Learning the Chopin Etudes

[28843253]

Hi pianostreet!

I am planning on improving my technique, and to that end, will be looking to study and play a fair number of Chopin's etudes. Lately, I have noticed that while my interpretative ability is decent, my poor technique infringes on the quality of my playing. I have yet to seriously tackle any of his etudes and will be dedicating the next few months to a course of study on these pieces.

To give some context, I currently play the following pieces:
Beethoven sonata 'Pathetique', 'Appassionata', Op 110
Chopin Ballade 1 and 4, Polonaise A flat, as well as a smattering of waltzes and nocturnes
Schubert Op 90

What etudes would you consider essential/non-essential? Do you have a suggested order for learning the etudes? Any tips of suggestions will be much appreciated!

Lastly, I will be using the schirmer edition for my purposes.

[visitor]

i would not use the etudes to build on/improve poor technique. they are best suited to polishing an already existing solid technical base.

best thing you can do to improve and build technique is to work on basics. poor technique is almost always due to sloppy fundamentals.

ie work your basic scales arpegios and broken chordes, all keys 4 octaves, parallel and contrary motion and in 3rds, 6ths, 10ths.  get the mcfarren manual for guidance on fingerings.

then play lots and lots of music at or slightly below your current level. sprinkle in a few slightly above to benchmark and check your progress. hire a good teacher.

the best pianists in the world are expert beginners. they execute the boring 'non sexy' stuff with a level of excellence few care to bother to achieve, they then pair that w/ uncommon creativity.

[diomedes]

I keep giving my book of Chopin Etudes and Liszt Etudes very weary looks. One day i'll have to work on them, nothing but slavery.

That said, your repertoire suggests you can manage many of them. If it was me, and i'm sort of in your situation, I'd begin with one of nerve wracking ones 10/2 or 25/6 and work on something farther down the ladder of difficulty, and negotiate your way through the spectrum. I'd consider all of them essential if you're very serious.

Which edition you use won't change the final outcome, but it's not a bad habit to have access to others to make comparisons and develop your awareness/knowledge.

Tips? Practice. A lot. And memorize them while driving to work. In other words, if you're serious, make them your life ;p

i would not use the etudes to build on/improve poor technique. they are best suited to polishing an already existing solid technical base.

best thing you can do to improve and build technique is to work on basics. poor technique is almost always due to sloppy fundamentals.

I agree. I'd say learning as much as you can is really the bottom line in "developing technique", if such exists.

[mjames]

I'm more surprised at the fact that someone who's playing the heroic, two ballades, major Beethoven sonatas has never attempted an etude before. That and the fact that this same person who claims to be playing these monster pieces calls his technique 'poor.' The Chopin etudes are meant for pianists who already have a firm grasp at the fundamentals of piano playing so if your technique is poor, I suggest you avoid the etudes. Cause chances are that you're just going to play them poorly too, and rather than improving your technique, you'll detriment your progress even further. I say go back to the drawing board, work on your fundamentals, unlearn bad-habits, and work your way back up.

A person who plays an extraordinary Clementi sonatina is better than someone who plays the Ballades poorly.  

[rubinsteinmad]

Hi pianostreet!

I am planning on improving my technique, and to that end, will be looking to study and play a fair number of Chopin's etudes. Lately, I have noticed that while my interpretative ability is decent, my poor technique infringes on the quality of my playing. I have yet to seriously tackle any of his etudes and will be dedicating the next few months to a course of study on these pieces.

To give some context, I currently play the following pieces:
Beethoven sonata 'Pathetique', 'Appassionata', Op 110
Chopin Ballade 1 and 4, Polonaise A flat, as well as a smattering of waltzes and nocturnes
Schubert Op 90

What etudes would you consider essential/non-essential? Do you have a suggested order for learning the etudes? Any tips of suggestions will be much appreciated!

Lastly, I will be using the schirmer edition for my purposes.

You must be tired of useless comments. If you want technique to improve, make your hands bigger(like the "Great" Wall in China), your fingers thinner and longer (like willow trees), and your body taller (like a giraffe). lol You might be able to do that in Korea, especially since everyone there does plastic surgery. People there are too naturally ugly, so they start worrying about their looks way too much.

But I suggest Hanon studies, and Liszt's books of technical excersizes. And yes, do the Chopin Etudes. I think Edition Peters published a good book for prepatory excersizes for the Chopin Etudes.

