Scales without the 4th finger

[1piano4joe]

Hi all,

Apparently, the following four (right hand only) scales can be played one octave without the 4th finger.

A flat major, f# harmonic minor, c# harmonic minor and g# harmonic minor can all be fingered with 23123123.

This strikes me as a little weird since I was taught the importance of the 4th finger. I was told this was a good helpful hint to remember scales. I ALWAYS finger those scales 34123123. They are harder (for me anyway) to practice them this way but I like the idea of using the 4th finger once per octave. In addition, I never have any trouble knowing what note a scale starts on.

I make the peace sign with my right hand for the two black keys and the scouts three finger salute for the three black keys. This also fits in with Chopin fingering.

I guess it's just the nature of the beast. There are so many scales where the 5th finger isn't used at all. When it is, it is only to start the left hand or end the right. So, I guess it's not a big deal to not use the 4th finger.

Just curious but which way do most teachers teach their students these four scales? Does it even really matter?

That's all for now, Joe.

[carl_h]

Every scale can be played in different ways so I don't really understand your question.
If you would use 231231... you would use different fingering for each octave. In your example of Ab major: you would start with 2 on Ab and end with 3 one octave up, what's up with that? If you use 4 on F you have the same fingering for each octave.

[nyiregyhazi]

Hi all,

Apparently, the following four (right hand only) scales can be played one octave without the 4th finger.

A flat major, f# harmonic minor, c# harmonic minor and g# harmonic minor can all be fingered with 23123123.

This strikes me as a little weird since I was taught the importance of the 4th finger. I was told this was a good helpful hint to remember scales. I ALWAYS finger those scales 34123123. They are harder (for me anyway) to practice them this way but I like the idea of using the 4th finger once per octave. In addition, I never have any trouble knowing what note a scale starts on.

I make the peace sign with my right hand for the two black keys and the scouts three finger salute for the three black keys. This also fits in with Chopin fingering.

I guess it's just the nature of the beast. There are so many scales where the 5th finger isn't used at all. When it is, it is only to start the left hand or end the right. So, I guess it's not a big deal to not use the 4th finger.

Just curious but which way do most teachers teach their students these four scales? Does it even really matter?

That's all for now, Joe.

I always tell students to include 4 first. Otherwise, the variant is very confusing. In the end, whichever fingering feels comfortable is fine, but they should always learn the normal recurring pattern first.

[1piano4joe]

Hi carl_h,

Thank you for responding.
 
"Every scale can be played in different ways so I don't really understand your question."

I never knew that! ALL the method books I have ever seen and all the teachers I have ever had or known pretty much use the same TRADITIONAL fingering.

Bastien, Pianoadventures, Thompson, Alfred et al. So I don't really understand your response, sorry.

"If you would use 231231... you would use different fingering for each octave."

Exactly, that's my point. I don't like that idea.

"In your example of Ab major: you would start with 2 on Ab and end with 3 one octave up, what's up with that? If you use 4 on F you have the same fingering for each octave."

A very interesting NONTRADITIONAL fingering. Where did you find it?

I am aware that some teachers and books recommend playing all scales with C major fingering of 1231234...for the right hand.

Also, I am aware that Bernhard has a post with more efficient left hand fingerings which enable the left hand to take better advantage of thumb over. He knows TRADITIONAL left hand fingerings are not the best for speed considerations.

I would be most grateful if you could name just one book/source with these many different scale fingerings that you speak of as I am evidently clueless.

Thank you, Joe.

P.S. If it's not too much trouble would you mind posting a few more examples?

Thanks again, Joe.

[carl_h]

Hi,

I cannot provide you with sources or references about different fingerings. I never studied 'traditionally' or had a musical education in an institute. When I said every scale can be played in different ways, well just look at the piano, there are many possiblilities.

You can play legato arpeggio with thumb on black keys, not because you will use this when you can avoid it but because it is great practice for a flexible wrist. Be open for many ideas.

