how do you do those trills in 3rd movement of petrushka

[theholygideons]

In the right hand, on measures 1-2 of the 3rd movement, are some trills. I'm thinking hand span is preventing me from doing it, since I can only barely reach a 10th. Care to share some insights?

[perfect_pitch]

In the right hand, on measures 1-2 of the 3rd movement, are some trills. I'm thinking hand span is preventing me from doing it, since I can only barely reach a 10th. Care to share some insights?

If it's bar's 1 & 2, of the 3rd movement, then I presume you mean the semiquaver tremolo in the Shrovetide Fair (not a trill technically).

Try the fingers 145 for the D F# A, and 23 for C# E.

[theholygideons]

If it's bar's 1 & 2, of the 3rd movement, then I presume you mean the semiquaver tremolo in the Shrovetide Fair (not a trill technically).

Try the fingers 145 for the D F# A, and 23 for C# E.

That's what the score says, the most efficient way by far, yet my hands physically have trouble playing all the notes together. Only if I omit the f# in the right hand does it work. This is sad...

[theholygideons]

I'm at the df#a/gb and the df#a/eg tremolo now. They're super uncomfortable, even more so than the first few measures... perhaps there is a trick or is this one of those techniques where you either have it or you don't?

[perfect_pitch]

I'm at the df#a/gb and the df#a/eg tremolo now. They're super uncomfortable, even more so than the first few measures... perhaps there is a trick or is this one of those techniques where you either have it or you don't?

I managed to get used to it... I'm sure you can to. There is no trick, but try dotted semiquaver-demisemiquaver practice ensuring you're getting all the notes played perfectly in sync, and the same with demisemiquaver-dotted semiquaver practice.

Might help. Make sure you REALLY, really relax your hands.

[theholygideons]

I managed to get used to it... I'm sure you can to. There is no trick, but try dotted semiquaver-demisemiquaver practice ensuring you're getting all the notes played perfectly in sync, and the same with demisemiquaver-dotted semiquaver practice.

Might help. Make sure you REALLY, really relax your hands.

how large are your hands? i've tried practising those tremolos, but still get the feeling in my stomach that they will start jamming up. How long did it take you to master the first page up to speed, don't tell me just a couple of days...

[faulty_damper]

Where is your 5 placed?  Is it deep by the fallboard or close the edge?

[theholygideons]

Where is your 5 placed?  Is it deep by the fallboard or close the edge?

not literally jamming between the black keys, dude. Figuratively speaking, i tense up when i play those chord tremolos. But they're closer to the edge

[faulty_damper]

I mean location, not what you're doing.  Another way to ask: what is the alignment of the forearm and hand?

[theholygideons]

I mean location, not what you're doing.  Another way to ask: what is the alignment of the forearm and hand?

pretty much in line.. wrist is about keyboard height

[faulty_damper]

I just realized you've been an *** toward me.
So I don't even know why I'm trying to help you.
And considering you misunderstand what I'm trying to describe,
Good luck!

[theholygideons]

I just realized you've been an *** toward me.
So I don't even know why I'm trying to help you.
And considering you misunderstand what I'm trying to describe,
Good luck!

What on earth are you talking about. You ask whether my forearm and hand were in alignment. How would I understand what you're trying to communicate to me. I have no idea what you are trying to get at. I am no physician, please explain in plain speak. I can play the first page at 50, but the metronome marking is 85.. feels like such a long way away. Say something, black person!   

[perfect_pitch]

how large are your hands? i've tried practising those tremolos, but still get the feeling in my stomach that they will start jamming up. How long did it take you to master the first page up to speed, don't tell me just a couple of days...

Oh believe me... as much as I wish I could say 'a couple of days', it took me a while. Considering that with 3 other large pieces, I was learning this, I spent 6 months memorising the music for all 4 pieces (this being one of them), then 6 months at half speed, just to get it perfect. Then I slowly sped it up over a few more months.

Keep in mind I was doing other pieces as well (a Bach Partita, Beethoven Sonata and the Paganini variations by Brahms).

And I can 'just' reach a tenth... not comfortably though.

