Article: TSO Dumps Upcoming Soloist Valentina Lisitsa Over Political Views

[quantum]

Just caught wind of this. 

https://www.musicaltoronto.org/2015/04/06/breaking-tso-bans-upcoming-soloist-valentina-lisitsa-over-political-views/

[j_menz]

Can the TSO really afford to be picky?

And.... do they play Wagner?

[quantum]

And.... do they play Wagner?

200th birthday of Wagner
https://www.cashboxcanada.ca/3975/tso-season-finale-200th-birthday-party-wagner-and-verdi-luminato

Wagner in current season:
https://www.tso.ca/en-ca/concerts-and-tickets/2014-2015-Season/EventDetails/Beethoven-Symphony-7.aspx

[ahinton]

Can the TSO really afford to be picky?

Can Ms Lisitsa afford to be so outspoken on such a subject in opposition to the government of her own country and expect that her every word on it be accepted without question?

Best,

Alistair

[Petter]

What did she say exactly? Article doesn't say. I guess she's pro russian?

[visitor]

or pehaps calculated publicity ploy. obviously her playing isn't buzz worthy/won't get generate the chatter to the extent she wants/needs, so perhaps her pr people are 'in favor of this' as now there's noise around here that wouldn't be there (and this is better publicity than a bad review had the tso show gone on as planned? )

[diomedes]

What did she say exactly? Article doesn't say. I guess she's pro russian?

I'm curious too. Nothing better than twitter happy people who just can't stop.

or perhaps calculated publicity ploy. obviously her playing isn't buzz worthy/won't get generate the chatter to the extent she wants/needs, so perhaps her pr people are 'in favor of this' as now there's noise around here that wouldn't be there (and this is better publicity than a bad review had the tso show gone on as planned? Roll Eyes )

I wouldn't have known of her playing here if it wasn't for this. I doubt i'd have gone, since i have never developed any particular admiration for her in general. Think i'd be more inclined to hear Goodyear play.

[stoat_king]

or pehaps calculated publicity ploy

Cynical!

[8_octaves]

When one, like for example Valentina Lisitsa, is a celebrity, it seems to become alluring for them to pick other topics out as central theme, too, and make statements in front of the wide public publicity of the world (but not in every case it's provided, that the utterances are highly qualified, then.)
__

Btw.: What makes me anxious, would be the next step, if music was used as instrument to manipulate, or to motivate...even for bad things, like: war...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDmDBlz1zYc

But that doesn't happen in our nice, flowery, romantic blossoming world too often, does it?

Cordially, 8_oct!

[thalbergmad]

They were probably looking for a reason to ditch her as she is crap.

Thal

[Petter]

[quote author=8_octaves link=topic=57870.msg623172#msg623172 date=1428426328

Btw.: What makes me anxious, would be the next step, if music was used as instrument to manipulate, or to motivate...even for bad things, like: war...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDmDBlz1zYc


[/quote]

To his credit he do seems to be in a hurry to get home...

[8_octaves]

To his credit he do seems to be in a hurry to get home...

Yes. Btw.: The footage can be found in the long and interesting documentation "Art of piano: Great pianists of the 20th century", which only sometimes (if it isn't blocked or such kind of crap) appears relevantly playable in FULL on YT. (But I have it on VHS-tape in full, and the 3 audio-cds, too, which I got as a present years ago.)

He seems to be in a hurry to get home...: But when I think of the combat pilots, many many of them never would have got home, again. Instead, they had become victims of the FLAK... .

And I subjectively make no differences of WHOM being a victim of war (countries, aims, etc.). Music, exploited as instrument...and music taking part in political "hot" discussions...hmm...  

Cordially, 8_octaves!

[themeandvariation]

It is precisely her point of view that isn't getting any air time in the west.  It is the position not covered in the media…  This isn't so simple as to then assume that she is pro Russian..  It certainly appears that there is a strong neo nazi contingent.  Learn a little bit of this history here:https://rt.com/news/219783-nazi-parade-kiev-bandera/
Many artist have been 'political'..  L. Bernstein, Picasso, Messiaen wrote  "Quartet for the end of time" while in a concentration camp, …..

