Tiny hands: How to play fast octave scales if I can only reach an octave max?

[ffchopinist]

Hello, fellow Piano Street-ers!  I have a problem that's been bugging me throughout my entire piano life (~10 yrs of lessons, then another 5-10 yrs of playing recreationally without a teacher):

Most of the larger romantic works I love require long passages of rapid 16th note octave scales, which I can't manage to execute fast enough without hitting some nearby notes.   This brings me to my question:

Does anyone with similarly sized hands (can only reach an octave with 1-5 fingers at edge of keys) have any advice or success stories on being able to play rapid, long, blocked octave runs?  

Before that, some relevant background on hand size, stretches I have tried, the pieces I am trying to play, etc.:

I have tiny hands - my left hand can reach an octave cleanly, and my right hand can reach an octave but just barely.  I can only reach the octave on white notes with my right hand if I play *at the edge of the keys*. I can do large broken chords with no problem (via rolling method) and can do short spurts but can't do the long octave runs necessary in so many of the works I like - I especially struggle with chromatic octave runs, since my right hand has to shift from the edge of the keys (to play the white notes) then move up quickly to play black keys, repeat, etc. (Fortunately, I can play a black key octave with 1 and 4, so that alleviates some of the discomfort, but I can't comfortably play a white key octave with 1 and 4 without hitting something else at present or without having to angle my entire wrist inward dramatically (thus my whole body must ship, since my arm and elbow dig into my side - it takes too much time to do quickly.)

I've tried many of the things mentioned in various forum threads here, but most of them either don't apply or haven't worked.

Stretching: My hands probably aren't going to stretch anymore - I've used all sorts of stretching devices prescribed by my teacher when I was a kid, and my right hand when stretched out is nearly in a parallel line to the keys  (ie: my hand is nearly doing a "split") when I play the octave.  I can  Therefore, I don't have enough "arch" room in the right hand to play fast blocked octave runs without hitting someone else.  I don't think there's much more room (if any) for them to stretch out without injury, since I've been playing since I was a kid and am now 30 yrs old.

Bouncing: I tried bouncing, but this won't work with my right hand - as I mentioned above, I can only play the octave with my fingers and wrist at the far edge of the keys (so I can't easily bounce with the right hand esp in chromatic octave scales, due to not being able to play the octave in the "middle" of the keys). Similarly, I tried using my shoulders more, but that didn't work.

Wrist: I tried using wrist movements, but this doesn't work, because I need my hand span to be fully outstretched to reach the octave (wrist movements tend to mess this up) -  not sure if I'm doing something wrong here.

Adapting the piece to fit a small hand: While this works for blocked large chords (where you can roll or drop a note), sadly this doesn't apply to long octave runs in 16th notes - you either hit the octave notes or you don't - there's nothing to drop or roll.

Choosing "easier" pieces for small hands or pieces without octave runs - I've seen this suggested elsewhere, but the heart wants to play what it wants to play! I'm determined to learn Hungarian Rhapsody, Chopin's Winter Wind Etude, Liszt's Mazeppa and La Campanella, and hopefully some challenging, beautiful pieces by Scriabin, Rachmaninoff, Schumann, etc. that all have rapid, long octave runs. They're on my piano bucket list, and I love them to pieces.

I've attached some visuals to hopefully help illustrate (will also add them to the initial post).








 
Does anyone with similarly sized hands (can only reach an octave with 1-5 fingers at edge of keys) have any advice or success stories on being able to play rapid, long, blocked octave runs?

If so, I'd love any advice you have, as I've been struggling with this for ages. Thanks in advance, and your input is much appreciated.

--

P.S. This is my first post on Piano Street - after lurking silently for some time, I thought I'd take the plunge and become a more active member. Nice to meet you all!

[verqueue]

I met only one person who have smaller hands than me - she could reach only barely an octave. But I don't know if she was using stretching exercises in her past. I know that my professor at conservatory assigned her Debussy's Etude with octaves. And after practicing this piece for half of year she stopped having problems with octave runs. Maybe she wasn't stretched enough...

Here is a documentary about pianist, who has small hands and short fifth finger:

but I think she has bigger hands than you.

