Is it possible for me to play formidable Concertos ?

[hesam]

Hi Im 26 years old and I play piano for one and half year and i can play Chopin nocturnes Nos 1 and 2 and 19 and some of preludes ..

I also played Rachmaninoff moment musical no 5 ( after practice about 3 month on this piece ) and i really practice hard and some times im practice about 7 hour in a day..

I know it sounds laughable  And possibly embarrassing that i ask this question But I really love Rachmaninoff rhapsody and Concerto no 2 and Brahms Concerto no 1 and 2... is there any chance for me to play any of these pieces in Near future years ?

[mjames]

You gotta chill out and stop worrying about that, man. You do realize that the people who play those concertos have studied music for pretty much all of their lives, right? You're selling yourself way too high for thinking about rach concertos this early in the game. To me, that all depends if you're willing to stick with music or not. So just enjoy the process man, and have fun playing piano.

[chopinlover01]

As said above, the large scale works you mentioned are waaay far ahead in the game. The works you've mentioned are all several times more difficult than the one's you've played.
You're doing fine, just get a good teacher and stick with it, and someday you can play the concertos. It may take several years of intense study, but as mjames just said, the people who play the concertos, and more importantly, play them well, have been studying music since age 5 or so. Not always the case but most often it is.

[louispodesta]

Hi Im 26 years old and I play piano for one and half year and i can play Chopin nocturnes Nos 1 and 2 and 19 and some of preludes ..

I also played Rachmaninoff moment musical no 5 ( after practice about 3 month on this piece ) and i really practice hard and some times im practice about 7 hour in a day..

I know it sounds laughable  And possibly embarrassing that i ask this question But I really love Rachmaninoff rhapsody and Concerto no 2 and Brahms Concerto no 1 and 2... is there any chance for me to play any of these pieces in Near future years ?

1)  Don't practice  seven hours a day.  At your level, it is a complete waste of time and energy. How do I know that?  Duh!- you figure it out.

2)  The first two Beethoven Concertos are commonly taught as student pieces.  And, they are commonly, especially the 2nd, performed with major orchestras throughout the world.

3)  The notes to any of the major Mozart Concerti (C Major, A Major, C Minor, F Major) are a no brainer to learn.  That DOES NOT MEAN that you will have them ready for performance, but it does mean that you will have them under your fingers when you are ready to perform at that level.

The VERY BIG SECRET is that most piano teachers have a tiny concerto repertoire.  Therefore, they do not teach these pieces.

If you want anyone to take you seriously as a performer, you have to have a significant concerto repertoire.  Start with the Beethoven and Mozart (Poulenc?), and my compliments for having the foresight and "guts" to broach the question.
 

[hesam]

Dear mjames and chopinlover01 thanks for youre reply and Friendly advice...

1)  Don't practice  seven hours a day.  At your level, it is a complete waste of time and energy. How do I know that?  Duh!- you figure it out.

2)  The first two Beethoven Concertos are commonly taught as student pieces.  And, they are commonly, especially the 2nd, performed with major orchestras throughout the world.

3)  The notes to any of the major Mozart Concerti (C Major, A Major, C Minor, F Major) are a no brainer to learn.  That DOES NOT MEAN that you will have them ready for performance, but it does mean that you will have them under your fingers when you are ready to perform at that level.

The VERY BIG SECRET is that most piano teachers have a tiny concerto repertoire.  Therefore, they do not teach these pieces.

If you want anyone to take you seriously as a performer, you have to have a significant concerto repertoire.  Start with the Beethoven and Mozart (Poulenc?), and my compliments for having the foresight and "guts" to broach the question.
 

louispodesta many thanks for youre wonderful Recommendations.

1 . yes sometimes I really tired Of Exercise ...How much exercise do i need every day ?

2. I buy J.C.F Bach concerto in e-flat major ( Music Minus one series ) i play nearly half of the first mov of this concerto do you think this piece could help me ?

[louispodesta]

Briefly:  Thanks for your very kind compliments, and in regards: . . . yes sometimes I really tired Of Exercise ...How much exercise do i need every day ?

