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Topic: Does 'tone' really exist?!  (Read 9106 times)

Offline 8_octaves

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #50 on: May 01, 2015, 06:23:34 AM
The physical school of thought believes, because of the laws of physics/construction of the piano, that the tone produced by any pianist can only vary within a quite limited continuum.  Thus the force applied to the instrument becomes a prime factor, and then I believe also the speed as well.  But is there not a relationship between our tone and what can be emotionally conveyed through the instrument?  This is where we should step back and consider the greater picture of individuality in our playing.  We can convey emotion and feeling.  We can immediately recognize the playing of Arthur Rubinstein because the instrument is capable of transmitting his soul.  Or rather that human beings are of such power that we can affect the inert.  

The "hard" physics are therefore responsive to the emotional spectrum with which we can draw from. So being inflexible in this particular matter, matters of mere force and speed, having only a continued eye on the physics, deceives from what experience reveals.  I see a relationship in this to science, which arrogates a hold on truth, overstepping its boundaries of physical fact, for us in force and speed, a demagnifying of nature.  A transgression rich in time can be quenched always the same with truth's unvarying anvil.              

Hi goldentone,

the teacher I quoted wasn't only relying on the pure physical aspects. He relied on them as one of the basics which we have to accept, and, yes, the try to overstep the physical boundaries is a dangerous approach, I think, and can easily lead to nothing. But the teacher thought VERY MUCH further.

As follows: I will add exactly the passus ( and some others ) appending directly to the mentioning of the "How is it possible that Gieseking sounds better than a bad pianist?".

Quote
[...]pianist? In no language is there a word which is foolish by itself. Even the word "foolish" is not foolish; it's a word. But the slightest sentence can already be foolish or intelligent. And one tone has no esthetic value whatsoever unless in connection with other tones. No pianist plays one tone and then goes away; he plays a musical piece, with all its unlimited possibilites and variations. [...] A violinist, of course, can influence the quality of his tone because he is in direct contact with string. His vibrato can change the character of the tone considerably, or he can bow in infinitely different ways. Here we change the color of the tone only by changing the intensity. Each intensity has its own color due to the partials, or sounds produced by portions of the string which vibrate in turn after it is struck. For instance, if I strike this low C [graphics are added here], there are included in the sound [graphics are added here, of the partial-tones]. The number of partials included in the sound depends on how loudly we play. As you can see, some partials embellish the fundamental tone, but too many make it harsh and spoil it. An "empty" tone has too few. All of this sounds prosaic now, but there is still the possibility of playing beautifully, and I will speak about it later.[...]

And so he did...:

Quote
[...] And melody is a tremendously important part of music, though modern composers don't recognize it ( or perhaps they are taking into consideration this peculiarity of the piano and therefore don't write very beautiful melodies. ) . How shall we proceed then to play beautiful melodies like everyone else? We have to find some way, if not to play a real legato, to find a substitute for it.

A few years ago, a student said to me, "Mr. ..., please don't look," and played twice an arpeggio with pedal, and asked me to say which was legato and which staccato. He did this ten times, and ten times I guessed correctly the difference. He said, "Yes, there is a clear difference. But actually, there shouldn't be any difference when I use pedal."

And this bothered me. I tried it out with my other students, and almost one hundred percent of them noticed a difference between the two arpeggios. I didn't know why, because it seemed to me too that they should sound the same.

I went to a famous physicist, a specialist in acoustics, who said it was nonsense, of course there was no difference, and you couldn't hear it. But this didn't console me, because I heard it and so did everyone else.

So I had almost 2 years of sleepless nights.

Then one day I was sitting at the piano trying to figure it out (being always lazy about practicing) ; I tried with pedal and without, and noticed that with one single note there was no difference between legato and staccato with pedal.

Then the light came and I called my student and told him to come over. I said,

Quote
"Please, turn around now and don't look, and you won't hear any difference if I play just one note.

The whole thing is that when we are playing a succession of notes staccato we have a TENDENCY to play the tones EVENLY, and when we play legato we take some kind of crescendo, diminuendo, or ritardando. And if you played staccato WITH this rubato, using pedal, it would sound just like legato."

A rhythmically and dynamically even line never sounds completely legato on the piano. I will play a very legato scale -- it doesn't sound like a melody, does it? Now I will play the same scale with "expression", and you will hear the difference.

Being poor in legato and rich in dynamics, we must cheat and substitute for a real legato some kind of dynamic or tempo inflection. And it is what we are rich in that is our blessing -- dynamic and tempo possibilities.

That doesn't seem like very much, but it is more than you might think, and if we add the wealth of sounds that the pedals give us, all this makes the piano what the Russians call "royal" -- the king of instruments.[...]

Cordially, 8_octaves.


"Never be afraid to play before an artist.
The artist listens for that which is well done,
the person who knows nothing listens for the faults." (T. Carreño, quoting her 2nd teacher, Gottschalk.)

Offline michael_c

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #51 on: May 01, 2015, 10:32:16 AM
I guess what I am getting at - and back to Vladimir Horowitz - is that, though he is known for his flat fingered technique [as was Liszt], he also used curved fingers, straight fingers, et c., to achieve the myriad of tonal effects he wanted.

The issue under discussion is not how different pianists use different techniques to control the sound of the piano, it is what in that sound can actually be influenced by the pianist. Different pianists will use all sorts of different muscular motions; what we are discussing here is how the piano reacts to what they do.

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A staccato passage that is pedaled through should sound different than if it were played legato and pedaled through, depending on one's staccato technique(s), the angle of "attack", the shape of one's fingers to facilitate the desired tone, and many other things which also include the grand piano in question.

Once you are holding the pedal down, it makes no difference at all how long the key stays depressed. Hold down the pedal and play a phrase: you have no control of the length of the notes, their rate of decay is determined by the instrument. The only thing you can control is the shape of the phrase: the dynamic relationships between each successive note. If you give a melody an expressive contour by judicious variations of intensity and timing, it will sound more "legato" than if you play each note with the same intensity, in strict time.

8_octaves goes into more detail on this particular subject in his last post above.

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There are reasons so many pianists have preferred N.Y. Steinway grands . . . [snip]

Some people like the sound of this piano, some people prefer the sound of that piano. That has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.

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About grand piano hammer shanks, these are drop tested for resonance and sorted from the bass through the treble.

This is not standard practice, it's something that a few piano technicians like doing, without being clear about what they are actually achieving. They listen to the sound that the shank makes when dropped and give the shanks with the lowest sound to the lowest notes. Other things being equal, a shank that has a lower natural frequency will be more flexible than one with a higher one. In assigning the most flexible shanks to the lowest notes, all the technician has achieved is to make these notes slightly less predictable and slightly weaker.

I strongly suspect that the major manufacturers have better things to do with their time.

Quote
They are far more flexible than one would suppose. There are close up videos much better than the ones at Youtube which show this, and the double contact with the strings, and other such things.  How a key is accelerated definitely effects the energies of the hammer/hammer shanks for transference into the two contacts with the strings and with how much purity - or dissipation of energy and distortion - relative to the desired resonances.

As already stated, the more flexible the hammer, the more unpredictable. We can do all sorts of things with the acceleration of the key, changing the way the hammer moves before it leaves the escapement, but once it leaves the escapement all that is left to it is this:

- its momentum, which can no longer be influenced by the pianist
- possible vibrations caused by flexing of the shank

The vibrations simply add an element of unpredictability as to exactly where the hammer strikes the key, and possibly in which horizontal direction the contact point moves during the strike. These effects are completely out of the pianist's control, but happily for the pianist, as long as the shank is sufficiently rigid the effects are so small that they cannot be heard (see for instance Askenfeld, Measuring the motion of the piano hammer during string contact.)

