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There's "whining" and then there's Whining. (Read 9015 times)

Offline pts1

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There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
« on: November 10, 2014, 06:42:42 PM »
There's "whining" and then there's Whining

                          OR

Is there really life after Jingle Bells?



Hi fellow teachers of the Piano Forte -- Mayla here!

I have discovered something absolutely unique I thought I'd share with you since I have a unique voice and often visualize visions others can't.

As you may know, I've taught a gigantic variety of students for about 14 years, or more precisely 5110 days or 122,640 hours or 7,258,400 minutes!!

I have poured my soul, my essence, my millions and millions of minutes of global and universal and galaxical study, skill and talent into my craft carried out on the Piano Forte -- (though the times spent beading and Origami there don't count)

Why then, I ask in a purely rhetorical sense, can't my 6 year old students fathom the hidden genius gems of "Jingle Bells" and the sacrifice I am making by taking their money to pay my mortgage?

WHY ME? ... (I ask again fortissimo rhetoricalante!)

Don't these little people realize the grace I bring to their lives in spite of the fact that they are holding me back in my life and that I have a right to question WHY THEY ARE DOING THIS!!!???

Do they think I am merely the "milk maid of their muse" as day after day, hour by hour, minute by minute, second by second,  I sit on my metaphorical 3 legged piano forte stool "milking" every ounce of musical value out of their squirmy little bodies?

I have tried, oh have I tried, to impress upon them the pedagogically pedantic importance of realizing Jingle Bells was composed by James Lord Pierpoint in the 1800's when there actually were  "one horse open sleighs" and to ponder if "TWO horse open sleighs would be a equine duet" and to consider the dystopian visions that "dashing through the snow" implies now that global warming has all but eradicated snow and the responsibility these INDOLENT INAUTHENTIC FIRST GRADERS HAVE TO ME AND MOTHER EARTH!!!

What -- ( I ask rhetorically in the third person looking down at my essence from a disembodied God-like angle floating somewhere near the ceiling) -- will Mayla not do for her art?






Offline Mayla

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #1 on: November 10, 2014, 09:01:13 PM »
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #2 on: November 10, 2014, 11:09:37 PM »
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My former student who I met with last week talked about a professor she had who would routinely stop a lecture to explain his life if somebody ever called him "Mr." instead of "Dr." - according to her, he was pompous and thought too highly of himself.  Part of his story was that his first wife left him in the process of him getting his Doctorate Degree because the process was very taxing, and on along those lines to help them understand that there is a difference between "Mr." and "Dr." and just what that difference is.  And, you know what?  I get it.  Do I live it in those exact ways?  Nope, but I can comprehend it and be forgiving instead of thinking merely that he must have been a pompous *ss.

Of course he's pompous. Only an insecure ass would feel so threatened by being called Mr as to insist on asserting his qualifications to people. I pity someone who has so little joy in life that he feels a need to make such a big issue out of his one achievement and press it down everyone's throat. A person of dignity does need to validate themself by forcing anyone to recognise their achievements. It takes a very weak and insecure person to be that way- particularly if he wastes the time in which he is supposed to be teaching, to try to force people to validate him that way. The fact he sacrificed a relationship for it doesn't mean it's any less pathetic to try to force people to address him as Dr. It shows a sad man, who has so little to internally proud of that he is left having to force everyone to acknowledge the one pathetic thing in which he can feel pride.

Offline Mayla

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #3 on: November 11, 2014, 09:10:52 PM »
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline ahinton

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #4 on: November 12, 2014, 01:43:55 PM »
Of course he's pompous. Only an insecure ass would feel so threatened by being called Mr as to insist on asserting his qualifications to people.
There's pedantry here as well as pomposity; were he a surgeon in Britain, he'd likely be offended (if at all) at being called "Dr. " instead of "Mr."!

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #5 on: November 12, 2014, 10:17:57 PM »
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He was/is teaching at a community college, which I understand is not unusual these days.  You could have the best education known to humankind, all sorts of talent and experience, formal accomplishments and recognitions in particular ways, and have given everything you can up (either on purpose or not), to "wind up" teaching somewhere that is truly not fitting.

