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Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do? (Read 12564 times)

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #50 on: September 08, 2015, 02:17:41 PM »
It's a good thing learning music and motivation is not a 'one size fits all'.  I would have gagged if I were forced to have studied guitar--- but piano, cello, AH!!  .. and yes, I was more 'than 'exposed'
Each one of us is different.

sometimes two people can take lessons from the same teacher...  one will learn to play the other won't---is it the teacher's fault? the system?

motivation is everything..  and I was "immersed" not just exposed.    ;D

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #51 on: September 08, 2015, 04:01:31 PM »
I have been reading Jelly Roll Morton's memoirs and I came across this about his experience with teachers in the late 19th and early 20th century.  Seems it wasn't so great back then either...


I taken lessons. I tried under different teachers and I’d find that most of them were fakes, those days. They couldn’t read very much theirselves. During that time they used to have, er, in the Sunday papers different tunes come out, and when these tunes would come out, it would be my desire to have to play these tunes correctly.

At the time I had a coloured teacher by the name of Mrs. Moment. Mr. Moment was no . . . Mrs. Moment was no doubt the biggest ham of a teacher that I’ve ever heard or seen since or before. She fooled me all the time. When I’d take these numbers and place in front of her, she would rattle them off like nobody’s business. And at about the third one she rattled off sound like the first one. Then I began to get wise and wouldn’t take lessons any further. Then I demanded I would either go by myself and learn the best way I knew how, or be placed under an efficient teacher, which I was then placed under a teacher at the St. Joseph University, a Catholic University in, in the city of New Orleans.


Jelly Roll Morton

Offline dogperson

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #52 on: September 08, 2015, 05:23:35 PM »
Quote from: dcstudio link=topic=56999.msg636642#msg636642 date=14417218  61
sometimes two people can take lessons from the same teacher...  one will learn to play the other won't---is i.t the teacher's fault? the system?

motivation is everything..  and I was "immersed" not just exposed.    ;D

As an example of  the same teacher and the importance of motivation and progress with piano lessons:  my sister and I took from the same teacher.  I  LOVED playing, taking lessons and practice.  She HATED it....  thrive and wilt based on motivation.  Same family, same teacher. 

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #53 on: September 08, 2015, 05:47:59 PM »
As an example of  the same teacher and the importance of motivation and progress with piano lessons:  my sister and I took from the same teacher.  I  LOVED playing, taking lessons and practice.  She HATED it....  thrive and wilt based on motivation.  Same family, same teacher. 

just out of curiosity... does your sister ramble on about how she could have been better than you if she'd had a better teacher?   

is she jealous?  ;D

Offline dogperson

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #54 on: September 08, 2015, 07:41:27 PM »
just out of curiosity... does your sister ramble on about how she could have been better than you if she'd had a better teacher?   

is she jealous?  ;D

Oh my God, NO!  She kissed the ground when she was allowed to quit lessons and has had no desire to ever touch a piano again.  No wistful thinking there, on any level..... over 40 years later. 


Offline dcstudio

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #55 on: September 09, 2015, 12:57:50 PM »
Oh my God, NO!  She kissed the ground when she was allowed to quit lessons and has had no desire to ever touch a piano again.  No wistful thinking there, on any level..... over 40 years later. 



wow... so...you mean she tried it...  and she DIDN'T LIKE IT...  and that's why she quit?  amazing--so it's not the teacher's fault, or the system of teaching music-- students actually quit piano because they just don't like it? ...amazing!  ...and they don't regret it for the rest of their lives..?  they live normal healthy happy lives without ever feeling like they missed something--in spite of the fact that they failed at the piano...?

... :o it's mind blowing

Offline dogperson

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #56 on: September 09, 2015, 06:56:28 PM »
wow... so...you mean she tried it...  and she DIDN'T LIKE IT...  and that's why she quit?  amazing--so it's not the teacher's fault, or the system of teaching music-- students actually quit piano because they just don't like it? ...amazing!  ...and they don't regret it for the rest of their lives..?  they live normal healthy happy lives without ever feeling like they missed something--in spite of the fact that they failed at the piano...?