Going back to the Ab major, it might be 'better' to use the 4th finger on Bb so that your hand position is the same as in F minor and 4 on black could be more comfortable.
I would always avoid using different fingering for each octave as in your example of 321321, but this could prove a challenge for the brain which is always good

Anyway, I think knowing your scales is more important than knowing the fingering of each scale. When you encounter a scale within a piece, what is the chance of actually using the 'scale fingering' or using a fingering that works best for the passage?

[timothy42b]

I am aware that some teachers and books recommend playing all scales with C major fingering of 1231234...for the right hand.

But there is no obvious reason to prefer 1231234 over 1234123, is there? 

[anima55]

The scales mentioned DO require the 4th finger as soon as you go beyond one octave.  The very next finger required on note 9 is going to be the 4th finger of the right hand.

Fingers 34 of the right hand would be the pattern of the first two notes of the scale if following the same pattern throughout several octaves, but this is not necessary right at the beginning of the scale because it's easier to use 23.

[timothy42b]

The scales mentioned DO require the 4th finger as soon as you go beyond one octave.  The very next finger required on note 9 is going to be the 4th finger of the right hand.

But.............think about why.

It's not really necessary.  The reason we do it is primarily to have an easily remembered system for  minimizing thumbs on black keys.  Secondarily it helps remember how to match with what the other hand is doing, which I consider unimportant but some here disagree.

We could do all our scales 12345.  That would make five notes flow, but then the lateral shift of the hand is much greater, so it's harder to a) do quickly and b) play all the notes at identical volume. 

We do some standard scales with just 2 fingers, remember.  (chromatics)

[1piano4joe]

Hi timothy42b,

We do some standard scales with just 2 fingers, remember.  (chromatics)

I usually use 3 fingers for chromatic scales but of course I am counting the thumb as a finger. I use 1,2 and 3. When there are two adjacent white keys I use finger number 2.

Do you really use only two fingers or are you not counting the thumb as a finger?

Just curious but which two fingers is this possible with?

Thank you, Joe.

P.S. I have seen an older system where the thumb is designated by a "+". The index finger is #1. The middle finger #2. The ring finger #3. The pinkie #4. There is no finger #5 in this system.

In this system a chromatic scale would be played with only two fingers. They would be index finger #1 and middle finger #2. The thumb "+" would also be used as an additional digit.

That's all for now, Joe.

[timothy42b]

Hi timothy42b,


Do you really use only two fingers or are you not counting the thumb as a finger?

Just curious but which two fingers is this possible with?

Thank you, Joe.

I use the thumb too.  Sorry, had brain cramp. 

[anima55]

But.............think about why.

It's not really necessary.  The reason we do it is primarily to have an easily remembered system for  minimizing thumbs on black keys.  Secondarily it helps remember how to match with what the other hand is doing, which I consider unimportant but some here disagree.

We could do all our scales 12345.  That would make five notes flow, but then the lateral shift of the hand is much greater, so it's harder to a) do quickly and b) play all the notes at identical volume. 

We do some standard scales with just 2 fingers, remember.  (chromatics)

I use three fingers for chromatic scales if practising a scale, but will occasionally use other fingers in certain passages of music, such as 12345 for example, particularly at the end of a chromatic passage.

The idea of using 12345 for scales would be great if you were stopping the scale after 5 notes; the notes would indeed flow.  However there are 7 notes to a scale before repeating the pattern, so the five fingers that we have are best used bearing 7 notes in mind rather than 5. 

In the A flat major scale (and similar in all the scales you have mentioned), when playing the B flat at the beginning of the second octave (9th note) the 4th finger falls naturally.  Evenness of tone is important, yes, but what about legato as you move from octave to octave?

Also I believe using the 4th finger in scales helps to strengthen it.  Why use only 3 fingers when you have the option to use 5?  I advocate developing them all so that they are all ready for use as and when you need them.

Learning fingering patterns isn't that difficult with practise.