[pencilart3]

I'm not at your level but I've played Ballade 3, Pathetique and Moonlight sonatas, Bach italian concerto, a ton of preludes, and I also threw in Etude 25/6 and 10/5. I had one heck of a time getting 25/6 to 3/4 speed.        10/5 was nice though. I might suggest starting with that, if you want to work on crisp, fast notes and improving basic technique. (?) One of the more experienced pianists here could correct me, but that's just what I think 

Good luck!

[amytsuda]

A person who plays an extraordinary Clementi sonatina is better than someone who plays the Ballades poorly.  

This almost sounds like a comment I should receive... I don't know if the OP is like an amateur who just enjoys playing at home and never performs or has no aspiration of becoming one. If so, no worry, enjoy the repertoires you like.

If you are playing Ballade No 1 and 4, you probably know what is your technical weakness. Arpeggios? 6th? 3rd? Octave scales? Here is a great link about explaining technical focus of each of Chopin etudes. Pick the one you need to work on. Mind that they are super difficult, so start very slow and pay attention to avoid every tension. 
https://www.ourchopin.com/analysis/etude.html

My teacher says Chopin Ballade is like a compilation of Chopin etudes, by practicing each segment carefully, it is almost like practicing etudes.

[j_menz]

Technique is not some great amorphous blob that you possess to a certain extent as a whole, It's a lot of separate things. You need to consider what you can do easily, what you struggle with and what you can't do.

A good test is sightreading (assuming that in itself isn't a major weakness). Techniques you "own" you can sightread easily - straight up at fast tempos. Things you struggle with slow you down and things you don't have stop you or make you flounder.

So, what are the main problems you need to address? Are they fundamentals? Do any of the Chopin etudes address them or do you need to look elsewhere?

You'll get the biggest bang for your practice buck by cleaning up  the fundamentals first and then addressing those areas that you currently struggle with. One by one. Whether the Chopin etudes have anything to offer in that regard depends upon what those weaknesses are - there are a lot of things they don't cover.

[pianoworthy]

Please don't let these comments discourage you. If you want to learn the Chopin etudes, sit down and work on them. Judging by your repertoire you should be fully capable of approaching them in an intelligent manner. 

[28843253]

Many thanks for the generous replies!

To elaborate on my situation further, part of what vexes me is a lack of clean execution in my playing such that despite dedicating a fair amount of time to practise, recording a ballade or sonata will invariably turn up wrong notes, smudged passages and questionable phrasing.

Another aspect which I feel the etudes will help with is in the context of improvisation on the piano, whereby a solid grasp of the techniques contained within them would be of great usefulness.

[rubinsteinmad]

Please don't let these comments discourage you. If you want to learn the Chopin etudes, sit down and work on them. Judging by your repertoire you should be fully capable of approaching them in an intelligent manner. 

 

[rubinsteinmad]

Many thanks for the generous replies!

To elaborate on my situation further, part of what vexes me is a lack of clean execution in my playing such that despite dedicating a fair amount of time to practise, recording a ballade or sonata will invariably turn up wrong notes and questionable phrasing.

Another aspect which I feel the etudes will help with is in the context of improvisation on the piano, whereby a solid grasp of the techniques contained within them would be of great usefulness.

Oh, and one of the things advised in the Peter's Edition etude Prepatory Book is to improvise using the difficulties of the Etude. So yeah, improvising boosts your technique. (?) Some other advice is, play backawards, mirror w/ the other hand, strike repeatedly (as in scales, play each note twice), etc. I find it really hard to understand.  I wonder if it even works I've never really used it for Chopin Etudes yet, but I've used them for other pieces. I don't know how useful they are. But if they were stupid, hen I'm sure Edition Peters would publish them with such a unique cover.
The book is called "24 8 Bar Studies on Frederic Chopin".

[rubinsteinmad]

A person who plays an extraordinary Clementi sonatina is better than someone who plays the Ballades poorly.  

Please give me the permission to use flawed logic!
OK, well, no one plays Clementi Sonatinas that extraordinary. So, (now it's time for the flawed logic), you're saying no one is better than someone who plays Ballade poorly? OK, that's not what you said. I'm just being my normal self- a creature with flawed logic

[pencilart3]

Please give me the permission to use flawed logic!
OK, well, no one plays Clementi Sonatinas that extraordinary. So, (now it's time for the flawed logic), you're saying no one is better than someone who plays Ballade poorly? OK, that's not what you said. I'm just being my normal self- a creature with flawed logic

HAHAHA! Yes, that doesn't make much sense. No one is better than someone who plays a ballade poorly. HAHA  Good one.