... :o it's mind blowing
Amazing but true...  please note my sister did not consider this a FAILURE but a SUCCESS-- she was eventually allowed to give up piano.   Motivation, indeed, is everything.   :)  I would have had the same response to guitar or mountain climbing,...   or, and..     this is a quite a longer, different topic of assessing a child's motiviation and interest.   

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #57 on: September 09, 2015, 08:23:13 PM »
  I would have had the same response to guitar or mountain climbing,... 

yep---that's the way I was in dance... I rejoiced when I was allowed to quit.   I wonder if dancers have this same hangup--I could have been better but I had poor instruction... I was taught wrong and that's why I didn't make it on Broadway

Offline falala

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #58 on: September 09, 2015, 09:58:39 PM »
Are you suggesting that how well or badly people are taught DOESN'T affect their likelihood of success?

Offline falala

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #59 on: September 09, 2015, 09:59:36 PM »
I have been reading Jelly Roll Morton's memoirs and I came across this about his experience with teachers in the late 19th and early 20th century.  Seems it wasn't so great back then either...

What wasn't so great? The fact that some bad teachers existed?

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #60 on: September 09, 2015, 11:41:03 PM »
What wasn't so great? The fact that some bad teachers existed?

I do apologize you seem to be entering a conversation I was having with dogperson... it's an inside joke... ;D

Offline keypeg

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #61 on: September 10, 2015, 05:48:34 AM »
The long quote of Jelly Roll Morton and comment was meant as an inside joke, in a private conversation with dogperson?

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #62 on: September 10, 2015, 05:18:09 PM »


no actually within the context of this string...


come on Keypeg...  please... you know exactly what we are talking about.

the jelly roll morton comment was a reference to someone who says that they did things so much better in the 19th century that's all.   His teacher was a fake...

I actually thought our "friend" would find that amusing.









Offline keypeg

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #63 on: September 11, 2015, 05:47:32 PM »
Thank you for explaining, dctstudio.

Well first, when you wrote about Jelly Roll Morton, you were not quoting dogperson, so there was no way of knowing that you were in conversation with dp. You have now explained that it had to do with an idea that was posted a while back about conditions in the 18th & 19th century, but neither you, nor dogperson, had discussed those ideas in your previous posts.  When that particular post came along, it was essentially ignored by everyone, so it was not a topic.

But in the post prior to the one about Jelly Roll Morton, where you did respond to dogperson, you asked the open question of whether these things were ever the teacher's or system's fault.  The idea that both of you were entertaining was that the factor at play, was motivation.  If a student is not motivated to learn a given instrument or art, then it's not a matter of the teacher or the system, but a matter of what the student wants to do instead (motivation).  Those were the types of ideas you and dp were discussing.

Then in the next post we Jelly Roll Morton.  Given the previous question - is it ever the teacher's fault - it seemed to me that you were answering.  I read it as: Yes, it can be the teacher's fault because there are bad teachers, and there always were bad teachers.

Offline keypeg

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #64 on: September 11, 2015, 05:48:35 PM »

come on Keypeg...  please... you know exactly what we are talking about.
I have now explained what I did understand, and why.  So no - I had not.

Offline louispodesta

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #65 on: September 12, 2015, 10:27:37 PM »
I have now explained what I did understand, and why.  So no - I had not.
"keypeg," I deeply appreciate your attention to detail.  It means a lot.

Next, as a scientific empiricist philosopher, I took the Jelly Roll Morton quote and I related this new finding to a highly degreed classical pianist, who is worldwide in stature.  He has also spent the last 35 years of his life as the top jazz pianist in Austin, Texas.  I will not mention his name because I do not have his permission to do so.