Evidently that's a case of transference and the above really speaks of how you see yourself. But if that's his reason, for asserting his title, the guy is an utter dick. What that says is that he has no characteristics upon which he feels he can hang his hat as a human being other than his doctorate. Can he earn people's respect by how he behaves? No. So he demands it. It also shows someone who thinks he's too good for where he is and who thinks he's better than this colleagues (who doubtless deserve to be there because they don't have his Phd). So he has to remind people of some stupid piece of paper any time anyone accidentally puts him on a par with his peers, rather than above them- as he wants to be seen. Pathetic. There's nothing worse than losers who are resentful of their place and try to tell everyone they're better and that life should rightfully have put them somewhere better- as if that's meant to raise their status. People who deserve respect just get it by their way of being. Losers try to force people to give it and it's absolutely right that when people try to raise their status with others in that way, the result is that it actually gets lowered.




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as though not having dedicated one's life in certain ways automatically equates to a better life, or one with less music-related stress.  There are problems with being a musical person from the get go and not having the right outlets, just as there are problems with being a musical professional and not having the right outlets.

Tough. There are also problems for those born to be paedophiles. Should we pity them too? How about a guy who builds some of the finest matchstick ships in the world yet who can't find any students to live off? Or the world record holder for tiddly winks? Has that guy been outrageously mistreated by life because he also has to do a dayjob to live? You didn't learn music under the promise of riches and then get cheated out of that. You learned it OF YOUR OWN CHOICE. If you are lucky enough also be in a position to earn off that, you should be pleased. Not whinging about how you aren't having the time of your life whilst also getting paid a good rate, or in a position to receive the very finest students in what is a pyramid scheme. Stop whining and get a grip of yourself. There are loads of people out there who have achieved considerably more than yourself as musicians who are probably far worse off than you. You didn't do your work as musician under the promise of the job you wanted, so you're not in a position to keep whining as if life has cheated you. It hasn't. Nobody promised you that if you worked a bit you would be at the top of the pyramid and your playing doesn't suggest someone who routinely slaved away at the instrument for 8 hours a day (as plenty of musicians had to, to earn their position).

If you want sympathy then learn some dignity and stop whinging about how life has wronged you, in its end of a contract that simply never existed (and which you've actually done pretty damned well out of, compared to other who follow their passions to a far greater level of accomplishment than yourself). Humility almost always earns respect, but people who feel cheated out of what they falsely assume they should be entitled to (and bang on about why they deserve more) will always come across badly.

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #6 on: November 12, 2014, 10:43:09 PM »
There's pedantry here as well as pomposity; were he a surgeon in Britain, he'd likely be offended (if at all) at being called "Dr. " instead of "Mr."!

Best,

Alistair

Is it offence? By returning to a normal "civilian" title, it suggests more to me that such people have enough self-content not to demand that they be addressed by special titles which might single them out from their fellow man. I suppose it could be interpreted in different ways, but when someone says "call me Mr" at least a sense of humility is a possible explanation- given that it's not claiming a high-status title but the everyday one that surgeons happily return to. When someone demands to be addressed as Dr (in any situation outside of a professional one), it's hard not to see them as a dick. My sister has non medical PhD and I'm quite sure she wouldn't introduce herself as Doctor, unless in a professional context where it were relevant- never mind lecture someone about how they must address her. Do people seriously behave this way? It's tragic.

Offline Mayla

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #7 on: November 13, 2014, 12:15:25 AM »
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Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #8 on: November 13, 2014, 01:04:09 AM »
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Just to clarify, this isn't entirely true.  I did not actually feel as though I had a choice, to a very large degree.  I absolutely could not ignore it within me and it would have been massively unhealthy to try to do so, and I would not have had a choice about that, I promise you (because I already know what that was/is like).  As it turns out, I was simultaneously called to think about everything I was doing at the instrument, once I dawned upon a time of treating it like a craft in University, and it was specifically for the sake of helping others.

Yeah. You're like mother Teresa, aren't you. Actually, no. Come to think of it, you're not remotely. If you wanted to help people so badly, there were plenty of other ways to offer something they actually need and want. You chose to help people for rather good money, in something you happened to have already enjoyed in the first place. So learn some *** humility and stop trying to talk yourself up. It's painful to witness. Everyone who pursues something they love felt some need to do so. There's nothing unique there. Most people don't receive ANY reward for the passions they pursue. You learned piano because YOU wanted to- not because it's a noble way in which someone can sacrifice themself to the sake of helping others. If it were truly about finding a way to help the world, you picked one of the dumbest paths through which to be altruistic that anyone could possibly choose. You should have thought ahead before expecting everyone to appreciate and worship you for being so selfless as to "help" the world by offering paid services to those wealthy enough to purchase them (only to disappoint you by having too little ambition to be worthy of what they pay for).

