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how to fight procrastination? (Read 3097 times)

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #50 on: January 17, 2015, 05:25:33 AM »
faulty is such an idiot.
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if you weren't such an imbecile...

Like I said, you have no reply so you resort to insults.

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stop saying the phrase stupid and un-intelligent.  it is redundant.

You want me to stop because you don't want to be reminded that you are.  Again, I think this is the third time I'm mentioning it, I don't think you are stupid and un-intelligent.  You do.  You're the one who keeps projecting your insecurities by mentioning it repeatedly, by interpreting what I say in that perspective.  Full disclosure: I'm purposefully feeding your insecurities; you can't change until you admit to the problem.  You're also the one who claims, with pride, that you're the worst procrastinator ever.  Like you are celebrating your inability to do these things.  I've already mentioned many times before that procrastinators neither have the skills nor knowledge to accomplish certain tasks.  So, again, get yourself a good tutor if you aren't willing to ask your teachers for help.

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #51 on: January 17, 2015, 05:30:31 AM »
Seriously though, some people spend too much time online and don't get around to doing the tasks they should be doing.  That's one approach - replacing an activity you don't really want to do with one that is much more pleasant.  That's a type of procrastination that affects a lot of people, especially younger ones.

But it is by no means the only type.  That's too bad, because faulty's techniques do tend to work with that type.

Another type (I'm going to avoid a false dichotomy, there are more than two types) is where you really do want to do the task you need to, but you can't start. 

In that case you do another activity like posting online, not because it is more pleasant or higher in priority, but because you CAN'T do the one you need.  Not because of lack of skill, as faulty assumes, but because of neurological inertia. 

These are totally different scenarios and they need totally different approaches.

That's incorrect.  They may seem like they are different "types" but they are all classified as avoidant behaviors.  What someone does to avoid is dependent upon the situation.  Regardless of how it looks, the solution is still the same: get help from those who are more knowledgeable and skilled than you are.

Offline cwjalex

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #52 on: January 17, 2015, 06:09:21 AM »
Like I said, you have no reply so you resort to insults.

You want me to stop because you don't want to be reminded that you are.  Again, I think this is the third time I'm mentioning it, I don't think you are stupid and un-intelligent.  You do.  You're the one who keeps projecting your insecurities by mentioning it repeatedly, by interpreting what I say in that perspective.  Full disclosure: I'm purposefully feeding your insecurities; you can't change until you admit to the problem.  You're also the one who claims, with pride, that you're the worst procrastinator ever.  Like you are celebrating your inability to do these things.  I've already mentioned many times before that procrastinators neither have the skills nor knowledge to accomplish certain tasks.  So, again, get yourself a good tutor if you aren't willing to ask your teachers for help.

nono i want you to stop because it highlights your own stupidity. It's actually advice.  You wouldn't need to type so much if you could organize your thoughts and convey them in a clear manner.  You can either say stupid or un intelligent but combining them doesn't give any more information.  like i said it is redundant.  

You are so wrong about procrastinators neither having the skills nor knowledge to accomplish certain tasks.  many people have given you examples that shows this does not apply to them.  i'll give you another example: i am procrastinating cleaning my room even though it needs to be done.  I have all the skills and necessary knowledge to accomplish this task but I am delaying it anyways.

You are also wrong about me being insecure and that I am prideful about my procrastination.  If you read my post you would have seen that I had said that I hate that I procrastinate.  You are also wrong in that you say that I think I am stupid.  Anyone who reads my posts can clearly see that i have a great deal of confidence in myself.  academically i graduated at the top of my class and got a 1590 on my SATs.  There is no lack of self confidence here.  You are pretty much wrong about everything.

Offline outin

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #53 on: January 17, 2015, 06:14:13 AM »
Am I alone in regarding procrastination as an art to be mastered rather than a sin to be expiated?


No, but it seems most people are not able to enjoy the creative process. I assume it has something to do with people's tendency to feel guilty about all kinds of things, something I am not capable of...

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #54 on: January 17, 2015, 08:12:20 AM »
nono i want you to stop because it highlights your own stupidity. It's actually advice.  You wouldn't need to type so much if you could organize your thoughts and convey them in a clear manner.  You can either say stupid or un intelligent but combining them doesn't give any more information.  like i said it is redundant.  