Over a year ago, I telephoned him, briefed him on my news story, and then asked him whether an adjunct theory to my thesis was correct.  That was:  did the Black/Afro-American pianists of the early 20th century pick up their [rolled chord/modified tempo method of playing] from their local piano teacher?

His directly reply was that no they did not, and that they picked it up on their own naturally.  Before, I made my new argument, with the new quote, I mentioned to him that I had prior extensive knowledge of the birth of the Black Middle Class.

So, thank you all, especially "dcstudio."  Thank you, thank you, thank you.

As I am in the final stages of production for my worldwide dissemination of my news story, I can now use this information to further support my argument.  Thank you.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #66 on: September 13, 2015, 01:40:32 AM »
I put that up there for you Louis...I thought you would find it funny...I am so glad you got more out of that--Cool  ;D    I was reading JRMs interviews from the library of congress because I am doing a ragtime concert in the spring where I will have to speak about the composers and their contributions to jazz and all that...   He was quite a guy, Jelly Roll Morton... I have been playing some of his music..


that's awesome I am glad I could help. :)  lol... don't worry you don't have to give me any credit.

Offline keypeg

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #67 on: September 13, 2015, 04:53:31 PM »
Getting at the issues:

The one story apparently went back to the post that Louis wrote, which didn't really get any response at the time.  When I read that post, the main points to my mind were:
- that effective study would also include theory and composition (not just playing assigned pieces as well as possible week after week)
- a concrete addition to this, which this time round was the idea of an acoustic guitar, though previously I have also seen choir being mentioned.

The core ideas that I get from this are that of gaining an understanding of music.  Theory alone can be reduced to the shoving around on paper of little circles in order to pass exams or get checkmarks in a workbook, which is rather useless.  Working less abstractly in some way, such as the acoustic guitar or the choir, plus trying to compose, together with the theory, rounds this out.  Then when the instrument is played, which also involves playing a composer's works, then it is done with some degree of understanding.

There was a time a few years into the first time I ever had lessons on an instrument, that I did exactly that kind of about face.  It began with asking for theory, and also asking for it to be made real in some manner.  This was a student groping along the feeling of "something is missing" and it was the beginning of my present journey.

This core idea is quite valid and important.

The problem is that it gets side tracked by the question of whether in the 18th - 20th century "the whole world" had the described ideal music education.  Obviously the aboriginal in Australia was not studying Western composition 300 years ago - he was busy making music according to his culture and traditions.  Nor were all classes of society in Europe privileged to have that kind of instruction.  It is a narrower group of people who did so.  Nor were all teachers good teachers at any period of history.  Humans and society were not perfect in any age.  But that is absolutely beside the point.  The idea the Jelly Roll Morton had lousy teachers during that period in history really doesn't interest me much, because I've always assumed there were lousy teachers at all times, but above all because that is not the point.

Offline keypeg

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #68 on: September 13, 2015, 05:03:49 PM »
The other issue that was raised between dcstudio and dogperson was roughly this
sometimes two people can take lessons from the same teacher...  one will learn to play the other won't---is it the teacher's fault? the system?

motivation is everything...
This is not such a straightforward thing.

Yes, if one student does not want to study the instrument and the other does, i.e. "motivation", then the teacher has no role in the personal taste and makeup of the student.  I totally agree.  Secondly, if one student follows what a decent teacher says both in the studio and at home, while another student ignores it, then they will get much different results, and this again does not lie with the teacher.  This may also be traced back to the original motivation.

But you can have other factors.
- There can be a teacher who misses teaching some essential things which one student may catch instinctively anyway, while another student can't catch them, but might be able to do well with another teacher who does teach them.
- A teacher might have a rigid teaching style or go according to a narrow formula which suit some students, but not other students - rather than adapting the teaching to the students' abilities and makeup.  Then yes, indeed, two students can learn from the same teacher and only one does well, and in this case there is a teacher factor to it.