[quantum]

For those on Twitter and Facebook, you may want to read up on the possible source of this controversy.  From what I understand, the TSO has not singled out any particular tweet or post which caused this. 

An editorial on the circumstances:
https://slippedisc.com/2015/04/why-orchestra-is-totally-wrong-to-sack-an-artist-with-political-views/

[outin]

Btw.: What makes me anxious, would be the next step, if music was used as instrument to manipulate, or to motivate...even for bad things, like: war...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDmDBlz1zYc

OTOH If I was going to die soon, I'd certainly appreciate the possibility to hear someone like Gilels to play live first!

[8_octaves]

OTOH If I was going to die soon, I'd certainly appreciate the possibility to hear someone like Gilels to play live first!

Yes. Chopin had listened to some piano-music, too, when he was dying, and even a nice Ukrainian comtessa,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delfina_Potocka

sang some songs or played piano in the room where Chopin was dying, if I remember correctly. He liked that, because it's said he had liked the Ukrainian comtessa very much, too.

But Chopin was, as we must confess, not a combat pilot, and wasn't supposed to act under orders, to speed up a premature death, I think.

Music, on the other hand, can be helpful in very difficult situations, and may be a friendly companion if one has long time been ill and then is dying. But exploiting Music for political purposes isn't a good idea.-

Meanwhile, I read a bit through Valentina's twitter, which is here:

https://twitter.com/ValLisitsa

But I find it very difficult to make out which opinions people stand for, there, because I think for such a complex situation the "format" of these "twitters" is not too fitting, because : the shorter postings are, the more chances to misunderstand them themselves are given, I think. And the more chances to evoke new "hatred" of opponents could occur.

But nowadays, we seemingly have to cope with "short opinions of 10000000 people", referring to difficult topics.  

Cordially, 8_octaves!

[stevensk]

OTOH If I was going to die soon, I'd certainly appreciate the possibility to hear someone like Gilels to play live first!

-You mean that the death is something to pray for if you are forced to listen to Gilels?

[stevensk]

-Why dont OTOH  interrogated their musicians one by one about their political opinions? There could be more musicians whith inappropriate opinions!

[ahinton]

or pehaps calculated publicity ploy.

If that was what she's intended, her pedalling technique (such as it is) will inevitably suffer as a consequence, since in doing this she's well and truly shot herself in the foot...

Best,

Alistair

[stevensk]

or pehaps calculated publicity ploy.

-No, cant be that. She is not from the U.S   

[ahinton]

They were probably looking for a reason to ditch her as she is crap.

But they couldn't have made that particular "reason" up, could they? (other than as a barefaced lie for which she'd have had every reason to sue).

I don't think that she's "crap", actually; she's just an ordinary and largely unengaging pianist who is disproportionately overrated and over-exposed.

Best,

Alistair

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Having had a look at her Twitter feed, she's very politicised, isn't she? I'm not going to comment on the Ukraine situation; I don't know enough to and I doubt our media's reporting is particularly neutral, nor that of Russia Today (for example). I assume she's offended someone in a position of power or authority, and her comments are such that she's going to sooner or later. Still, Liszt offended the Tsar, and Beethoven ended up not very complimentary about Napoleon, so musicians making political statements is nothing new. I think it's wrong to cancel her for perceived offence caused, the TSO should have the balls to state what it is that's offensive (I don't think they had as of when I looked when I first heard about this), then people can make some judgement as to the merits or otherwise of their action.

[ahinton]

I think it's wrong to cancel her for perceived offence caused, the TSO should have the balls to state what it is that's offensive (I don't think they had as of when I looked when I first heard about this), then people can make some judgement as to the merits or otherwise of their action.

I agree that this would not be a bad idea at all in the circumstances.

Best,

Alistair

[outin]

-You mean that the death is something to pray for if you are forced to listen to Gilels?

