replaying tied whole notes

[1piano4joe]

Hi all,

When whole notes are tied for several measures, the sound dies out.

Two pieces that come to mind are Bach's BWV 808 English Suite no. 3 in g minor "Musette" and Liszt's Consolation no. 3 in Db. There are probably, many other instances, where this occurs.

The score doesn't "speak to me" and I'm at a lost as to "what gives". So, is it correct to assume that the tied notes are replayed at some point?

If so, are there any rules/guidelines as to when, where, why or how to do this?

Thank you, Joe.

[iansinclair]

There are certain advantages to playing the organ...

The short answer to your question is that yes, it may be necessary to restrike the tied note at some point.  The trick is to find a place where the restrike is possible -- and make sure that it is not obvious.  This will take some experimentation on your part.

Rubinstein, by the way, was an absolute master at that.

[chopinlover01]

As Ian said, it is sometimes nessecary; however, playing the tied note loud enough to allow it to sustain longer is often a good or nessecary idea, provided it doesn't disrupt the current musical mood.

[1piano4joe]

Hi Ian,

There are certain advantages to playing the organ...

The short answer to your question is that yes, it may be necessary to restrike the tied note at some point.  The trick is to find a place where the restrike is possible -- and make sure that it is not obvious.  This will take some experimentation on your part.

Rubinstein, by the way, was an absolute master at that.

I was wondering, why did/do composers write like that? Was it because instruments in Bach's time were like the organ and a note could be sustained indefinitely? Did Liszt want the sound to continuously get softer and fade out?

Thank you, Joe.

[1piano4joe]

Hi chopinlover01,

As Ian said, it is sometimes nessecary; however, playing the tied note loud enough to allow it to sustain longer is often a good or nessecary idea, provided it doesn't disrupt the current musical mood.

What if I played the whole piece louder? Wouldn't that make the tied notes last longer and maybe in some cases eliminate the need to restrike?

Also, even if the sound didn't stop entirely (from starting at a louder dynamic), it may be too soft and the tied note may still need to be restruck. Is that a possibility?

Maybe in some cases, I'm supposed to play later measures quieter, so the tied note is still heard?

I noticed tempo can make a very big difference. Playing above tempo allows the tied notes to still be heard but some pieces would sound ridiculous I guess and playing below tempo I find particularly troublesome.

How should I "slow" practice such a piece?

Do I restrike tied notes every measure or every other? I find more restrikes a possibility when practicing/learning a piece (at a slow tempo) than would be necessary at performance tempo but maybe this is a bad idea?

Maybe I should just let the tied notes fade out completely when practicing and only restrike where I would at performance tempo?

I guess it's possible to practice much louder when learning and then bring the volume down as the tempo goes up and this would tend to minimize the restrikes to the performance number. Does anyone actually do this?

Thank you, Joe.

P.S. It just occurred to me that on my digital I could use "organ tone" to practice at slow tempo and the note wouldn't die out! Maybe this is a good way to practice? When I get it up to tempo I can than play it in "grand piano tone". Just a thought. Would this be so bad or a viable alternative?

[cbreemer]

I would rather re-strike such a note at a suitable place than fiddle with the dynamics to "keep it audible". You can do it quite subtly and I don't see a problem with it in some cases, like in said musette every 4 bars. Also, even if a string's sound has decayed, as long as it stays pressed the damper is up and the string will vibrate sympathetically and still produce some sound. This
probably works better in louder pieces, a certain volume is needed to make a string resonate).

Just don't worry about it too much, feel free to re-strike the note if you think it's important. I'm sure Bach and Liszt would not have minded if it helps the music along.
 

[michael_c]

By all means try the Bach with an organ sounds: that's one of the instruments Bach had at his disposal. In this case, no need to re-strike that note. Try it as well with a harpsichord: this time some re-striking will be necessary, since the harpsichord sound decays even faster than a piano sound. Note how the piece sounds fine on both instruments.