I have no idea how often these kinds of scenarios may happen, but I think neither teaching nor learning are a black and white affair.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #69 on: September 13, 2015, 10:36:25 PM »


 did the Black/Afro-American pianists of the early 20th century pick up their [rolled chord/modified tempo method of playing] from their local piano teacher?

His directly reply was that no they did not, and that they picked it up on their own naturally.  Before, I made my new argument, with the new quote, I mentioned to him that I had prior extensive knowledge of the birth of the Black Middle Class.


I am confused Louis.. please clarify what information your are referencing.

the quote mentions that JRM had two teachers... the fake one, Mrs. Moment--who he exposed after only a few lessons... and then the efficient classical piano teacher at the Catholic University who he was placed with thereafter.  Are you arguing that he picked up "rolling" the chords from Mrs. Moment? because he only took a couple of lessons with her...she was his first teacher.  He never describes the teacher at the University at all really except to say he was efficient--he was not a local piano teacher though... are you saying he learned it from this teacher?

I have been reading these interviews extensively--JRM picked up his style of playing from the cathouses in New Orleans.. not from his teachers.  There's a link on this site to the transcripts from the 12 hours of interviews he did for the LOC.  He aggressively states that he created his own style--especially the RHYTHM --(this is supported through analysis of his tune...The Crave on his site) and that he created Jazz, itself for that matter. lol He was a very arrogant man.

I don't understand...what does "rolling" the block chords in the 19th century have to do with the birth of the black middle class Louis and why would you say that to this guy? that doesn't make any sense.  Why would this guy know anything about the performance practices of the early black jazz pianists in New Orleans simply because he has a degree and plays jazz...  and didn't you tell us that you discovered this whole thing anyway...so how could he have even known about it--unless of course you told him.

at first I thought maybe you had found something and maybe this time you would make sense...but alas... just another "paper moon"




http://www.biography.com/people/jelly-roll-morton-9415945#national-star

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #70 on: September 14, 2015, 04:08:57 AM »

 an adjunct theory to my thesis was correct.  That was:  did the Black/Afro-American pianists of the early 20th century pick up their [rolled chord/modified tempo method of playing] from their local piano teacher?



wait just a minute here...

 you formulated this theory and you have never read or even heard of the transcripts of the Jelly Roll Morton interviews done for the library of congress recordings... ?  this one of a kind description of piano practices of the early 20th century told from the point of view of an African American pianist who is credited with inventing jazz, no less.  Had you even bothered to google this subject matter you would have come across this. I have been researching early 20th century jazz piano music and African American pianists for my upcoming concert--and these interviews are referenced everywhere.

your failure to consult or to even be aware of this monumentally famous document proves that your statements have not been researched and therefore I must assume they are only your opinions.

seems to me your Austin jazz pianist expert would have told you about these...hmmm or you would have known about them from your extensive knowledge of the "birth of the black middle class"

odd...  did you research any of this or did you make this whole thing up Louis?

 :-\ :-[  wow.  busted.





 




Offline keypeg

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #71 on: September 14, 2015, 04:46:06 AM »
Waste of time, apparently.  Again.

Offline keypeg

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #72 on: September 14, 2015, 04:54:48 PM »
It was suggested that I be succinct in order to get responses.  So here goes.
sometimes two people can take lessons from the same teacher...  one will learn to play the other won't---is it the teacher's fault? the system?

motivation is everything.. 
Yes, it can be the teacher's fault, or the system's.

No, motivation is not everything.

For reasoning, pls see past ignored posts.   ;)

Offline louispodesta

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #73 on: September 14, 2015, 11:05:59 PM »
wait just a minute here...

 you formulated this theory and you have never read or even heard of the transcripts of the Jelly Roll Morton interviews done for the library of congress recordings... ?  this one of a kind description of piano practices of the early 20th century told from the point of view of an African American pianist who is credited with inventing jazz, no less.  Had you even bothered to google this subject matter you would have come across this. I have been researching early 20th century jazz piano music and African American pianists for my upcoming concert--and these interviews are referenced everywhere.

your failure to consult or to even be aware of this monumentally famous document proves that your statements have not been researched and therefore I must assume they are only your opinions.

seems to me your Austin jazz pianist expert would have told you about these...hmmm or you would have known about them from your extensive knowledge of the "birth of the black middle class"

odd...  did you research any of this or did you make this whole thing up Louis?

