thoughts about the 10,000 hour rule

[cwjalex]

does anyone know of a person who has tried very hard to play the piano but can't for anything other than physical reasons? 

i have a hard time imagining this situation but if someone knows of an example i would really like to hear of it.

[dima_76557]

i couldn't help but laugh when i read that link you sent.  

I could give you links that would make most people cry, but I won't. Just wanted to send you something positive.

if what you say is true then you should be able to point to "winners" and famous performers who have less skill than others that aren't as famous.

YouTube has an abundance of those. Just watch, listen and compare. I can't give any specific examples without possibly offending anyone, so I'll leave it to you to judge.

[swagmaster420x]

Winners have a certain mindset that makes them win all the time, even if competitors may have far better skills. You can learn a lot by observing them. Important is not so much WHAT they do, but HOW they do it; the attitude they have while they do what they do.

How do you define winning?
Asians 'win', I mean completely decimate their competition in math competitions.
Westerners tend to 'win' as in become more accomplished in artistic pursuits.

I would say the two groups are motivated by different mindsets; which is the right one?

[cwjalex]

I could give you links that would make most people cry, but I won't. Just wanted to send you something positive.

YouTube has an abundance of those. Just watch, listen and compare. I can't give any specific examples without possibly offending anyone, so I'll leave it to you to judge.

well i disagree with your definition of winning.  i thought you were referring to actually famous athletes and performers.  I was disagreeing with the idea that simply with a good attitude you can make it into the NBA or become a concert pianist...you need tangible skills.

[swagmaster420x]

YouTube has an abundance of those. Just watch, listen and compare. I can't give any specific examples without possibly offending anyone, so I'll leave it to you to judge.

Is Horowitz someone you would say is a 'winner' despite having less skill than several other less 'winning' pianists?

[dima_76557]

Art, which is above all immaterial, requires personal liberty and experience.

Believe me: most of those who can't seem to manage the craft notwithstanding their enormous efforts and time investments are simply waiting to be "liberated" because craft and art CANNOT be separated.

[dima_76557]

How do you define winning?

Having perfect peace of mind and still be successful in the things you want. It certainly doesn't mean winning prizes in a competition or something.

[cwjalex]

Having perfect peace of mind and still be successful in the things you want. It certainly doesn't mean winning prizes in a competition or something.

so as long as you are content you are winning?  so it doesn't have anything to do with how well you actually perform?

[swagmaster420x]

Believe me: most of those who can't seem to manage the craft notwithstanding their enormous efforts and time investments are simply waiting to be "liberated" because craft and art CANNOT be separated.

Hmm... well I think what I meant to say regarding your opinion was, if I'm understanding your previous posts correctly:

Achieving craft, or improving technique, entails a great deal of effort and frustration.
After you achieve craft you feel freer to mold your ideas artistically. But really the craft is the hard part. So saying that Asian pianists have commendable technique, but are incurably boring because they lack something 'higher,' like 'art,' discredits craft, which is in my opinion more praiseworthy and harder to attain than that 'higher' thing.

[swagmaster420x]

Having perfect peace of mind and still be successful in the things you want. It certainly doesn't mean winning prizes in a competition or something.

I believe 'avoiding losers like the plague' does not lead to perfect peace of mind. Someone with perfect peace of mind would not mind being in the company of unsuccessful people. Someone who wrinkles their nose at people beneath them sounds really unpleasant. But I'm probably missing some specific personal nuance to your interpretation of that quote.

[cwjalex]

Hmm... well I think what I meant to say regarding your opinion was, if I'm understanding your previous posts correctly:

Achieving craft, or improving technique, entails a great deal of effort and frustration.
After you achieve craft you feel freer to mold your ideas artistically. But really the craft is the hard part. So saying that Asian pianists have commendable technique, but are incurably boring because they lack something 'higher,' like 'art,' discredits craft, which is in my opinion more praiseworthy and harder to attain than that 'higher' thing.

dude half the world is asian.  how can you say that every asian pianist is boring? ....

so with a statement like that you can listen to 10 random pianists and pick out just by ear who are asian?

[dima_76557]

so as long as you are content you are winning?  so it doesn't have anything to do with how well you actually perform?

Those who now represent "the top" and those who win one competition after the other are not actually the best performers. The real "winners" don't care about superficial circus.