EDIT: about this pianist: she uses in octave runs fourth finger instead fifth... It's beacause her hand shape.

[outin]

As I wrote in the other thread I have the same issue. My hand is extremely narrow and my thumb is not straight and does not open much. But I do have a long 4th. So I can actually use my 4th for white key octaves as well, but I twist my wrist which my teacher absolutely forbids and it might cause problems in the long run.

I can play the RH white key octave at the outside edge of the keys with 1-5, but not very comfortably. Then I have found two ways to to play octaves deeper in the keys, but neither of them work reliably when playing fast:

The other way is to fall down on the keys with 1st and 5th and "slide" the fingers slightly out and towards the fallboard. This streches the fingers open a bit more than what I can do myself.

The other way is to "grab" the inner key with 1-5 fingertips and this avoids accidently playing the inner key. But this easily creates tension and slows one down.

When it comes to streching exercises, they do make a tiny difference, but not enough to make the octaves comfortable.

In the other thread someone mentioned the narrower keyboards. That's on my list to get one day, but so far I am stuck with a regular one. So after struggling with this issue for about 2 years I decided to give up and just avoid pieces that require fast octave runs.

[amytsuda]

@verqueue, the lady's hands in video look exactly like mine. I have short fifth fingers, short and low thums and long middle fingers, and in fact, I use 4th in the Octave runs, because of the shape of my hands. I am going to watch this video! 

I have a friend who has hands that can reach Octave at the edge on white keys and has rather shorter (or more aligned) middle and fourth fingers so she can't use forth in Octave runs. But she plays Chopin, Brahms, Schumann and Rachmaninoff. I will ask her what magics she is using. She performs and seems to have no problems despite her hand size. One thing I see is she sits very high and her arms and hands are extremely relaxed. She is a pianissimo player. Her interpretation is definitely not those of masculine brilliant ones, subtle, sensitive and own even repertoires that are usually played loud and masculine.

[ffchopinist]

@Amy - Sitting higher is a great idea - I hadn't thought that might make a huge difference, but I'll certainly try. Thanks for the idea!  When you say she plays Chopin, Rachmaninoff, does that include the pieces with the parallel octave runs or only the pieces "suitable for small hands"?  (ex: I can play Chopin and Rachmaninoff pieces that don't have parallel octave runs in 16th notes by rolling chords and occasionally dropping a note here and there with no problem... but it's the long-winded parallel octave scales that are the problem - can't roll or drop anything there =/ )

@outin - I can totally relate (and commiserate)! Hope you don't give up permanently on those pieces and we both find a way somehow.

@ver - thanks for sharing the vid!

[stevensk]

Skip playing fast octaves then! Your problem has dissapeared

[amytsuda]

Hmmmm. She just played Chopin Fantasy, but I guess that doesn't have parallel chromatic octave scales. I will ask her.

When I think about, more women play piano than men? The manufacturer should start making women size keyboard. They can make a better business!

[ffchopinist]

Hmmmm. She just played Chopin Fantasy, but I guess that doesn't have parallel chromatic octave scales. I will ask her.

When I think about, more women play piano than men? The manufacturer should start making women size keyboard. They can make a better business!

Speaking of keyboards for smaller hands, someone did post about it in one of the answers in the "Performance" forum (as I also posted this thread there  due to not being sure where it fit): 

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=57535.0

It's a pretty interesting concept!  Sadly, it would only solve the problem if one only plays on his/her own piano - it would mean that playing recitals, community events, for friends, or for competitions wouldn't work, so I'm not considering it at the moment. :/ 

I did try sitting higher as you suggested just now (about 1.5 inches), and it did make it slightly easier!  (still some accuracy problems but better than my previous bench height)

[amytsuda]