Those of us who have studied and utilize the Alexander Technique approach, or the Taubman approach, no longer waste a better part of our day playing exercises, scales, or arpeggios.  This daily regimen, as accurately stated by one of the greatest technique masters of all time (Earl Wild), does not physically translate into mastering the fingerings of a specific piece.

The human brain is not constructed in such a fashion.  Just ask any engineer or architect if whether or not knowing the basic skills of how to work with wood or steel gives you the credentials to build anything of substance.

As far as advice on your concerto repertoire, I will respond by private message.

[michael_sayers]

Hi Louis,

It is nice to see that you are here!


Mvh,
Michael

[dcstudio]

I think it's very possible if you approach it in the right way.  I am very well trained and I have been playing for 46 years.  There came a time about 25 years in that I made an exponential jump in my understanding of theory and also in my ability to play--it was kind of strange actually--I just sort of "got it" one day.   Anyway, what I realized is that I always "had it" I was just afraid to use it. 

If you believe that these concertos can only be played by lifelong pianists--well you are just setting yourself up for failure.   Try to take an attitude of "I am just not giving up until I can do this. "

spend time listening to these pieces--analyze the form--watch as many different performers playing these as you can..   Learn little bits of it first--a measure or two at a time---this makes it far less overwhelming. Pick out the main themes by ear with the RH and keep telling yourself "this is easy.."  no matter how frustrated you become. 
Watch professional tutorials--some are really quite well done and can be very helpful.
Study the score away from the piano, too so that your eyes will be come accustomed to it before you even sit down to play.  you can do this for weeks before you commit to learning it.  As you look at the score imagine where the notes are on the piano--do this slowly.   It will make an amazing difference.

most importantly---don't let anyone tell you that you can't achieve this. 

I look forward to your performance video!

BEST OF LUCK 

[hesam]

I think it's very possible if you approach it in the right way.  I am very well trained and I have been playing for 46 years.  There came a time about 25 years in that I made an exponential jump in my understanding of theory and also in my ability to play--it was kind of strange actually--I just sort of "got it" one day.   Anyway, what I realized is that I always "had it" I was just afraid to use it. 

If you believe that these concertos can only be played by lifelong pianists--well you are just setting yourself up for failure.   Try to take an attitude of "I am just not giving up until I can do this. "

spend time listening to these pieces--analyze the form--watch as many different performers playing these as you can..   Learn little bits of it first--a measure or two at a time---this makes it far less overwhelming. Pick out the main themes by ear with the RH and keep telling yourself "this is easy.."  no matter how frustrated you become. 
Watch professional tutorials--some are really quite well done and can be very helpful.
Study the score away from the piano, too so that your eyes will be come accustomed to it before you even sit down to play.  you can do this for weeks before you commit to learning it.  As you look at the score imagine where the notes are on the piano--do this slowly.   It will make an amazing difference.

most importantly---don't let anyone tell you that you can't achieve this. 

I look forward to your performance video!

BEST OF LUCK 

Dear dcstudio Many thanks for youre Encouraging reply..

I really  take piano playing seriously and I Hope i have Some good Development on it !

[kawai_cs]

Trying to force yourself into playing something that is far out of your reach will not do you ANY favour. On the contrary, it may be and it most probably will be just destructive.
After such short time of learning to play the piano you simply do not have the skills and just saying yourself that you are able to play will not get you those skills. I am sorry to say this but it is just the way it is for all of us.
You can spend your time analyzing the score, listening and watching the artists playing it - but this time will be most probably wasted. Why?
Because instead of practicing and playing pieces at your skill level and progressively increasing the difficulty level you will be trying to "cheat". To me it is like somebody who just learned how to walk wants to run the marathon right away.
Yes, you can play those pieces - in a few years, when you commit yourself to the piano and learn the skills PROGRESSIVELY.
During my teenage time I was so very fond of Chopin (of course I still am) that I sat long hours and tried to play his pieces - nocturnes, preludes, etudes. My teacher would always tell me - do not waste your time, practice 'your' stuff. I would not listen, I just could not understand - why not??
I understand it today - playing too difficult stuff, for which I was not prepared and did not have the skills at that time, resulted in forceful playing, full of tension. It got me bad habits, constant tension - I needed a long time to get rid of those bad habits (still not sure if I completely managed to).
Yes, I was able to play some of the pieces, or let's say, play parts of them but this playing was connected to so much stress, tension and it was just not natural. It was forced. And you could hear it (and see it). It was not satisfying at all, on the contrary, very destructive, for finally I was so sad and frustrated, that despite all of that hard work and time I was not able to play them as good pianists do, that I decided to quit piano - and have not touched the keyboard for many years.
Had I continued with normal studying of the regular pieces, progressively, I am sure I would have made a great progress.
The decision is yours.