[swagmaster420x]

dude half the world is asian.  how can you say that every asian pianist is boring? ....

I'm not the one saying that......

[swagmaster420x]

Those who now represent "the top" and those who win one competition after the other are not actually the best performers. The real "winners" don't care about superficial circus.

Yeah ok, your quote has a fairly misleading connotation. It makes it sound like it's referring to the winners who do care about and in fact stake their lives on the 'superficial circus.'

[dima_76557]

Hmm... well I think what I meant to say regarding your opinion was, if I'm understanding your previous posts correctly:

Achieving craft, or improving technique, entails a great deal of effort and frustration.
After you achieve craft you feel freer to mold your ideas artistically. But really the craft is the hard part. So saying that Asian pianists have commendable technique, but are incurably boring because they lack something 'higher,' like 'art,' discredits craft, which is in my opinion more praiseworthy and harder to attain than that 'higher' thing.

It's a pity you single out Asian pianists. I would have liked to avoid that topic because the elements that hamper success are probably the same for all, and Asians don't work much harder than others that are determined. All I am saying is: even if you get all the elements of "craft" right, there may remain other problems to be solved before you can reap the fruit of your toil.

[cwjalex]

I'm not the one saying that......

yeah u are...and even if you claim you aren't saying it you are still giving the statement credence

[cwjalex]

even if you get all the elements of "craft" right, there may remain other problems to be solved before you can reap the fruit of your toil.

The people who are trying really hard to play piano but can't aren't worrying about the artistic aspect of their playing, they would be happy just being able to play something at all.

[swagmaster420x]

yeah u are...and even if you claim you aren't saying it you are still giving the statement credence

Im arguing against that.. like almost the opposite

 I think I remember Dima saying/suggesting something like Asian pianists with great technique are a dime a dozen but they're boring (manufactured by tiger moms, etc.).

And yeah, I can see how it is true that Asian pianists generally focus more on technique, it's just a part of Asian culture to be really meticulous and strict. But I actually believe that they AREN'T boring, and that maybe focusing really hard on technique is a good thing that shouldn't be dismissed. And also, that doesn't mean they have no art, or such a deep focus means they can't 'get' art, OR that they will never amount to those 'true artists' who were blessed with their gifts as opposed to beaten into mechanical players.

[dima_76557]

The people who are trying really hard to play piano but can't aren't worrying about the artistic aspect of their playing, they would be happy just being able to play something at all.

Doesn't make a difference for my hypothesis: They can't reach the goals they set for themselves because something other than "craft" and "know-how" is hampering them. How high that goal is objectively is not important. They may have a typical failure mentality that needs to be broken, for example.

[swagmaster420x]

dude half the world is asian.  how can you say that every asian pianist is boring? ....

so with a statement like that you can listen to 10 random pianists and pick out just by ear who are asian?

Maybe it would make more sense if you changed
 So saying that Asian pianists have commendable technique, but are incurably boring because they lack something 'higher,' like 'art,' discredits craft, which is in my opinion more praiseworthy and harder to attain than that 'higher' thing.

To:
Someone who says that Asian pianists have commendable technique, but are incurably boring because they lack something 'higher,' like 'art,' is being unfair.

[cwjalex]

Doesn't make a difference for my hypothesis: They can't reach the goals they set for themselves because something other than "craft" and "know-how" is hampering them. How high that goal is objectively is not important. They may have a typical failure mentality that needs to be broken, for example.

what i have been talking about from the start are the people who despite hard work and effort aren't able to play...not the people that CAN play but are unable to reach their personal goals...anyway its 4 a.m. and i have to sleep heh g'night

[dima_76557]

what i have been talking about from the start are the people who despite hard work and effort aren't able to play...not the people that CAN play but are unable to reach their personal goals...

The people you were talking about are included in the group I was talking about. It's just different levels, but that says nothing about the core roots of the problem - you want this or that, you have all the know-how to be successful at it, but success passes you by.

[dima_76557]

To give a little more focus to what I was trying to say:

Anyone ever heard about performance anxiety? I maintain that, although many people don't even want to play in public, they suffer from this on their own level, even when no other people are present. The hidden wish and/or expectation of being able ("maybe") to play for others in some distant future in itself is enough to trigger the destructive consequences that go with it and lead to failure. This eats their minds and souls subconsciously and develops ever stronger like a self-fulfilling program of risk panic unless someone is able to break that vicious circle.