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There are many theories of piano technique and each has its differences.

There are many theories of piano technique, yes, but we are not discussing their particular merits here. We are asking the question "is there a way to play a note twice at exactly the same volume, on the same piano, but with a difference in timbre?". This isn't a matter of taste, it's a case where an objective yes/no answer is possible.


Offline timothy42b

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #52 on: May 01, 2015, 12:22:16 PM
How a key is accelerated definitely effects the energies of the hammer/hammer shanks for transference into the two contacts with the strings and with how much purity - or dissipation of energy and distortion - relative to the desired resonances.


I'm sorry, but your use of the word definitely does not make you any more convincing.

Why should I believe this, when it is contrary not only to theory but to decades of experimental evidence? 

(I have tactfully refrained from commenting on the improper grammar of "effects" vs "affects" because this is an international list and I don't know if you are a native English speaker.) 
Tim

Offline michael_sayers

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #53 on: May 01, 2015, 02:57:24 PM
I'm sorry, but your use of the word definitely does not make you any more convincing.

Why should I believe this, when it is contrary not only to theory but to decades of experimental evidence?  

(I have tactfully refrained from commenting on the improper grammar of "effects" vs "affects" because this is an international list and I don't know if you are a native English speaker.)  

Hi Timothy,

Thanks for your observations!

I didn't say you should believe it.  The post was about Vladimir Horowitz who was not, to my knowledge, a pianist for any of the studies.  Why should I care about what a study says about the effect a pianist can impart (or not) to the timbre? ;)


Mvh,
Michael

Offline michael_c

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #54 on: May 01, 2015, 04:50:55 PM
Here's some more information on those bending hammer shanks. In a discussion at Pianoworld.com about composite hammer shanks, Bruce Clark, an engineer from Mason and Hamlin, goes into some detail on what happens while the hammer is moving towards the string:

Quote
Most piano technicians and musicians don't really understand this idea of flex in a hammer shank. Commonly, flex is thought of as the shank bending backwards when the key is initially struck. Somewhere around halfway through its motion the shank and hammer spring forward so, upon impact, the hammer is travelling faster than it otherwise would. Thus, the commenter believing that a flexible shank helps the hammer rebound from the string faster.

Many of us were taught this; however this idea is completely wrong.

What is referred as flex is more properly referred to as an oscillation. If you view our high speed videos, and I think someone else put the link up in this conversation, you will see what I mean. This video was shot at 7000 frames a second by the company utilized by, among others, Myth Busters.

Upon actuation by the key we see a number of action parts bending from the load. The weight of the hammer causes the shank to bend backwards however this is very short lived. The hammer and shank then return to 'zero' and then overshoot. At this point, the hammer winds up forward from where it should be with the shank bent the opposite way that intuitively we would suppose. And then this process repeats several times, that is oscillates, before the hammer hits the string.

Because the hammer can be moving front to back in either direction when it hits the string, likely the orientation of the hammer in relation to the strike point is random upon contact. The hammer may hit on either side of the proper strike point.


From this it is quite clear: the flexing motion introduces random variations in the strike point of the hammer on the string. There is no possible way the pianist can take advantage of these variations.

Offline michael_c

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #55 on: May 01, 2015, 04:59:25 PM
There are close up videos much better than the ones at Youtube which show this, and the double contact with the strings, and other such things.

Hi, Michael,

I thought that a double contact between hammer and strings only happened in incorrectly regulated actions. Are you saying that there is always a double contact? Do you have a reference that documents this phenomenon?

Offline michael_sayers

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #56 on: May 01, 2015, 05:47:38 PM
Here's some more information on those bending hammer shanks. In a discussion at Pianoworld.com about composite hammer shanks, Bruce Clark, an engineer from Mason and Hamlin, goes into some detail on what happens while the hammer is moving towards the string:

Hi michael_c,

Thanks for the information!


Mvh,
Michael

Offline michael_sayers

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #57 on: May 01, 2015, 05:50:08 PM
Hi, Michael,

I thought that a double contact between hammer and strings only happened in incorrectly regulated actions. Are you saying that there is always a double contact? Do you have a reference that documents this phenomenon?

Hi michael_c,

Yes, in grand pianos there always is a double contact between hammer and strings.  I wish I could give a reference for this - unfortunately my music library is back in the U.S.

Has P.E. [?] Bruce Clark not noticed this?


Mvh,
Michael

Offline 8_octaves

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #58 on: May 01, 2015, 07:14:42 PM
Hi michael_c,

Yes, in grand pianos there always is a double contact between hammer and strings.  I wish I could give a reference for this - unfortunately my music library is back in the U.S.

Has P.E. [?] Bruce Clark not noticed this?


Mvh,
Michael

Hi Michael,

I don't think whether there's one, two or three contacts between hammer and strings would bring us very much further, speaking of the "tone" - question. Because, the contacts of hammers to strings occur after the point of escapement, and are thus, referring to people who want to CHANGE THE TONE COLOR even then, not controllable.

What I COULD imagine, is the following fictional scenario:

The hammer presses "into" the string, and the string gets energy. It gets deformed, - and NOW, fictionally, we STOP the hammer(head), which has just pressed "into" the string.. . The string itself begins to oscillate, and thus, swings BACK and re-touches, after having oscillated BACK, the hammerhead / felt, (which is - fictionally - still in position.)

But however: All these activities in real pianos and grands aren't controllable by the piano player.

Quote from: Teacher
[...]This little thing you see here called the "hopper" or "jack" pushes the bar as soon as the hammer reaches a certain level and it slides away under the hammer so that the hammer falls down. Actually, the hammer escapes even before it should reach the string, but is moved farther by MOMENTUM. [...]

As we can see, "Momentum" is important here, and Michael_c has already mentioned this word!

But, it's sometimes funny, too, to read about what people think they can do.

The man I quoted was VERY humorous!  ;D

He said this:

Quote from: Humorous man
[...]The best exercise is not Hanon, but one in which you first imagine a tone or succession or phrase and then try to play it exactly as you imagined it, the same way each time. And it will be difficult.

That's what, at the beginning of this thread, already was stated by a foreposter: "It's difficult." But nobody has stated that playing piano would be easy, I think.  :)

Ah, I forgot the humorous aspect:

Quote from: Humorous man part 2
Many years ago there was a champion chess player named Dr. Steiner

...[Addition by me: He was wrong here, or in the tape-recording it wasn't understood correctly by his student who typewrote it, because he should have meant the Chess-Grandmaster Wilhelm Steinitz, who was, ca. 1900, of the opinion that, by electrical power radiating from himself, he could move chessmen by sheer force of his will  ;D - thus, he had to go to mental hospital.]...

who eventually went mad and imagined that he could move chessmen by only the effort of his will;  ;D I assure you I have not gone that far.  8) I do not believe we can move the keys by the mere effort of our will; we have certainly to move our fingers. How to do so in the most practical and rational ways I will discuss in detail later.
 


If we could by the sheer force of our will influence the behavior of keys, strings and hammers, that would be nice, I think.  ;D But unfortunately, our evolution perhaps will need a while, still, until we will be able to achieve that.  8)

Cordially, 8_octaves!
"Never be afraid to play before an artist.
The artist listens for that which is well done,
the person who knows nothing listens for the faults." (T. Carreño, quoting her 2nd teacher, Gottschalk.)