[hesam]

Trying to force yourself into playing something that is far out of your reach will not do you ANY favour. On the contrary, it may be and it most probably will be just destructive.
After such short time of learning to play the piano you simply do not have the skills and just saying yourself that you are able to play will not get you those skills. I am sorry to say this but it is just the way it is for all of us.
You can spend your time analyzing the score, listening and watching the artists playing it - but this time will be most probably wasted. Why?
Because instead of practicing and playing pieces at your skill level and progressively increasing the difficulty level you will be trying to "cheat". To me it is like somebody who just learned how to walk wants to run the marathon right away.
Yes, you can play those pieces - in a few years, when you commit yourself to the piano and learn the skills PROGRESSIVELY.
During my teenage time I was so very fond of Chopin (of course I still am) that I sat long hours and tried to play his pieces - nocturnes, preludes, etudes. My teacher would always tell me - do not waste your time, practice 'your' stuff. I would not listen, I just could not understand - why not??
I understand it today - playing too difficult stuff, for which I was not prepared and did not have the skills at that time, resulted in forceful playing, full of tension. It got me bad habits, constant tension - I needed a long time to get rid of those bad habits (still not sure if I completely managed to).
Yes, I was able to play some of the pieces, or let's say, play parts of them but this playing was connected to so much stress, tension and it was just not natural. It was forced. And you could hear it (and see it). It was not satisfying at all, on the contrary, very destructive, for finally I was so sad and frustrated, that despite all of that hard work and time I was not able to play them as good pianists do, that I decided to quit piano - and have not touched the keyboard for many years.
Had I continued with normal studying of the regular pieces, progressively, I am sure I would have made a great progress.
The decision is yours.

very thanks for youre Thought-provoking reply and i really Convinced with your Experience..

ّ
I really Percept that I must stay in progress But i just want to be sure that i have a good view for my future because i started piano late....

[dcstudio]

I am an eternal optimist...


I don't think time spent studying music is ever wasted....

[kawai_cs]

I am an eternal optimist...


I don't think time spent studying music is ever wasted....

It is a good thing to be an optimist.
Of course the time spent studying music it never wasted it is just that ... one can use their precious time more or less productively. I learned that there are no shortcuts in piano playing. I decided to share that since I can totally relate to what the author of the thread is writing about themselves.
Good luck to him/her and keep working hard and you will reach your goals "per aspera ad astra"

[louispodesta]

I think it's very possible if you approach it in the right way. . . There came a time . . . in that I made an exponential jump in my understanding of theory and also in my ability to play . . .  

If you believe that these concertos can only be played by lifelong pianists--well you are just setting yourself up for failure.   Try to take an attitude of "I am just not giving up until I can do this. "

spend time listening to these pieces--analyze the form--watch as many different performers playing these as you can..   Learn little bits of it first--a measure or two at a time---this makes it far less overwhelming. Pick out the main themes by ear with the RH and keep telling yourself "this is easy.."  no matter how frustrated you become . . most importantly---don't let anyone tell you that you can't achieve this. 

Very, very well said.  And, what the conservatories don't tell you, because it would take away from there omnipotent aura of musical perfection, is that Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven never went to music school.

They, like others of their time, studied pianoforte and composition/theory privately.  And, these folks composed 50% of the concerto repertoire that the entire musical world plays, today.

So, should you should feel intimidated by yearning to learn a piano concerto?  The answer is absolutely not!