[swagmaster420x]

To give a little more focus to what I was trying to say:

Anyone ever heard about performance anxiety? I maintain that, although many people don't even want to play in public, they suffer from this on their own level, even when no other people are present. The hidden wish and/or expectation of being able ("maybe") to play for others in some distant future in itself is enough to trigger the destructive consequences that go with it and lead to failure. This eats their minds and souls subconsciously and develops ever stronger like a self-fulfilling program of risk panic unless someone is able to break that vicious circle.

Hmm, that sounds really interesting and true. So would you say, 'systematic desensitization' where one repeatedly performs for others to try to diminish their anxiety doesn't work, but on the contrary, can even worsen the destructive loop? If that is true, then it is healthy/possible for someone to just step back, take a break, and in doing so 'snap out' of the cycle?

[dima_76557]

Hmm, that sounds really interesting and true. So would you say, 'systematic desensitization' where one repeatedly performs for others to try to diminish their anxiety doesn't work, but on the contrary, can even worsen the destructive loop? If that is true, then it is healthy/possible for someone to just step back, take a break, and in doing so 'snap out' of the cycle?

Deep and sincere introspection (Why am I punishing myself?) + a renewed approach to the activity with a teacher/person who understands those problems. Running away from either won't solve much.

[swagmaster420x]

To give a little more focus to what I was trying to say:

Anyone ever heard about performance anxiety? I maintain that, although many people don't even want to play in public, they suffer from this on their own level, even when no other people are present. The hidden wish and/or expectation of being able ("maybe") to play for others in some distant future in itself is enough to trigger the destructive consequences that go with it and lead to failure. This eats their minds and souls subconsciously and develops ever stronger like a self-fulfilling program of risk panic unless someone is able to break that vicious circle.

.. to elaborate on what I was saying in my previous post..

would you say that to break free, one has to somehow simply lose or stop caring about the wish of being able to play for others, and start focusing on other things?

[dima_76557]

.. to elaborate on what I was saying in my previous post..

would you say that to break free, one has to somehow simply lose or stop caring about the wish of being able to play for others, and start focusing on other things?

Yes. 100% focus on the object of interest with no disturbing or distracting factors.

[swagmaster420x]

Deep and sincere introspection (Why am I punishing myself?) + a renewed approach to the activity with a teacher who understands those problems. Running away from either won't solve much.

I figured running away would be useless. I think psychiatry is actually really helpful. People have been able to help others get over crippling phobias through clinical therapy!

I have experience with the kind of anxiety you mentioned, and it fits exactly in that (probably) the underlying reason I don't do as well is because I wish I would do well. That sort of paradoxical block sounds Freudian, and you never know whether Freudian stuff is merely sophistic bs, but intuititvely it seems pretty close to the truth.

[swagmaster420x]

But then, where do you draw the line between an unhealthy wish to prove oneself capable of success to a desire to show one's passion and ability off to the world?

Is there a difference? I always thought the latter was pretty inspiring.

[dima_76557]

I figured running away would be useless. I think psychiatry is actually really helpful. People have been able to help others get over crippling phobias through clinical therapy!

I have experience with the kind of anxiety you mentioned, and it fits exactly in that (probably) the underlying reason I don't do as well is because I wish I would do well. That sort of paradoxical block sounds Freudian, and you never know whether Freudian stuff is merely sophistic bs, but intuititvely it seems pretty close to the truth.

You don't have to turn to psychiatry and/or Freud to solve this. A good music therapist can be much more productive. One of the "painful" things involved, however, is that the "patient" may have to go back to scratch with the repertoire (deny their own "progress" first), which is something that may be quite tough to chew for some.

[outin]

does anyone know of a person who has tried very hard to play the piano but can't for anything other than physical reasons? 

i have a hard time imagining this situation but if someone knows of an example i would really like to hear of it.

Yes, I do know a couple of such persons. If you have a hard time imagining a situation where hard work is not the answer, then you may not have much life experience in general...

[cwjalex]

Yes, I do know a couple of such persons. If you have a hard time imagining a situation where hard work is not the answer, then you may not have much life experience in general...

you need to re-read what i wrote because it is clear you didn't understand it

[timothy42b]

does anyone know of a person who has tried very hard to play the piano but can't for anything other than physical reasons? 

i have a hard time imagining this situation but if someone knows of an example i would really like to hear of it.

