis]

Could you just clarify by what you mean by open and closed chains? I speak of how keeping a chain of joints stretched out at length gives low effort stability, compared to bunched up wrist alignments, but I'm not clear what you mean by an open chain.

https://www.ptonthenet.com/articles/Closed-Versus-Open-Kinetic-Chain-Exercise-1692

[nyiregyhazi]

https://www.ptonthenet.com/articles/Closed-Versus-Open-Kinetic-Chain-Exercise-1692

Ah, cheers hadn't seen those before. I'm all in favour of freeing from the keys. In pieces with swing rhythms I always get students to break after each longer note in the short-long gestures, in order to prevent any sense of being trapped. My point is that whenever you are in a situation where you are holding notes down as a matter of necessity, you should do so in a way where the finger and arm are all comfortably supported due to a sense of length, without too much weight going into the hand.

It makes sense to learn how to be comfortable in passages where you don't spend any time in lasting connection with the piano, but my problem is with falsely trying to apply the logic of instaneous finger release to places where fingers must actually hold keys down. In such situations, the contact needs to be done in the most comfortable way for the mechanism as a whole. That requires clear contact of a kind that can last. Give that the key stays down, the finger is never literally relaxed. But trying to make it so tends to force the arm to press down or stiffen (to stop the key rising), ruining the chance to get the best overall comfort. It also tends to collapse the hand into a position where the next finger has a far more strenuous job to do, to sound its key. Keeping the hand open through lasting action (that is not resisted by weight) both connects the arm and aids the following finger actions.

[hardy_practice]

https://www.ptonthenet.com/articles/Closed-Versus-Open-Kinetic-Chain-Exercise-1692

"We designate an open kinetic chain a combination in which the terminal joint is free..... A closed kinetic chain, on the other hand, is one in which the terminal joint meets with some considerable external resistance which prohibits or restrains its free motion." - Dr Steindler (Kinesiology of the Human Body under Normal and Pathological Conditions, Springfield, 1955) - See more at: https://www.ptonthenet.com/articles/Closed-Versus-Open-Kinetic-Chain-Exercise-1692#sthash.FunZDVpv.dpuf  

That's interesting.  Presumably, according to the above, you have an open chain as the key descends.  Only as you keybed (not that you should) does it become 'closed'.  I like this Dr Mel Siff.  A smart guy, shame he died so young!

[anamnesis]

"We designate an open kinetic chain a combination in which the terminal joint is free..... A closed kinetic chain, on the other hand, is one in which the terminal joint meets with some considerable external resistance which prohibits or restrains its free motion." - Dr Steindler (Kinesiology of the Human Body under Normal and Pathological Conditions, Springfield, 1955) - See more at: https://www.ptonthenet.com/articles/Closed-Versus-Open-Kinetic-Chain-Exercise-1692#sthash.FunZDVpv.dpuf  

That's interesting.  Presumably, according to the above, you have an open chain as the key descends.  Only as you keybed (not that you should) does it become 'closed'.  I like this Dr Mel Siff.  A smart guy, shame he died so young!

There's a difference between "keybedding" and balancing on the keybed when you are sustaining a note.  Keybedding usually refers to the unnecessary bearing down or "holding" via the arms or fingers as if you were fixated on the keyboard.

It's perfectly possible to balance on the keybed in such a way that maintains stability, yet allows you to feel free enough to quick transition when you need to. 

In any case, the moment you make contact, keybed or not, you are still effectively closing the chain, if only for an instant.  The question is if you are taking advantage of it or not. 

[hardy_practice]

In any case, the moment you make contact, keybed or not, you are still effectively closing the chain, if only for an instant.  The question is if you are taking advantage of it or not.  

Is that make contact with the key or keybed?

Found this through Google not 100% relevant but...:

Regarding the subject: Here's what Matthay said...quoting from his work:

...he goes on to say that "good tone, ease of production and control of tone can only be obtained by gradually pressing the Key into Motion.  Only in this way can you obtain perfect control over tone, good "singing" tone and good quality of tone.  Bad tone, and lack of control over tone, arises when the Key is jerked down by a too suddenly applied impulse."