I didn't realize you had pictures! Now I see our pictures, your hands are definitely able to do the octave scales I think!  I am not a piano teacher, but a few things I thought. 1) Can you really not play white key octave in the middle using 1-4? I think you can. Put 1-4 on the white key octave without pressing. Really relax, breath, and slowly lower you 1-4 fingers. I am sure you will find extra space even. 2) When you try to play octave in the middle of white keys with 1-5, make sure your thumb is really relaxed. Put emphasis on the pinkie and let the thumb just follow with no tension. Figure out the best sequence that works with least tension. All 1-4 is totally okay, but you can also put 1-5 here and there. The key is to keep the top notes coming out. In octave scales, if you go fast, and if your thumb is not making enough sounds here and there, you can sort of get away with it... (As I said I am NOT a teacher!!!!!)  I should stop here, probably the authority on this forum will come and kill me on giving those amateur opinions. Since I struggle with my hands, I just wanted to share the way I juggle things around.

By the way, the video is really good. This lady put me in shame. I can not complain about my hands...

[michael_c]

Here is a documentary about pianist, who has small hands and short fifth finger:

but I think she has bigger hands than you

Indeed her hands are bigger. She can span a tenth between thumb and fourth finger. Since her fifth fingers are short in relation to the other fingers, she says (at 4'16") that she uses the fourth for octaves and "dezimes" (tenths). Just after, you can see her take tenths (unbroken) with the left hand, at the beginning of Fabel from the Fantasiestücke.

[fifthelegy]

Hi there, was reading your post and thinking you must have TINY tiny hands!! But when I saw your pictures I realise they are very similar sized to my own - my octave span looks the same and I can just reach a 9th by doing what you said (hooking the pinky around after anchoring down one note)

After seeing your pics I believe that certainly you should be able to stretch it more? I have been doing stretching exercises religiously everyday for the past few months  and my span has increased by about 1/4 of a white note length. It doesn't sound like much but playing octaves and chords has become easier now. Octave scales are not the easiest thing in the world but I find for me the issue is more about accuracy rather than the stretch. When you play your octave although you say your hand is parallel to the keys, more importantly your fingers are not parallel yet, as in they are not 180 degrees angle which means that certainly you can increase your stretch. Our hands won't be as supple and open to stretching as they might be with kids and we'd be more prone to injury but as long as we are careful, over time they will stretch and any progress is good progress

[8_octaves]

I met only one person who have smaller hands than me - she could reach only barely an octave.

Hi ver,

there are some, I think, who could only barely reach an octave, too. For example, sources say that Anette Yesipoff, who was once, amongst some other women  , married to Th. Leschetitzky, had such small hands, too, but nevertheless she could play e.g. the 6th Rhapsody of Liszt very fast!

Flexibility and dexterity could compensate, in my opinion, a small spread to a certain degree, and hands of all piano players differ. Chopin's hand is said to have been not too big, but average-sized (maybe one could estimate or calculate its spread since there exists a replica-model of it), but he could, if neccessary, open it suddenly, then start playing, and by agility and dexterity snap open for spreads nobody would have estimated to be possible.

But there are limitations which we must accept. There are some chords in written music e.g. by Scriabin, or Ligeti, or others, which cannot be played with small hands, so people with small hands must solve such problems by playing arpeggio, or double a note, or applying e.g. one note of the chord as grace note.

Not everybody had relatively big hands: But Horowitz had relatively long hands (and fingers), which we can see in photos and videos of him, or Daniel Pollack, who can grab a duodecime and stretch a tredecime.

So I don't think ffchopinist has to worry, since there are methods already mentioned, too, to gradually enlarge the spread - up to a certain point.

Many greetings from 8_octaves!

[lostinidlewonder]

This might interest those with smaller hands.

[cbreemer]

Maybe people with small hands should not have a predilection for bravura piece with lots of fast octave runs. With lots of sweat you might be able to gain a little stretch but it will always be difficult. Stop torturing yourself and aspire to play music that doesn't need a large hand all the time
(which is probably 95% or more of the repertoire).

[ffchopinist]

Hi All! Original poster back with some good news:  With a few months of work, I've managed to get my hands to be able to play an octave with hands above the keys and quite comfortably at the edge of the keys.

To avoid duplication of posts, here are a few tips as to what I've been doing that's worked:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=57535.0

Hope this helps fellow small-handed pianists. Don't give up, and you are not alone. I think I have the smallest hands out of anyone I've ever met in person.  If I can do it, you can!