Offline michael_sayers

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #59 on: May 01, 2015, 07:54:27 PM
Hi Michael,

I don't think whether there's one, two or three contacts between hammer and strings would bring us very much further, speaking of the "tone" - question. Because, the contacts of hammers to strings occur after the point of escapement, and are thus, referring to people who want to CHANGE THE TONE COLOR even then, not controllable.

What I COULD imagine, is the following fictional scenario:

The hammer presses "into" the string, and the string gets energy. It gets deformed, - and NOW, fictionally, we STOP the hammer(head), which has just pressed "into" the string.. . The string itself begins to oscillate, and thus, swings BACK and re-touches, after having oscillated BACK, the hammerhead / felt, (which is - fictionally - still in position.)

But however: All these activities in real pianos and grands aren't controllable by the piano player.

As we can see, "Momentum" is important here, and Michael_c has already mentioned this word!

But, it's sometimes funny, too, to read about what people think they can do.

The man I quoted was VERY humorous!  ;D

He said this:

That's what, at the beginning of this thread, already was stated by a foreposter: "It's difficult." But nobody has stated that playing piano would be easy, I think.  :)

Ah, I forgot the humorous aspect:
 

If we could by the sheer force of our will influence the behavior of keys, strings and hammers, that would be nice, I think.  ;D But unfortunately, our evolution perhaps will need a while, still, until we will be able to achieve that.  8)

Cordially, 8_octaves!

Hi 8_octaves,

The issue is that sheer force of the will is not enough to vary and manage the timbre - the technique for this has to be there, too.

Consider this:

As the dynamic increases, most pianists' fortissimo becomes harsh as the ratio of energy expenditure and management of key acceleration, both versus size of tone, decline.  And prematurely a wall is reached rather than us getting to hear a truly glorious, clear and resounding fortissimo.

But Josef Hofmann from the 1930s, whose massive sound is just like turning up a volume knob on a stereo and without diminution in tone quality, is an exception to this.  He didn't do it by magic, but through his superior technique.

Listen here, and especially to the fortissimo playing:



Sometimes what seems impossible, really is possible with the technique to achieve it.

To me it is a settled question that the timbre of a grand piano can be made to vary at a specific level of dynamic.  We can continue to discuss it, yet this will not alter the things I have experienced with my ears and outside of the various studies.  I have heard to much, seen too much, and experienced too much, to be swayed.


Mvh,
Michael

Offline 8_octaves

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #60 on: May 01, 2015, 08:34:31 PM
Rehi Michael_sayers,

even Hofmann and Horowitz have to accept the laws of physics. And they prescribe:

The hammer, if once "escaped", cannot be actively controlled. It makes its journey - from a certain point onwards - to the strings alone, free, and with no chance to influence it.

ALL chances to influence lie PRIOR to the point of escapement. HERE we all, and Hofmann, and Horowitz, can apply technique (which is directly connected to musicality) to produce what is nearest to our imagination and concept.

But when the hammer has gone past the point of escapement, then - aside from the pedals, which are there, and which are very important - there's no way to influence further things.

As the teacher I've quoted said: Play on a given piano a "C" , with a given intensity, and while it sounds, try to change the tone color: It isn't possible, Michael. Because of laws of physics.

Additionally consider the - in my opinion - very relevant and important words to the legato- / staccato - topic. And how we TREAT / how our TENDENCIES are in playing successive notes.

Therein lies the art. But not in an impossible mission. And impossible is, to change the tone color after the point of escapement.  :)

No chance. Sorry, Michael, this time.  :(  ;)

"Never be afraid to play before an artist.
The artist listens for that which is well done,
the person who knows nothing listens for the faults." (T. Carreño, quoting her 2nd teacher, Gottschalk.)

Offline michael_sayers

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #61 on: May 01, 2015, 09:30:49 PM
Rehi Michael_sayers,

even Hofmann and Horowitz have to accept the laws of physics. And they prescribe:

The hammer, if once "escaped", cannot be actively controlled. It makes its journey - from a certain point onwards - to the strings alone, free, and with no chance to influence it.

ALL chances to influence lie PRIOR to the point of escapement. HERE we all, and Hofmann, and Horowitz, can apply technique (which is directly connected to musicality) to produce what is nearest to our imagination and concept.

But when the hammer has gone past the point of escapement, then - aside from the pedals, which are there, and which are very important - there's no way to influence further things.

As the teacher I've quoted said: Play on a given piano a "C" , with a given intensity, and while it sounds, try to change the tone color: It isn't possible, Michael. Because of laws of physics.

Additionally consider the - in my opinion - very relevant and important words to the legato- / staccato - topic. And how we TREAT / how our TENDENCIES are in playing successive notes.

Therein lies the art. But not in an impossible mission. And impossible is, to change the tone color after the point of escapement.  :)

No chance. Sorry, Michael, this time.  :(  ;)



Hi 8_octaves,

The focus is not on any ability to act upon a hammer while it is in free flight to the strings, the focus is on the ability to act upon a hammer and hammer shank while these are being accelerated.

To do this with effective differentiation of timbre outcome needs dedication, practice and patience with this as a specific emphasis.

This is what enables control over tone quality with the pianists who can do it and especially with grand pianos that are not designed to minimize tonal variation.


Mvh,
Michael

Offline j_menz

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #62 on: May 02, 2015, 12:15:02 AM
The focus is not on any ability to act upon a hammer while it is in free flight to the strings, the focus is on the ability to act upon a hammer and hammer shank while these are being accelerated.

And what quality, velocity at escape aside, do you suggest one might affect?
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline 8_octaves

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #63 on: May 02, 2015, 06:41:10 AM
Rehi michael_sayers,

at the point of escapement, the hammer has a certain velocity / speed.

That speed depends on the force / speed with which we press the key. ( = speed of key descent ).

A person who is able to press down the keys in very many ( say: 100 ) nuances of speed / force, has advantages in the results that are able to be achieved by him in actual piano-pieces, and will let him / her perform his concepts / imaginations better than a person who only is able to apply e.g. 5 different kinds of speed / force, when "pressing" down a key.

Because, that determines the force with which the strings are struck by the head of the hammer.

Quote
[...] Now let's discuss tone intensity. I have asked European audiences, great and small, the simple question: "What determines lesser or greater intensity?"
I am not asking whether you use your arm, forearm, or elbow; don't think of the player, think of the key itself. I have seldom received the correct answer, and then usually from en engineer or physicist, but never from a pianist.

The answer: the SPEED of key descent; if it's slow, the sound is soft, if it's fast, the sound is loud.

I told this to one of my dear students last week, a brilliant pianist, and he objected,

Quote from: Student
What do you mean? We can play very fast and loud, or very fast and soft."

Well, he confused two different speeds, and this you must not do. I am not speaking about the speed of succession, as in a run or glissando; I am speaking about the descent of EACH INDIVIDUAL KEY.