[outin]

To elaborate on my situation further, part of what vexes me is a lack of clean execution in my playing such that despite dedicating a fair amount of time to practise, recording a ballade or sonata will invariably turn up wrong notes, smudged passages and questionable phrasing.

So are you sure it's not poor practice habits rather than poor technique that is causing your issues?

[28843253]

So are you sure it's not poor practice habits rather than poor technique that is causing your issues?

Well, that may very be the case. In cases such as the 4th ballade in particular, I have experienced diminishing returns and it's a constant struggle to play through the piece without messing up one section or the other. The consecutive thirds in the coda are quite frustrating.

[outin]

Well, that may very be the case. In cases such as the 4th ballade in particular, I have experienced diminishing returns and it's a constant struggle to play through the piece without messing up one section or the other. The consecutive thirds in the coda are quite frustrating.

I think this "diminishing returns" is quite normal for pieces, if you do not regularly employ different practice methods on well learned pieces as well, such as slow practice, small sections, variation on rhythms, score analysis away from the piano and sometimes even back to HS depending on what works for you...

Even my teacher who has the technique to play some of the most difficult pieces in the piano literature told me they don't "stay solid" by just playing through.

[28843253]

I think this "diminishing returns" is quite normal for pieces, if you do not regularly employ different practice methods on well learned pieces as well, such as slow practice, small sections, variation on rhythms, score analysis away from the piano and sometimes even back to HS depending on what works for you...

Even my teacher who has the technique to play some of the most difficult pieces in the piano literature told me they don't "stay solid" by just playing through.

Indeed, I concur with your sentiments. Personally, its more of a feeling of mine that it's about time I started learning some of the etudes!

[michael_c]

To elaborate on my situation further, part of what vexes me is a lack of clean execution in my playing such that despite dedicating a fair amount of time to practise, recording a ballade or sonata will invariably turn up wrong notes, smudged passages and questionable phrasing.

There is no particular etude that will cure those problems. You could learn any number of Chopin's etudes and play them all with wrong notes, smudged passages and questionable phrasing.

To attack the problems you mention, it's not so much a question of what you practice as how you approach whatever you are practicing. Look in detail at the way you practice. Treat your practice room not a a gym where you workout, but as a laboratory where you encounter problems and study them to find the most efficient solutions.

Take the time to analyse what is going on. If you are often messing up a particular passage, take this passage apart. Is your fingering optimal? Are there problems of coordination between the two hands? Are you really conscient of your hand choreography: when does one hand move in towards the black keys while the other moves in the opposite direction, when does a hand stretch, when does it jump? What happens to your posture in the difficult passage? Are there extra tensions in the arms, shoulders or back when you play this passage?

If you notice that a particular passage works fine when you play it on its own, but often goes wrong when you play through the whole piece, the reason is probably that you have accumulated extra tension somewhere in the body. Stop at once, relax and go back to the part of the piece just before the passage that misfired. Do your muscles stay as relaxed as possible while playing this part, or are they already tensing in anticipation of the "difficult bit" to come?

[diomedes]

There is no particular etude that will cure those problems. You could learn any number of Chopin's etudes and play them all with wrong notes, smudged passages and questionable phrasing.

To attack the problems you mention, it's not so much a question of what you practice as how you approach whatever you are practicing. Look in detail at the way you practice. Treat your practice room not a a gym where you workout, but as a laboratory where you encounter problems and study them to find the most efficient solutions.

That's well put in general. When someone asked in another thread how long until they can manage concertos and etudes, i purposefully mentioned mental acuity. That ability to reason, specifically problem solve and understand things quickly is what makes effective practicing. Everyone can learn how to practice better, and thus their technique will improve directly.

I still am critical of my habits and recently rexamined them again. For some time i've been pushing mind over matter as a principle, but hours at the piano are still necessary. I think their efficiency can still be improved.

[28843253]

Your advice Michael is as ever detailed, helpful and most appreciated.

P.S. Any news on the Lindberg Vars. ?

[anamnesis]

That's well put in general. When someone asked in another thread how long until they can manage concertos and etudes, i purposefully mentioned mental acuity. That ability to reason, specifically problem solve and understand things quickly is what makes effective practicing. Everyone can learn how to practice better, and thus their technique will improve directly.