You are so wrong about procrastinators neither having the skills nor knowledge to accomplish certain tasks.  many people have given you examples that shows this does not apply to them.  i'll give you another example: i am procrastinating cleaning my room even though it needs to be done.  I have all the skills and necessary knowledge to accomplish this task but I am delaying it anyways.

You are also wrong about me being insecure and that I am prideful about my procrastination.  If you read my post you would have seen that I had said that I hate that I procrastinate.  You are also wrong in that you say that I think I am stupid.  Anyone who reads my posts can clearly see that i have a great deal of confidence in myself.  academically i graduated at the top of my class and got a 1590 on my SATs.  There is no lack of self confidence here.  You are pretty much wrong about everything.

Again, you're the one taking things personally.  You are the one who started insulting me.  You're the one who tries to bring other people into the fray for backup.  And you don't even bother to address the topic.  Then you feel the need to prove that you aren't stupid by giving me your SAT scores.  This undermines everything you imply.  Worse still is that you keep on insisting that you aren't stupid and unintelligent (which, btw, are two separate ideas) but your behavior indicates otherwise.  It's okay to ask for help to get things done.  But you don't do that.  Instead, you keep insisting that what I'm describing isn't what you're experiencing so I'm wrong.  I counter that you aren't really interested in learning about what it actually is.  Again, you have a fixed view of intelligence which prevents you from accepting new ideas.

You really don't know what procrastination is.  The example of cleaning the room may not be procrastination if it doesn't need to be cleaned.  You may be perfectly fine with having a messy room (you may be a hoarder which is an innate behavior) so who says it needs cleaning?  Your mom?  This is an issue of priorities, not procrastination.  As I said earlier, most things people say they are procrastinating are not really procrastination.  They overuse the word to describe anything they put off, which isn't even the definition.

Offline cwjalex

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #55 on: January 17, 2015, 08:31:10 AM »
They overuse the word to describe anything they put off, which isn't even the definition.

that is the definition of procrastination.  you are the one who has no idea what procrastination is.  it is a task that you need to complete that you put off.  i just gave you an example of how your idea that procrastination is when you lack the necessary skills and knowledge to complete it, is wrong.  my room is messy and needs to be cleaned but i'm delaying it.  so once again, this is evidence that your idea does not apply.  also, my mom doesn't tell me to clean my room, i'm 30 years old.

Offline j_menz

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #56 on: January 17, 2015, 10:16:22 AM »
My point that procrastination may be a virtue.....

Consider how much more sense this whole thread would make, and how much more civil/amusing/intelligent it would be if some people practiced the art.

Hell, they might even spend the time thinking. Though that seems a faint hope.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline timothy42b

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #57 on: January 17, 2015, 05:15:15 PM »
I've already mentioned many times before that procrastinators neither have the skills nor knowledge to accomplish certain tasks.  So, again, get yourself a good tutor if you aren't willing to ask your teachers for help.

You've stated that many times, true, but it's merely an unwarranted assertion on your part until you back it up.  I do not believe you because it does not match my experience.

Your guess as to the cause requires two elements:  lack of the skill to complete the task at a given standard, and a perfectionistic mindset on the part of the procrastinator.  Both seem necessary to you. 

However I have observed many cases where the person either did have sufficient skill, OR didn't really care how perfect his results were, and yet the procrastination occurred. 

If you were right, what is the mechanism?  What, exactly, is it that prevents the action from starting?  You have spoken to the motivation but are completely silent on the execution, on the actual mechanism that prevents the task.  Your silence on this aspect is what leads me to believe you lack the expertise or background to understand this problem. 
Tim

Offline ahinton

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #58 on: January 17, 2015, 05:42:46 PM »
I have expertise in procrastination.
If you are procrastination, who can be against it?

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #59 on: January 17, 2015, 08:05:15 PM »
You've stated that many times, true, but it's merely an unwarranted assertion on your part until you back it up.  I do not believe you because it does not match my experience.

Your guess as to the cause requires two elements:  lack of the skill to complete the task at a given standard, and a perfectionistic mindset on the part of the procrastinator.  Both seem necessary to you. 

However I have observed many cases where the person either did have sufficient skill, OR didn't really care how perfect his results were, and yet the procrastination occurred. 