To actually produce a tone, there are 3 possibilities. I - personally, and I'm not a piano technician / mechanic - think this has to do with the double-escapement-mechanism invented many years ago, and applied in many grands. It makes us able to play very fast repetitions by offering the possibility to "catch" a key which comes up at the half / 2/3 of its way ( as I pointed out in the Waldstein-thread), and then, saving time, leading it down again. So, in using pianos / grands which have this mechanism, there are 3 possibilities:

Quote from: Intelligent man
[...]In how many ways do you think a tone can be produced by moving the key dowm? Most people answer, "One".
Actually, there are three possibilities. The first and most common is to move the key from top to bottom, three eighths of an inch. The second is to move from the top to the point of escapement, about halfway down. And the last, from this point to the bottom. [Addition by me: Because of the above mentioned double-escapement-mechanism in many instruments.]

This is true on every grand piano. In any case, we shouldn't move the key too slowly, because if the hopper has not enough speed, the hammer slides from it, failing even to contact the string. Now you see that if you want to repeat a tone, you don't have to release the key entirely in order that the hammer be re-engaged. This is tremendously important to know when you are playing a trill, for instance.[...]

These words show, in my opinion, our chances ( up to this point ) very well. But an "escaped" hammer we cannot influence. Since we cannot control its further movement.

Remember the sniper's rifle from another thread. After the bullet has left the gun, there's no way to influence it until it reaches its aim.    

If something has "escaped", it means just that. We cannot control it, because we don't have it.

We can only give it - for its "proviant / rations", some parameters with it on its way, aside from the pedals, which are very important, and which of course are always to our disposal.

Very cordially, 8_octaves!!  
"Never be afraid to play before an artist.
The artist listens for that which is well done,
the person who knows nothing listens for the faults." (T. Carreño, quoting her 2nd teacher, Gottschalk.)

Offline michael_sayers

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #64 on: May 02, 2015, 07:15:30 AM
The issue under discussion is not how different pianists use different techniques to control the sound of the piano, it is what in that sound can actually be influenced by the pianist. Different pianists will use all sorts of different muscular motions; what we are discussing here is how the piano reacts to what they do.

Once you are holding the pedal down, it makes no difference at all how long the key stays depressed. Hold down the pedal and play a phrase: you have no control of the length of the notes, their rate of decay is determined by the instrument. The only thing you can control is the shape of the phrase: the dynamic relationships between each successive note. If you give a melody an expressive contour by judicious variations of intensity and timing, it will sound more "legato" than if you play each note with the same intensity, in strict time.

8_octaves goes into more detail on this particular subject in his last post above.

Some people like the sound of this piano, some people prefer the sound of that piano. That has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.

This is not standard practice, it's something that a few piano technicians like doing, without being clear about what they are actually achieving. They listen to the sound that the shank makes when dropped and give the shanks with the lowest sound to the lowest notes. Other things being equal, a shank that has a lower natural frequency will be more flexible than one with a higher one. In assigning the most flexible shanks to the lowest notes, all the technician has achieved is to make these notes slightly less predictable and slightly weaker.

I strongly suspect that the major manufacturers have better things to do with their time.

As already stated, the more flexible the hammer, the more unpredictable. We can do all sorts of things with the acceleration of the key, changing the way the hammer moves before it leaves the escapement, but once it leaves the escapement all that is left to it is this:

- its momentum, which can no longer be influenced by the pianist
- possible vibrations caused by flexing of the shank

The vibrations simply add an element of unpredictability as to exactly where the hammer strikes the key, and possibly in which horizontal direction the contact point moves during the strike. These effects are completely out of the pianist's control, but happily for the pianist, as long as the shank is sufficiently rigid the effects are so small that they cannot be heard (see for instance Askenfeld, Measuring the motion of the piano hammer during string contact.)

There are many theories of piano technique, yes, but we are not discussing their particular merits here. We are asking the question "is there a way to play a note twice at exactly the same volume, on the same piano, but with a difference in timbre?". This isn't a matter of taste, it's a case where an objective yes/no answer is possible.

Hi michael_c,

I am sorry that I just now read this post of yours which is quoted above!

It is common knowledge that pianists are to strive for beautiful affect in the tone, and the means to have this effect on the tone are well (though maybe not adequately enough) described.  I think other effects are fine too - Prokofiev can do with a bit of sarcastic banging, for instance . . . March music maybe needs some "hardness" of tone . . . sounds that would have been thought ugly by the golden age pianists are, in my opinion, quite okay.

If a pianist's detache effects make no audible difference in the tone when pedaled through, then there is room for improvement in the gestures of the motions involved - or, it may be it is the piano at which is to some degree at fault.  Grand pianos are different now even than when I was growing up . . . N.Y. Steinway D actions, though made in N.Y., feel more and more restrictive and increasingly similar to Renner actions, especially since the big move of the knuckle position closer to the hammers in 1984.

Drop testing and sorting of hammer shanks is standard practice in the industry.  It is an essential and important practice.

Hammers don't just flex, they move side to side, they twist . . . and, the strings don't just vibrate up and down, they move in all directions, and even have spiraling motions, et c.

A pianist like Vladimir Horowitz used all manner of technique to unconsciously control and take advantage of these variations.   There isn't a book anywhere that says to use a particular acceleration curve, and the strings will have more (or less) swirling motions.  But it is possible with a good set of ears and an a satisfactory grand piano to attune and develop one's technique along those lines.


Mvh,
Michael

Offline michael_sayers

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #65 on: May 02, 2015, 07:22:49 AM
Rehi michael_sayers,

at the point of escapement, the hammer has a certain velocity / speed.

. . .

If something has "escaped", it means just that. We cannot control it, because we don't have it.

Very cordially, 8_octaves!!  

Hi 8_octaves,

Where have I said that a hammer at the moment of escapement does not have velocity /speed, or that a pianist can control a hammer after it has escaped?  I said just the opposite, I said that a pianist can not control a hammer once it is in free flight to the strings.

I think maybe you mistakenly and unintentionally addressed your post to me when it was intended for another member.


Mvh,
Michael

Offline michael_sayers

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #66 on: May 02, 2015, 07:36:02 AM
And what quality, velocity at escape aside, do you suggest one might affect?

Hi j_menz,

Unfortunately I don't know precisely the terminology one would use to describe these other qualities.  Pianists who can do this do it unconsciously.  They don't, for instance, replay close up and tremendously slowed down videos of the hammers and hammer shanks from when they where playing, and of the strings' motions, and then make adjustments.

Part of the issue here is that studies have limited and specific budgets.

So . . . Horowitz isn't alive anymore . . . but get the right pianist, and borrow an appropriate N.Y. Steinway D, and some of this, I am sure, will be measurable.

It won't come cheap though.  Maybe Giovanni Bellucci, on a 1940s N.Y. D with the original action and plush N.Y. hammers, would be able to do it.  Then let "any" pianist play it at matched levels of dynamic to disclose measurement of the outcome of a lack of timbre control.  But his fee probably would be five figures, and he is too old to stay for a low price in a youth hostel.

There are other pianists who, I suspect, have this ability.

It is hard to really hear them properly though the way pianos are getting to be in the 21st century.


Mvh,
Michael

Offline j_menz

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #67 on: May 02, 2015, 07:53:22 AM
Unfortunately I don't know precisely the terminology one would use to describe these other qualities.  Pianists who can do this do it unconsciously.  

It is not a question, though, of what they might do, or think they do - what property other than velocity is possibly imparted? Even on a NY Steinway D?
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline michael_sayers

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #68 on: May 02, 2015, 07:58:50 AM
It is not a question, though, of what they might do, or think they do - what property other than velocity is possibly imparted? Even on a NY Steinway D?

Hi j_menz,

Horowitz, I think, talked a bit about his ability to control piano tone.

