Waltz Op. 42 finger legato/help

[mjames]

Revisiting the piece after quite a few months , I can focus more on the music now that I'm done "learning" the piece, time to study it!
The answer is probably obvious to you guys but I'm wondering if you guys also think that during certain sections in the piece it's ok to avoid finger legato. Sections such as the first page and a half(schirmer edition, by some polish dude) of the piece, it feels strenuous and straining to practice using finger legato; especially if I increase the tempo. Is my thought process is wrong, then why is it? Hand positioning? Fingering? Also noticed in other pieces that the editor's fingerings favor hands bigger than mine, so I usually avoid some of his suggestions but in this piece everything feels comfortable except for a few places.


If the answer is that I should avoid finger legato for that section, then how do you suppose I make the upper notes sing without messing up the phrase? When I avoid finger legato to avoid strain, the phrasing seems to weaken when I enter a new measure. Can I keep the musical line flowing if I pay more attention to the dynamics of the upper notes? It's what I'm doing atm but Idk if it's correct.


I know it's hard to give advice through the screen so I'll definitely be posting a recording soon so that I can get more advice. Thanks in advance.

[j_menz]

schirmer edition, by some polish dude

Kullack (German, though closest to polish), Mikuli (Armenian) or Joseffy (Hungarian)?

Do you mean the legato of the (un)dotted crotchets, or the legato overall? 

Those crotchets aren't dotted, btw, which should answer your question.

[mjames]

Kullack (German, though closest to polish), Mikuli (Armenian) or Joseffy (Hungarian)?

Do you mean the legato of the (un)dotted crotchets, or the legato overall?  

Those crotchets aren't dotted, btw, which should answer your question.

My bad, Hungarian. No idea why I thought he was Polish. The legato of the melodic line...

Actually what you said makes sense. No idea why I'm over-thinking it. I feel in the middle of the first part the melody just gets blurred in with the rest of the notes. I guess I'm just going to work on making it more audible. I'll see what i can do

[j_menz]

I guess I'm just going to work on making it more audible. I'll see what i can do

That's an essential first step. Once it really sings out, you'll have much more control over it - until it does, it is a sign you're not really in control of it.  This one can be more challenging than it first appears as the melody is actually a (2) polyrhythm against the 3 of the waltz rhythm.

[mjames]

That's an essential first step. Once it really sings out, you'll have much more control over it - until it does, it is a sign you're not really in control of it.  This one can be more challenging than it first appears as the melody is actually a (2) polyrhythm against the 3 of the waltz rhythm.

Haha, holy crap! No wonder it felt so weird to play it a few months ago. It is quite deceiving. Sneaky!


And DUDE, I just read the message! You got me a recording of Medtner's variations!!!!!!! *** THANK YOU!

[j_menz]

And DUDE, I just read the message! You got me a recording of Medtner's variations!!!!!!! *** THANK YOU!

I merely highlighted the inadequacies of your googling. Anytime. 

[amytsuda]

I feel in the middle of the first part the melody just gets blurred in with the rest of the notes.

I can't figure that out either. I've been thinking it must be my pedaling that is making everything muggy with the rest of the notes. Any tip on the pedaling?

[j_menz]

I can't figure that out either. I've been thinking it must be my pedaling that is making everything muggy with the rest of the notes. Any tip on the pedaling?

Don't pedal and see if the problem goes away. If it does, add it back in lightly and gradually. If it doesn't, it aint the pedalling.

[amytsuda]

@j_menz, good point! I will try and pay more attentions if it is the case without pedaling. I agree I should always practice without pedaling... no access to piano for a week, can't wait to go home and try....

[mjames]

PLAY it really REALLy slowly and place heavy emphasis on the melody. Try to sing along if you want, and yeah practicing without the pedal is a great idea. It's working for me. Right now I'm satisfied with how clean it can sound when I play it below tempo...feels like it's going to take longer for me to get comfortable at a higher tempo. No problem, I don't need to rush!


His e minor op. 17 mazurka is a delight to practice...

[faulty_damper]

Finger legato referring specifically to keeping the fingers in contact with the keys?  If so, don't even bother with it.  Also, I strongly urge against practicing senza pedale since this will reinforce poor movements that will strain your hand even further.  It's like trying to speak without breathing.

[awesom_o]

Also, I strongly urge against practicing senza pedale since this will reinforce poor movements that will strain your hand even further.  It's like trying to speak without breathing.

Practicing without pedal will develop good habits, and is nothing like 'trying to speak without breathing'. 

Many people pedal poorly, and practicing without pedal is one of the greatest ways to remedy this!

[faulty_damper]

Practicing without pedal will develop good habits, and is nothing like 'trying to speak without breathing'. 

I disagree.  Practicing without pedal forces finger legato when it's not necessary when using the pedal.  As obvious examples, many left hand pieces requires pedaling and trying for finger legato simply will not allow anyone to play them.

Many people pedal poorly, and practicing without pedal is one of the greatest ways to remedy this!

I do not make that assumption about the OP, and that's just the most ridiculous things you can possibly say.  "You suck at writing so don't practice writing so you'll get better."  Sure you will.

[awesom_o]

 "You suck at writing so don't practice writing so you'll get better."  Sure you will.

Of course, writing and pedaling a pianoforte have absolutely nothing to do with each other, so your analogy is a foolish one. 

[awesom_o]

A much better analogy has to do with string players and the use of vibrato.

Many novice players use vibrato in an attempt to cover up poor quality intonation, rather than using vibrato in the correct way, i.e. to increase the beauty of their sound tastefully in an appropriate manner. The result of this misuse of vibrato is that their playing sounds mediocre, and unlike the playing of a true master. The solution is not to blame their vibrato and try to improve their ability to vibrate; instead, the solution is obviously to improve the quality of their sound WITHOUT vibrato, by practicing senza vibrato, and by doing so, their problems soon diminish.

 

[j_menz]

People generally pedal poorly because they do not (a) know quite what the pedal does and is capable of (and what it isn't), and (b) what they are trying to achieve with it at any particular point.

Further, the pedal can in fact "hide a multitude of sins" as one of my piano teachers used to say. This is a good thing if it is in fact the best way to overcome those sins, but a bad thing if it prevents one from correcting what should be corrected. If the pedal is disguising things that really should be corrected, practicing them without pedal is essential.

[faulty_damper]

But again, I do not make that assumption about the OP.  If he does have pedaling issues, that's an entirely different issue than the one he's asking about.

As for how I play this waltz, I do not use finger legato.  My hand in entirely relaxed throughout.

[j_menz]

But again, I do not make that assumption about the OP.  If he does have pedaling issues, that's an entirely different issue than the one he's asking about.

Perhaps you should re-read the thread. I said nothing to the OP regarding the use of the pedal. However, since you injected your idea that pedal free practice had no useful purpose I felt inclined to interject to show that it, on occasion, does.
 

As for how I play this waltz, I do not use finger legato.  My hand in entirely relaxed throughout.

A late entry in the non sequitur of 2014 competition?