If you were right, what is the mechanism?  What, exactly, is it that prevents the action from starting?  You have spoken to the motivation but are completely silent on the execution, on the actual mechanism that prevents the task.  Your silence on this aspect is what leads me to believe you lack the expertise or background to understand this problem. 

It's all explained earlier.  You have no evidence of someones "skill" just by observing it.   Ability, we all have that and that's assumed.  (This is the skillful fallacy mentioned earlier, where people confuse having ability for having skill.)  Skill requires being able to do it well, otherwise, it's not skill.  You also have no evidence of knowledge just by observing it.  Knowledge of some parts, probably.  But of all parts?  You also can't tell what someone's expectations are.  That varies between individuals.  If they have unreasonable expectations compared to what they are capable of, they are putting themselves at risk for procrastination to occur.

What I explained earlier in the thread is not the subjective experience.  That's not helpful in understanding it since it seems very different from what is objectively observed.  What I provided was the framework of procrastination.  (To be clear, I am purposefully leaving out the personality traits that have been associated with procrastinators because it would get very messy, very quickly, and it isn't necessary to know them to understand.)

Also, to clarify, I mentioned that perfectionistic tendencies is associated with procrastination.  However, most procrastinators are not perfectionists.  Why procrastination occurs in either case can easily be explained by the expectation-to-skill ratio.  Perfectionists have unreasonably high expectations compared to their skill level.  Most who procrastinate have unreasonably high expectations usually placed upon them by their teachers.  It's all relative.

If you understand all this, then the solution is pretty obvious.
1) lower expectations
2) increase skill/knowledge
or
3) get help

For whatever task is procrastinated, getting help is the best choice because:
a) it doesn't necessarily require lowering expectations (since expectations are usually fixed by the assignment)
b) you can learn to do the task

My perspective is that of a teacher so I'm biased in stating that getting help is the best solution.  Part of my job is improving students' skills and knowledge.  I've been successful in helping to eliminate procrastination on certain tasks.  However, this does not mean they won't procrastinate on other tasks because different tasks require different skills and knowledge to complete.  A student who procrastinates on math homework may not procrastinate on writing papers since he has very good writing skills.  And vice versa.  It's all relative to the individual.

The worst thing a teacher can do, especially for students with low skill, is lower standards for them.  Doing so 1) lowers expectations and 2) skills are not learned.  This is a double whammy.  Focusing on grades also increases procrastination because then students don't focus on learning.  Also, for perfectionists, you can't really lower their standards since that could be interpreted as saying they are stupid and un-intelligent.

Offline j_menz

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #60 on: January 17, 2015, 11:18:39 PM »
Some things I procrastinate about - scrubbing the toilet, mowing the lawn and putting out the garbage. Perfectly capable of doing all of them, by the way - just tasks I don't particularly enjoy.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #61 on: January 18, 2015, 12:08:16 AM »
Some things I procrastinate about - scrubbing the toilet, mowing the lawn and putting out the garbage. Perfectly capable of doing all of them, by the way - just tasks I don't particularly enjoy.

When a garbage collector procrastinates taking out his own garbage, or when the janitor procrastinates cleaning his own toilet, or when a gardener procrastinates mowing his own lawn, then what you say has merit.  But, all of these tasks require far higher skill than most people assume.  It sounds easy but it requires a certain degree of skill.   This is the issue that is being confused in the above examples: being capable doesn't necessarily mean skillful.  This is the skillful fallacy.

Offline cwjalex

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #62 on: January 18, 2015, 12:37:26 AM »
When a garbage collector procrastinates taking out his own garbage, or when the janitor procrastinates cleaning his own toilet, or when a gardener procrastinates mowing his own lawn, then what you say has merit.  But, all of these tasks require far higher skill than most people assume.  It sounds easy but it requires a certain degree of skill.   This is the issue that is being confused in the above examples: being capable doesn't necessarily mean skillful.  This is the skillful fallacy.

you are saying a garbage collectors takes out his garbage more skillfully than j_menz?  i doubt this. 

Offline j_menz

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #63 on: January 18, 2015, 12:54:41 AM »
you are saying a garbage collectors takes out his garbage more skillfully than j_menz?  i doubt this. 