This, at the age of 63, this is what I tell myself every day.  They are notes on a printed page, I have ten fingers, and many, many other human beings have learned and played these pieces before me (for centuries!).

[diomedes]

It depends on your perseverance on a long term basis. Also on your resources too, specifically experience and understanding of learning. I suppose natural technique is necessary, but i never had issues in that department.

I did Tchaikovsky and Chopin 1 when i was fairly young 18 -21. Now, more than 10 years later i'm dealing with Prokofiev 2. Mind you i had generally poor "ability" back then but worked like a dog, now my understanding of the piano is enormously more developed.

That being said, everyone is extremely different. If it takes you 3 months for Rachmaninov MMop.16nr.5 you are in for a rough ride though. If you work at developing your skills over a long length of time i can't see why not, but if you expect too much too soon you won't be pleased.

Some people are hard on themselves every chance they get, others never ruffle their feathers. Depends on who you are.

[kawai_cs]

Diomedes, what you write is really ... hm weird.

I suppose natural technique is necessary, but i never had issues in that department.

 

What is natural technique? If you never had issues "in that department" what did you do all those years (presuming you were not acquiring the technique because you have it naturally? ).

If the author of the thread is able to play Rachmaninoff op 16 no 5 after 1.5 years of learning the piano, and he learns that in 3 months - then he makes great progress.

[dcstudio]

It is a good thing to be an optimist.
. I learned that there are no shortcuts in piano playing

I am not so sure about that anymore...   I mean when I was a student I believed it--of course--but now... It's been 46 years of riding the keys and looking back--I am certain that there were aspects of my oh so formal training that actually prevented me from progressing... 

there are no shortcuts -- but I believe there must be a more efficient and direct way to the golden road of piano nirvanna...    one that doesn't involve the neurosis that almost always accompanies true formal training. 

[diomedes]

What is natural technique? If you never had issues "in that department" what did you do all those years

Natural technique is committing to a task with no consequence physically. Getting it done no strain etc. I worked very hard, but my hands and results never indicated that i was doing anything wrong.

Getting your mind around a rachmaninov concerto is a rather different story. Either you can do it or not. But, time as a very generous factor, it's possible. But there has to be consistent determined effort and a decent technique. The op will probably get married and have kids before that happens and well..... what's wrong with that? heh, please, prove me wrong, by all means.

[louispodesta]

Natural technique is committing to a task with no consequence physically. Getting it done no strain etc. I worked very hard, but my hands and results never indicated that i was doing anything wrong.

Getting your mind around a rachmaninov concerto is a rather different story. Either you can do it or not. But, time as a very generous factor, it's possible. But there has to be consistent determined effort and a decent technique. The op will probably get married and have kids before that happens and well..... what's wrong with that? heh, please, prove me wrong, by all means.

I am so glad, with all due respect, that you broached the subject of eventual life experience.  That means, that after all is said and done, in my opinion, where are all of the great young prodigies and contest winners of this world?

Mostly, they are maybe (if they are lucky) an "Artist in Residence" in some college town in the middle of nowhere!  Absent that, if they didn't win "X" number of contests, then they (with their DMA) are teaching K-5 at some Elementary school.

My former Dean of the College of Fine Arts, who was the Dean at Eastman and the President at MIT ( Dr. Robert Freeman), has made it his life work to document how most degreed classical musicians are working at jobs not even remotely related to music.

So, how dare you seek to advise a true soul, who has the brains and the temerity to ask for advice on how to learn a piano concerto.  As previously stated, based on the track record of the worlds great piano students, where do you come off?

[diomedes]

So, how dare you seek to advise a true soul, who has the brains and the temerity to ask for advice on how to learn a piano concerto.  As previously stated, based on the track record of the worlds great piano students, where do you come off?

How dare i seek to advise? I don't get it, he asked for advice. It was fairly practical advice too, I made it clear that it's possible and i also produced a reasonable scenario on the side. From nothing to that level repertoire takes very long in terms of training to do it properly. Of course, the definition of properly varies heavily from one to another.

Absent that, if they didn't win "X" number of contests, then they (with their DMA) are teaching K-5 at some Elementary school.