You just want to satisfy yourself by not only getting paid but getting to enjoy your passion in the way which would be most interesting to YOU. There's nothing wrong with wanting something that is evidently desirable, but stop feeling OWED such a thing and stop pretending you're some martyr rather than someone who expects to be granted not only money but pleasure (simply because you took the same route that every other person who chose to pursue music did). If it's all about helping people, offer free lessons to people of enthusiam. If you don't want to do that, drop all this cock and bull about yourself as a poor saint (for hire).


Offline Mayla

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #9 on: November 13, 2014, 01:24:34 AM »
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Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #10 on: November 13, 2014, 01:33:26 AM »
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.  If they don't bother to use it, if they don't feel any sense of meaning about it, and if they don't actually want the help, then that's pretty different.  I have taught at extreme discounts and also for no charge before, because I have been convinced that individuals needed this to be the case - and while it was indeed most likely the case that they did not have the money to put towards something like piano lessons, they also didn't understand that it needed to include them actually utilizing the opportunity to its fullest.  

Or, to put it another way- if they don't give their all to music or improve as you wish, you aren't willing to help any more? Very altruistic. If you don't get interested by what you want, bang goes the idea of trying to help anyone on the level they want (regardless of whether they were being helped) . This isn't about helping people. It's about you wanting to get a chance to feel like some kind of super-guru, for your own satisfaction. If you don't get that, you don't want to help anyone else. You can't force someone to promise to make music their life, just because of a discount. That has to be coaxed out of someone. Not demanded as a replacement for a fee.

There's nothing wrong with wanting desirable things, but the way you try to make your every post about how amazing and noble you are and how disappointing everyone else, is truly sickening.



Offline pts1

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #11 on: November 13, 2014, 02:14:21 AM »

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There's nothing wrong with wanting desirable things, but the way you try to make your every post about how amazing and noble you are and how disappointing everyone else, is truly sickening.

nyiregyhazi

It may help to realize that Mayla/Karli lives in one of the prime liberal "moonbat" states in the USA, namely Oregon. (no doubt this was not her free choice, but a calling whose gravity she could not resist... kind of like a do-gooder "black hole")

American liberalism is largely detached from reality, and liberals suffer largely from white-guilt, and are indoctrinated from birth. They compensate -- sort of -- by always being for under dog causes, regardless how impossible they are or who they harm. As you've noticed they voted the first black man in history to be President -- who has no actual qualifications or experience -- who has taken our country into a miserable state, ruining health care for the majority in an effort built on lies to provide health insurance for the few. This does not matter, its the thought and "feelings" that count and the moonbats love Obama anyway.

So anything they desire for themselves is fictionally counter weighted with fictional justifications that desires for themselves are not really for them but for others, and they wear themselves out with all their pretend altruism and tortured humanity hugging logic.

Unlike politicians, the liberals of which were crushed here in last weeks elections, citizen "moonbats", piano teachers, star gazers, and mystics are not really accountable to anyone, least of all themselves.

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #12 on: November 13, 2014, 02:48:12 AM »
Well, I can't share your disdain for the concept of liberalism, but I can certainly share it towards boasting about being that way, while actually behaving perfectly selfishly in a state of denial. Ever seen Portlandia? I have no problem picturing her in such a world.

Offline jpahmad

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #13 on: November 13, 2014, 03:29:25 AM »
Mayla, why not just stop teaching jingle bells? I don't really see what the problem is.

 I have been doing this teaching thing for quite some time and I have never taught Jingle Bells, or Happy B-day.  Not even Hot Cross Buns!  I teach what I want, when I want, and how I want.  And I get paid for it!  It's frickin' great! 

Offline pts1

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #14 on: November 13, 2014, 04:27:49 AM »
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Ever seen Portlandia? I have no problem picturing her in such a world.

LOL

Yes, I've seen several episodes, and this is precisely what I'm talking about.

Too funny.