Since it involves moving two wheelie bins from a spot on the drive to a spot on the kerbside, I believe I have adequate skill. Admittedly, I don't do doughnuts or loop the loops, but since I rarely have an audience I doubt that matters much.

And since I place them neatly and the professional garbage collectors seem incapable of that, I doubt they have much to teach me.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline cwjalex

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #64 on: January 18, 2015, 12:57:35 AM »
Since it involves moving two wheelie bins from a spot on the drive to a spot on the kerbside, I believe I have adequate skill. Admittedly, I don't do doughnuts or loop the loops, but since I rarely have an audience I doubt that matters much.

And since I place them neatly and the professional garbage collectors seem incapable of that, I doubt they have much to teach me.

are you saying that you can actually perform this task better than a professional?  this is unbelievable. heresy.


Offline j_menz

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #65 on: January 18, 2015, 01:03:09 AM »
are you saying that you can actually perform this task better than a professional?  this is unbelievable. heresy.



Not only me. Apparently almost everyone in the street can do so. And most people in every street in which I've lived.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline timothy42b

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #66 on: January 18, 2015, 02:14:00 AM »

What I explained earlier in the thread is not the subjective experience.  That's not helpful in understanding it since it seems very different from what is objectively observed. 

Translation:  the subjective experience is completely at odds with your theories so it must be dismissed as irrelevant.

you seem to be one of those "one size fits all" teachers. 
Tim

Offline j_menz

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #67 on: January 18, 2015, 02:31:50 AM »
You have no evidence of someones "skill" just by observing it.   Ability, we all have that and that's assumed. 

Consider juggling.

If I observe someone juggling ten balls in the air at once, I can pretty safely assume that they are a reasonably skilful juggler. If I see someone attempt to juggle two balls and they drop both, I can at least withhold judgment.  What do you suggest, besides observation, is required to enable me to judge whether or not they are skilful?

Oh, and in this particular case, your assumption as regards my ability is completely misplaced.

Oddly, I have never procrastinated about juggling.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline Bob

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #68 on: January 18, 2015, 03:18:28 AM »
Another thought... Add more time.  If that's possible.  If you can't control the deadline, then you're stuck.  But if you can add more time... You probably already have a plan in place, so that thinking is done.  It just might take longer than you thought.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline pianoplunker

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #69 on: January 18, 2015, 06:04:32 AM »
Could anyone who is particularly good at getting things done offer any tips for those of us who aren't?

I was just about to fight procrastination, but still haven't gotten around to it yet.

Offline j_menz

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #70 on: January 18, 2015, 06:19:15 AM »
I was just about to fight procrastination, but still haven't gotten around to it yet.

I see you've been reading.

"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #71 on: January 18, 2015, 06:47:02 AM »
Translation:  the subjective experience is completely at odds with your theories so it must be dismissed as irrelevant.

you seem to be one of those "one size fits all" teachers. 

Are you purposefully misunderstanding?  How someone spends the time they have while procrastinating is irrelevant.

It seems you have no argument because now you're resorting to insults.

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #72 on: January 18, 2015, 06:54:05 AM »
Consider juggling.

If I observe someone juggling ten balls in the air at once, I can pretty safely assume that they are a reasonably skilful juggler. If I see someone attempt to juggle two balls and they drop both, I can at least withhold judgment.  What do you suggest, besides observation, is required to enable me to judge whether or not they are skilful?

Oh, and in this particular case, your assumption as regards my ability is completely misplaced.

Oddly, I have never procrastinated about juggling.

You really aren't understanding (which requires thinking) as I've already explained what you describe.  What is sufficient skill for one person may not be for another.  This is where expectations come into play.  Further, juggling is a really poor example of a task that can be procrastinated.  So is taking out the trash.

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #73 on: January 18, 2015, 06:57:17 AM »
Another thought... Add more time.  If that's possible.  If you can't control the deadline, then you're stuck.  But if you can add more time... You probably already have a plan in place, so that thinking is done.  It just might take longer than you thought.

Adding more time may help if the task has already started.  It's usually then that one realizes that to do a decent enough job that it will take more time than anticipated.  However, adding more time before the task has begun would be fruitless since it just allows more time to procrastinate.  People are often very poor at predicting how long it takes them to finish assignments.  Those who are accurate in estimating how much time it takes are highly skillful in the task since they've had lots of experience.

