I'm told practice makes perfection

[compline]

After playing a piece through several times and without error, I can then can mess up usually on the last 4 or 5 bars,  the next practice session.  It is most frustrating. 
Aslo, when folks say they practice 2 to 4 hours a day, do they mean on one particular piece  or on several pieces,  including scales, arpeggios, etc.
Thanks.

[abel2]

That saying is false. Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. Since one cannot practice perfectly, on will never be perfect. Also, depending on what they play piano for, they probably do just songs, or both.

[themeandvariation]

Hi, Compline.
I would practice the last 4-5 bars First at the beginning of the next practice session..  Perhaps a bit under tempo from your previous last tempo - at first. Then proceed from the beginning and being somewhat cautious as you approach the last 5 bars.
(However you are practicing, it is precisely That which you are enforcing… so if you are practicing with pauses, or a mistaken note (s) etc, you are enforcing those things as well as the stuff you get correctly… )

I am not certain about this idea of perfection, but with steady practice on trouble spots, one is looking to feel 'comfortable' with what is entailed technically… If you are 'tightening up' , it may be  a sign that you are not yet comfortable.. Perfection of interpretation is a whole other subject…  and i am not even sure that the word perfection even applies - as it can be highly subjective.
Cheers!
 

[iansinclair]

I do not practice 2 to 4 hours per day; to be honest, I'm not sure I ever have!  Up to 2 hours a day is normal... but I break it up into half to three quarter hour sections, as my hands can't take much more than that.  Each session, then, will be a brief warmup -- always some "cocktail bar" music! -- which gets the fingers moving and ears going, then I work on two or three of the pieces which are in my current repertoire, so as to keep them current.  Then one piece which I am working up to add to my rep.  Typically four sessions per day.

I suppose I am a heretic, but I have never spent any appreciable time on scales or arpeggios or such separately; I have enough trouble with the ones in my repertoire pieces!

As to "practice makes perfect".  Don't I wish.  As abel2 said, perfect practice might.  However, what does work (for me) is with the pieces in rep., if a passage has gotten odd, and they do, I will work on that passage plus the complete thought on both sides of it a few times, until I figure out where the kinks are and get rid of them.  On pieces which I am working up, I do the same kind of thing, but paying much more attention to getting fingerings consistent and keeping them that way.  

[diomedes]

That saying is false. Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. Since one cannot practice perfectly, on will never be perfect.

Possibly, But you can improve practice. Imagine if you continuously improved it and where it could go given enough time and consideration. For me, that is my story and i really scare myself with the progress i made when i truly set my mind to it. When i was young, i appreciate my effort and willingness but that can only get you so far.

I also think that a degree of understanding of the task complements the accomplishment of it. Extremely broad minds can accomplish so much with little effort, a pretentious example is someone like Richter who's facility and memory are staggering.

I suppose I am a heretic, but I have never spent any appreciable time on scales or arpeggios or such separately; I have enough trouble with the ones in my repertoire pieces!

In the early stages it's logical, but i would never do it now or wish i did in the past 15 years.

[quantum]

I prefer the statement: Practice makes practice. 

When one messes up recurrently on a particular section, it is useful to gain an understanding of what exactly is the cause of the issue.  Practice by simple repetition with the hope of a fix by serendipity can be frustrating, time consuming, and ultimately prove unsuccessful. 

Evaluating the effectiveness of a fix by counting the number of perfect runs in a single session can point to misleading results: one could have stored a band aid solution into muscle memory and short-term memory without fully coming to an understanding of what the cause of the problem really is.  Upon the onset of a following practice session the problem reappears. 

If your problem spot occurs in the last 4 to 5 bars, then practice the last 4 to 5 bars in isolation.  Running the entire piece beginning to end will not focus your attention to the trouble spot, it may give you a good feeling that you can play part of the piece well - but that will not help you correct the last few measures.  Playing an entire piece in order to correct a small trouble spot is also far more time consuming then working on the section in isolation.


When it comes to practice times, most people are referring to cumulative time working at the instrument in a day.  It could be divided up into multiple sessions (as referred to in previous posts).  If referring to a particular piece, it may take the form of: "I spent X time working on X piece." 