(...though do it safely!)

[mjames]

Wow I feel bad for undermining small handed pianists (especially women) now. I've always been around men that can play 12ths comfortably so i figured that I had small hands...

I can play 10ths comfortably on both hands and after reading this I'm very happy that I won the genetics lottery...

Congrats on your achievement tho.

 

[pencilart3]

I can play 10ths comfortably on both hands and after reading this I'm very happy that I won the genetics lottery...

No fair I have to reach to get a 9th.

[desherron]

Most of the larger romantic works I love require long passages of rapid 16th note octave scales, which I can't manage to execute fast enough without hitting some nearby notes.   This brings me to my question:

Does anyone with similarly sized hands (can only reach an octave with 1-5 fingers at edge of keys) have any advice or success stories on being able to play rapid, long, blocked octave runs? 

Let me say You should not be bothered with what is the size of Your hand.

Denis Matsuev has very small hands. He showed them while being interviewed by Vladimir Pozner - You can check out the video on tube. And, as Denis then added, piano playing is not about size of hands, it's about their quickness.

[outin]

Let me say You should not be bothered with what is the size of Your hand.

Denis Matsuev has very small hands. He showed them while being interviewed by Vladimir Pozner - You can check out the video on tube. And, as Denis then added, piano playing is not about size of hands, it's about their quickness.

Now that is just plain stupid. Dennis is an adult male with a normal span of an octave. Many males have short fingers, so they often claim to have small hands, but they have a wide palm to compensate for that. The OP is a female who cannot strech an octave. Did you even bother to read her whole post?

Piano playing is not about size (or shape) of the hands as long as they are large ENOUGH. When they are not, it's very much about that I'm afraid.

[desherron]

Now that is just plain stupid. Dennis is an adult male with a normal span of an octave. Many males have short fingers, so they often claim to have small hands, but they have a wide palm to compensate for that. The OP is a female who cannot strech an octave. Did you even bother to read her whole post?

Piano playing is not about size (or shape) of the hands as long as they are large ENOUGH. When they are not, it's very much about that I'm afraid.

Sorry my thoughts hurted You so much.

Still, actual plain stupidity is saying that piano playing is "very much about" size of hands. It's about willing and devotion - as anything else.

I hurted You again, I must admit, so sorry once more.

[outin]

Sorry my thoughts hurted You so much.

Still, actual plain stupidity is saying that piano playing is "very much about" size of hands. It's about willing and devotion - as anything else.

I hurted You again, I must admit, so sorry once more.

No, you did not hurt me. And I am sorry if I was insulting, I did not mean to imply that you are stupid, just that what you wrote was. It's a typical example of the attitude that is prevalent among (mostly but not entirely) male pianists: That it's all about practice and skill, not size, while it simply is not so. Some people were born with better equipment than others and they get to benefit from that. That's ok, but until you have walked in another person's shoes, it's not smart to make such claims, especially since there's plenty of research that proves otherwise.

True, very much was an overstatement for 9x,x% of players (cannot present actual statistics here) For the rest it's a constant issue.

[desherron]

No, you did not hurt me. And I am sorry if I was insulting, I did not mean to imply that you are stupid, just that what you wrote was. It's a typical example of the attitude that is prevalent among (mostly but not entirely) male pianists: That it's all about practice and skill, not size, while it simply is not so. Some people were born with better equipment than others and they get to benefit from that. That's ok, but until you have walked in another person's shoes, it's not smart to make such claims, especially since there's plenty of research that proves otherwise.

True, very much was an overstatement for 9x,x% of players (cannot present actual statistics here) For the rest it's a constant issue.

Yes, that is straight consequence of the fact that piano music is written by male composers, I guess. Anyway, I do not really think Kobayashi, for example, has big hands, and it does not prevent her from playing georgeously.

ffchopinist is 30. Take a look at Varya Kutuzova (here with forementioned Denis Matsuev) - she is 11 y.o. and is just absolutely brilliant:

By the by, I just can't get why women are so obsessed with their sizes. As for me, I appreciate skills, and, if you wish, overall charms, and do not really care about sizes and colors and haircuts. The same thing is in music  

P.S.: Not to be misunderstood. Skills I mentioned are skills of being infinitely kind and tender at home and being good cooker and mother for kids.