Offline j_menz

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #74 on: January 18, 2015, 07:03:40 AM »
You really aren't understanding (which requires thinking) as I've already explained what you describe.  What is sufficient skill for one person may not be for another.  This is where expectations come into play.  Further, juggling is a really poor example of a task that can be procrastinated.  So is taking out the trash.

You miss my point. How is the skilfulness of the juggler to be judged if not by observation? You said observation wasn't the way to judge skill - what alternative do you mandate?

And any task can be the subject of procrastination. One's that don't suit your argument are not "poor examples", they are just ones you find inconvenient. Suck it up and actually make your case!
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline Bob

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #75 on: January 18, 2015, 06:19:58 PM »
Even more...

Maybe do the project by small blocks of time. 

Set 10 or 20 minutes that you'll work on something on the project.  It's only that short amount of time, so it will end quickly.

Or set one very tiny piece of the project to do.  Something incredibly easy to do.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline timothy42b

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #76 on: January 18, 2015, 08:50:17 PM »
I was just about to fight procrastination, but still haven't gotten around to it yet.

I prayed for patience, but it's taking too %$#^%$ing long!
Tim

Offline timothy42b

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #77 on: January 18, 2015, 08:54:21 PM »
Are you purposefully misunderstanding?  How someone spends the time they have while procrastinating is irrelevant.

What does how one spends time have with the subjective experience of procrastination? 

You don't have any personal experience with it at all, do you?  I am aghast you think you can teach this, you do not have the slightest understanding of your students, nor do you care.

The subjective experience of procrastination has a lot to do with the actual psychological mechanism that prevents the actions from starting, as opposed to the reasons for not starting.

You appear to be completely clueless that a mechanism must exist.  Have you actually studied this at all? 
Tim

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #78 on: January 18, 2015, 09:55:05 PM »
How is the skilfulness of the juggler to be judged if not by observation? You said observation wasn't the way to judge skill - what alternative do you mandate?

And any task can be the subject of procrastination. One's that don't suit your argument are not "poor examples", they are just ones you find inconvenient. Suck it up and actually make your case!

Skillfulness depends on the task at hand, not a "who is the greatest juggler of all time?"  If the assignment requires juggling 5 balls and you can only juggle three, then you are relatively low-skilled.  But if you can juggle three, and the task requires you to juggle 3, then you are adequately skilled.  You don't need a Formula 1 race car driver to park a car.  Likewise, you don't need Horowitz to play "Chopsticks".  Furtherwise, you don't need to hire a Barnum & Bailey clown to juggle your balls - you can do that on your own.

Not every task can be procrastinated; there are certain qualifications that must be present.  In the juggling example, the way you framed it, it can't be procrastinated simply because you are fully capable of juggling your balls. It's not a case of procrastination but one of priorities.  However, if there was a juggling assignment due which requires juggling 10 balls, and you can only juggle five, you might not believe you are capable (you feel anxiety) so you wait as long as possible to practice juggling 10.  Only then do you realize you need four more men.

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #79 on: January 18, 2015, 10:11:40 PM »
What does how one spends time have with the subjective experience of procrastination? 

You don't have any personal experience with it at all, do you?  I am aghast you think you can teach this, you do not have the slightest understanding of your students, nor do you care.

The subjective experience of procrastination has a lot to do with the actual psychological mechanism that prevents the actions from starting, as opposed to the reasons for not starting.
You mentioned earlier that some people don't know how to get started or do something else in the meanwhile.  This is what I was responding to.  Who cares what they do while they are putting it off?  Whatever it is that they are doing while they are not doing the necessary task falls under the category of avoidant behaviors.

Addressing your concern for the 3rd, 4th, or 5th time: all I provided was a framework in which procrastination occurs.  I very specifically left out certain subjective experiences, such as the feeling of anxiety.  This is already implied in the expectation-to-skill ratio.  All this ratio does is make it clear that when expectations (intrinsic or extrinsic) are higher than what one believes he can achieve, procrastination is likely to occur.