Only if he insisted on playing the complete works of Mozart 

[iansinclair]

The only comment I might add -- other than -sigh- -- is to remind folks that censorship of artists because of their political views is, unfortunately, a never ending problem, and a very old one.  It shouldn't happen -- it is only very very rarely that one's artistry is really affected by one's politics (there are exceptions; Picasso was one) -- but governments and political entities don't see it that way.

Some societies are more draconian than others; the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany had particularly effective means of shutting up artists with whom they disagreed, for instance.  Others are more subtle, perhaps (though I might argue that they are no less effective).  None can claim to be free of the problem.

It might be amusing to compile a list of major musicians and composers who have been censored for their politics.  It might be easier to compile a list of those who haven't...

[8_octaves]

There are sometimes smaller incidents, too, which appear in the smaller areas of smaller magazines or bigger newspapers.

I remember from a discussion this one: Here

https://www.mopo.de/news/muenchen--russischer-pianist-in-handschellen,5066732,6405090.html

it says: (I try to translate approximately, because it's in German):

Munich: Russian Pianist in Handcuffs
Acclaimed Russian pianist Boris Berezovsky blames the German BGS in Munich for having mistreated him. This was what his concert-agency notified on Saturday. According to this, Berezovsky had been held back during passport control at Munich Airport on Thursday, because he hadn't got a valid visa. The musician had declared to have been mistreated by six BGS-officers. In handcuffs he had been taken into custody to secure deportation. The BGS in Munich confirmed on Saturday, that the pianist had been rejected, because he hadn't got a valid visa. The other accusations completely lacked background, they pointed out.

____________

Then, this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sviatoslav_Richter#Tour_in_the_West

I quote:

Richter disliked performing in the United States and the high expectations of American audiences.[citation needed] Following a 1970 incident at Alice Tully Hall in New York City, when Richter's performance alongside David Oistrakh was disrupted by anti-Soviet protests, Richter vowed never to return. Rumors of a planned return to Carnegie Hall surfaced in the last years of Richter's life, although it is not clear if there was any truth behind them.

____________

And this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krystian_Zimerman

On April 26, 2009, Zimerman vowed to his audience at Los Angeles's Walt Disney Concert Hall that, in protest of America's placement of a missile defense shield in Poland, this would be his final appearance in the United States.[2][4] He had made a similar comment in 2006, stating he would not return until George W. Bush was out of office.[5] Part of his disenchantment with the USA may be that with the stepped up militarization and security at US airports, it has become increasingly difficult to bring his piano into the country. In incidents in 2001 and 2006, one of his Steinway pianos was completely destroyed and another one damaged by security staff at New York's JFK airport.

_________

Other examples of politically influenced pianists who made specific decisions are, e.g.: Petri, or Artur Rubinstein, both of whom had somewhen decided not to play in Germany again.

Hm. All that makes me sad. 

I think all in all: Music or musicians should neither be the aim of political hatred, nor be itself or themselves be used by themselves(!) as a "weapon" for revenge.-

Cordially, 8_octaves!

[stevensk]

"I think all in all: Music or musicians should neither be the aim of political hatred, nor be itself or themselves be used by themselves(!) as a "weapon" for revenge."

-Well, I think its up to them. Sometimes its even very good and morally necessary., A modern democratic society can (or should) put up whith that

[8_octaves]

[...]Sometimes its even very good and morally necessary.[...]

Yes, maybe in specific cases. But one or two musicians cannot be the moralizers for countries of 80 or more millions of people.

But in special cases, of course, if a society spots elements which are really dangerous, then the society itself will act, because it's impossible for e.g. small undermining groups to work unnoticed by the whole population. And the society will act like this:

"No ticket!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHSPf6x1Fdo

 

Whereas a normal pianist from abroad should never be mistreated. But the "ghost" of "PR", as touched by some aforeposters already, always floats above it all... .

Cordially, 8_octaves!

[8_octaves]

But as far as "PR" => public relations is concerned, there are of course differences in the "weight", the nimbus, or reputation a "musician-politician" has, and the notification of incidents connected to them in public.