Yes, the family member I spoke of earlier.  Despite several years of lessons and consistent practice, he/she does not play even the simplest things fluently, without the dreaded beginner stutter.  They can also play some harder lesson music, the same way, with those horrible pauses.  And they are aware of it.  Occasionally when I'm at the house I'll play a snatch of a simple hymn or tune and they're always envious of my limited skill.

While my initial impression is that the teacher is at fault (it's one of those music school in the mall places) and that I could identify a couple weaknesses and help them through it, I do not have the arrogance to be sure I'm right.  Part of this problem may be age.  If you get to your 50s without a musical background you may not have formed all the brain connections necessary, I dunno.   

A couple examples from the brass world.  They may or may not have any relevance, I dunno.

I had a friend who was determined to be a trumpet player, wanted to get a performance degree.  She'd done music all her life, was accomplished on keyboard and competent on violin, and taught music at a small college.  She took lessons and practiced diligently, but had a flat blatty tone and no range or endurance.  One day I heard her play a few notes with a solid beautiful tone, very symphonic, rich and with a core.  I commented and she said, "yeah, nothing's working right today, I can't get my lips to work at all." 

The famous brass pedagogue Reinhardt failed to make any progress on trombone for years of hard practice and lessons from the best.  Then after a repair his instrument was returned without the counterweight, which caused him to play at a different angle, and suddenly there was success.  From that experience he was led to analyze embouchures and became famous not only as a player but as a teacher who could fix anybody's chops. 

Two examples of people with a  minor fault utterly stalling their progress, one who fixed it and one who could not.

[bernadette60614]

There's an interesting article in the most recent Scientific American Mind (which I read over coffee at Barnes and Noble) on the "Secrets of Success".  The point of the article is that one of the "secrets" is metacognition (which I think I may be misspelling...), the ability to think about one's thinking.

For a very long time, I practiced by sitting down and playing. It got me to a certain point.  But, I got no further than that point.  I changed teachers and this teacher is teaching me how to practice without touching the piano. I can see in an objective way how my mind is almost observing my own shift in thinking.

I have read only the OP's original post and none of the replies, so forgive me is this has been discussed.  Thanks for the thought provoking post.

[timothy42b]

Another thought.

There are some things we have to do by accident in order to learn.

These might be plateaus to get past, or difficulties to work out, or specific technical skills to master.

You're in a catch-22.  You can't practice them until you can do them.  And you can't do them because you don't know how.  They are subtle enough you can't be told exactly how to do them, or they just require you getting the knack somehow.

Eventually you may produce them a time or too by sheer accident.  If you notice, and if you're lucky enough to occasionally reproduce this elusive event, eventually you figure out how to do it, and you practice it into consistency and then into mastery.

Essentially this requires making a mistake that is actually an advance.  Extremely consistent people may have trouble doing this.

Perhaps some people are just unlucky enough not to ever have the lucky accident.  Others do it right the first time and are mystified why everybody else struggles. 

I suspect most advances in technique happen this way, and that it is not much different from creativity:  the raw material is error. 

10,000 hours assumes a linear growth in skill, but I think the real process is punctuated equilibrium. 

[dima_76557]

May I add another problem that is not generally recognized as a medical problem? Joint hypermobility (weak and over-loose joints), the results of which may lead to very sharp pain when you engage in certain activities.

If you are lucky, all you will hear is a laugh. If not, they'll tell you "it's in your head". You may then (accidentally) find out (for example by reading N.'s blog or by visiting the Music&Health website) that there are ways to limit these problems (e.g. moving your fingers opposite to collapse, movements that are not generally taught by anyone, and that you would have to stumble upon accidentally to even think of), although this does not seem to work equally well for everyone.

Your average piano teacher (and even the general physiotherapist!) does not know how to handle this. Trying to strengthen the fingers to prevent collapse makes matters usually worse because in its root, it's not a muscle problem at all. This problem - if it is severe enough - may very well keep you from ever playing anything that goes beyond largo and adagio.

[outin]

May I add another problem that is not generally recognized as a medical problem? Joint hypermobility (weak and over-loose joints),

Interestingly when I have this in my back, neck and knees it's very much considered a medical issue. But when I have it in my fingers no-one cares.