[outin]

Yes, that is straight consequence of the fact that piano music is written by male composers, I guess. Anyway, I do not really think Kobayashi, for example, has big hands, and it does not prevent her from playing georgeously.

ffchopinist is 30. Take a look at Varya Kutuzova (here with forementioned Denis Matsuev) - she is 11 y.o. and is just absolutely brilliant:

By the by, I just can't get why women are so obsessed with their sizes. As for me, I appreciate skills, and, if you wish, overall charms, and do not really care about sizes and colors and haircuts. The same thing is in music  

P.S.: Not to be misunderstood. Skills I mentioned are skills of being infinitely kind and tender at home and being good cooker and mother for kids.

I cannot understand most obsessions of women either...nor do I have any of the skills you mention 

But anyway, of course there will always be the super flexible and super talented that can compensate for small hands. But they are an exception. But if you look at the amount of male amateurs who are able to play large span repertoire with little experience (although often poorly) you can see how size matters. For someone who needs to compensate for small size all the time the workload is on a totally different level and that will limit the overall achievement and repertoire size. So while it may not be an impossible obstacle for most, it definitely matters.

[ffchopinist]

Hello, all. I wasn't going to jump in again here, but I now feel I unfortunately must speak up in a respectful manner:

In response to desherron's comment:

By the by, I just can't get why women are so obsessed with their sizes. As for me, I appreciate skills, and, if you wish, overall charms, and do not really care about sizes and colors and haircuts. The same thing is in music    P.S.: Not to be misunderstood. Skills I mentioned are skills of being infinitely kind and tender at home and being good cooker and mother for kids.

I know you probably didn't mean any offense, but this is actually extremely offensive to me on 2 counts even if you don't mean to be:

1) We female pianists with small hands are not "obsessed with our sizes" for the sake of vanity.  We who cannot reach an octave or just barely NEED to be able to reach an octave in order to play the advanced, standard classical piano repertoire.   What you have basically said is the same as saying to a crippled man born without functioning legs who is sitting in a wheelchair, "Why are you so obsessed with walking?"  or to a 5 foot tall basketball player, "Why do you care about your height?"  Yes, there are exceptions where the physically challenged can excel in a sport, instrument, etc.  Yes, if I was not aiming to be the best I can be as a CLASSICAL pianist, this would not be an issue.  Hand span is not an issue with pop.    However, the standard advanced classical repertoire consists of pieces that require fast chromatic octave scales or fast octave passages where a small hand that cannot reach an octave is particularly disadvantaged.  Just take a look at any of the ABRSM or RCM Diploma, Licentiate, Fellowship, etc. level syllabuses and look at the repertoire that is played at advanced competitions or in concerts.

 As you get more advanced, more and more repertoire demands at least a bare minimum hand span of a comfortable octave above the keys be achievable, or the pianist cannot physically play those pieces at all.    The piece the young girl in the video is playing is unfortunately not at the level of pieces us older, advanced pianists are required to play (though I'm not saying whether she is or isn't good at the piece she has chosen).   Yes, you can find advanced, challenging pieces of that level that don't demand as many octaves or occasionally have no octave chords at all (rare), but to be taken seriously as a classical pianist either as a conservatory, at a competition (amateur or otherwise), you MUST be able to play some of the big virtuoso pieces by Liszt, Rachmaninoff, etc., most of which demand an octave.    Yes, you can get around most of it it by rolling your chords, breaking or redistributing the chords, but you physically or creatively cannot get around  passages that require nothing but octave scales with no notes in between to drop and have it sound right.  (You cannot simply play Mazeppa with the bottom note in every octave passage dropped and only be left with the top notes in a competition.. it would sound ridiculous and earn you zero marks.)  Yes, there is far more to classical piano than playing competitively or playing big virtuoso pieces that require a hand span (I love and have played virtuoso pieces that are suitable for a smaller hand size that can barely reach an octave), but I do think that it is not a "bad" or "unrealistic" attitude to want to be the best we can be at what we do given the number of years we spend working at our art.  In fact, not being able to play some of these pieces due to hand size issues and having to choose pieces accordingly HAS been an issue for my teacher and I when I was still in school and competing in young artist competitions where everyone is playing pieces like Hungarian Rhapsody 2 and Liszt Transcendental Etudes....but I physically could not and had to choose what judges saw as "less demanding pieces" due to my hand sizes.   Granted, I am not nor aspire to be a professional musician (as I have a demanding but rewarding day job as an executive at a multinational company), but I would like to be able to physically play most if not all the pieces in the advanced repertoire and the pieces that I love...especially given the years and hours of hard work and dedication I have to put in (sometimes 100x the number of hours of someone who can easily reach the octave without having to hit it with a specific angle and precision of <1 mm).  For someone else with a small hand size or another female who may be seriously trying for a career in piano performance, not being able to span an octave is an enormous issue and one that should not be written off as "don't be obsessed with your size as a woman."