Nigel Kennedy pointed it out in his autobiography:

I quote freely:

"If I, as a known violin player, do strange or "unvonventional", "unorthodox" things in public, e.g. in my freetime, which are of interest, they will be spotted at once and appear in the magazines and newspapers. But if a drunken second hornist of a mediocre orchestra runs Amok in a bar, gets into a brawl, and then destroys the furniture, it will be uninteresting and will stay unnoticed."

Cordially, 8_oct.

[Petter]

There's a fun book I can recommend that deals a bit with this sort of thing "The rest is noise" by Alex Ross. It deals with Strauss and nazi german and Shostakovich et al and Stalin. Highly recommended.

[ahinton]

Given what we do and don't know about all of this, it would seem more or less equally inappropriate for the ubiquitous VL to spout forth her political views so publicly (especially given their widespread unpopularity and inflammatory nature) as it is for TSO to cancel her concerto appearance/s; not much wisdom or advantages to be gained on either side there, methinks...

Best,

Alistair

[johnlewisgrant]

The dust hasn't settled in Toronto, but the verdict is already in: public opinion is completely lined up against the TSO's decision.

Our Ukrainian community, the largest outside Russia and Ukraine, is the exception: they see it as a victory against hate speech.

I don't care for her playing, or for her "style" of tweeting, but she's here to play the piano.  So I just wouldn't make a deal out of it.... at all.

If folks want to picket at the concert, that's fine with me.  I can't say I'd be unsympathetic.  

But I sure wouldn't "fire" her.  

She won big this battle big-time, as far as I can tell.  Lots and lots of people just saying, at worst, "I don't care about her hate speech, let the lady play"; and at best, "I hate her tweets,  but that's no reason to stop her from playing."

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Interesting article: https://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivecadence/2015/04/09/398571112/twitter-outrage-takes-toronto-canceling-two-pianists

[8_octaves]

I just looked at Valentina's Twitter, Nedo Ukrainka, again, https://twitter.com/ValLisitsa , to inform myself about if there are any news.

What I read, one can only dislike: An Ukrainian journalist was killed, who was against corruption.

Is now Valentina Lisitsa in danger, too?

In my brain, I see armed, masked, fighters climbing into her house, ... 

Cordially, 8_octaves!

[thalbergmad]

In my brain, I see armed, masked, fighters climbing into her house, ... 

In my brain, I can see masked fighters climbing out of her house as they can't stand her playing.

Thal

[8_octaves]

In my brain, I can see masked fighters climbing out of her house as they can't stand her playing.

Thal

LOOL 

greetings, 8_oct!!

[dcstudio]

whatever you think of her playing...  her political views should not stop her from performing.  She's a pianist ...not a public servant. PR-wise it's worked out rather well for her though--as it should.  I would say she will never be "fired" again and she will have a whole new group of fans after this bit is over.

Go Valentina...   

[8_octaves]

In my brain, I can see masked fighters climbing out of her house as they can't stand her playing.

Thal

This posting, I must confess, Thal, evoked at once a little dialog in my brain!!  

Having us all now read and heard about sad or hard circumstances and difficulties, the "black" humour shouldn't come too short, I think, for inbetween!

A dialog! Protagonists: Commander, Delta, Echo, Bravo, Target.

All (first four) are whispering!

Commander: "Shh! I spot structures in my night vision gear! Bassoons ready!"
Delta: "Yes, sir! ...must be kinda drainage-cover!"
Echo:"Yes, sir!"
Bravo:"Yes, sir!"
Commander: "...yes, Delta! Must lead to the bathroom!..but..what's that? In my angle-watcher I spot laser-mirrors, and red laser-lights! Bravo, disarm'em!"
Bravo: "must I? ..YES SIR!"
( Disarming them, via bypassing / redirecting the rays to own mirrors, to give room.)
Echo: "I'll lift it!"
The others: "mckay!!"
( now they are in the bathroom )...