PS

The part of liberalism I'm have disdain for is the frequent hatred American liberals have for any opinions that don't align with theirs, and the utter lack of personal responsibility many of them seem to have. At least in the USA, compromise seems alien to this faction of our political system. This from the party that claims to be for the "common man."

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #15 on: November 13, 2014, 07:36:07 AM »
As you've noticed they voted the first black man in history to be President -- who has no actual qualifications or experience -- who has taken our country into a miserable state, ruining health care for the majority in an effort built on lies to provide health insurance for the few. This does not matter, its the thought and "feelings" that count and the moonbats love Obama anyway.

B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline pts1

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #16 on: November 13, 2014, 08:06:58 AM »

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #17 on: November 13, 2014, 08:56:15 AM »
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline Mayla

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #18 on: November 13, 2014, 04:08:16 PM »
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Offline timothy42b

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #19 on: November 13, 2014, 04:16:37 PM »
 

I never said my situation was unique - in fact, part of what I struggle with is thinking that maybe everything is the same for anybody in the world, all the way up the ladder, and that all of life, no matter what a person does, just looks one particular way.  

You would be largely wrong.

Well, you may be right for the majority, but the minority in this case is substantial, and perceives and/or thinks considerably differently.  Of course, without a frame of reference it is impossible to realize that.  Dunning-Kruger may even apply. 

You are an example. 

If you are a reader, I would recommend dipping into some of Temple Grandin's books on autism, or Oliver Sacks's books on a variety of topics.  You will gain a new appreciation for how different some people are from "neurotypicals." 
Tim

Offline pts1

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #20 on: November 13, 2014, 07:32:24 PM »
Tim

How very interesting. I'd never heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

After reading a bit about it, it makes perfect sense.

Dunning and Kruger proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:

 1   fail to recognize their own lack of skill;
 2   fail to recognize genuine skill in others;
 3   fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;
 4   recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they are exposed to training for that skill.

Taking this one step further, I'd say the sociopath is a natural for this "syndrome" and in exception to number 4 above, do not EVER acknowledge their own lack of skill past or present if exposed to corrective training for a lacking skill.

IOW, they cannot be changed, and when confronted will blame a cited inadequacy on someone or something else, as in: "the winner stole the recording of my performance and submitted it, therefore I am the winner."

Offline timothy42b

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #21 on: November 13, 2014, 09:32:21 PM »
 

If you are a reader, I would recommend dipping into some of Temple Grandin's books on autism, or Oliver Sacks's books on a variety of topics.  You will gain a new appreciation for how different some people are from "neurotypicals." 

One point Temple makes repeatedly is how she grew up thinking everyone was like her.  For example, she thought in pictures, not in words, and assumed everybody did.  In fact most people are not like her in many ways.

I've had the same misconceptions. 

Tim

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #22 on: November 14, 2014, 12:51:23 AM »
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I would have taken an honest 30 mins/day, 5 days a week commitment, with attention to what I actually write in their notebook as guidelines and the striving to enact it/them.  And it's true that a musical path, did line up with me and resonated with me as my purpose in life.  

So you crave the chance to force someone else into a similar path- regardless of whether they have the innate enthusiasm for music to make their own decisions in life? That isn't how helping works. A person who is out to help offers something for the benefit of others. It's not to someone's innate benefit to be pressured into practising, merely so you get to feel like the guru you want to be. Someone who is out to help wouldn't make conditions, if truly acting with others in mind. They'd merely offer an opportunity. What you want is to be in control of a person's life for the sake of your satisfaction, or you withdraw the help that they may very well greatly appreciate and benefit from as a human being.

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And, yes, it is to my core that I have the desire to help people, but I have to be in a position of being capable of doing so, which means I also have to take care of myself within the context of how everyday life is currently set up.  

No, you have to be in control. That's not how help works. It's not innate that humans need to be aspiring to lofty musical goals in order to function or be happy. So trying to force them into making music a primary priority in life in return for cheaper lessons is not "helping"- especially if you withdraw them if it doesn't go as you wanted it. You're in it for yourself. What would happen if someone volunteered to help the disabled and then withdrew down the line- citing a failure of the disabled to achieve what he wanted from them as a reason for withdrawing? A person who wants to help doesn't make conditions. A person who wants control over someone and self-satisfaction does. If you don't get what YOU want, you are not willing to help. So drop all this pathetic attempt to tell the world you are saint. That's for others to judge, not yourself.