When the word "skill" is used, it is a loaded word.  Skill, while easily defined, is a complicated phenomenon.  Many things must be learned to achieve it as well as the knowledge that one can execute it appropriately.  Having skill also leads to affective associations such as self-confidence, the belief in one's ability to accomplish certain goals.  Low skill, coupled with the expectation that it should be higher, leads to low self-confidence.  In other words, skill is relative to the task at hand.

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #80 on: January 18, 2015, 10:15:40 PM »
Maybe do the project by small blocks of time.  

Set 10 or 20 minutes that you'll work on something on the project.  It's only that short amount of time, so it will end quickly.

Or set one very tiny piece of the project to do.  Something incredibly easy to do.

This is usually the advice that is given because it does work.  Sort of.  The problem is that it actually requires the procrastinator to get started.  So once the project is started, the procrastinator is no longer procrastinating.

Offline j_menz

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #81 on: January 18, 2015, 10:26:31 PM »
Skillfulness depends on the task at hand,

No, ability depends on the task at hand - are you able to do it. Skilfullness is a more generalized thing. You drew the distinction between the two concepts, so do please be consistent.

Also, you continue to avoid answering my question - how is it to be judged if not by observation.

Not every task can be procrastinated; there are certain qualifications that must be present.

Nope. You are attempting to rewrite the English language to get yourself out of the hole you dug. Not falling for it.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline timothy42b

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #82 on: January 19, 2015, 04:35:28 PM »
You mentioned earlier that some people don't know how to get started or do something else in the meanwhile. 


No.  NO NO NO!!!

I did not say that.  People DO know how to get started, but they can't start.  You are continuing to misread anything I write, or anybody else writes, that doesn't agree with your preconceived notions. 


Quote
  I very specifically left out certain subjective experiences, such as the feeling of anxiety.  This is already implied in the expectation-to-skill ratio. 

Anxiety is central to the discussion of approach-avoidance behavior.  You've never had a psychology class I take it?  This is not something you can leave out. 
Tim

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #83 on: January 20, 2015, 07:17:42 AM »
I did not say that.  People DO know how to get started, but they can't start.  You are continuing to misread anything I write, or anybody else writes, that doesn't agree with your preconceived notions. 

Anxiety is central to the discussion of approach-avoidance behavior.  You've never had a psychology class I take it?  This is not something you can leave out. 

What you're referring to is the affective block that prevents people from getting started.  My answer again is the concept of skill.  Confidence in ones ability is a part of skill.  However, this is very subjective.  Even if skill is objectively equal between two people, one person's subjective thoughts/feelings about their skill may be lower than the other (e.g. perfectionists tend to perceive themselves as having lower skill than they actually do.)  This person will be more likely to procrastinate because their expectation is higher than the other person's.  Again, the expectation:skill contains the affective element.  And again, I purposefully don't directly address the affective element because this is a framework.  The point of misunderstanding is probably because you define procrastination in a very subjective way.

And lastly, I disagree that people know how to get started.  They don't due to low skill.  If they did know how to get started, which means that they have the skills, then they wouldn't procrastinate.

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #84 on: January 20, 2015, 07:40:12 AM »
No, ability depends on the task at hand - are you able to do it. Skilfullness is a more generalized thing. You drew the distinction between the two concepts, so do please be consistent.

Also, you continue to avoid answering my question - how is it to be judged if not by observation.

It's the opposite of what you define.

Ability is simply being able to do something.  Skill is being able to do something well. Skill is specific to the task at hand.  E.g. You may have the skills to play "chopsticks" but you don't have the skills to play Chopin's Etudes.  But in both cases, you have the ability to play the piano.  However, in the Etude, you expect it to require a great degree of skill.

Perhaps the misunderstanding is with expectation, which can significantly differ between people.  If you expect that playing all the notes in the etude means you have sufficient skill, then you have the skills.  However, to musicians, the skill to play all the notes is assumed.  What's important to musicians is that music is created, which requires significantly higher skill.  Playing all the notes is just playing notes, not necessarily making music.  But, to the person who's actually playing, how he defines skill is due to accomplishing his own expectations, not others'.  This is the subjective objective experience of skill.  If you accomplish your goals (the expectations), then you have the skills.  1:1, it's pretty simple.  He may be a lousy musician from your perspective, but he's a virtuoso the way he defined it, being able to play a "difficult" piece.  This is why skill is dependent on the task/expectation.  Again, you don't need Horowitz to play "Chopsticks" - this is what you mean by objective observation.