And there are things in the writings of Claude Debussy about the application of this he wants with his piano music, and with the specific techniques for how it is to be done.


Mvh,
Michael

Offline j_menz

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #69 on: May 02, 2015, 08:12:46 AM
Hi j_menz,

Horowitz, I think, talked a bit about his ability to control piano tone.

And there are things in the writings of Claude Debussy about the application of this he wants with his piano music, and with the specific techniques for how it is to be done.


Mvh,
Michael

Horowitz notoriously talked a lot of rubbish.  ;D

I've stated earlier in this thread how I believe it's done, and how it seems to be some mysterious art. It is, however, all just velocity.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline michael_sayers

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #70 on: May 02, 2015, 09:09:48 AM
Horowitz notoriously talked a lot of rubbish.  ;D

I've stated earlier in this thread how I believe it's done, and how it seems to be some mysterious art. It is, however, all just velocity.

Hi j_menz,

There is velocity, acceleration, motion, multiple planes and even topographies of motion, dynamics of motion . . . the particular materials and their properties as produced in their particular forms and configurations . . . it is far too complicated for the minimalistic pronouncements in some of the posts in this thread.


Mvh,
Michael

Offline michael_c

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #71 on: May 02, 2015, 09:35:15 AM
But Josef Hofmann from the 1930s, whose massive sound is just like turning up a volume knob on a stereo and without diminution in tone quality, is an exception to this.  He didn't do it by magic, but through his superior technique.

Listen here, and especially to the fortissimo playing:


A highly idiosyncratic and charismatic performance. Hoffmann notably makes very effective use of dynamic contrasts, bringing out certain melodies or single notes. We can clearly hear what an individual artist he was, but there is absolutely nothing in that recording to support the idea that he was actually affecting the timbre of the piano other than by very refined dynamic control.

Quote
To me it is a settled question that the timbre of a grand piano can be made to vary at a specific level of dynamic.  We can continue to discuss it, yet this will not alter the things I have experienced with my ears and outside of the various studies.  I have heard to much, seen too much, and experienced too much, to be swayed.

What did you experience with your own ears? Did you hear pianists demonstrating their ability to change the timbre of a single note, or did you hear pianists play music? I'm sure it was the latter. Listen to Hofmann, or Cortot, or Novaes playing Chopin's 4th ballade and each will sound different. You'll swear that these people are capable of influencing the timbre of a piano, but the knowledge of how a piano works tells us otherwise.

When you insist that these pianists are influencing the timbre and try to find plausible ways in which they could be doing this, you end up chasing chimeras. You continue bringing up the idea that they are somehow acting on the flexion of the hammer shank when it has been clearly demonstrated that this flexion can only introduce random variations in the strike point that are out of the pianist's control.

Instead of wasting my time with such chimeras, I prefer to ask myself these questions:

With the knowledge of how a piano works, what it can and what it cannot do, how is it that a great pianist can give the impression of a tender sound, or a rough sound, or a bright sound, or an orchestral sound, or any other sort of sound? How can the pianist trick our ears into thinking we hear a real legato, such as a violinist can produce, where one tone runs smoothly into the next in both crescendo and diminuendo? How, using a machine that throws hammers at strings, can they profoundly move us by playing a simple phrase?

They can do all these things, without some magic that would defy the laws of physics. Therein lies the fascination.

Offline 8_octaves

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #72 on: May 02, 2015, 10:07:43 AM
[...]

Unfortunately I don't know precisely the terminology one would use to describe these other qualities.  Pianists who can do this do it unconsciously.  [...]

There are other pianists who, I suspect, have this ability.

Mvh,
Michael

[...] it is far too complicated for the minimalistic pronouncements in some of the posts in this thread.

Mvh,
Michael

[...]Claude Debussy about the application of this he wants with his piano music, and with the specific techniques for how it is to be done.


Mvh,
Michael


@Michaeeeeeeellll  ;D ;D ;D   @ the underlined parts: Best man 2015 !!!  ;D ;D ;D

Nice to be with you on this place!!  ;) But, as far as the topic is relevant, I unfortunately must say this, to some of the underlined parts:


@ "do it unconsciously": That's dangerous, I think. To do things unconsciously / in trance may reduce control and concentration, too, and can lead to accidents. Think about the somnambules! Wandering at night on the rooftops of shopping-malls, skyscrapers or crypts, one upcoming storm can blow them off the rooftop. They only SEEM to be very secure. But every moment they are in danger.  :o

@ "this ability": If the ability to change tone color after escapement is meant, then this ability doesn't exist. But the ability to change tone-color exists for,e.g., violin-players. To have "this ability", one must stay, like them (mostly) , in continuous contact with the string, to influence its behaviour during the tone is played. Pianists who think and proclaim they can do it ( by e.g. a miraculous "touch", or "caressing" the keys after the hammer has long gone past the point of escapement, or making other unnecessary movements which don't contribute only to actual tone production) , are on a meander leading into the noxious, misty swamp of oblivion,  ;D ;D I would think.

@ "minimalistic pronouncements" : I must admit: It may be sometimes difficult to come to minimalistic pronouncements. But if they are efficient, and base on rules which cannot be avoided, they might be of "maximalistic" use.  ;)

@ Debussy "how it is to be done" : So, then, Debussy could influence the movement of the hammer after the point of escapement? And then, after a tone has started, he was able to influence its color during its sound ? I don't think so, unless he would be able to achieve that by sheer force of his will... ;D.

What he surely COULD do, was, to create wonderful effects while creating and playing SUCCESSIONS of notes. But of these successions, for each SINGLE note of them, AGAIN, the laws we already have spoken of are valid: The hammer cannot be controlled after having gone past a certain point.

Cordially, 8_octaves.



"Never be afraid to play before an artist.
The artist listens for that which is well done,
the person who knows nothing listens for the faults." (T. Carreño, quoting her 2nd teacher, Gottschalk.)

Offline michael_c

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #73 on: May 02, 2015, 10:13:05 AM
There is velocity, acceleration, motion, multiple planes and even topographies of motion, dynamics of motion . . . the particular materials and their properties as produced in their particular forms and configurations . . . it is far too complicated for the minimalistic pronouncements in some of the posts in this thread.

I'll take those things one at a time. The original question from j_menz asked what property apart from velocity could be imparted to the hammer.

velocity: agreed

acceleration: no, as soon as the hammer has left the escapement we cannot accelerate it. From this moment, until it hits the string, it is only subject to the weak acceleration force of gravity which is unchangeable.

motion: We have seen that there can be some oscillatory motion in the shank, but, as I will not tire of repeating, this motion can only introduce random variations in the strike point (see the detailed explanation from Bruce Clark above). It cannot be controlled by the pianist for any useful purpose.

multiple planes and even topographies of motion: yes those vibrations can even be in multiple planes. They are uncontrollable and undesirable: if the hammer is vibrating sideways, for instance, there is no way of telling whether it will be at the correct point when it hits the string, or to the left or the right of that point, introducing a random change in timbre. As for "topographies of motion", that's a nice phrase that sounds "scientific" but doesn't define any known physical property.

dynamics of motion: see "topographies of motion": this is not a definition of a physical property.

the particular materials and their properties as produced in their particular forms and configurations . The particular materials are fixed by the constructor of the piano. The pianist cannot change these materials.

In short, the only property that the pianist can reliably influence is the velocity of the hammer.