There's "helping" and then there's Helping. If you're only interested in trying to synthetically force people into a lifelong path of music, you are not a helper. You are selfish person who wants to control others, for self-satisfaction, without consideration of what they want or willingess to assist them on any terms but your own.

BTW- I have one student myself who I always give double time to- not because I'm saint but because I find her interesting to teach. If it wasn't interesting to me, I wouldn't offer the extra time. But the thought of imposing conditions is repulsive to me. I do it because I know she has genuine interest in learning and because she is interesting to work with. That's a fair exchange.

Offline Mayla

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #23 on: November 14, 2014, 04:42:20 AM »
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Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #24 on: November 14, 2014, 04:44:19 AM »
-
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #25 on: November 14, 2014, 07:06:24 AM »
-
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #26 on: November 14, 2014, 09:48:37 AM »
@ nyiregyhazi

I don't know exactly how to put this in words but I feel there may be something wrong with the concept of "helping" as expressed in your post. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.
He tends to try and correct people even if they are correct lol.
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #27 on: November 14, 2014, 09:50:12 AM »
Besides, I think nobody but Mayla has any right to judge or decide what she wants in return for her services.
Don't try and tell a psychotic person what to do, it only encourages them to do the opposite.
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Offline timothy42b

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #28 on: November 14, 2014, 01:07:18 PM »
He tends to try and correct people even if they are correct lol.
But-----------it has never happened that somebody else is correct.
Tim

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #29 on: November 14, 2014, 02:21:59 PM »
@ nyiregyhazi

I don't know exactly how to put this in words but I feel there may be something wrong with the concept of "helping" as expressed in your post. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.

Giving without expecting something in return may seem good theoretically, but I think that in practice, quality helping should by definition be a two-way street if we want to keep the relationship healthy, especially in a teacher-student relationship and especially if there is no agreement upon how long all this one-sided goodness is supposed to last.

Besides, I think nobody but Mayla has any right to judge or decide what she wants in return for her services.

What she doesn't have the right to do is indulge in revolting self-congratulatory hubris. Doing paid work is not noble and neither does imposing tight rules upon a student in return for a discount count as act of altruism. It's an attempt to buy a star pupil. You can explain the correlation between dedication and progress. But you can't just take a beginner and force them to practise half an hour everyday without fail. They have to learn to love the instrument and music first. You can't order someone to do that under threat of taking away their chance to have affordable lessons. That's blackmail of the underprivileged, in a bid to force them into a path against their will, not altruism. She wasn't getting that dedication from those paying full price, so she thought take the chance to try to force less privileged students to obey her. But a child isn't going to be magically inclined to go from nothing to half an hour of work daily, for no other reason than the fact their parents aren't rich. In what world would that make a jot of sense? You cannot force such things under delusional expectations. The child you are teaching is simply an individual who either has the potential desire or doesn't. Having less wealthy parents isn't going to make that child any more likely to have the rare urge to go in full pelt- so it's no surprise that she didn't get what she wanted from an unrealistic self-serving deal. It's just another child- not an extra special opportunity to push someone into dedicating a huge part of their life. How many accomplished musicians do you know who attribute their entry into music to the fact that they were made to feel guilty as a child due to getting cheap lessons?

To achieve excellence at an instrument takes work. But unless someone has serious burning ambition, you can't force it out of them. Forcing less well off students to go straight into an extremely serious practise regime is exploitation, not giving. Students can make meaningful progress early on with far less than half an hour a day. At some point they may grow enough love to decide for themself that they want to do notably more and pursue serious interest. But trying to force a kid from an underprivileged family to either become a star student from day one or receive no lessons at all is the furthest thing from altruism there can be. Neither is it likely to work, because burning desire to dedicate yourself that way is something that usually grows slowly not something that is either innate within a child in their first lessons, or something that can be bought with a half price lesson.



People who are really serious about helping others join the Red Cross. They don't join a profession in which they are well paid to teach privileged children and only give discounts to anyone willing to throw themself into very serious study before they've even had a chance to develop a corresponding love that would justify having to commit a chunk of their every day. Trying to force that prematurely is abuse of power, not generosity. I'm not ashamed to be a teacher who is paid for my time but neither am I going to sit back and watch someone proclaim themself to be florence nightingale for doing things purely on terms that are designed to suit themself.