 :-\ :-[  wow.  busted.





 




The difference between "keypeg," myself, and you, is that we take a genuine empirical approach to our discussion.  We would never list the Library of Congress and Google as a source, anymore than the Encyclopedia Britannica.

Accordingly, Jelly Roll Morton was a significant, but small part of the discussion, in terms of the evolution of early 20th century jazz.  He did not invent jazz!

My source is as follows:
http://www.uarts.edu/users/rlawn

Rick was the first person to teach a university level course specific to the history of jazz (UT Austin), in the State of Texas. And, I took this course!

Additionally, in that you suppose to know more about matriculation at the piano in the 18th and 19th centuries than keypeg and myself (as it relates to the study of theory/composition), I list the following link:

http://www.quora.com/How-did-composers-of-Western-classical-music-during-the-19th-century-study-music-theory-and-harmony

Offline keypeg

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #74 on: September 15, 2015, 12:27:36 AM »
I must say that I know nothing about Jelly Roll Morton and very little about jazz.  I delight in dcpiano's playing in a genre that I am just getting to know, and also love the direction her journey has taken her so far.  At the end of the day, I'm thinking that what counts in anything you learn is what it lets you do at the instrument with music.

That said, this side topic has been quite interesting.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #75 on: September 15, 2015, 05:10:05 AM »

thank you keypeg :)    I am so enjoying my studies of the early pianists of New Orleans... it is fascinating.  Lots to learn.   

As far as your thoughts on motivation... it is not that straightforward obviously.  For me, it was the combination of efficient training from a very young age and my obsessive desire to master pieces that were above my level.  I also used the piano as a means of escape.   Then in college I totally focused on the academic side of music because I felt so inferior as a pianist.   This was more instrumental than anything I believe.  I figured that if I couldn't out play them I would out GPA them... and I did. lol.  It was more than just having good grades though... I really studied until I understood it all and when I did finally start doing this for a living it showed.  I used a lot of the tools I learned in theory class, such as Roman numeral analysis to help me learn music on the fly since my sight-reading wasn't A+++  I was ok...just not spectacular. :)

I was lucky that I got on well with most of my teachers, too...  I have seen students fail because they just couldn't figure out how to communicate with their instructor.   These were decent students and teachers, too... they just were poorly matched.   

Now--out in the real world.. you will work with people that totally get on your last nerve and that's just the way it is... so there are two sides to this argument.  Some people will claim to have majored in theory at music school and then bring you a score they are unable to understand because it has figured bass... (yes... I have seen this first hand...) but they are signing your paycheck so... what do you do.. ?    you have to figure out how to play what they want and get paid..  that's the life of a musician... and people who can do that.. well they make it. 8)

:)