Again, this is not a matter of obsession or vanity.  It is a physical disadvantage to being able to play what has been widely regarded as the accepted standard, advanced classical repertoire.  To say that it is an obsession with size or to compare it with women's "other charms" unfortunately could be construed as offensive to small-handed, serious classical pianists, women, or to physically disadvantaged people anywhere.  So that you don't misunderstand, I could care less about my height, body size, or other things.... it's about hand span in relation to classical piano..  We are just trying to do what the rest of the population can do normally and are overcoming what is like a physical handicap in our craft. I cannot emphasize this enough.

As far as your words about appreciating women for being "kind and tender at home and being a good cooker and mother for kids,"  this is actually potentially upsetting to many women in the USA and West, as this is no longer the accepted way of thinking here.  Women are appreciated or hope to be appreciated for their intelligence, talents, capability in the workplace, among other things here... but I won't get into feminism or women's rights here since this is a piano board, and I'm assuming you may be from a different culture or generation.  Like @outin, I don't actually aim to be any of those things, but I understand there may be a cultural difference.   I shall therefore try and be respectful of other cultures and other people's opinions although they may differ from my own.  This is neither the time nor place for that discussion.

I know you mean no offense, so now that I've said this above...

Perhaps we can put to rest any and all discussions about "whether" and "why" small-handed pianists who can't span an octave.  Let's instead focus this thread and the other ones like it on HOW small-handed pianists can adapt pieces, choose technically challenging advanced standard repertoire that doesn't demand long octave passages, or safely stretch their hand to the minimum baseline span it needs to be if that works.

I mean no offense as well and hopefully made my points respectfully.  

Let's get back to making this thread productive  If you or anyone has any suggestions as to virtuoso classical solo pieces or a concerto in the repertoire of LRSM+ level or equivalent that doesn't require an octave hand span, I (and other small handed pianists who can barely do an octave chord) would love to hear them, though!    I'm always looking for pieces that are technically challenging enough to where I don't get bored but don't kill my hand.
[/b]

Ideas?

[hfmadopter]

Often people find one and four to span a little better than one and five. If you have to shift your body a bit when your hands are in front of you so be it. If you play hand over hand blocks starting in the bass with the right hand you have to do the same thing, a little lean a little shift. Look somethings gotta give, you have a small hand so you gotta deal with it. Someplace there is going to be a compromise. My teacher years ago had small hands, she could rip chords up and down the keyboard by spitting them, hold the center  note and used it to pivot to hit the upper note. It went off quite well but I'm 100% sure she didn't learn the technique over night. And 100% sure she knew it was a compromise. Your situation would be like me trying to do 10ths. NOT comfortable.

[desherron]

Wow. It is clear now. chopinist == feminist. No offences - pure fact.

Anyway:

I cannot understand most obsessions of women either...nor do I have any of the skills you mention 

But anyway, of course there will always be the super flexible and super talented that can compensate for small hands. But they are an exception. But if you look at the amount of male amateurs who are able to play large span repertoire with little experience (although often poorly) you can see how size matters. For someone who needs to compensate for small size all the time the workload is on a totally different level and that will limit the overall achievement and repertoire size. So while it may not be an impossible obstacle for most, it definitely matters.