In his book Musical Interpretation, Matthay talks about the TIME SPOT for each note you play and being aware of this spot is essential in order to play musically and with beautiful sound. You, the pianist INTEND every note you play. that was his Credo.

The time spot is what it's all about.

[anamnesis]

Is that make contact with the key or keybed?

It's hard to define an exact point, but the split second right before you make contact, you should start acting like you are about to close the chain.  Jumping up and down is another example of transitioning between both states. You need to get ready to stabilize to take advantage of the closed chain even before you make contact. The key is to learn how to stabilize without what is really meant by "keybedding".  

Also, aiming for the escapement mechanism/time spot is not the same thing as deliberately trying to avoid making contact with the key bed if you need to hold a note.   

[hardy_practice]

It's hard to define an exact point, but the split second right before you make contact,

That's what is unclear - make contact with what?  keybed?  key?

Still on the Matthay theme, this guy knows a thing or two:

I remember vividly something Myra Hess said in a conversation with me in 1960. She said if I played a chord with great force, there was a reaction not only towards the keyboard, but an EQUAL one coming back towards me. I had to learn to deal with that. She illustrated this by having me push against the piano as if I wanted to move it. I felt what she wanted immediately. It was a big effort, and I had to release my tension
immediately or just fall over half paralyzed. She ended up saying that she always felt the piano key as an extension of her body, and not just an obstacle to overcome.

https://johnkennethadams.blogspot.co.uk/2013_10_01_archive.html

[marik1]

I have spent significant amounts of time on tapping. What I learned is that fifth fingers in particular collapse badly when relaxed and improperly prepped against the resistance of the key.

The evil is in details. The fact you spent significant amount of time on tapping doesn't necessarily mean you did it correct. First, the tapping should be at the nail--then your pinkie will never collapse, to start with. Second, all the idea of relaxation is a fine coordination between accumulating energy, its momentary release, and staying in "stand-by" idle position. That's the same when you walk you never "completely relaxed"--it is always a fine sequence between tension and relaxation.

Hope it is helpful.

Best, M

[pianoplayer002]

The evil is in details. The fact you spent significant amount of time on tapping doesn't necessarily mean you did it correct. First, the tapping should be at the nail--then your pinkie will never collapse, to start with. Second, all the idea of relaxation is a fine coordination between accumulating energy, its momentary release, and staying in "stand-by" idle position. That's the same when you walk you never "completely relaxed"--it is always a fine sequence between tension and relaxation.

Hope it is helpful.

Best, M

I think what n. often is getting at is that this "stand-by" idle position can be maintained in an incorrect, subtly collapsed state that generates tension if you try to "relax" too much/if you don't do it properly.

[hardy_practice]

subtly collapsed state that generates tension if you try to "relax" too much/if you don't do it properly.

How can you relax too much?

[pianoplayer002]

How can you relax too much?

How can you relax too much??

It's a subtle thing I've noticed when experimenting that is difficult to explain in text, but I'll try. Sorry if it's unclear or vague, it's very much related to how I personally percieve it.

If you completely and utterly relax your hand and fingers, imagining it all being completely dead, and put your hand in this dishcloth like state onto the keyboard and try to mash some keys down, the keys pushing up against the dead fingers will cause the body to respond by generating static tension in the muscles. Visibly the arches of your hand will likely be collapsed when trying this. So by trying to relax everything, you actually end up with tension.
If you replace that with a sensation of having your fingertips guide your movements, feeling your finger tips sinking down with the key and resting securely on the keybed, allowing everything behind them to be free and supple as you do this, then the arm can become truly free. You could picture it as a sensation of having very heavy finger tips (ONLY fingertips and nothing else, no pushing down with the arm or hand) resting on the keybed (like you would rest your hand by passively laying it on a table) and everything else floating easily behind them. Being connected to the keyboard this way, when done properly, should allow you to feel a very secure connection to the depressed key, allowing you to swivel around your wrist every which way without any sensation of difficulty or awkwardness or resistance, and without the finger tip leaving its original position on the key. However, to me this feels like doing something, I am moving in a specific way and actively keeping the key down in a way that causes my arm to become free, as opposed to just "relaxing".

It has something to do with how our mind is constructed to percieve and execute movement and I don't have any mathemathical formulas to explain it with. The first method, even though the intention is to be relaxed, generates static tension, the second method generates healthy muscle tonus and freedom.