There is usually what I like to term a saturation threshold per day.  That is a maximum time to which practice is progressive and effective.  Beyond this point the mind can no longer absorb any more data and any further practice results in a state of diminishing returns.  The mind needs time to digest the material learned in a practice session in order to make space for new incoming information.  This time differs for each individual, an one needs to recognize when one has reached this point.  At such time it is best to stop practicing and proceed to a different activity.

[compline]

Thank you all so much for your helpful advice and guidance  on my particular problem  focusing on the key areas that need more attention and practice.   
 

[ted]

The term "practice" implies the existence of some other state which is "the real thing". As this latter varies greatly with the individual, so too does the nature and quantity of "practice" in order to attain it. Can one "practise" improvisation for instance ? For myself, I have found the hard way that practice only makes something permanent, not perfect, especially in the physical aspect. Only in recent years have I had brains enough to consider carefully whether my "practice" was really likely to enhance my "real thing". It is ultimately a question each must answer for himself, independently of "expert" tuition.

[bernadette60614]

What a very good question.

IMHO, professional practice makes for a more professional performance.  I don't mean a performance for which other people will pay to hear, but one that does justice to the music and the composer's intent.

When I first began playing, I started from the beginning and played to the point where I didn't know it, then I'd attack that hands alone, hands together.

Now (5 years into study), I sit down with the piece first away from piano and analyze as much as I can:  where is the fingering going to be challenging, which sections contain technical challenges which I find difficult to master, what at the patterns in the music. Before I touch the piano, I mark off the challenging sections, number the measures, yellow highlight the repeating patterns.

Then, I touch the keys.  I start with the most challenging sections, because I'm at the height of my enthusiasm for the piece at the beginning, and each practice session for some time I'll begin with those sections.  Everything else comes thereafter.

At the end of every practice session, I'll write out an outline of the next practice session, sequence of pieces, sections and duration of practice.  Some days, I just skip the plan, most days I find if I stick to it, I can feel progress.

I'm not a teacher, nor a professional,so I find it is helpful to read books about practice.  One of my favorite is "The Practice Revolution."

[louispodesta]

After playing a piece through several times and without error, I can then can mess up usually on the last 4 or 5 bars,  the next practice session.  It is most frustrating. 
Aslo, when folks say they practice 2 to 4 hours a day, do they mean on one particular piece  or on several pieces,  including scales, arpeggios, etc.
Thanks.

1)  I practice the endings of pieces on a regular basis because permanent muscle memory is reflexive.  That means, you don't have to think about it and it just happens.

2)  What I just said is that you can program your brain for success or for failure.  Unfortunately, the "Conservatory" approach to modern pianism dictates note-perfect playing.  That, in my opinion, is a recipe for failure.  In, in no terms, was the "original" performance practice in the 19th century. 

Arthur Rubinstein admits in his biography that he regularly played IV, V, I at the end of pieces when his mind went blank.

I personally know of a pianist who did this at the end of the Prokofiev 1st Piano Concerto.  He could not remember the notes so he played the chord progression.  And, for the record, the audience of music majors jumped and cheered at the level of his performance.

Therefore, learn your music (chord progressions), especially the endings.  And, that means you write it into the score above each and every major chord.  AND, that means you do this for all of your music!

As far as practicing two to four hours a day, I practice two hours in the morning, and two hours in the afternoon.  Per your life schedule, you can adjust this anyway you want.

1)  A human brain cannot concentrate for over 90 minutes at a time, and 2)  therefore, you can mix and match any of your repertoire (in whole or in part) whichever way you so choose.

Thank you for your very thoughtful inquiry.  It shows me that if you continue to ask these very good questions that you will have much success in the future.

[yadeehoo]

I guess everyone practices differently, I'm only learning new things after 2 hours warm up.

Before that I pratice on small parts, I make micro etudes out of the difficult parts I practice, and loop them. Also pratice rythm and with metronome to see if my transitions are fluid. Never giving up, there's just days like that, but eventually, you're better today than yesterday

[louispodesta]

I guess everyone practices differently, I'm only learning new things after 2 hours warm up.

Before that I pratice on small parts, I make micro etudes out of the difficult parts I practice, and loop them. Also pratice rythm and with metronome to see if my transitions are fluid. Never giving up, there's just days like that, but eventually, you're better today than yesterday

Very well said!