Offline keypeg

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #76 on: September 16, 2015, 05:19:40 PM »
dcstudio - thank you so much for your very detailed post.  It really gives me a picture of where you're coming from.  It also gives a good starting point for some real dialogue - a back and forth of ideas, possibly.
   For me, it was the combination of efficient training from a very young age and my obsessive desire to master pieces that were above my level.  I also used the piano as a means of escape.   Then in college I totally focused on the academic side of music because I felt so inferior as a pianist.   This was more instrumental than anything I believe.  I figured that if I couldn't out play them I would out GPA them... and I did. lol.  It was more than just having good grades though... I really studied until I understood it all and when I did finally start doing this for a living it showed. 
An interesting thing about the last bit is how the academic side switched on you.  Originally studying theory was a way you could do something where you could shine, but later because you had studied these things so thoroughly, they became tools for your playing.  At that point you were no longer interested in shining, but in how this served your music making. :)
Quote
   For me, it was the combination of efficient training from a very young age and my obsessive desire to master pieces that were above my level.  I also used the piano as a means of escape. 
An important thing I'm noting here is that two things were there a) efficient training at the onset b) what you wanted to do with music.  Now imagine if had not had the training that gave you the means of producing the music that you wanted to produce, and you only had the desire, i.e. the efficient training was absent.  Then a couple of things can happen.  You might struggle and not manage, or you might think you're playing the advanced music but can't hear the weaknesses that your lack of skill has left you with in which case you're still happy.  Or if you have a few musical bones and the ears to go with it, you might be constantly disappointed in what you can't produce - which you can't produce merely because of the lack of skills.  So these two things are important.

When I was a child, I self-taught piano, and I was quite happy with it.  When I was an adult, I took up an instrument that is characterized as technically very difficult, doing the right thing by starting it with a teacher.  And here this issue of good and continual training in skills came up.  I had a bad instrument which harmed that part, and wasn't told until almost a year went by, and I was also rushed through grade levels.  The result was that eventually I was struggling with challenging material slated as grades 6 and 7, where forcing it through and willpower no longer cut it. Having a good ear and using your feelings to play led, among other things, to injury.

One reason this came about, is that my teacher was a veteran who knew that (older) students found doing the work for technique to be intimidating, and wanted to "advance" fast to interesting advanced material.  This fuels self-esteem; you "are" no longer a beginner etc.  You can play selected advanced material in a more primitive amateurish manner which is good enough for many.  But as soon as you don't have much in the way of skills - I don't have to finish that sentence.

At some point in those struggles I literally turned my back on the "interesting" music in the middle of a practice session.  I went after whatever technical issue was at hand, and went back and back until I got to a fundamental skill that was missing.  I practised the skill: I found etudes - I did the "boring" work that my teacher had spared me.  And when I played the piece a week later, suddenly I sounded fantastic, and it was easy to play, because I had the skill, and was not struggling. 

This was my turning point.  Working directly on a skill had the end result of being able to play with greater ease and sounding better.  I then had a great desire to do the very things my teacher had spared me of: get basic solid skills, and even, to work on more basic material in order to get it.

This whole formula of "efficient training" (skills) plus desire is a tricky one, because knowing how to give a student skills without losing the student is both a science and an art.  There are oppressive, dogmatic teachers who think they're giving skills but are simply doing what their own teachers did - others who have some magic narrow formula that works for some, sometimes, and other variants.  Then there is the willingness of the student to do the work.

You have written about two things, and I will make two separate posts since this is already too long.

Offline keypeg

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #77 on: September 16, 2015, 05:39:47 PM »
The other thing:
]I was lucky that I got on well with most of my teachers, too...  I have seen students fail because they just couldn't figure out how to communicate with their instructor.   These were decent students and teachers, too... they just were poorly matched.   
My impression is that you are thinking of an advanced level here, maybe college level?  Please correct me if I am wrong.  Yes, that does make sense.

What now of the beginner student who is getting poor or wrong instruction, and diligently follows it to his own hurt?  What if it's not actually wrong, but it shallowly skims the surface, and the student has a niggling feeling - either that or thinks he must lack talent because he struggles as it advances?  When you don't know much, it is very hard as student to communicate.  If the instruction is actually wrong through incompetence, and you actually figure this out, then communication is futile anyway.  If the teacher can give you missing skills, but hasn't been because of assumptions of what you're motivated to do,   then the answer is to tell him what you are interested in learning.  Most teachers who can, actually do want to delve deeper, and are not that happy about "fast and shallow" so this is win/win.  You must be careful however of not indicating that you weren't taught what you should have been, because then you risk treading on ego that gets insulted.  It is not an easy thing.  This btw is the reason why I say adult students should ask for skills at the first meeting, in order to prevent any of this in the first place.