Now that I cannot disagree.

As far as your words about appreciating women for being "kind and tender at home and being a good cooker and mother for kids,"  this is actually potentially upsetting to many women in the USA and West, as this is no longer the accepted way of thinking here.  Women are appreciated or hope to be appreciated for their intelligence, talents, capability in the workplace, among other things here...

No wonder your civilization is dying under both long continuing constant and recent flood of Latin (in States) or Arabian (in EU) refugees and immigrants. You will just get immerged in their traditional strong culture that is lacking such deviations.

We female pianists with small hands are not "obsessed with our sizes" for the sake of vanity.  We who cannot reach an octave or just barely NEED to be able to reach an octave in order to play the advanced, standard classical piano repertoire.   

<...>

Ideas?

Surely, yes. The idea is for women like you to stop to try to be a man. Period.

And, try to not to get me wrong, but your "We female pianists with small hands are not "obsessed with our sizes" for the sake of vanity.  We who cannot reach an octave or just barely NEED to be able to reach an octave in order to play the advanced, standard classical piano repertoire" is pure ugly feminism. What else will you NEED when your hands get huge? Higher testosteron to be as energized as Lang Lang or Matsuev?

Moreover, your example of a crippled man is just absolute inappropriate. It means you compare female with being a crippled male. It is just rediculous, c'mon!

We love you women as you are. Yes, we love your small hands. Yes, we love the fact that many things in this world can only be done by us, males. And, yes, we are just absolutely love the fact that many things in this world can only be done by women.

Again, take a look at the way Varya is shining while playing Mozart with V.Spivakov's "Moscow Virtuosos". She is happy to be a little woman with smallish hands and play grand - and it shows. And, it is so hard not to fell in love with her charm and beauty:

[outin]

Surely, yes. The idea is for women like you to stop to try to be a man. Period.

Oh dear, you just made quite a few enemies here I'm afraid...

It's a bit off topic, but I will comment shortly:

What you need to understand is that biological sex simply does not determine one's characteristics in the amount of what has long been the cultural norm. When the cultures change this changes as well. Much of it is learned socially, so is not predetermined by biology. Some things are, but this is also highly individual. There are men who have plenty of "female" characteristics and women who feel more connected to the masculine side in them. You may be aware that some eastern cultures have a higher understanding on how everyone (and everything) has opposite sides. Some women just have a bigger man inside of them than others and the other way round.

The above is why the concept of gender was introduced in research. One can be of male/female sex (biologically) but still have characteristics that are usually associated with the other sex. And with some people even to the extend that they often find it easier to identify with the oppsosite sex, while not having any insecurity or problem about their biological sex. Being female by sex simply does not guarantee that you will be nurturing or are able to do housework...Just like being a male does not guarantee that you can learn to repair a car. Those people don't have to TRY to be a man/woman, but instead in some cultures are more free to be who they really are as opposed to being forced into an unnatural norm.

[outin]

Again, take a look at the way Varya is shining while playing Mozart with V.Spivakov's "Moscow Virtuosos". She is happy to be a little woman with smallish hands and play grand - and it shows.

Then you are telling me I should just play the one composer I hate the most? 

[desherron]

Oh dear, you just made quite a few enemies here I'm afraid...

It's a bit off topic, but I will comment shortly:

What you need to understand is that biological sex simply does not determine one's characteristics in the amount of what has long been the cultural norm. When the cultures change this changes as well. Much of it is learned socially, so is not predetermined by biology. Some things are, but this is also highly individual. There are men who have plenty of "female" characteristics and women who feel more connected to the masculine side in them. You may be aware that some eastern cultures have a higher understanding on how everyone (and everything) has opposite sides. Some women just have a bigger man inside of them than others and the other way round.