I have not stated this before, but a particular pianist has to gear/arrange their practice routine specific to their own body AND their own personality.  What you are doing is not only correct, it is also perfectly normal.

The "Horrible/Awful" music "Conservatory" approach to the study of music dictates that one size fits all.   That is actually true, except their human model manifested itself through a handful of pianists who had a very limited knowledge of normal body technique.

Please keep on doing what you are doing, but taking two hours to warm up shows me that you need to consider more recent research into this matter.  Accordingly, you may contact me by private message for further guidance.

And, in case anyone is wondering, I have NEVER charged or accepted a fee for this action.

[bronnestam]

What a very good question.

IMHO, professional practice makes for a more professional performance.  I don't mean a performance for which other people will pay to hear, but one that does justice to the music and the composer's intent.

When I first began playing, I started from the beginning and played to the point where I didn't know it, then I'd attack that hands alone, hands together.

Now (5 years into study), I sit down with the piece first away from piano and analyze as much as I can:  where is the fingering going to be challenging, which sections contain technical challenges which I find difficult to master, what at the patterns in the music. Before I touch the piano, I mark off the challenging sections, number the measures, yellow highlight the repeating patterns.

Then, I touch the keys.  I start with the most challenging sections, because I'm at the height of my enthusiasm for the piece at the beginning, and each practice session for some time I'll begin with those sections.  Everything else comes thereafter.

At the end of every practice session, I'll write out an outline of the next practice session, sequence of pieces, sections and duration of practice.  Some days, I just skip the plan, most days I find if I stick to it, I can feel progress.

I'm not a teacher, nor a professional,so I find it is helpful to read books about practice.  One of my favorite is "The Practice Revolution."

I work exactly as you do, bernadette. The more I practice away from the piano, the faster I learn. And, best of all: my earlier constant problems with pains in my hands and tendons have practically vanished totally. This is not just because I have reduced my "actual" playing time (that is, I only play what I SHOULD play, not wasting energy on other things), but also because I start playing with much better confidence now. I simply KNOW what I'm going to play and work with, and this makes me more relaxed. When I don't really know what to do, I get tense and stressed.

It was Liszt (I believe) who said: "think ten times, play once". It is rather common to do the opposite, I think. And I also think this is because we believe that piano playing is like running - as long as you move your legs and keep your pulse high, you build up your heart and muscles ... therefore you improve. Therefore we want to keep our hands moving.  Sitting apparently "passive" cannot make a good pianist, or?

Well, in these days my sheet music often lies here on my desk, at my computer, and I read it with a pencil in my hand and take notes before I go to the piano. One thing I still need to do at the piano is to work out the fingering; that does not work for me theoretically. But then I often leave the piano again for a while ...

So I write a plan before I go to the piano, and afterwards I evaluate, in writing, how it all went and I use this as a base for my next planning and so on. Some days I don't have to write so much, I just do what I did yesterday. But there are days when I spend hours on practice, where 2/3 of this time is devoted to "pre and post work" and just 1/3 is actually spent at the piano.
Why I do this? Because I make progress much, much faster in this way. I have tried, so this is not just wild guesses. It really works.   

[louispodesta]

In the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries, all serious pianists and organists were required to study composition and theory from a separate teacher.  The reason being is that they were expected, like the recent rock and roll musicians of the latter 20th century, to play "their own stuff."  That is why, in relevant musicological terms, these earlier pianists are today referred to as "Composer Pianists."

Therefore, instead of going through all of this, what I term Super-Brain steps to learn a piece of music "away from the piano," just do it the same way every single one of the great composers (pianists) learned their craft.  It is exactly the same neural process, and it works!

Earl Wild, who was the last great pianist to do this, says so very specifically in his memoir.

[michael_sayers]

After playing a piece through several times and without error, I can then can mess up usually on the last 4 or 5 bars,  the next practice session.  It is most frustrating. 
Aslo, when folks say they practice 2 to 4 hours a day, do they mean on one particular piece  or on several pieces,  including scales, arpeggios, etc.
Thanks.

Hi compline,

I would say that for all of us, practice makes less imperfect.


Mvh,
Michael

[iansinclair]

Hi compline,

I would say that for all of us, practice makes less imperfect.


Mvh,
Michael

How true!  Exactly!