Offline j_menz

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #74 on: May 02, 2015, 10:32:01 AM
There is velocity, acceleration, motion, multiple planes and even topographies of motion, dynamics of motion . . . the particular materials and their properties as produced in their particular forms and configurations . . . it is far too complicated for the minimalistic pronouncements in some of the posts in this thread.

There is no acceleration past the point of release - only deceleration an that is outside a pianists control. The materials, their forms, configurations etc are also likewise fixed or -  to the extent they are not - not controllable.

That which can be controlled is velocity.

Nothing more.

What is complicated is the matters I have already alerted to.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline 8_octaves

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #75 on: May 02, 2015, 12:47:49 PM
Rehi michael_sayers  :)

Since I have spotted that you asked me, in another thread  :o , for FURTHER PROOF in this thread here  :o , that tone color cannot be changed / influenced after the point of escapement ), I'll answer, again.

1. ) Basis consists of physical laws. They needn't to be proven, because they exist and cannot be avoided.

2. ) Look, @michael_sayers: The teacher has anticipated the shortcomings of very good participants of his masterclass. So he, AGAIN, referred on the topic. But now, I think, a little "thank you" for that man would be nice!!  :) If he was still alive, he would be VERY glad about that, I think!

Quote
[...]Yet some of you don't believe, in spite of my scientific explanations, that we can't change the quality of a piano tone without changing its intensity, or that we can't influence a tone after it has been produced. Excuse me if I underestimate your knowledge. [  ;D ] I don't underestimate your talent, but experience has taught me how few pianists know about their instrument. [...]

All our piano destiny hangs on this downward movement of the key. It is essential to know everything about this three-eighths of an inch if we expect to master the instrument. There are actually three ways to produce a piano tone--through the "upper floor," or the "lower floor," as I have shown, or through both floors at once. The upper floor produces a very soft and light sound; you are familiar with its use in playing a glissando pp. This will not, of course, be suitable for playing a melody; it is a fairly unreliable tone and will not carry. Now, lower floor playing is very important in several cases. First, as I already mentioned, there is the trill. If you can always see the wood of the neighboring keys of those involved, it means you are not releasing them entirely, but going through a very short distance; hence, there is greater speed.

Then, there are fast repeated notes; here, too, it is better to catch the key before it is up. The lower floor is also a good thing for super legato playing. Of course, it's not quite the same thing; as soon we play a new key, we have to start from the top of it. But if one must repeat a note or return to it, I wouldn't release it entirely either. This makes it possible to play the SAME note legato without pedal. That's a FINESSE, but very important to know, since often it's better not to use much help from pedals.

Now there's the iron frame. It's good that it is strong, because it must sustain a tremendous tension. All the strings go through bridges connected to the sounding board, so all their vibrations are communicated to the sounding board and amplified by it.

The tone that you hear when I play a single note is really quite complex. It consists not only of the fundamental tone, but also of a number of partials, of which I have already spoken.
Acoustics is a very old science; in ancient Egypt and China they knew a great deal about it, but unfortunately much of the information has been lost. The first person whose works on acoustics have come down to us was the Greek philosopher Pythagoras.

It was he who discovered that if a whole string vibrates, then also half of it vibrates, then consecutively a third, a quarter, a fifth, and so on, each independently. [...]

The pitch of a tone varies inversely with the square root of the diameter; leaving this square root in peace, we can say, simply, the thicker the string the lower the tone.

Also, the thicker the string, the poorer the quality of the tone, since there are fewer partials. That is why a nine foot grand is so much better than a baby grand. This will not influence your playing, but it will influence your buying. Unfortunately, the size of pianos, speaking scientifically, is in direct proportion to the price.

As I have said, too many partials make a tone harsh. That is the reason why a loud tone is sometimes unpleasant--NOT because I have a bad touch. And of course, too few partials create a weak sound.

It is the partials which change the "color" of a tone; therefore, this "color" you influence simply by playing softer or louder. ( Partials are often called harmonics. Actually, harmonics are sympathetic vibrations of OTHER strings. ) [...]

Now to a very pleasant subject -- the pedals. They ARE wonderful, but at the same time a dangerous weapon, since they are often used to hide a multitude of sins. Now I speak of the damper pedal especially, this right foot pedal, which frees the strings from the dampers and allows them to continue vibrating, separately AND sympathetically. When I play this C without pedal I make only three strings vibrate; when I use pedal the whole piano vibrates. So you see the tremendous coloring possibilities of the pedal which exist ALONG with its help in legato.[...]

Softer or louder, Michael. And this depends solely on the speed of key descent. And thus, on the force with which the strings are struck.

I hope that was sufficient. What do you think, Michael?

Very cordially, 8_octaves!
"Never be afraid to play before an artist.
The artist listens for that which is well done,
the person who knows nothing listens for the faults." (T. Carreño, quoting her 2nd teacher, Gottschalk.)

Offline michael_sayers

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #76 on: May 02, 2015, 01:35:14 PM

@ Debussy "how it is to be done" : So, then, Debussy could influence the movement of the hammer after the point of escapement? And then, after a tone has started, he was able to influence its color during its sound ? I don't think so, unless he would be able to achieve that by sheer force of his will... ;D

Cordially, 8_octaves.

Hi 8_octaves,

Neither I, nor Debussy - nor anyone in history - has claimed to be able to exert influence on a hammer and its hammer shank after the point of escapement, and neither has anyone (including Debussy) claimed to be able to through sheer force of will alter the timbre of a sounding string.

Who is it that has said these things?

It isn't I, and as such I don't think your argument is with me. :)

Maybe you, michael_c and j_menz are just having a bit of fun with me here? ;D ;D ;D


Mvh,
Michael

Offline michael_sayers

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #77 on: May 02, 2015, 01:38:42 PM

acceleration: no, as soon as the hammer has left the escapement we cannot accelerate it. From this moment, until it hits the string, it is only subject to the weak acceleration force of gravity which is unchangeable.

Hi michael_c,

Here again (as was just posted to 8_octaves), who is it that has said one can accelerate a hammer after it has left the escapement?

I know of no one who has said such a thing.  Do you have a source for thinking otherwise, or are you all just messing around with me?

I suspect the latter! ;D


Mvh,
Michael

Offline michael_sayers

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #78 on: May 02, 2015, 01:42:43 PM
There is no acceleration past the point of release - only deceleration an that is outside a pianists control.

Hi j_menz,

Again (and for the fourth of fifth time in this thread), I'll state that everyone in the whole universe and throughout piano history agrees with this.

Maybe, somehow, we can move past this fact since we all acknowledge it and agree on it! . . . LOL


Mvh,
Michael

Offline 8_octaves

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #79 on: May 02, 2015, 02:31:59 PM

Maybe you, michael_c and j_menz are just having a bit of fun with me here? ;D ;D ;D

Mvh,
Michael

Hi Michael_sayers,

I don't think so. Because, even if the discussion here is reasonable, and sometimes funny, too, ( which I like very much, because it never got unfriendly!!) ,  it's like this:

What we here talk about, is one of the fundaments of reasonable piano playing, which has, by SOME and even very famous pianists and their teachers, not been understood, whereas the other half has understood it.

It refers, when thinking further, to EVERY unnecessary movement, taking away their justification - and with that, could be DANGEROUS for whole schools, which teach nonsense-moves for CENTURIES!!!

 And thus, that, what michael_c, j_menz and the teacher I quoted ( and myself, but I'm unimportant ) say, is, because of that, for many many "pianists" and their "teachers" a nightmare.