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Now--out in the real world.. you will work with people that totally get on your last nerve and that's just the way it is... so there are two sides to this argument.
Yes, absolutely.

I have been in the real music world only in a limited capacity.  I chose where I had enough skill, namely singing, and joined several choirs back then just to get experience doing music in a group.  I'm mentioning this because until you have some level of skill you can't deal that well with anything, or rather, it's much easier to do if you have the chops to back you up, and to not be thrown.
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you have to figure out how to play what they want and get paid..  that's the life of a musician... and people who can do that.. well they make it.
To be able to figure how how to deal with their garbled instructions when they don't know what they're talking about, but think they are experts, you have to know a thing or two.

When you write of these things, I think it is from the view of a professional performing musician, or when about education, then the view of an advanced student taking advanced lessons.  When I write, it is from the view of the beginner or immediate student in the formative stages, or the teaching of the same.  So we have two perspectives going on, both of which are important.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #78 on: September 16, 2015, 08:04:01 PM »

When you write of these things, I think it is from the view of a professional performing musician, or when about education, then the view of an advanced student taking advanced lessons.  When I write, it is from the view of the beginner or immediate student in the formative stages, or the teaching of the same.  So we have two perspectives going on, both of which are important.

I forget that you are a student sometimes keypeg...lol.   

I have said this before--I know all about beginners and piano---the mistakes, the misconceptions they have, how to get them going in the right direction and all of that...

but it has been so very long since I was a student...  I do not always remember what it feels like.

there are also concepts I take for granted that many folks here have not yet learned...

Offline keypeg

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #79 on: September 16, 2015, 11:55:06 PM »
I forget that you are a student sometimes keypeg...lol.   
:)  At this point I also do a limited amount of teaching.  That said, I assume that in this teacher forum, most teachers here are not teaching advanced students in college, so I do tend to think of beginners and intermediate students.
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I have said this before--I know all about beginners and piano---the mistakes, the misconceptions they have, how to get them going in the right direction and all of that...
Ok, but I didn't actually write about misconceptions on the part of beginner students.  While this does exist, and probably in droves, I was writing about things that can go wrong at the teacher end.  I know I wrote a lot, but I'd love it if you'd look at one or two points and explore it.  Even if it didn't happen to you, I can imagine that you had one or two transfer students in your career where you had to deal with such things.
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but it has been so very long since I was a student...  I do not always remember what it feels like.
Of course.  The most important thing at your end is what a student needs to learn, and how to pass that one.  Remembering what it feels like to be a student is probably not the most important thing, if at all.
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there are also concepts I take for granted that many folks here have not yet learned...
I'd be quite interested in knowing about a few of these concepts. :)

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #80 on: September 17, 2015, 04:34:53 PM »
.I'd be quite interested in knowing about a few of these concepts. :)

take for example ear training...  some students think they have a great ear because they can recognize that the song "Maria" from West Side Story opens with the vocalist singing a tritone.

my ears hear the progression (just the functions I don't have perfect pitch) the melody, the rhythm, everything.  most people pluck out one note at a time when thy play by ear..  I can learn it all at once..and sometimes I don't have to learn anything I can just think of a tune and I can play it --melody, chords and a bass line.

most people can only extrapolate one thing at a time...  I forget that when I am listening to music and my brain--with no help from me--lines out all this information...that my student is not hearing this the way I am...yet..lol. Some cannot hear happy from sad--ascending from descending until they are taught what to listen for.

continuing with the ear... I also play guitar.. which unlike the piano is tuned by the performer.  Many pianists have real trouble differentiating in and out of tune because they have tuned out their poorly maintained piano their whole lives.  I assume my students can hear things that they are unable to hear yet... 

and that's just a few

Offline keypeg

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #81 on: September 17, 2015, 05:05:35 PM »
That makes a lot of sense and I an relate to that.  I came in being able to hear a fair number of things when I first had lessons, which was on violin.  I had sung since I was little, played piano self-taught preceded by a little organ, and recorder, and self-taught classical guitar.  We had sung pre-Kodaly movable Do solfege in a primary grade.   In my childhood self-teaching I'd gone through sonatinas, so I picked up modulations and common practice progressions, all through the filter of that same solfege. So I had a number of things going for me, probably more than most.