Offline outin

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #85 on: January 20, 2015, 08:45:06 AM »
In some cases faulty's explanation works... I tend to avoid anything involving physical activity, even getting up and walk to get the things needed to get started.I'm sure the reason is my lack of moving skills, which are very weak. But when I was studying I simply preferred to party and as someone here pointed out when you can do that and still get the things done last minute, why not? :)

Offline j_menz

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #86 on: January 20, 2015, 11:21:01 AM »
It's the opposite of what you define.

Ability is simply being able to do something.  Skill is being able to do something well. Skill is specific to the task at hand.  E.g. You may have the skills to play "chopsticks" but you don't have the skills to play Chopin's Etudes.  But in both cases, you have the ability to play the piano.  However, in the Etude, you expect it to require a great degree of skill.


Rubbish! You have it round the wrong way (quelle surprise).

You have the ability to play chopsticks. You have the ability to play Chopin etudes. If chopsticks is the limit of you ability on the piano you aren't very skilful; if you are able to play the Chopin etudes chances are you are a skilful pianist.

Go buy a dictionary and stop trying to re-invent English.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline outin

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #87 on: January 20, 2015, 11:25:13 AM »
You have the ability to play chopsticks. You have the ability to play Chopin etudes. If chopsticks is the limit of you ability on the piano you aren't very skilful; if you are able to play the Chopin etudes chances are you are a skilful pianist.

Did you forget that almost all pianists, professionals inluded, cannot properly play the piano? So their ability to play the etudes says nothing about their skill level ;)

Offline j_menz

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #88 on: January 20, 2015, 11:30:21 AM »
Did you forget that almost all pianists, professionals inluded, cannot properly play the piano? So their ability to play the etudes says nothing about their skill level ;)

Don't drink the green cordial.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline outin

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #89 on: January 20, 2015, 11:35:01 AM »
Don't drink the green cordial.

No idea what it is but it looks really delicious!

Offline j_menz

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #90 on: January 20, 2015, 11:46:23 AM »
No idea what it is but it looks really delicious!

Before you take a sip, google Jim Jones, Jonestown, Guyana.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline outin

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #91 on: January 20, 2015, 11:52:58 AM »
Before you take a sip, google Jim Jones, Jonestown, Guyana.

Good old Jim!

Offline timothy42b

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #92 on: January 20, 2015, 01:07:45 PM »
Couple of snips from an article:

Quote
There’s no single type of procrastinator, but several general impressions have emerged over years of research. Chronic procrastinators have perpetual problems finishing tasks, while situational ones delay based on the task itself. A perfect storm of procrastination occurs when an unpleasant task meets a person who’s high in impulsivity and low in self-discipline. (The behavior is strongly linked with the Big Five personality trait of conscientiousness.) Most delayers betray a tendency for self-defeat, but they can arrive at this point from either a negative state (fear of failure, for instance, or perfectionism) or a positive one (the joy of temptation). All told, these qualities have led researchers to call procrastination the “quintessential” breakdown of self-control.

Quote
Recently the behavioral research into procrastination has ventured beyond cognition, emotion, and personality, into the realm of neuropsychology. The frontal systems of the brain are known to be involved in a number of processes that overlap with self-regulation. These behaviors — problem-solving, planning, self-control, and the like — fall under the domain of executive functioning. Oddly enough, no one had ever examined a connection between this part of the brain and procrastination, says Laura Rabin of Brooklyn College.
 
“Given the role of executive functioning in the initiation and completion of complex behaviors, it was surprising to me that previous research had not systematically examined the relationship between aspects of executive functioning and academic procrastination — a behavior I see regularly in students but have yet to fully understand, and by extension help remediate,” says Rabin.
 