You yourself have been of the opinion, that there are "special techniques", which only "few pianists have access to". You mentioned Horowitz and Hofmann... : What these pianists have, is a greater number of dynamic values (soft-loud) while pressing keys down, than some other famous pianists. And even Horowitz and Hofmann cannot match others referring to these points, for example, Michelangeli.

You asked me for proof that hammers after the point of escapement cannot be influenced.

The proof is a ) laws of physics, b ) the research of the teacher I quoted, c ) reasonable thinking, and that not only from me, but from others here, too.

Esoteric reasons won't be sufficient to prove the "other" side. Here are hard facts necessary - and they have been given. But only from "our" side.

And because of that: Please, now, prove YOUR standpoint, @michael_sayers!  8) ;)

Cordially, 8_octaves!


 
"Never be afraid to play before an artist.
The artist listens for that which is well done,
the person who knows nothing listens for the faults." (T. Carreño, quoting her 2nd teacher, Gottschalk.)

Offline michael_c

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #80 on: May 02, 2015, 02:34:38 PM
Hi michael_c,

Here again (as was just posted to 8_octaves), who is it that has said one can accelerate a hammer after it has left the escapement?

I know of no one who has said such a thing.  Do you have a source for thinking otherwise, or are you all just messing around with me?

No, I was taking it directly from what you said in this post, which was in reply to j_menz's question about what properties could be imparted to the hammer:

There is velocity, acceleration, motion, multiple planes and even topographies of motion, dynamics of motion . . . the particular materials and their properties as produced in their particular forms and configurations . . . it is far too complicated for the minimalistic pronouncements in some of the posts in this thread.

It doesn't matter how you accelerate the hammer: once you've stopped accelerating it, all that is left is the velocity. It doesn't remember how it got there.


Offline michael_sayers

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #81 on: May 02, 2015, 02:58:33 PM
No, I was taking it directly from what you said in this post, which was in reply to j_menz's question about what properties could be imparted to the hammer:

It doesn't matter how you accelerate the hammer: once you've stopped accelerating it, all that is left is the velocity. It doesn't remember how it got there.

Hi michael_c,

In the quoted passage of yours truly, which I reproduce below, where does it say that acceleration continues after the escapement?

"There is velocity, acceleration, motion, multiple planes and even topographies of motion, dynamics of motion . . ."

I don't see it anywhere between the quotes.  ;) ;D


Mvh,
Michael

Offline michael_sayers

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #82 on: May 02, 2015, 03:01:20 PM
Hi Michael_sayers,

You asked me for proof that hammers after the point of escapement cannot be influenced.

The proof is a ) laws of physics, b ) the research of the teacher I quoted, c ) reasonable thinking, and that not only from me, but from others here, too.

Cordially, 8_octaves!

Hi 8_octaves,

I asked for no such thing.  Please reread my posts! ;D


Mvh,
Michael

Offline michael_c

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #83 on: May 02, 2015, 03:27:31 PM
Hi michael_c,

In the quoted passage of yours truly, which I reproduce below, where does it say that acceleration continues after the escapement?

"There is velocity, acceleration, motion, multiple planes and even topographies of motion, dynamics of motion . . ."

I don't see it anywhere between the quotes.  ;) ;D

It's you that are messing with us. What you just quoted was your direct response to j_menz's question: what properties can be imparted to the hammer. The only one of those properties that can be imparted to the hammer is velocity.


Offline michael_sayers

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #84 on: May 02, 2015, 03:35:55 PM
It's you that are messing with us. What you just quoted was your direct response to j_menz's question: what properties can be imparted to the hammer. The only one of those properties that can be imparted to the hammer is velocity.

Hi michael_c,

I am not messing with anyone at all, I misread your post.  Sorry about that.

Do you have a source for the claim:

"The only one of those properties that can be imparted to the hammer is velocity" . . . ?

I am off to take a two hour nap now to restore creative focus, but I'll be back. ;D


Mvh,
Michael

Offline michael_c

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #85 on: May 02, 2015, 04:03:34 PM
Hi michael_c,

I am not messing with anyone at all, I misread your post.  Sorry about that.

Do you have a source for the claim:

"The only one of those properties that can be imparted to the hammer is velocity" . . . ?

Yes, Newton's laws of motion.



Offline 8_octaves

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #86 on: May 02, 2015, 04:38:50 PM
Yes, Newton's laws of motion.


Hi michael_c,

nice to hear about him, here, because..with NEWTON one shouldn't argue.

Look:

Quote from: The teacher
[...]Therefore, to avoid wasting time, argue as much as you like with me, but don't argue with Newton.[...]

( He said that, because his own opinions were often accepted with trust and sympathy, whereas, when he brought in to his students firmly established mechanical and physical laws, he encountered absolute denial...)

Cordially, 8_octaves!

"Never be afraid to play before an artist.
The artist listens for that which is well done,
the person who knows nothing listens for the faults." (T. Carreño, quoting her 2nd teacher, Gottschalk.)

Offline michael_sayers

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #87 on: May 02, 2015, 04:43:52 PM
Yes, Newton's laws of motion.

Hi michael_c,

How very strange, because this is one of my sources as well!

Maybe you are working off of a different edition, or a different translation, or something? ;D


Mvh,
Michael

Offline michael_c

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #88 on: May 02, 2015, 05:19:15 PM
Hi michael_c,

How very strange, because this is one of my sources as well!

Maybe you are working off of a different edition, or a different translation, or something? ;D

The relevant law is F = MA. A body only accelerates when there is a force acting on it. It doesn't matter how you accelerate the hammer to a certain velocity: the force can be more over less time, or less over more time, or increasing or decreasing over time. Once there is no longer any force exerted upon the hammer, all that is left is the velocity.

Offline 8_octaves

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #89 on: May 02, 2015, 05:59:49 PM
The relevant law is F = MA. A body only accelerates when there is a force acting on it. It doesn't matter how you accelerate the hammer to a certain velocity: the force can be more over less time, or less over more time, or increasing or decreasing over time. Once there is no longer any force exerted upon the hammer, all that is left is the velocity.

Very right, michael_c. What is left, is the velocity, which decreases ( also by physical laws ), and on its way to the strings, the hammer cannot get additional force.

We cannot control that on a GRAND and not on a NORMAL PIANO. But on a clavichord, we can influence the tone color to a certain degree.

Please, @Michael_sayers, inform yourself about the clavichord.

Quote
Unlike in a piano action, the tangent does not rebound from the string; rather, it stays in contact with the string as long as the key is held, acting as both the nut and as the initiator of sound. The volume of the note can be changed by striking harder or softer, and the pitch can also be affected by varying the force of the tangent against the string (known as Bebung). When the key is released, the tangent loses contact with the string and the vibration of the string is silenced by strips of damping cloth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clavichord

Cordially, 8_octaves!

"Never be afraid to play before an artist.
The artist listens for that which is well done,
the person who knows nothing listens for the faults." (T. Carreño, quoting her 2nd teacher, Gottschalk.)

Offline michael_sayers

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #90 on: May 02, 2015, 07:56:37 PM
It doesn't matter how you accelerate the hammer to a certain velocity . . .

Hi michael_c,

Do you have a source for that information?  This is where we need to get away from citing Newton who did not write anything explicitly about grand pianos.


Mvh,
Michael

Offline michael_sayers

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #91 on: May 02, 2015, 07:58:17 PM
. . . and on its way to the strings, the hammer cannot get additional force.