I still am critical of my habits and recently rexamined them again. For some time i've been pushing mind over matter as a principle, but hours at the piano are still necessary. I think their efficiency can still be improved.

I find the best cure had been dedicated time away from the piano to focus on planning as well as real study of the music.  The more I am able to do away, the more efficient I have found myself, but it's taken me years to figure out how to do this. 

[potatopiano]

my reply is down there ⬇️

[potatopiano]

Wow! Learning the Chopin Etudes is a huge feat! My teacher said: "If you can play the Chopin Etudes, then you can play almost anything."
Every etude practices something specific and different (for example, 25/6 practices thirds, 25/10 practices octaves, 10/1 practices arpeggios, etc.). Also, these etudes aren't just technically challenging...they're musically challenging as well.

I believe that you can handle the Etudes though. Look at the repertoire you've got...major Beethoven sonatas and huge Chopin masterpieces! I'm actually surprised that you haven't looked into the Chopin etudes yet.
 
Try looking at the scores for some of them and listen to some recordings. Get ideas of what each Etude is like before choosing which one(s) to work on. I personally recommend that you start with something like 25/2, 25/1. I started with those two and I didn't feel too overwhelmed by it. Start at a slow tempo when you're practicing and make sure everything is in order (notes, rhythm, MUSICALITY, etc.) before speeding up GRADUALLY to a faster tempo. Then you can probably try 25/12, 10/12, 10/4, 10/2, 10/5, 25/11, or 25/6 (which are the ones that I think are especially difficult. Actually, all of them are.)

[pencilart3]

25/12, 10/12, 10/4, 10/2, 10/5, 25/11, or 25/6 (which are the ones that I think are especially difficult.

Definitely not 25/12 or 10/12. 10/5 is just about the easiest. The hardest ones for almost every post I've read are 10/1, 10/2, 10/4, 10/7, 10/8, 10/10, 25/3, 25/6, 25/10, and 25/11.

[suethemoon]

Personally I think 10 7 is rather one of the easier double note etudes, can't really compare to 25 6/8/10

[pencilart3]

Personally I think 10 7 is rather one of the easier double note etudes, can't really compare to 25 6/8/10

have you even played it

didn't think so

[suethemoon]

No need to have a condescending attitude.
Just because one hasn't played doesn't mean they don't know about.

[pencilart3]

No need to have a condescending attitude.
Just because one hasn't played doesn't mean they don't know about.

Yeah, that's true. Sorry. I haven't officially played it either but that is because I can't!   And I guess it's different for everyone. I just think that to play the notes and to play them WELL is extremely difficult, in my opinion. Rare is a good interpretation of this piece.

[suethemoon]

No problem. I guess i was speaking in a generic sense where pianists have higher difficulty to perform other double note etudes (25 6/8/10) in comparison to 10 7.

[anamnesis]

No problem. I guess i was speaking in a generic sense where pianists have higher difficulty to perform other double note etudes (25 6/8/10) in comparison to 10 7.

Strictly speaking, 10 no 7 is mainly easier for 2 reasons.

1. It's length.  The other pieces require a longer period of mental focus. 
2. It's brilliantly constructed as a pedagogical work once you break it down. There's a reason Liszt held it as a model etude. 

In many ways it's the opening gateway to the other double note etudes because you need to transfer many of the same physical skills/coordinations that are far more obvious in this etude than the others. 

Musically speaking; however, this does rank up there in terms of difficulty as a concert piece for an audience.   The other double note etudes are far easier to make comprehensible to an audience.

It's a actually a very intricate contrapuntal piece disguised as an interval etude.  If all you can see and hear are the alternating intervals, you won't get this etude.

It isn't about the alternating double note intervals.  At all.

[pencilart3]

Musically speaking; however, this does rank up there in terms of difficulty as a concert piece for an audience.   The other double note etudes are far easier to make comprehensible to an audience.

That's why I said to play the notes and to play them WELL is very hard.

[suethemoon]

That's why I said to play the notes and to play them WELL is very hard.

That's the same with any piece. Each to its own, as some maybe able to bring out the musical qualities easier than others (more subjective to the pianist). But the technical side of any etude is determined by how longer (generic sense) it takes to bring the notes all together with good sense of dynamics, articulation, awareness of key, voicing etc.
e.g Just to achieve the technique required for 25/6 is more demanding than achieving both technique and musicality of 10/7 from a general standpoint.

[pencilart3]

Ok whatever, let's not beat the dead horse to a pulp.