Adult Learner

[sebastian1]

I am 46 years old and started to learn piano 5 years ago with no practical or theoretical experience, ie: i started totally from scratch.  I take it very seriously (try and practise minimum 2 hours a day which isn't always easy with a family) and have just passed grade 6.  It would be interesting to hear from anyone else who is also an adult late starter.  Does anyone think that at  our age it is possible that we will be able to play high level pieces and get to a grade 8 standard and beyond?  As sometimes I think i'm just fighting an impossible dream.  Any boost to confidence and/or tips on the way forward would be appreciated.   Thank you.

[outin]

There are plenty of us late starters on this forum I think.

I started a few years later than you (my prior experince was irrelevant, there were so many decades between) and my study is a bit different from you, no exams and it's not always very systematic either.

But grade 8 pieces are totally doable if we keep at it!

[sebastian1]

Thank you.   I was of the thinking that past experience is far from irrelevant because i think if you have learnt as a child (even if for a short period) then that makes a massive difference to achieving as an adult.   If this is not necessarily the case then there is hope ....

[outin]

Thank you.   I was of the thinking that past experience is far from irrelevant because i think if you have learnt as a child (even if for a short period) then that makes a massive difference to achieving as an adult.   If this is not necessarily the case then there is hope ....

No, the only thing I may have had to help was the ability to understand notation and that was only because while I abandoned piano at 11, I didn't abandon music altogether. I never really learned to play anything as a child. I think I surpassed the level I was when I quit after about 5 months of adult study.

It would of course be different had I solved the basic issues of playing as a kid, then it probably would be little like riding a bike. But I never did.

It's obvious that we cannot catch those who have been playing for most of their lives, but I'm sure you will achieve a lot in just 10 years if you have a teacher and have good practice habits. 2 years ago I wanted to learn a piece, but found it too much. Now I am learning it and it feels totally doable, just needs a lot of work.

And think of what we can achieve after we retire and have all the time in the world to practice piano

[mjames]

yeah it is, just dont expect to be playing the entire op. 10 and op. 25 etudes, rachmaninov concerti, or gaspard de la nuit, or alkan's etudes etc if those are your ambitions. but yeah, grade 8 is definitely doable.

[josh93248]

I am, for the level of my ambition, a late starter. I began at about 17 and am now 22. I'd say there are a lot of people on here who would be happy to help you and I'll share my 2 cents.

Prodigies get special treatment, training and opportunities. There are an overwhelming amount of concert pianists who were prodigies but also quite a few late starters who accomplished great things. I think this shows that so long as you have some fair intelligence, enough discipline and interest and no serious physical issues, you can, theoretically, master any piece.

I have some ideas about how to go about playing piano. I have a methodology of analysing and fingering every piece I play before even commencing work on it. This approach has been revolutionary for me and if you're curious I'll tell you about it. I also believe in using the muscles of the torso well, almost like singers do, to accomplish most challenging feats at the piano. Also I have a couple other principles like paying as close attention to when a note stops as when it begins, focusing your mind on the fingers as you play, especially to improve articulation and playing creatively rather than slavishly following the score.

I tend to believe the whole challenge with playing piano is a process of first understanding what you play and then programming into your brain and body your solutions to the various problems.

I'd like to know what you hope to achieve at the piano, what your goals are long and short term and what your current repertoire and practice regime is?

[sebastian1]

thanks to all who have replied and Josh thank you very much for offering me your help.

My aim is to just be able to 'play the piano' and play pieces around grade 8 standard (maybe slightly higher) for my own enjoyment and sometimes for others to listen.   In the short term i want to take grade 7 but not for a few years as i want to expand my repetoire and just play for the love of playing piano.  I am well aware that Rach and some of the Liszt and Chopin pieces will not be achievable but thats fine because there is plenty of excellent repetoire at around the grade 8 level.

I am currently looking at an Oscar Peterson piece that was set for grade 6 ABRSM some years ago called Exercise no3, and a current grade 7 piece by Handel (Sonatina in D minor) and Kuhlau's Sonatina in A minor Op 88 (all 3 movements).