To address this gap in the literature, Rabin and colleagues gathered a sample of 212 students and assessed them first for procrastination, then on the nine clinical subscales of executive functioning: impulsivity, self-monitoring, planning and organization, activity shifting, task initiation, task monitoring, emotional control, working memory, and general orderliness. The researchers expected to find a link between procrastination and a few of the subscales (namely, the first four in the list above). As it happened, procrastinators showed significant associations with all nine, Rabin’s team reported in a 2011 issue of the Journal of Clinical and Experimental Neuropsychology.


faulty's approach is similar to that of a doctor who treats only colds and flu, and denies cancer or heart failure exist.  There are people on this forum with deficits in executive function that cannot be treated with his simplistic ideas. 
Tim

Offline pianoplunker

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #93 on: January 20, 2015, 01:19:31 PM »
Since it involves moving two wheelie bins from a spot on the drive to a spot on the kerbside, I believe I have adequate skill. Admittedly, I don't do doughnuts or loop the loops, but since I rarely have an audience I doubt that matters much.

And since I place them neatly and the professional garbage collectors seem incapable of that, I doubt they have much to teach me.

You dismiss all the skill involved to drive a truck. You, wearing a robe and placing trash cans so delicately is completely different than the skill and ability it takes to come pick it up, empty, and leave the cans haphazard at your curb

Offline j_menz

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #94 on: January 20, 2015, 11:34:50 PM »
You dismiss all the skill involved to drive a truck.

Not at all. It isn't a skill having any bearing on my task, though.

Oh, and robe?  :o
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline outin

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #95 on: January 21, 2015, 05:38:44 AM »

Oh, and robe?  :o

I guess he doesn't really know you that well...


Offline faulty_damper

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #96 on: January 21, 2015, 06:38:21 AM »
Couple of snips from an article:

faulty's approach is similar to that of a doctor who treats only colds and flu, and denies cancer or heart failure exist.  There are people on this forum with deficits in executive function that cannot be treated with his simplistic ideas. 

I know exactly who you quoted: Joseph A. Ferrari.  He's perhaps the most prolific of the procrastination researchers and one whose work I started reading in my early study of the topic.  However, he fails to present the problem in a way that can be solved.  He, and many others, failed to understand the problem and assumed that procrastination was something we had control over.  He's studied this for decades and every time he meets dead ends.  During the 90s, frustrated by the lack of progress on this topic, the rise of neuroscience offered a new avenue to explore.  However, what he noted in those neuro-imaging studies were correlations, not causations.  But, it was enough since it offered a way out of the problem: procrastination is a neurological problem and that we are "hardwired" to procrastinate.  But, the problem with making this claim is that it contradicts his own research in a myriad of ways.  For one thing, and perhaps most pertinent, people who procrastinate don't procrastinate on every task.  If it truly were neurological, then procrastinators should procrastinate on most everything.  But that's just not the case.

Further, about the many different types of procrastinators, that's false.  He's discussing the fact that avoidant behaviors express themselves differently.  After failing to find solutions to procrastination, the research turned to identifying procrastinators.  This is the personality research that took over for the better part of two decades because they ran out of ideas on how to solve the problem.

Anyway, Ferrari edited together a book of procrastination research.  Not a layperson-friendly read since it pretty much requires a college education in the sciences to understand the jargon and format.  It's also pretty boring but most of these kinds of "books" are.

And stop being an ass.  You don't know this subject so stop pretending you do.  When you've successfully helped others with their procrastination, then you can start talking.  But right now, you don't know any of the research.  Wikipedia is out of date on the topic.  So is Psychology Today.

Lastly, what is a "framework"?  It's a system that supports a concept.  What happens within that framework is flexible but the framework provides boundaries of what's possible.

Offline timothy42b

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #97 on: January 21, 2015, 02:33:49 PM »
I know exactly who you quoted: Joseph A. Ferrari.  He's perhaps the most prolific of the procrastination researchers and one whose work I started reading in my early study of the topic. 

The most prolific of the researchers, as well as all the others who've studied the topic, are wrong and faulty is right.

That is certainly possible. 

But is there a reason I should accept that bald claim?  Do you possibly have credentials of your own? 
Tim

Offline pianoplunker

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #98 on: January 22, 2015, 04:45:47 AM »
Not at all. It isn't a skill having any bearing on my task, though.

Oh, and robe?  :o

Oh, I thought everybody woke up early and quickly threw on a robe to charge the garbage to the curb because it was forgotten the night before, because of procrastinating.

Offline pianoplunker

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Re: how to fight procrastination?
«Reply #99 on: January 22, 2015, 04:47:52 AM »
I guess he doesn't really know you that well...



I may not know him that well , but I bet there are at least ten metronomes in that bag - a true crusader indeed