Well first thing - anything that I did hear - all of it was subconscious.  When I finally took theory (which goes very well with the common practice type of music I had always played), it was like "So that's what I've been hearing." and that added a whole new dimension.

From everything you wrote, this to me seems like the most important.
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I assume my students can hear things that they are unable to hear yet...
Your awareness that this is so. This is huge.  Because it is natural to assume that everyone perceives what we perceive, because it is so normal for us.  But then you'll teach right past the student.  When a student's perception goes past what he once had, it is magical and potent.

I've listed what I did have, but not what I did not have.
- I had a fair degree of major and minor chord sense, but it took me a while to distinguish the diminished triad, since what I was actually listening for was the minor third.  I was more interval oriented, and more like a singer
- my chords were locked into solfege and function within a scale
- One new concept that blew my mind away was of a chord being alive - that every chord is in a context and is in a state of movement.  Here's a simple one: a C7 moving to F, and that same sound moving to B as C(aug 6).  The chord is "pregnant with its movement" by where it is in the music, and what the music is doing.  This is a hearing I'm developing and don't quite have yet
- I had a lyrical flow to my music, but people who played in bands or groups would say "I can't catch the underlying pulse" (because it didn't exist).  My counts would be ok but it would speed up or slow down with passion - this other element was missing.

There is a whole series of videos out about colourblind people seeing for the first time, thanks to a new type of corrective glasses.  I think it is a great metaphor for a teacher managing to open up a student's hearing along realities the student had no idea even existed.  Here is one at random.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTpCTDwjHZQ

Offline keypeg

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #82 on: September 17, 2015, 05:10:38 PM »
On this last point, I think that is why I find it upsetting when adult books and teaching suggestions go along the lines of working with what the adult already knows and already likes.  How do I enter your world of your craft, if all of it centers on my small still ignorant world?  How do I grow, and perceive in new ways?  How do I get past the filters of reality as I know it?  How do I hear differently and more than I presently do?  This also expands to the physical experience of playing. How I do things may not be a good way of doing them, and building on them may not be such a good idea - except where they are already on track.  And the teacher's very difficult task is to know how to build without destroying what is natural and good.

(End of off topic)

Offline symphonicdance

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #83 on: September 19, 2015, 04:24:50 PM »
don't waste money and time. let him quit. let him be happy or let him regret in the future or else. it's his choice, and he needs to face the music.  'tis also learning of life.

Offline keypeg

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #84 on: September 19, 2015, 06:30:38 PM »
don't waste money and time. let him quit. let him be happy or let him regret in the future or else. it's his choice, and he needs to face the music.  'tis also learning of life.
Since the student is doing well and enjoying his lessons immensely now, why do you want him to quit?  This has been stressed several times now, each time someone else comes along saying the student should quit.

Offline kevonthegreatpianist

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #85 on: September 23, 2015, 10:23:34 PM »
Since the student is doing well and enjoying his lessons immensely now, why do you want him to quit?  This has been stressed several times now, each time someone else comes along saying the student should quit.

because we think that's the right thing to do.
I made an account and hadn't used it in a year. Welcome back, kevon.

Offline keitokyun

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Re: Our son wants to quit piano, what should I do?
«Reply #86 on: September 25, 2015, 05:37:59 AM »
i was the exact same when i was 11. i loved the piano but only played the stuff i liked. I would recommend talking to the teacher and see if he/she could let your son play somthing he likes, like movie music. If the teacher refuses, i would make him keep on practicing. He WILL regret his life when he's older if he quits now.