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #30 on: November 14, 2014, 02:59:51 PM »
What she doesn't have the right to do is indulge in revolting self-congratulatory hubris.
Of course not.  That's your patch!
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #31 on: November 14, 2014, 03:03:56 PM »
Of course not.  That's your patch!

If you'd like to quote any self-congratulatory proclamations of what a wonderful person I consider myself and of how much I consider myself to deserve, by all means do. It's not my bag, sorry.

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #32 on: November 14, 2014, 03:19:09 PM »
hu·bris  (hybrs) also hy·bris (h-)
n.
Overbearing pride or presumption; arrogance:
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline Mayla

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #33 on: November 14, 2014, 03:37:45 PM »
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #34 on: November 14, 2014, 04:08:57 PM »
Sorry, ngzi, but why would anybody go into teaching at all, ever, without a desire to help people?  It's not about being a saint, that's just a given to what the gig of teaching is about.  And piano playing is a skilled craft, where certain forms of knowledge can be of greater help at the right time for the right student(s) than other forms of knowledge.  If a teacher is teaching but has no fundamental desire to share or help their students, then they shouldn't be teaching.  I have said from the get go that I would simply like more balance in my studio, and to have the opportunity to help (some of) my students using more specialized knowledge that could make an impact in the skilled craft of playing.  Sometimes I would like to not be primarily the one who is just there to introduce the instrument and music, but also the one who utilizes knowledge -even specialized knowledge- about the craft to help (dare I say it?) take a student's already existing commitment and desires to a next level.  There is nothing wrong with that.  

Sometimes you are an example of the type of individual that I feel burnt out about in the profession, though I still appreciate the opportunity to think through what's going on in my head.  It's unfortunate that I can't do that with a trusted teacher/individual.  As it turns out, aside from considering a new career path altogether, yesterday it became apparent that I may be able to make a change within the career of music.  So far, I am not convinced the change within music -though in some ways quite a big change- would be change enough.

You missed the point entirely. There's "helping" and Helping. Only being interested in helping people in a way that interests you does not put you on a par with the real helpers or the world. It means that you do the job you are paid to do properly, rather than grossly incompetently. Should someone who works on a till think of themselves as "helping" people-for putting the groceries through rather than spitting on the customer? There's "help" and there's Help. Helping students as a teacher is what you are SUPPOSED to be doing, not some rare or amazing thing.

The fact I try to help people while getting paid to do so is not something i deserve to place myself on some pedestal for. And if they didn't actually want the type of help that I was trying to give them but a different kind, I wouldn't be helping them at all. Above all, if I were to try to blackmail underprivileged students into having to work to a level that is unnatural without already coming from a place of WANTING to dedicate themselves to music, I wouldn't be helping them one bit. I'd be controlling them for the sake of fulfilling my own desires. That's "helping".

Offline Mayla

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #35 on: November 14, 2014, 04:32:23 PM »
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #36 on: November 14, 2014, 04:47:54 PM »
No, it's not about controlling them, it's about this being *my* business and setting the parameters in my own life to create something that functions properly for everybody involved.   Whatever I am doing in my business has to still work for me and my household in order for me to be capable of working for them.  If I generally let everybody pick and choose all the rules, I would not have a business at all where I can offer a service.  That's just business.  And I can choose a business where it is designed to be helping somebody, and in specific ways, or I can choose a different kind of business.  If I can see that it's not going to be possible to run a business solely teaching Bach Inventions, for example, then no matter how you cut it, I'm going to have to run a different business if I want to survive, even if I call it the same thing.  And if it's a different business, then it's a different business.  While there are aspects of my business that I do in fact enjoy, if my aim is to be in the business of offering a service that potentially helps people in specific ways with music -or at least includes aspects of it- and I can see that it's not happening or cannot ever happen, then I am already running a different business than what I intended and need to make a choice about whether to continue or make a change.  

You can set terms as you please. But don't expect to be able to force the enthusiasm required for a beginner to do thirty minutes per day under threat of having lessons discontinued- and don't think that such terms count as altruism. They don't. The real helpers in life don't ask what's in it for them. Giving is unconditional. Think twice before giving yourself such outrageous pats on the back in public.