I'd probably re-strike the note at the beginning of each 4-bar phrase, but I'd always be prepared to adapt to the particular piano I'm playing.

The Liszt Consolation sounds just awful on an organ: it's totally pianistic. You can certainly re-strike the low bass note at certain points, but it may be less necessary than you think: it lingers on in the ears of the listeners.

If you listen to different pianists play it, you will hear different solutions: some re-strike, some don't. It doesn't seems to bother the listeners in either case.

Here's Barenboim:

[ Invalid YouTube link ]

[1piano4joe]

Hi all,

Bach's Little Prelude in C Major BWV 939 starts with 3 tied whole notes.

So, I'm thinking in this case to NOT restrike at all but rather to play that opening whole note octave loud enough to last.

Is that correct?

Thank you, Joe.

[michael_c]

Hi all,

Bach's Little Prelude in C Major BWV 939 starts with 3 tied whole notes.

So, I'm thinking in this case to NOT restrike at all but rather to play that opening whole note octave loud enough to last.

Is that correct?

Thank you, Joe.

There's no need to restrike here, nor to play the bass octave particularly loud: it will last long enough anyway.

The essential thing is to listen to the sounds you are making with your piano. Don't simply play a note loudly because you think it needs to last a long time: try playing the passage in different ways and listening to the result.

[1piano4joe]

Hi michael_c,

There's no need to restrike here, nor to play the bass octave particularly loud: it will last long enough anyway.

The essential thing is to listen to the sounds you are making with your piano. Don't simply play a note loudly because you think it needs to last a long time: try playing the passage in different ways and listening to the result.

Thank you for both of your posts. They are helpful and I am processing their implications in my mind. I did find a score with mf between the staffs and ff below the bass clef.

I listened to various performances on YouTube. Some played the opening, way too loud and of course the sound didn't die out but I thought it sounded unbalanced.

I much preferred the performance where the sound practically disappeared but didn't. It didn't start out "unbalanced". However, I did find myself asking, "Is the note still sounding"? and was it or wasn't it? After several listens I still wasn't sure and fell in love with that performance.

I never listened to the sound "so far in advance" so to speak. I usually play the RH melody louder than the LH accompaniment and vice versa (no problem at all) when the melody switches to the LH.

I follow the dynamics, accents, pulse and hairpins BUT I never had to think about what the sound level will be 3 or even 4 measures later! I know this is because I haven't come across this in the repertoire all that often. You are so right when you say to play the passage in different ways. Also, you get to "Know" your instrument.

I never thought about it but if one plays as softly as they can on their instrument and still make a sound, that sound will continue to get softer and softer. The instrument can't be played that softly but the sound can continue and eventually fade out when the string stops vibrating. So, I guess this means that there are dynamics below what the performer can physically execute. (And probably above for that matter)

I am going to practice the LH alone and just listen to the sound get softer over time. I've never practiced this but I think it's important. Practice has always involved me being physically able to execute something, getting the tempo up or coordination issues. This is LISTENING practice! How could I know so far in advance what the sound will be several measures later if I don't practice listening?

I'm curious about something. If you play an octave in the LH and hold it, would the longer, thicker string producing the lower note last longer? Or possibly not fade out as quickly? Isn't this why some keys have 2 strings in unison and others 3 strings? There isn't much sound produced by a shorter, thinner string. Isn't that right? (Is it Bluthner that has a 4th string that is not struck by the hammer but vibrates sympathetically?)  

Lastly, would the number of tied notes make any difference? I mean would a 3 note chord being tied for several measures versus a single note tied for several measures make a difference? If 3 strings are louder than they would have to be played softer but then maybe they don't last as long? Maybe composers consider this?

Thank you, Joe.

[8_octaves]

(Is it Bluthner that has a 4th string that is not struck by the hammer but vibrates sympathetically?)  

Yes, it's called aliquot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliquot_stringing

cordially, 8_oct