To study piano, which one is the best: hearing or seeing memory?

[sebastien]

Hi ! I want to know what’s your opinion on this subject : Is it easier to learn piano (or any kind of music for that matter)  when you it’s easier for you to learn by hearing or by seeing? (in French it’s Visuel and auditif…)  I don’t know if these are actual words you can use in English: Visual and Auditive…I myself am an “auditive” person (rememberl best when I heard it) Like I said in my fist post I’ve played piano at my church for the last 10 years or so (play by ear only) and could not read music until about a year ago (not very well, I really want to improve). I have met quite a few people who can read music, but if they don’t have music sheets in front of them, they can’t do nothing. They told me I was lucky to do what I could do, and even my piano teacher told me that (I told them they were too, to be able to read music so easily) I guess they are “visual” persons. So my question is, which kind of  people (hearing or seeing) has the advantage when it comes to the real study of piano (like I’ve started, with a teacher and all…) Will a visual person have more skills when it comes to sight reading, will the “auditive” person rely too much on their ear while learning and in the long run will it be a disadvantage? For the memory, people don’t all learn the same way. Some who have photographic memory can remember quite easily just by seeing the thing (music sheet for instance) just a little, while I could stare at it as long as you like, but it’s so difficult for me to memorize things I see. SO what are your thoughts; “Hearing or Seeing”? Which one’s the best? I always wondered about this
Thanks,
Sebastien

[Brian Healey]

I think you ideally want to have a balance of the two. As to which one is better, it depends on your situation and the type of music you want to play. There have been outstanding jazz pianists who couldn't read a note of music (Erroll Garner comes to mind), and since jazz is a mostly ear-guided medium anyway, it can work. That is not to say that there is no reading involved in jazz. There most certainly is, but a good ear can take you further. A good ear is important in classical playing as well, but I think strong reading skills will take you further in that realm.

[anda]

also, motric memory is very important. ideally, all three (auditive, visual and motric) should be excellent. and, based on my personal experience, the visual memory is the least important, and it is better to have a good auditive memoy than a good motric memory (this way, you don't learn the work mechanically)

[quasimodo]

I'm a very poor reader of music as well, and I regret it. For sure if you want to have a large repertoire, you must read very well. I think some complex pieces like the Chopin's ballades I'm listening right now are almost impossible to play if you don't read with ease.

Now, I'm a little bit bothered to see some genuine virtuosi that play with scores in recital. In my opinion, at professional level, a musician should be able to perfectly memorize what he intends to play.

[piano88]

Well, the most important memory a pianist needs is muscle memory. If your fingers don't know what to do then you're stuck! In a concert, you can't be searching visual memory for the notes. Hearing memory is only good for quick improvisers.
It takes 180 repetitions for a movement to become natural to the muscles.
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[anda]

Well, the most important memory a pianist needs is muscle memory. If your fingers don't know what to do then you're stuck!

auditive memory is more important - the sound is formed in your inner ear before is played.
there is no such thing as "muscle memory". the memory you mean is the motric one, and it's always the brain to remember trajectories, landing points, and so on.

In a concert, you can't be searching visual memory for the notes.

some do! i have some friends, also pianists or piano-students, who see in their mind the score while they play. they can always tell you where, on which page and where on the page is this or that passage.
but, apart from these rare cases, the visual memory is important because the eyes guide the hand.

Hearing memory is only good for quick improvisers.

hearing memory is very very very important to any instrument player! if you could never remember anything sound-related that you've practiced the day before, then you will start over every day! without a fairly decent hearing memory, you will never have a complete technique! and then, what good will it do you that you can play fast scales?

It takes 180 repetitions for a movement to become natural to the muscles.

it takes 180 thousands repetitions for some kind of movements and it takes 1 try for others. all depends on how natural is this movement for you.

[pianiststrongbad]

I remember reading somewhere that Artur Rubinstein have a photographic memory.  Dunno if it was true or not.  I agree with those who said the most important is a combination of all three (visual, aural, and motric).   

[chopin2256]

the most important memory a pianist needs is muscle memory.  If your fingers don't know what to do then you're stuck!

I would disagree with this.  Never remember a piece by the movements only, or you will black out.  These movements come naturally once the pianist practices the right way.  The reason someone will forget a piece, or blackout, is simply because they didn't practice the piece correctly and didn't have a musical understanding of the piece.  I used to have that problem when I was younger, becuase when I was younger, I didn't practice correctly.  I figured that since I remembered what the piece sounded like, I would be able to play it correctly.  Nope I was wrong.  I had to go over very well known pieces, to repractice them, so I could remember them without blacking out, even if its for a second.  And all of that comes with concept...nothing visual, nothing auditive, nothing motric.  You can have the best memory, and still blackout if you do not have the concepts right.

In my personal opinion, since it works for me, I will say that the importance to be able to read and understand a piece (as opposed to memorizing, you will memorize automatically if you understand) is the most important thing a pianist can acquire. 

To try and back up my claims:

If you can't read music, I doubt most people can play difficult piano pieces, for example, Chopin, Rachmaninoff concertos, etc.  Someone said auditive skills are usually only good for improvision.  I hate improvision, as I like set music, however I improvise ALL the time in order to come up with set music (since I am a piano composer)

You can have a great memory, but you may not undertand the pieces, so you will not remeber them, or you will black out, etc!  This has nothing to do with how auditive, motric, or visual you are.

However if you have a poor memory in general, but you can understand music, you will train your brain to memorize music naturally, only if! you can understand the piece.  This is what happened to me.  I had a poor memory in music, no motric, and no auditive skills whatsoever.  However I had the concept right.  I knew the math.  I just did not have enough practice so it didn't come quick and natural to me unless I practiced the math.  Therefore, with enough practice, since I understood the math, I was able to memorize, remember, and hear the music in my head.