When the kids aren't around I practise for a minimum 3 hours a day.  I warm up with Hanon and/or scales.  I look at my new pieces.   I like to spend some time on sightreading (looking at easier pieces) and I also like to keep up old pieces (but my repetoire is very small!!!)  Sometimes I will look at grade 6 music theory.   And I may also spend some time on chords/inversions. 

[josh93248]

thanks to all who have replied and Josh thank you very much for offering me your help.

My aim is to just be able to 'play the piano' and play pieces around grade 8 standard (maybe slightly higher) for my own enjoyment and sometimes for others to listen.   In the short term i want to take grade 7 but not for a few years as i want to expand my repetoire and just play for the love of playing piano.  I am well aware that Rach and some of the Liszt and Chopin pieces will not be achievable but thats fine because there is plenty of excellent repetoire at around the grade 8 level.

I am currently looking at an Oscar Peterson piece that was set for grade 6 ABRSM some years ago called Exercise no3, and a current grade 7 piece by Handel (Sonatina in D minor) and Kuhlau's Sonatina in A minor Op 88 (all 3 movements).

When the kids aren't around I practise for a minimum 3 hours a day.  I warm up with Hanon and/or scales.  I look at my new pieces.   I like to spend some time on sightreading (looking at easier pieces) and I also like to keep up old pieces (but my repetoire is very small!!!)  Sometimes I will look at grade 6 music theory.   And I may also spend some time on chords/inversions. 

That's a simple and certainly a doable aim. It seems like you're well and truly coming along as well, with the level of practice you do and your repertoire.

I play fairly basic pieces at the moment (more advanced ones are coming) but I try to play them really well. There can be a lot of benefit from playing some pieces "below" your level (and trying to go beyond sight-reading them) rather than working always "at" or even beyond your level, it allows you to quickly master the technical issues and start working on true refinement. Just an idea for you.

I looked up the Kuhlau, it's actually rather good I'm not familiar with your rep so much though, perhaps you can show me a thing or two about why you chose them actually.

I should probably mention that I'm Australian, our grading system is slightly different... but I think I get what level you're at and what level you want to get to. Don't worry too much about "levels" though, I have found some wild discrepancies in actual difficulty compared to the reputed difficulty... that also might be my particular approach though, it tends to make certain challenges very easy.

I have an odd theory that technical exercises are unnecessary, especially if you practice your music a certain way and develop your technique that way. You probably get some benefit from Hanon, I'm just not sure if you wouldn't get the same benefit taking that time and using it to play music... But, that's another one of my weird ideas haha. It kind of goes with my total fingering idea, you can use fingering to understand and defeat any technical problems rather than "copy pasting" your generic technical work onto any difficulties.

It's good that you are looking at theory, it can really help, I actually am working on composition a bit... maybe that's something you might do? Anyway, good luck!

[sebastian1]

Thanks again for your time   to give you an indication of UK grading    i learnt Mozart Sonata in C (K545) for my grade 6 exam (one of 3 x pieces from different era's).

I'm learning the Oscar Peterson for some 'light relief' !!

Totally agree with your 2 points - ie: learning pieces of a lower level but to a good standard and also questioning Hanon.   I had a battle with my teacher because I said the same as you - ie: that i would prefer to develop technique and finger strength etc whilst playing pieces but I quite enjoy the Hanon now from a warming up point of view

[josh93248]

In my experience, fingers don't really get stronger, they get smarter and your body gets better at putting energy into them... I don't want to dictate to you and your teacher is your teacher... but still, I'd say that if ever you want to, you can cut down on Hanon and focus more on music.

Actually I'm curious to know what you'd think of the thread I started about fingering. It's under "Performance" listed as "Completely Fingering Pieces"

Oh and I'm working on K 545 myself, wonderful, simple music isn't it?

[outin]

In my experience, fingers don't really get stronger, ...

In fact they must, IF they are weak and unstable by nature, as they sometimes are. It's just not weightlifting kind of strength, but rather stability that comes from better muscle control and balance. Many people have issues with muscle balance, weak muscles get tense because they cannot keep up with the stronger ones. I have seen a huge improvement in my weak fingers during the last two years. But I've used my own tailored exercises for specific problems instead of Hanon or such. I could only ever memorize the first two of Hanon anyway 

[josh93248]

I would clarify that The muscles that control fingers CAN get stronger but fingers are really controlled by tendons linking them to muscles in the hands and arms. I don't see why we really need to bother with technical exercises so much though, surely if you just work on the scaly passages and arpeggio passages in real pieces a bit as well as make sure to pursue evenness and control in the pieces you play, you should be fine.