You want good students because you'd like to work with them- not because of generosity. Writing an essay that implies you're like a missionary who went to build a water supply for a village yet was rejected will not make fate bring you the students that you think you deserve. Stop trying to rationalise proof that fate has cheated you and get on with thinking about how to earn what you what, rather than telling the world you are a wronged saint. Or learn to accept the world as it is, through objective vision.

Offline ahinton

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #37 on: November 14, 2014, 04:52:14 PM »
Giving is unconditional.
Might that by chance include giving it a rest?...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #38 on: November 14, 2014, 05:01:50 PM »
Might that by chance include giving it a rest?...

Best,

Alistair


I didn't claim to be giving. I'm just tired of the hubris.

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #39 on: November 14, 2014, 05:03:07 PM »
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No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #40 on: November 14, 2014, 05:06:39 PM »
I'm just tired of the hubris.
In that case stop posting!  Give us all a rest.
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #41 on: November 14, 2014, 05:17:44 PM »
Hmm... I wasn't exactly thinking about "star pupils". Those don't need to be "motivated" anyway.

I was simply suggesting requiring good old "effort" from the very start, regardless of whether they pay or not. I understand that's an old-fashioned word with a negative conotation nowadays in some circles, but it would certainly be my guideline. It will be clear in a few lessons whether they put effort in or not. If not, there's the door. Simple. Teach them how to learn (do it in class with them if necessary) and then wait for the results to happen. Even if the results aren't exactly great, a good teacher will notice if they worked regularly or if they started doing homework that was assigned last week just before class (virtually no effort at all). I don't think a teacher who allows that to happen is a good "helper", paid or unpaid.

P.S.: Accepting only more advanced pupils/students or those who really need help (physically or psychologically) is also a very good business option. At least they know what they come to the lessons for.

Nobody is denying the role of effort. But no teacher can impose such strict terms of half an hour per day on beginners. If they do, they'd better be damned good. If the few students they don't eject don't get a spectacular service, such enthusiastic beginners will be looking for better teachers. They'd need a proven record of producing elite students. It's outrageous to think that there's any innate reason why the fact a child has poor parents would make them willing to follow such a strict regime from the very start. We're talking about a regular child starting piano who has no reason to pledge quite so much to music. Not someone who can be forced into a path of extremely devoted study, by a power-crazed teacher who wrongly expects to buy themself an unusually high achieving student in return for a discount.

PS. Few have the expertise for the retraining route. There's little point in trying to stick to advanced students unless the teacher is truly in the elite and thus able to provide a good enough service to satisfy advanced requirements.

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #42 on: November 14, 2014, 05:32:05 PM »
-
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline Mayla

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #43 on: November 14, 2014, 05:49:33 PM »
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline mjames

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #44 on: November 14, 2014, 06:37:30 PM »
It's amazing how most of you guys waste your time arguing about stupid sh*t.

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #45 on: November 14, 2014, 08:14:43 PM »
So, let's say you were considering karate lessons. You go along and are told that you must commit thirty minutes daily or probably won't achieve anything, as karate requires commitment. Who the hell commits that to something they haven't even developed a passion for yet? It's like accepting a marriage proposal from a stranger on the Internet. Commitment is earned through inspiring dedication. Not enforced by contract upon a beginner. You don't have to force people into advanced commitments from day 1,in order to convey that advanced playing requires something extra.

If you have no wish to give discounted lessons to ordinary students then fine. Neither do I. The point is that I don't go banging on about what a wonderful helping person I am on the mere basis that I like to help students DURING TIME IN WHICH THEY ARE PAYING ME TO DO EXACTLY THAT!!! If you don't want to give your time cheaply without knowing there's something in it for you then don't. But what you are talking about is trying to take a blank canvas and force it onto the path of being a Van Goch. If that's what you require to give a discount, then don't offer one to a beginner. Conditions will not make anything happen. If you are only willing to give anything up in a situation where you get what you want, you need to do so on the basis of first seeing the qualities that you will get something out of. You can't force those qualities to evolve in an everyday child by trying to make them feel obligated about something that they have not even had a chance to develop a passion for. Guilt will never replace inclination.

Offline timothy42b

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #46 on: November 14, 2014, 08:25:57 PM »
30 minutes does not exactly sound that draconian.  Basically you're telling them if they want their money's worth, this is what they need to do. 