The above is why the concept of gender was introduced in research. One can be of male/female sex (biologically) but still have characteristics that are usually associated with the other sex. And with some people even to the extend that they often find it easier to identify with the oppsosite sex, while not having any insecurity or problem about their biological sex. Being female by sex simply does not guarantee that you will be nurturing or are able to do housework...Just like being a male does not guarantee that you can learn to repair a car. Those people don't have to TRY to be a man/woman, but instead in some cultures are more free to be who they really are as opposed to being forced into an unnatural norm.

I am proud and glad and pleasured to be any feminist enemy. As I am who I am, it is only natural and doubtlessly no-brainer way for me to be.

Anyway, I am totally agree with you. That is the consequence of different Women Rights movements and that BS arownd and woman-oriented laws and judicial system of that kind. And it is clear why there is a common "once you go black you'll never get back" proverb and why it is so actual in States. I know two young ladies from States personally, so I'm not double talking. They say white males lack "that kind of spirit". Simple.

The lack of that Spirit - not that Size. I should note it personally for ccfeminist. Ups, sorry, ffchopinist.

Then you are telling me I should just play the one composer I hate the most? 

  You know, I just could not help falling in love with that young little lady. Just absolutely could not! Maybe this is because I have little baby-daughter - I do not know. 

[outin]

Anyway, I am totally agree with you. That is the consequence of different Women Rights movements and that BS arownd and woman-oriented laws and judicial system of that kind. And it is clear why there is a common "once you go black you'll never get back" proverb and why it is so actual in States. I know two young ladies from States personally, so I'm not double talking.

You know what? You would go absolutely grazy if you moved to where I live 

Because from my point of view US is not even a very good example of non gender-biased society, the laws may be there but the culture is pretty old-fashioned compared to what I am used to...

Maybe I should add that if we ever meet in person I advice you to shut your mouth, or I'll kick your a*ss, regardless of my hand span

[desherron]

You know what? You would go absolutely grazy if you moved to where I live 

Because from my point of view US is not even a very good example of non gender-biased society, the laws may be there but the culture is pretty old-fashioned compared to what I am used to...

Maybe I should add that if we ever meet in person I advice you to shut your mouth, or I'll kick your a*ss, regardless of my hand span

  Pleasure to give in to your advice!

[hfmadopter]

Maybe I should add that if we ever meet in person I advice you to shut your mouth, or I'll kick your a*ss, regardless of my hand span

Wow, some advanced culture you have going on there Outin.

[ffchopinist]

OK, this has gotten out of hand, and desherron has unfortunately rudely turned what was once a helpful thread for pianists into a thread about racism, sexism, nationalism.

Might I remind everyone (especially the person mentioned above) this is a thread about piano-playing, specifically designed for helping other pianists learn?

Why am I (and other women) getting attacked by desherron for wanting to be able to play the standard classical piano repertoire and trying to get tips on it?   Why are "white men" and "black men" getting attacked here...?

I wrote what I thought was a very respectful, thoughtful response earlier (though I could have been very intolerant and said a number of equally offensive things) and was met with bashing of me being female, being accused of "wanting to be like a man" just for wanting to play Liszt, Rachmaninoff, etc., got bashed for living in the United States, and got bashed for being a "feminist" like it's a dirty word.  (Though I never considered myself a feminist, I don't think it's an insult.)  

I am here to improve my piano playing and to help others with tips I find along the way.   I am not here to take insults for wanting to be able to play what has been dictated by society, music conservatories, teachers, and the community as the standard advanced classical repertoire demands and trying to find creative workarounds for it.

Let's just ignore anyone who tries to get into politics, racism, or sexism here altogether and focus on piano tips for those with small hands in this thread, please.   The political discussions can go to another forum.    Otherwise, we may as well all migrate to Piano World or a different forum where there are less offensive people attacking those of us who are serious pianists and actually trying to hone our skills.  Most of desherron's comments here don't really warrant a response, since he hasn't actually said anything relevant to the topic of this thread, so we may as well either ignore or try to migrate our discussion elsewhere if it looks like this "student's corner" thread has been taking over by gender-bashers.

Moving on.....  

fhmadopter - Good tips on voicing the top notes and doing the hand pivot! I've been trying to practice the pivot myself, and it definitely takes practice.  

Outin, I got your PM - will respond there, too!