Maybe they're teaching music and enjoy it, that's also possible, everyone does after all strive to do what they love.

[outin]

I think it's very possible if you approach it in the right way.  I am very well trained and I have been playing for 46 years.  There came a time about 25 years in that I made an exponential jump in my understanding of theory and also in my ability to play--it was kind of strange actually--I just sort of "got it" one day.   Anyway, what I realized is that I always "had it" I was just afraid to use it. 

Did you really? Have it always I mean?

The fact is that you HAD been playing and trained for 25 years. That experience, no matter how inadequate it felt at that moment did contribute a lot. I always find it a bit amusing when people who have been playing for decades start telling beginners that they can achieve the same in a few years if they just do it right 

It's normal for people to make huge sudden leaps in their learning, but that doesn't mean that the leap didn't require the previous work as well as that moment of "seeing the light".

[louispodesta]

How dare i seek to advise? I don't get it, he asked for advice. It was fairly practical advice too, I made it clear that it's possible and i also produced a reasonable scenario on the side. From nothing to that level repertoire takes very long in terms of training to do it properly. Of course, the definition of properly varies heavily from one to another.

Maybe they're teaching music and enjoy it, that's also possible, everyone does after all strive to do what they love.

First, the part of my post that you conveniently left out: "My former Dean of the College of Fine Arts, who was the Dean at Eastman and the President at MIT  (Dr. Robert Freeman), has made it his life work to document how most degreed classical musicians are working at jobs not even remotely related to music."

So, let me get this straight:  A 28 or 29 year old pianist with a doctorate (who spent a minimum of ten years getting there) just decides to teach a bunch of 5 - 7 year olds how to march around a classroom, sing, and play a tambourine because they just love music.

Have I been asleep for the last 25 years or do you get a pass on your student loan payments if you teach elementary school in certain parts of my country?

Secondly, learning how to play the piano as advised by the music schools of this world, based on their non-existent track record, means nothing.  For starters, they don't (like all of the other Fine Art disciplines) even require their students to study historic performance practice.

Secondly, if their methodology was valid, accurate and on point, the world would be littered with concert pianists.  AND, IT IS NOT!!

[outin]

Secondly, if their methodology was valid, accurate and on point, the world would be littered with concert pianists.  AND, IT IS NOT!!

Unless your premise is wrong and everyone just does not have what it takes to become one, no matter how they are taught (and it's not only about playing ability, I know some wonderfully skilled pianists that are not concert pianists).

Also a concert pianist status usually requires some demand from the audience so one must ask: How many concert pianists are actually needed in the world at one time?

I find your reasoning rather weak here.

[diomedes]

i don't have many big issues with what louispodesta says. I don't disagree or agree with his information.

Also a concert pianist status usually requires some demand from the audience so one must ask: How many concert pianists are actually needed in the world at one time?

But i do agree with that strongly.

[louispodesta]

i don't have many big issues with what louispodesta says. I don't disagree or agree with his information.

But i do agree with that strongly.

I will be polite, and also informative.  Accordingly, I have spent the last 30 years of my life studying (as a philosopher) the music business.  Aesthetic criticism is the formal term for the time I have spent analyzing the mechanics of same.

So, there are millions of live music venues throughout this planet.  Then, there should, in terms of apportion, also be the same number in regards not only classical piano but also classical music in general.  There is not!

In the early 20th century, there were over 300,000 pianos sold each year in the U.S., and that, of course, does not include western Europe.

In 2005, there were 30,000 Grand Pianos sold a year in the U.S., and now the number is 10,000 (Pearl River?).  You do the math

I guess, according to your logic, that means that the musical families of the late 19th and early 20th centuries were all idiots, and we, in the 21st century, are now all enlightened.

[sv3nno]

Well, I started playing when I was 5 and have played for 12,5 years as of now - and only now am I on the level where I can start studying the more difficult works of the romantic composers, such as Liszt rhapsodies, etudes, some Ravel etc.

But the works you mentioned - Rach and Brahms concertos - are still beyond my ability, and will be probably for another year or two.