Anyway, thats my opinion, I think the concept, the math, the understanding of a musical piece is the most important factor here.  Although it is possible to remember a piece without understanding it, it will easily be forgotten the next week or so.

[anda]

You can have a great memory, but you may not undertand the pieces, so you will not remeber them, or you will black out, etc!  This has nothing to do with how auditive, motric, or visual you are.

i agree with everything you said, except for this.
and the reason i disagree is that i have seen idiots (i'm really sorry to say that, but that's the word) memorizing easily works they couldn't possibly understand. of course they will never play the work right, but also they are the least probable to black out on stage (exactly because they are idiots with good memory - they know the notes, they know what they've rehearsed and they don't care about anything else)! unfortunatelly, i know i am right statistically.

[chopin2256]

i agree with everything you said, except for this.
and the reason i disagree is that i have seen idiots (i'm really sorry to say that, but that's the word) memorizing easily works they couldn't possibly understand. of course they will never play the work right, but also they are the least probable to black out on stage (exactly because they are idiots with good memory - they know the notes, they know what they've rehearsed and they don't care about anything else)! unfortunatelly, i know i am right statistically.

Yeah thats a pretty bad way to learn a piece.  However, these pianists that remember just the notes, will they attain the piece?   

Maybe, but nevertheless, these pianists are still "mechanical" in their style, from what you said.  I assume that Sebastien wants to know our viewpoints of this issue, while maintaining a natural way to play.

For me, if I practiced the way you described some pianists do, I wouldn't remember the piece, lets say months later.  Its equivalent to learning how to do a math problem but not understanding the concept.  You forget how to do it later on.  Also you can't compare to someone who does understand how to do the problem.  It will be more mechanical for the memorizer, but of course, natural for the real mathematician.

[piano88]

You all raise good points, but I still believe that if the fingers know what they are doing, then it will come (and FYI there is muscle memory - you may call it a fancy name - but its the same thing - dancers especially will use this term). When I'm playing a recital I don't want scores flashing in my head. I want to listen to the sounds i'm making so I trust this memory more. Thats why non-memorised performances USUALLY suffer in terms of quality.
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[anda]

You all raise good points, but I still believe that if the fingers know what they are doing, then it will come (and FYI there is muscle memory - you may call it a fancy name - but its the same thing - dancers especially will use this term). When I'm playing a recital I don't want scores flashing in my head. I want to listen to the sounds i'm making so I trust this memory more. Thats why non-memorised performances USUALLY suffer in terms of quality.
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just one question: how long have you been playing piano, and aproximately how many times hove you been on stage and how many times have your students (students you helped prepare) been on stage? i'm sorry to ask, but i suspect it could be relevant.

[piano88]

just one question: how long have you been playing piano, and aproximately how many times hove you been on stage and how many times have your students (students you helped prepare) been on stage? i'm sorry to ask, but i suspect it could be relevant.

Well, I've been playing since age 3, I'm now 20, studying at Music College. I play regularly in public in London, at home in Manchester and I've also had successful tours in the USA, Japan and Russia, so my performance experience is quite extensive. I'm only saying here what works best for me......some pianists will rely on different ways of remembering a work - I've met people, for instance who practice in the dark (may sound crazy) so that all they can do is listen to the sounds they're making....we're all different!!!!!!
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[chopin_girl]

I'd have to say both.
They make a perfect match when they're together.
It's just like with memorizing a piece feg.
You see it in front of you but if you make a mistake it's the non-visual part that will help you remember and then it's all about the music.
So yes-both.

[Sketchee]

I would say that the "best" way to memorize and study piano is to rely on as many different types of memory as possible.  Not all will be easy or possible for you with every single point in a piece.  When one way of looking at a section fails or you find memory slips later on, you can always try one of the other methods and reexamine that portion from another perspective.  If you have as many different perspectives  on your music, you'll can then decide which one is best.

If you try to provide a blanket one stop solution to any part of piano study, eventually you'll find a point where your single solution just doesn't work.  Too foten when we find something to seem "impossible", it's just that we've limited our options.  Instead, I prefer against deciding a "best" solution.  This applies to a lot of things in piano.

[anda]

Well, I've been playing since age 3, I'm now 20, studying at Music College. I play regularly in public in London, at home in Manchester and I've also had successful tours in the USA, Japan and Russia, so my performance experience is quite extensive. I'm only saying here what works best for me......some pianists will rely on different ways of remembering a work - I've met people, for instance who practice in the dark (may sound crazy) so that all they can do is listen to the sounds they're making....we're all different!!!!!!
AD

great! but how can you do all this relying mostly on motric memory (call it whatever you want)?

i agree with everyone who said the ideal memory is a combination of aural-motric-visual memory. but in this order (imo)

oh, and it doesn't sound crazy - i'm one of those and it's not just "so that all i can do is listen", it's mostly cause it's more relaxing and cause it helps developing the auditive and the motric memory (even though my visual memory isn't much)

[sebastien]

Thanks everybody for your replies! It's great to have advices from experiences concert pianists and teachers.

Chopin2256, When you say you analyse a music piece, to understand it the best you can and to never forget it anymore, How is your way of doing this? Is there some sort of procedure. What questions do you ask yourself in the analysing process? You also talk about math applied to music...can you develop your thoughts. Maybe it's all clear to you, but since I'm new to piano lessons, I'll take all the help I can get to improve
Anybody feel free to add whatever you have to say.
Thanks