[hardy_practice]

If you completely and utterly relax your hand and fingers, imagining it all being completely dead, and put your hand in this dishcloth like state onto the keyboard and try to mash some keys down, the keys pushing up against the dead fingers will cause the body to respond by generating static tension in the muscles.

Sorry, I have no idea what you mean by 'mash'.  As soon as you begin to cause keys to go down you will need tension.  Before then your hand can, as you describe, be completely dead.

[nyiregyhazi]

Is that make contact with the key or keybed?

Found this through Google not 100% relevant but...:The time spot is what it's all about.

So how on earth is the idea of abruptly decelerating in the split second after escapement consistent with being gradual and not sudden? I'm afraid I don't see it. Gradual actions gradually evolve you into freedom away from the keybed. They don't involve an attempt to violently withhold travelling momentum within milliseconds.

[nyiregyhazi]

How can you relax too much?

By falling to the floor? How can a "relaxed" penis perform sex? Trying to pass energy through a flaccid finger is as much use.

What marik is forgetting is that overrelaxation of legs is avoided merely because as children we fell over while doing so. We quickly learn that when striving to relax, we must never do so literally. Yet a pianist who overrelaxes a finger does not got any such powerful feedback, they just get a poorly balanced position that can be saved by the arm tensing up. So, while nobody would ever overrelax their leg, abundant numbers of pianist overrelax their fingers with harmful consequences.

To speak of relaxation without clarifying the remainder of activity is absolute poison to numerous players. To this day if I intend to relax my finger I actually do so. Sorry, but these things take clarification and writing potentially harmful advice does not make it better, simply because it takes less words than clarifying the difference between literal relaxation and a suitable preparation of action between finger and key. One works if taken literally, whereas the other is destructive if taken literally.

[hardy_practice]

So how on earth is the idea of abruptly decelerating in the split second after escapement consistent with being gradual and not sudden?

My conjecture would be you've already ended the note in imagination (which is more real that you know, before you've physically started it.  It's a martial arts thing.  Or put another way, the act is a finished conception before there's any action.  The body/mind is that clever, but you want to be the clever one don't you?  Do it all with a blog?  Good luck!

[nyiregyhazi]

My conjecture would be you've already ended the note in imagination (which is more real that you know, before you've physically started it.  It's a martial arts thing.  Or put another way, the act is a finished conception before there's any action.  The body/mind is that clever, but you want to be the clever one don't you?  Do it all with a blog?  Good luck

The quote was not on the martial arts bullshit. It said the action was gradual and not sudden. Hardly consistent with "pulling back on the shot".

[hardy_practice]

By falling to the floor? How can a "relaxed" penis perform sex? Trying to pass energy through a flaccid finger is as much use.

Sheesh, it's not passed 9pm everywhere.  No, the question was how can a hand be too relaxed on the keyboard.  Not a dick!

[hardy_practice]

The quote was not on the martial arts bullshit. It said the action was gradual and not sudden.

Don't know what this bullshit means!

[nyiregyhazi]

Sheesh, it's not passed 9pm everywhere.  No, the question was how can a hand be too relaxed on the keyboard.  Not a dick!

Then try playing a note using your dick, and see if you get more control with or without an erection. Flaccidity doesn't move keys predictably. Bonding clearly with the resistance and then growing is more efficient. When something gives way, the fastest speed produced never reaches the key. It goes into crumpling up, after the sound already occurred with low efficiency. Try a foam hand if you sincerely think this is wrong.

Compression is inefficient, whereas expansion directs speed specifically to the business end. This is why a unprepped finger does poorly, whereas a prepared one makes the key explode with even a light tap to the top of the finger. I don't personally use Gould's tapping of the tip, as it's too easy to transmit force when tapping there- yet little easier to transmit any when the finger takes over. Beauchamp's version (of tapping the finger further back) exposes holes in the connection and gives an instant demonstration of quite how much they spoil energy transfer. If you learn how to do his version, you will learn the fundamentals of how to produce maximum results for minimum effort (which does not happen with a flaccid finger- as any teacher can discover by trying this exercise on inexperienced students with lazy collapsed arches).