Commander: "Hold your bassoons ready! Mission objective is to overpower the target as quickly as possible! There's a door! Echo, open it! Me and the others will wait!"
Echo:"Done!...Ill go and...STOP ALL! TRIPWIRES!! Consisting of... scores featuring dissonant and disharmonic pieces! What now?"
Commander: "Dangerous! I've got a special pincer for them, made by Creole, Austrian, Polish and Hungarian virtuoso craftsmen! It'll work fine!"
( snippppp )

Commander: "OK! Follow me! There! I spot the person at the piano! Quickly, draw..AAAHHHRGHH WHAT'S THAT!!!! (drops his equipment, but not the mask! As do the others!! ) "
( Astonishing sounds can be heard from the Target, who plays the piano!! )
Bravo, Echo, Delta: "Ahhrgh!! ( but it isn't too bad, it sounds like an Ondine!!! )"
Commander: "noooo! Retreat, retreat! at once!! Run!!"
The others: "Ok!!"

- and so they left their "weapons" there, but not their masks!!  

THXXX again, Mr. Thalberg, for the inspiring answer, whose REAL sense I at first didn't get, so I could make up the "dialog" only MUCH later!   - I sometimes am not anymore as "quick" as I was when I was young.  

_____

But, back to earnest, referring to Valentina Lisitsa: What I once was of the opinion, is valid now, for me, too: I AT LEAST like Valentina Lisitsa's "Gaspard", and speaking of female pianists, for my subjective classification she belongs to the top 10, at last. May be because she's good, may be because she only LOOKS good (to me), may be because there aren't too many female pianists out there, as was fact always and will always be, in comparison to males.

But however:  

Cordially, 8_octaves!!

[stevensk]

In my brain, I can see masked fighters climbing out of her house as they can't stand her playing.

Thal

Ohh I would really really love to see Thal teaching Valentina playing piano! I bet all  masked, fighters would like it as well  

[thalbergmad]

I wouldn't want anything to do with the creature. She is beyond help.

Thal

[stevensk]

I wouldn't want anything to do with the creature. She is beyond help.

Thal

Thats a good escape for you 

[8_octaves]

Now I get really scared:  I read on the tweet that the next journalist has been eliminated. In daylight. And, btw.: by masked hitmen.

Additionally, I read that there must have been some site on the web, (which is now down, as sources state, and I haven't tried the webarchive, because I'm too scared if it was still accessible there), containing a "target list", of person's names (like the 2 journalists' ), addresses, phone-numbers etc.

I think things now go a bit out of control. Very dangerous. What do you think?

Cordially, 8_octaves!

[outin]

I think things now go a bit out of control. Very dangerous. What do you think?

I think your eyes have just been opened to some things going on in the world. Things have been out of control for quite some time. But ignorance is bliss so think before digging deeper...

[8_octaves]

I think your eyes have just been opened to some things going on in the world. Things have been out of control for quite some time. But ignorance is bliss so think before digging deeper...

Yes, outin: How nice the world can be! And, on the other hand, how scary!

"Ignorance is bliss": That sounds ambivalent, because, on the one hand, of course, I don't know much (music, world, web, etc.).  But that was very helpful, you are right! Because, otherwise, I had searched for the scary "list" to be nosy and to look up the names in it. So, on the other hand, my inherent ignorance protected me to dig further! Isn't that a milestone and big step done by me towards me learning about the exciting things going on in the world, of which I had never known until now?   

  Cordially, 8_octaves!
 

[themeandvariation]

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-hughes/the-neo-nazi-question-in_b_4938747.html
…Excerpt:
"... Andriy Parubiy, the new secretary of Ukraine's security council, was a co-founder of the Neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (SNPU), otherwise known as Svoboda. And his deputy, Dmytro Yarosh, is the leader of a party called the Right Sector which, according to historian Timothy Stanley, "flies the old flag of the Ukrainian Nazi collaborators at its rallies."

"The highest-ranking right-wing extremist is Deputy Prime Minister Oleksandr Sych, also a member of Svoboda".
https://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/us-backing-neo-nazis-ukraine
https://www.thenation.com/blog/179057/seven-decades-nazi-collaboration-americas-dirty-little-ukraine-secret#
https://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-government-far-right

[michael_sayers]

When Van Cliburn retired, he still had to give four or five more years of concerts before the contracts ran out.