[pianoman53]

What Faulty is trying to say is: Just play it faster.

[j_menz]

And considering you misunderstand what I'm trying to describe,

You've asked two questions, or more accurately (and by your own statement)  the same question two different ways. You haven't actually "described" anything. So what is there to misunderstand?

If you actually have a point, stop teasing and get to it.

[theholygideons]

Where is your 5 placed?  Is it deep by the fallboard or close the edge?

eh you're right! thanks faulty. When i extend my 3rd and 4th fingers instead of curling them, it's easier to tremolo!.

[faulty_damper]

Now figure out that when viewed from above, how is your arm and hand aligned in relation to the keyboard?  Is it straight or is it angled?

[theholygideons]

Now figure out that when viewed from above, how is your arm and hand aligned in relation to the keyboard?  Is it straight or is it angled?

it's angled, i realise that straight would cause tension. I've underestimated you.

[lisztomania7]

Hello all, I'm new to this forum. 

To the first question that was posed - the fingering you were suggested to take is definitely the only way to go.  You kind of rock back and forth between 1-4-5 on D-F#-A and 2-3 on C#-E.  It's the only thing that really works.  Your wrist drops down on 1-4-5 and comes up on 2-3.  The fingers aren't really doing the work, but rather just staying in place while the wrist moves.  Practice it a little bit with relaxed wrists rocking up and down - you'll see it's not particularly difficult at about 2/3 tempo.  Getting it up to full speed will just take relaxation, patience and time.  However, this is one of the easier parts of this MONSTROUS movement, which leads me to my question....

I keep wondering if it's humanly possible (completely serious) to play - as written - the part in the left hand beginning in measure 43.  I know for a fact that many, if not all, performers leave out a few notes of this tremolo, but I'm a person that hates "cheating" at the piano and wonder if any pianist, living or dead, plays it exactly as written.

It's a tremolo between A-C-D and G-Bb in the left hand, all compacted into one small hand position. "Full tempo" as indicated in my score would be quarter note = 126.  I can't even comprehend this section at full tempo, even though it only last six measures.  I don't want to get so fatigued as to injure my hand.  Does anyone who's played this piece have experience with this section and could you let us know what you did?  Thanks!!

P.S. This particular section was addressed in a very old thread, but I don't know if they ever really reached a conclusion:  https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=4000.0

[lisztomania7]

I think I may have figured out the solution to my issue. 

In measures 43 through 44, though it's extremely difficult, it seems like after a LOT (!) of careful practice it may be possible to play the tremolo in the bottom notes as follows:  4-2 on A-C and 5-3 on G-B flat, all while the left thumb plays the moving eighth notes (D, E, D, F, etc.).  This is very difficult at tempo, but I guess it's possible.  I'll work towards it very slowly and carefully, being sure not to strain my hand.

In measures 45 through 48, I had been trying to use 4-2-1 on A-C-D and 5-3 on G-B flat, and it just seemed impossible leading up to quarter note = 100 (and it needs to be at quarter note = 126, so not even close to tempo).  I just realized today that this isn't the way to go, and this should have been obvious from the outset.  The thumb should take the two adjacent white notes.  Therefore, the fingering for these measures should be 3-1 on A-C-D (thumb on C&D), and 4-2 on G-B flat.  This is still a little awkward, but much more sensible than the fingering I had been using and allows better endurance, since it switches the fingers used in mm. 43-44.

Measures 57-58 are very difficult, and the left hand is very similar to measures 43-44.  The same fingering should be employed - except now the thumb of the left hand is playing different notes, so the stretch is a little wider.  The right hand is very tricky here, but only one fingering is really possible, so I'll just practice it slowly.

Darn you, Stravinsky!!  You must hate us pianists (apparently), but your music is marvelous anyway.  I can't think of anything as difficult as this movement except perhaps Liszt's 'Feux Follets' or one of the other super-virtuoso pieces.  A long road of practicing is ahead.....

[theholygideons]

ive got the first page to around 60 bpm, except for the bloody d#fa/eg tremolo with 135/24 fingering. it keeps cramming... do you guys begin the piece at piano? I think if you started at forte, as in the orchestral score or like pollini, your fingers would fall off on the first page.