Here's a brief film showing a poor fifth preparation, followed by improvement after making it connect well enough to transmit a tap through the whole finger. First it's saggy, drooped and compressed. After, it's opened out and visibly achieving more with less movement. Far from an ideal model, but the difference in what the 5th produces from a more active preparatory connection to the key is hardly subtle. The transmission is simpler, less strenuous and less wasteful. It's far from the simplicity of how an artist like Rubinstein bonds his 5th to the key in advance, but you should see how awful my fifth looks on my old youtube films (in years before I had a hope in hell of transmitting energy through my 5th clearly enough to even fake repeated octaves for more than a few seconds). It's usually an even worse mess of collapse and straining. Generic relaxation intentions are truly poisonous to such symptoms.

p8unw

And here's a close up where an improperly bonded finger droops severely at the knuckle, before bonding better and learning to transmit the energy from a stable and supported knuckle, that doesn't spiral down towards the key (wasting energy in transmission).

p8unw&spfreload=10

[pianoplunker]

Regarding being relaxed allowing you to play faster, I had a revelation once while practicing Revolutionary Etude after downing a beer. It seemed so much more effortless and I could play it back-to-back-to-back (etc.) without getting tired, at speeds that I couldn't have imagined before. Seems like relaxing (rather than tensing up) really does make it work more easily.

Or maybe I was just imagining things with the alcohol in my system...

The beer technique is a well known technique to achieve grandeur at many things in life. The problem is finding a teacher who can show you. when I was practicing I found it important to hold the mug at the precise correct angle as the forearm flexors  would contract. I found I became very accurate to the point of almost no spilling whatsoever. You also have to watch out for redundant beers which can happen if you play some blues. It becomes very difficult to play piano if you are trying to achieve two beers at the same time.

[j_menz]

It becomes very difficult to play piano if you are trying to achieve two beers at the same time.

Solved!

[marik1]

Here's a brief film showing a poor fifth preparation, followed by improvement after making it connect well enough to transmit a tap through the whole finger. First it's saggy, drooped and compressed. After, it's opened out and visibly achieving more with less movement. Far from an ideal model, but the difference in what the 5th produces from a more active preparatory connection to the key is hardly subtle. The transmission is simpler, less strenuous and less wasteful. It's far from the simplicity of how an artist like Rubinstein bonds his 5th to the key in advance, but you should see how awful my fifth looks on my old youtube films (in years before I had a hope in hell of transmitting energy through my 5th clearly enough to even fake repeated octaves for more than a few seconds). It's usually an even worse mess of collapse and straining. Generic relaxation intentions are truly poisonous to such symptoms.

p8unw

And here's a close up where an improperly bonded finger droops severely at the knuckle, before bonding better and learning to transmit the energy from a stable and supported knuckle, that doesn't spiral down towards the key (wasting energy in transmission).

p8unw&spfreload=10

To me both of those videos have no any difference, just because... both of them reveal you are doing it totally wrong--exactly as I suspected and pointed out above. There is no any value in you spending considerable amount of time doing tapping and then "share your experience"... Moreover, it is very harmful for you, as you learn how to play incorrect. Even worse, you give the others the wrong message...

The 6th Rhapsody show is a total mess--you totally miss the right technique for that--as a result it is stiff, druggy, sloppy, lacks charm, lightness, and virtuosity.

Best, M

[pianoplunker]

Solved!

Technology at its best, LOL

[hardy_practice]

Then try playing a note using your dick,

You've lost it my man.  This is neither rational nor civil - it's trash.  So pianoscience becomes pianoporn when push comes to shove?

[pianoplayer002]

Sorry, I have no idea what you mean by 'mash'.  As soon as you begin to cause keys to go down you will need tension.  Before then your hand can, as you describe, be completely dead.

With "mash" I mean trying to get the keys down without finger activity; trying to press down the keys while keeping the fingers "relaxed". Compare trying to push the keys down with completely dead fingers to pushing the keys down with conscious finger movements and a supple arm through the entire movement. The first way might be percieved as relaxed but is ineffective and causes tension.

I don't like the word "tension" because to me it implies stiffness. You need muscle activity that keeps the arm supple. I call it tonus and do not percieve it as tension, and not as relaxation either.