Here's a decades article by a noted brass teacher:

Quote
If you practice the trombone for 2-3 hours weekly (six half-hours, whatever), you will slowly learn the notes and some rhythms. You can develop a fairly nice midrange sound if you simulate a good example, like a teacher. You can have fun. Many beginners, junior high trombonists, and some high school players practice this way.
 
(And I’m not counting ensemble rehearsal time in this. It does not really count. Well, yes it might build your endurance, you can memorize the field show, and you learn a lot about playing with other musicians, how to act, how to follow a conductor maybe, how to take directions. But this is not the same as the skills gained in the practice room.)
 
If you will practice 5-6 hours a week, you can actually make some slow progress if you manage that time very carefully. You will probably find time to do a more comprehensive warm-up routine. You can actually, probably, get material Ready To Play in a lesson, learn the studies well enough to play them with no reading mistakes, no hesitations, few errors. You may find time to work on the band parts. There may also be a little time available to truly Practice some of the Plain Technical Work, maintenance, that we should all try to do: extensive flexibility routines, scales and arpeggios galore, the weird keys, dynamic workouts, etc.
 
If you can get the practice hours up to ten, week after week (40 a month), you will notice some important and valuable developments in your playing. You will become more “fit.” You can handle 5 or 6 books at a time, or more. There will be more time to regularly address things the Little People often neglect: air exercises, tunes by ear, high and low range, some jazz, recording yourself, clefs, the outside keys, real sight-reading, duets with peers, tough etudes, audition materials, orchestral excerpts, jury solos, vibrato, quality time with pianists. Your reading will really improve! You won’t be sore the day after a big blow. You can use the metronome, mirror and tuner properly. Do dozens of routines of flexibilities, scales, arpreggios. If you find something really hard, there is time to work it out, and work it up. There will be time to solve any bad playing habits. You will be thinking about trombone while you sleep! You’ll be quite proud of your playing and your progress. You will deserve to Get Some Work.
 
If you will develop the stamina to really practice 15-20 hours a week, then you get All Of The Above PLUS you’ll tear through the literature much quicker, build a repertoire after a while, learn tunes and the changes, progress quickly with unusual techniques, review old material, be a serious competitor at professional auditions, and much more.
 
If you cannot do this . . . well, the benefits will be elusive. Know that there are students all around the country practicing 20+ hours a week. You will meet them, at the audition. There will be one winner.
 
(Some other instrumentalists will find these numbers a bit low; and maybe they are low. Ambitious pianists and string players devote much more time to practice, because they can.)
Tim

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #47 on: November 14, 2014, 08:59:23 PM »
30 minutes does not exactly sound that draconian.  Basically you're telling them if they want their money's worth, this is what they need to do.  

Here's a decades article by a noted brass teacher:



For someone who loves playing and has advanced enough, it isn't. But show that to a beginner who has not developed a passion that would be a source of motivation and they'll run a mile. It's as good as telling them not to bother wasting their time. Early on it pays to make students aware of the correlation between practise and progress. But when you portray half an hour per day as a bare minimum for progress, you're closing a door, not leaving one ajar for them to discover.

Btw I know loads of people who did way less than that yet reached a good enough standard for orchestras and brass bands.

Offline Mayla

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #48 on: November 15, 2014, 12:25:33 AM »
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline pts1

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Re: There's "whining" and then there's Whining.
«Reply #49 on: November 15, 2014, 01:21:44 AM »
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Oh, and could I watch their chickens and dog while they go on vacation to the family cabin in the mountains of CA? 

I would have DEFINITELY drawn the line at watching the chickens!

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Also, you know, I haven't purchased new clothes in ages.  I don't get my hair cut anymore.  I can't even invest in the real deal of my own lessons anymore.  I don't go to concerts, I don't buy music, I don't buy books (unless I've accrued enough points to not have them formally cost anything through Amazon) I'm still paying off loans from my undergrad.  We very rarely go out to eat and I'm building a garden so as to provide food for the household that is more independent.

This is bad... bet you voted for Obama who is a natural enemy of capitalism. People aren't going to pay for piano lessons when they can't eat.


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I make a point not to turn on the heaters and to shut off every light.


This is good.... you are doing your part to battle global warming and living the all-natural life of the true Oregonian!

In India they burn dung for heat, but I bet chicken poop would work too.