In a concert pianist's life there is a lot of pressure, stress and work.  Sometimes one can only take so much.

I suspect that this is the start of Valentina Lisitsa's method to retire.  By saying one of the most offensive possible things a person can think of to say publicly, she has ensured that in due course as this is sifted through, all contracts will be cancelled and with new ones not appearing.

She can not publicly acknowledge this strategem, as then she might be expected to continue performing.

The music directors must be the ones to do the cancelling, and - as such - she can get paid without even having to appear.

Whereas, if she were to cancel the next five or more years of concerts just because she does not feel like showing up, I don't think this could be done with legal and financial impunity.  And it would make her appear weak, as would performances with measure after measure of wrong notes to encourage the cancellation of contracts.

I suspect that this is what we are observing as an instance of "Bobby Fischer" syndrome.  He must be forced not to "perform", and it must be in a way that never makes him appear weak.  It must always appear that he is forced by others into non-performance.  In the last ten years of his life, he had to come up with and create reasons for no one to like him or want him around except for some old friends in Iceland, that way he could be (in his mind) "World Chess Champion" until the end and continue to blame his non-performance on others.

And thus - in my suspicion - Valentina Lisitsa in that tweet has come up with the perfect recipe to in due course be forced into non-performance and against her free speech rights (making her appear as victimized).

No concert pianist can manage for long through associations of ideas such as this:

https://upnorth.eu/twisted-muses-hitlers-and-putins-pianists/

Surely it is deliberate, otherwise why would a concert pianist say publicly what has to be among the most self-destructive and toxic things anyone could possibly think of?

[8_octaves]

Hi,

in my Diploma-work I wrote a short passus about Elly Ney. I translate approximately:

[...]She / he who doesn't know her, won't get the relation to music.

The head of an aged lady [ in a picture ] doesn't give any information about the person. The lady is the pianist Elly Ney ( * 27.09.1882 in Düsseldorf, + 31.03.1968 in Tutzing) . The etching by Walter Steinecke, original size: 85 * 85 mm, shows a portrait of the pianist in a corona / rays of light.

No single hint aside of the name in the picture shows in any way a connection to music. The upper right corner [of the pic] shows the year "51", and the upper left corner shows the emblem of the creator, Walter Steinecke.

Elly Ney was, like Paderewski [...], amongst others student of Theodor Leschetitzky. When she was a child, she already was influenced by antisemitism. This was an attitude which later should intensify in her.

She was a supporter of a "humanitarian ethic", but which in her own understanding was only valid for "race-true" Germans.

She got married to the Netherlands' conductor and violinist  Willem van Hoogstraten. Since 1921 Elly Ney has lived in the USA. She was an acknowledged specialist for Beethoven and Brahms.
Since 1930 she shifted her "center of activity" back to Europe, again.
Since 1937 she has been a member of the NSDAP, and she got her nomination ( to become a professor ) by Adolf Hitler.

After 1945 she experienced reputational damage, due to her NS-connections.
1952 she was rehabilitated, and THEN, she could continue her career as a pianist until very old age, and make up record-, film- and TV- recordings.

Her work as an artist brought highest honors to her.

Of course it couldn't be avoided, that after 1945 - and who couldn't understand that !! - there took place a very high sensitivity to persons with former NS - connections or nazi-past. The "dynamite" lies, thus, in the question, whether an art like "music" and political opinions are to be judged SEPARATELY, and, additionally to that, in the question, whether rehabilitation ( after previous confusions of political nature ) should be applied quickly, referring to persons of public interest, or not.

This question is too complex and too delicate / touchy to be discussed here.

Fact is, that the picture [...], for people who know the mentioned backgrounds, in any case motivates to think about it.[...]    

Cordially, 8_octaves!

[quantum]

An update to the story:

https://news.nationalpost.com/arts/on-stage/ukrainian-pianist-valentina-lisitsa-returns-to-toronto-after-tso-ban-lets-her-fingers-do-the-talking