[perfect_pitch]

ive got the first page to around 60 bpm, except for the bloody d#fa/eg tremolo with 135/24 fingering. it keeps cramming... do you guys begin the piece at piano? I think if you started at forte, as in the orchestral score or like pollini, your fingers would fall off on the first page.

I'd say more of a very laid back forte. Don't think forte as in Beethoven forte or Chopin forte... Think of it as more of a rustling of Shoppers in the Fair, with the pedal the sound will blend slightly and build.

To me it should be more of a bustling of people moving... and not a stampede. Don't play it too loudly and relax the hand as much as possible.

Darn you, Stravinsky!!  You must hate us pianists (apparently), but your music is marvelous anyway.  I can't think of anything as difficult as this movement.....

Have you tried Brahms Variations on a theme by Paganini??? Makes this look easy-(ish).

[theholygideons]

Have you tried Brahms Variations on a theme by Paganini??? Makes this look easy-(ish).

it is evident to me that you have a natural propensity for the tremolos....

Apart from watching the ballet, do you know of any online resources or journals about petrushka?

[perfect_pitch]

it is evident to me that you have a natural propensity for the tremolos....

HAAAA?!? F@#$ no... I worked on that piece for ages. I WISH I had a natural propensity for them, but it's just determination and caffeine that helped me get them under control.

Mmmm... as for resources, no... I don't really know any specifically on the Ballet Petrushka.

Sorry man... But here were my Program notes from years ago when I performed it. Hope it gives you something to think about.

Igor Stravinsky—Trois mouvements de Petrouchka

Petrushka is the second ballet of three that Stravinsky wrote for Serge Diaghilev’s ballet company, the Ballet Russe and was completed in 1911. The ballet recounts the story of a magician (posing as a puppeteer) during Shrovetide festival. He begins mesmerising his audience by way of a melody with his flute causing the three puppets (Petrushka, the Ballerina and the Moor) to dance without the use of strings. At this point, the transcription commences with the Russian dance.

Through the music that the magician plays, he bestows upon them feeling & emotion. Petrushka who is the most aware, is tormented by the magician’s cruelty as well as his hideous appearance. In his cell, Petrushka seeks consolation from the lovely Ballerina. She, however is seduced by the Moor while Petrushka’s increasing jealousy over their love inflames him. The ‘Petrushka chord’ (the super-imposition of the C Major and F# Major chord tonalities) is heard many times in the second movement (Petrushka’s cell) representing the emotions of shock and horror that Petrushka feels.

The Shrovetide fair (third movement) begins with the sound of chords and cross-rhythms conveying a sense of great activity where merchants pedal their goods and troupes of masqueraders and gypsies add to the sense of excitement. During this scene, the puppets have managed to escape from the theatre and Petrushka and the Moor fight to the death. Petrushka is overwhelmed by a blow from the Moor’s sabre and the puppeteer picks up Petrushka’s lifeless wooden body as bystanders look on. The final moment describes how Petrushka’s ghost is seen haunting the puppeteer leaving the audience to ponder whether Petrushka had been truly transformed or was just a puppet.

 The piano transcription of the orchestral score for Arthur Rubenstein was completed ten years after its premiere, in the hope of encouraging him to demonstrate his virtuosity through Stravinsky’s piano compositions. ‘Three movements from Petrushka for solo piano’ endeavours to show the performer’s virtuosic abilities with wild and rapid jumps, complex polyrhythms, extremely fast scales, glissandi, and tremolos designed to create an overwhelming vibrant fantasy.

[lisztomania7]

Have you tried Brahms Variations on a theme by Paganini??? Makes this look easy-(ish).

I've looked at it.....and then ran away and started playing 'Chopsticks'.   

I'm hoping to learn both books of Brahms-Paganini over the next few years....they're enormously technically difficult, but I think the level of difficulty for individual techniques depends on the pianist.  For me, I would say that there are many parts of Petrouchka that are just as challenging. 

An entire performance of both books of the Brahms-Paganini Variations might just be the most technically ambitious project ever.  I'm pretty sure my fingers would fall off.