But You are an adult beginner, who has been playing for 1,5 years. You said it took you 3 months to learn Rach's moment musicaux op. 16 no. 5 - it would take me perhaps a couple of days to learn and memorize it, if I practiced 7 hours a day as you mentioned.

Learn lots of Bach... preludes and fugues, easier partitas and such. You can soon perhaps start with Czerny etudes... in a few years perhaps easier chopin's Etudes and some easier Beethoven. I have to be honest - I think there's a clear limit to how much an adult beginner such as you can progress, and It might be below the level of the concertos you mentioned. Especially if you don't have a teacher - at your level, studying with a teacher is probably about 90% more effective than studying on your own.

[louispodesta]

Well, I started playing when I was 5 and have played for 12,5 years as of now - and only now am I on the level where I can start studying the more difficult works of the romantic composers, such as Liszt rhapsodies, etudes, some Ravel etc.

But the works you mentioned - Rach and Brahms concertos - are still beyond my ability, and will be probably for another year or two.

But You are an adult beginner, who has been playing for 1,5 years. You said it took you 3 months to learn Rach's moment musicaux op. 16 no. 5 - it would take me perhaps a couple of days to learn and memorize it, if I practiced 7 hours a day as you mentioned.

Learn lots of Bach... preludes and fugues, easier partitas and such. You can soon perhaps start with Czerny etudes... in a few years perhaps easier chopin's Etudes and some easier Beethoven. I have to be honest - I think there's a clear limit to how much an adult beginner such as you can progress, and It might be below the level of the concertos you mentioned. Especially if you don't have a teacher - at your level, studying with a teacher is probably about 90% more effective than studying on your own.

I will not edit what this person has said.  However, I, personally have not found any of his points to be universally true.  In specific instances, they may be, but, in general they, in my opinion, are not.

Playing the piano is not rocket science, it is the bio-mechanical proper training of the mind and body to translate written notes from a score into music.  If the OP, who I can assure you has a great heart, can access the internet, then there are Taubman teachers who teach vis a vis SKYPE.

I know that it is best when a personal teacher is there, but this is not an option for the OP.  Thank your lucky stars that you live in a country where you can take a piano lesson.

Once again, my sincere congratulations to the OP for having the courage to ask for advice.  And, for the record, most of the Concerto repertoire was written and performed on wooden sound board pianofortes.  It is not technically challenging stuff.

As far as the Rachmaninoff is concerned, I have psoriatic arthritis, a small hand, and spindly fingers.  Yet, today, with an unexpected flare up threatening, I spent a small amount of time furthering my memorization of this composers second concerto.

Go for it, OP, and don't let anyone dissuade you!

[cbreemer]

In the early 20th century, there were over 300,000 pianos sold each year in the U.S., and that, of course, does not include western Europe.

LOL... thanks for clarifying that 

[dcstudio]

Did you really? Have it always I mean?

The fact is that you HAD been playing and trained for 25 years. That experience, no matter how inadequate it felt at that moment did contribute a lot. I always find it a bit amusing when people who have been playing for decades start telling beginners that they can achieve the same in a few years if they just do it right 

It's normal for people to make huge sudden leaps in their learning, but that doesn't mean that the leap didn't require the previous work as well as that moment of "seeing the light".

did I always have it?   I don't really know.  No, probably not---it just feels that way looking back. 

I have been playing for so long that I really have forgotten what it was like to be a beginner.  When I had my "epiphany"  for lack of a better term--I looked back and realized that I had made some mistakes along the way.   I also realized that I had let others tell me what I was capable of as a pianist--and consequently I sought to define my students in that same way.  I would like to think that I would have progressed far more rapidly had I not had so many misconceptions about studying the piano.

I didn't mean to suggest that my huge leap in understanding was not the result of extensive study and practice. 

to be honest...do I think the OP will succeed -- odds are certainly against that happening at his present level.  I have seen a couple of self-taught adults attempt the big stuff... it wasn't pretty that's for sure. 

As a lifetime pianist I would like to think that what I do is impossible without a lifetime of training....     that's the last thing a student wants to hear though.  lol.