Hi 8_octaves,

Everyone here has been in agreement on this throughout the discussion, as far as I am aware.


Mvh,
Michael

Offline goldentone

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #92 on: May 03, 2015, 12:55:31 AM
Very right, michael_c. What is left, is the velocity, which decreases ( also by physical laws ), and on its way to the strings, the hammer cannot get additional force.

Perhaps, 8_octaves, you would care to further comment on the relationship between the repeating force variable and forthcoming length of rest between each strike, and then overall duration of the succession. I anticipate you moving the boundary of theory to personal experience tantalizingly soon.

 :)
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come

Offline michael_c

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #93 on: May 03, 2015, 03:18:44 AM
Do you have a source for that information?  This is where we need to get away from citing Newton who did not write anything explicitly about grand pianos.

That information can be found in any standard textbook on classical mechanics. It doesn't matter how any object is accelerated up to a certain velocity: once the accelerating force is no longer there, the object simply continues with the same velocity. This is as true for a piano hammer as it is for a rock.

So it doesn't matter that Newton didn't write anything explicitly about grand pianos. A grand piano is still subject to the laws of mechanics.


Offline 8_octaves

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #94 on: May 03, 2015, 03:36:17 AM
Hi goldentone.

@posting #92:

I think we should differ here ( but I already mentioned it ).

While playing only a single note - while not using the pedals - we have the possibilities which are mentioned above. 3 ways to produce the tone, but NO WAY to influence the hammer after the point of escapement.

The "repeating force", which you mention here, presupposes, that we REPEAT something. In this case: A keystroke. On the same key that we have played the single note mentioned above. And, again, we have the possibilities of repetition already mentioned. Including, AGAIN, the shortcomings of not being able to control the hammer after the escapement.

If we play a note, and then, after the hammer has escaped, we CARESS the key, or, we make wide, unnecessary movements with our arms, and additionally make grimaces that even Lang Lang would be astonished, that a westerner can be so funny,  ;D ;D , then you will notice, @goldentone, what the reason, sense and wisdom here is:

The tone will stay completely unimpressed by these unnecessary movements.

That's here the topic, and nothing else.

Tone exists, but cannot be influenced by us unless via the speed of key descent. With this speed, we give the single tones OR single tones within a succession of tones the necessary parameters with it, so that, after the point of escapement, and when finally striking the strings ( both of which is OUTSIDE our control ) the result is nearest to our imagination and concept.

__________

Next, you spoke of "succession". We should have to treat the SINGLE NOTE playing ( "what no pianist does, and then goes away" ) slightly differently to when we play a succession of single notes. In a succession of notes of course we can play them e.g. legato, so that they / their sounds may overlap / mix for a short time, or use pedal (see e.g.: Horowitz's statements to it, in the biography of Plaskin ), but we'll have to be aware of the annotations the quoted teacher gave, referring to our TENDENCIES in playing legato / staccato.

To the playing of clusters / many keys simultaneously / etc.:

Here, too, is everything valid which has been said and quoted:

Imagine, on a "grand, in general", @Michael_sayers, we play ALL KEYS SIMULTANEOUSLY.

But, unfortunately, EVEN THEN we cannot control the tone color of the "result" , after all of the hammers have beome withdrawn of our zone of influence.

And SO, @goldentone, we must conclude that, what some schools won't like to hear:

ALL movements which aren't necessary to ACTUALLY give, as controlled as possible, prior to the point of escapement, the hammers the necessary parameters with them on their way, are no good.

That's: Wide body movements ( upper body ). Circular movements with the body. Leaning theatralically back . Bowing theatralically ONTO the keys. Raising the arms and hands over the heads. Pulling the fingers into the air. ( They can MUCH better rest ON the keys.). Rolling up fingers. ( With rolled up fingers nobody can GRASP, GRAB or TAKE things. For doing these things, an OPEN HAND is necessary, with flatter fingers, to do the MOST CONTROLLED MOVEMENT a human being has trained 100000000 times in his life before, and thus, so much useful for piano playing: GRASPING. And then at once open the hand again. ). Grimaces.
Lifting the hand high prior to reach right or left extreme of the keyboard. We needn't to lift the hands, we can move them to its destination quicker, if we nearly "slide" them as close to the keys as possible to the destination. Jumping.  

Only the most effective, quickest, smallest, minimum-energy-consuming movements, which give us the maximum of control and the best chances to provide a result as near as possible to our concept are worthy to be used in piano playing, I think. And I'm not alone with that opinion.

By the way: The teacher I quoted has some other "surprises" for traditional, but questionable schools "in petto".

For example, some of you here may find it astonishing, that he plays scales NEITHER with "thumbs under" ( because it's too slow: it's not necessary that the fingers "under" which the thumb "goes" are still there, and not already at their DESTINATION KEYS... ;D ) - NOR he uses "thumbs OVER", which is too slow, too... ;)

But I'll refer on that in another thread somewhen.

Cordially, 8_octaves, and many greetings!  :)



 
"Never be afraid to play before an artist.
The artist listens for that which is well done,
the person who knows nothing listens for the faults." (T. Carreño, quoting her 2nd teacher, Gottschalk.)

Offline michael_sayers

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #95 on: May 03, 2015, 06:23:33 AM
That information can be found in any standard textbook on classical mechanics. It doesn't matter how any object is accelerated up to a certain velocity: once the accelerating force is no longer there, the object simply continues with the same velocity. This is as true for a piano hammer as it is for a rock.

So it doesn't matter that Newton didn't write anything explicitly about grand pianos. A grand piano is still subject to the laws of mechanics.

Hi michael_c,

I've studied mechanics but not with a textbook that had a chapter on grand piano tone production.  What book title, edition, et c., are you referring to?


Mvh,
Michael

Offline michael_c

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #96 on: May 03, 2015, 06:38:32 AM
I've studied mechanics but not with a textbook that had a chapter on grand piano tone production.  What book title, edition, et c., are you referring to?

I'm referring to any standard mechanics textbook. Grand pianos, like all other objects, are subject to the basic laws of physics.

A body can only be accelerating when there is a force acting on it. Do you agree, or not?

Offline michael_sayers

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #97 on: May 03, 2015, 07:18:00 AM
A body can only be accelerating when there is a force acting on it. Do you agree, or not?

Hi michael_c,

I don't agree at all and this is because motion is relative.  Maybe there is a mechanical engineering or a philosophy forum that this thread can be moved to?


Mvh,
Michael

Offline j_menz

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #98 on: May 03, 2015, 07:39:02 AM
Hi michael_c,

I don't agree at all and this is because motion is relative.  Maybe there is a mechanical engineering or a philosophy forum that this thread can be moved to?


Mvh,
Michael

Rubbish. Have you ever played a piano in a different frame of reference to you? In any case, while velocity may be relative, acceleration is not.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline michael_c

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Re: Does 'tone' really exist?!
Reply #99 on: May 03, 2015, 08:33:26 AM
I don't agree at all and this is because motion is relative.  Maybe there is a mechanical engineering or a philosophy forum that this thread can be moved to?

In classical mechanics, velocity is measured relative to a particular inertial frame. Acceleration is an absolute quantity.

This is common knowledge to anyone who has studied physics, but if you want a reference you can see for instance in the New World Encyclopedia:

Quote
As a result of its invariance under the Galilean transformations, acceleration is an absolute quantity in classical mechanics.


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