[bronnestam]

I'd say, forget about your age. The fact that you are worried about it, creates difficulties that you don't need ... Just keep on working and see what will happen.

Being an adult beginner has a lot of advantages. As an adult you are mature, you have (hopefully) overcome all the agonies from adolescence and growing up to be independent. You have life experience, you have 8hopefully) learned how to learn, you can work methodically and with a perspective. And HOPEFULLY you don't feel you have to "prove" your qualities all the time, you know you have a worth as a human even though you have your bad days at the piano.

Being an adult beginner also has some disadvantages. No, it is not about "stiff neural synapses" and all that nonsense, it is not like a window is shut with a boom when you reach the "mature" age of 14 and suddenly you cannot learn anything properly - it might be true when it comes to learning languages, it seems that adult learners have a hard time getting rid of their foreign accent when they speak. It might be true when it comes to olympic gymnastics. But piano playing is neither, so don't worry. But keep in mind that adults sometimes tend to be rather ... stubborn. They often question every new idea, they almost automatically activate some resistance when the teacher has opinions that differ from their own. (Yeah yeah, I am also an adult!) "You think so? No ... I am not sure you are right here ..." I think young students better have the ability to absorb new knowledge with a more open mind, because being critical is a part of the human development.

So, I'd say it is not about age at all, but about attitude. Which, on the other hand, is good news. Your age, measured as loops around the sun, is something you cannot affect. Your attitude, however, is something you can always work with. I think that if you are prepared to be very humble, very open-minded, yet also very methodical and not haunted by some disbeliefs about "age limits", you can achieve just about anything you like. And, as always, you also have to realize that there is a price to pay, and it's you who decide if you like to pay or not.

I am also a rebounder, I will be 50 next year. I took lessons during my teen years. Even though I got some acknowledgement from my teacher, I was rather lazy and rather occupied by other stuff, so I never got very far. The most difficult piece I ever played was Clair de Lune. Then I went to the university, and from there I went on with job career, partner, children ... the usual stuff. My piano playing was practically in hibernation for nearly three decades. Sometimes I made desperate efforts to play again, but I was always disappointed and frustrated to notice that I was so bad.

Just a few years ago I decided to go serious again, though. And I did. I almost had to start from scratch again, and I think it took more than a year before I even was up to my former "top level" ... I also had to fight some muscular injuries, caused by bad technique and too much enthusiasm, an perhaps also a body which was not 20 anymore. (I seem to be predisposed to muscular and joint issues, it obviously runs in my family     )

Well, now it has been three more years and now I have surpassed my former lever by far, and I learn pieces I could not even DREAM of learning before. Why? Because I have learned to practice effectively, I have clear ideas on how the music should sound and I know what I'm doing - at least much better than in my younger years. And most of all, I have realized that practicing is not just about sitting at the piano and trying to press as many keys as possible every day.

Practicing, to me, could be about sitting in an armchair and read the notes. It could be about walking the dogs and at the same time plan my next practicing session, or that particular bar in that Beethoven sonata that is ringing in my head. Or about listening to other pianists. There are periods when I do not have much time to practice because I am self employed and I have many issues concerning my family and my private life. OK, so the piano has to wait. And then I am back and keep on working. I have no idea what "grade" I am at and frankly I don't care either, I have no idea "what to do" with this hobby of mine. What I know, is that I love this music and I love to create it with my own hands, and I think it is fun to learn new pieces and take on new challenges.

I do technical exercises when I think they are called for, but otherwise I skip them. My lodestars are "motivation" and "mindful practice". I believe it is harmful to practice mindlessly, to work through this and that many exercises just for the sake of it - if you do an exercise, or a scale, then you must pay full attention to WHAT you are doing, and WHY you are doing it. It is not llike aerobics when you can do your daily 20 push-ups or your daily run around the block while your mind is somewhere else, and you still get the full benefit of your efforts.

The classical advice from Liszt was: "think ten times, play once". I believe he was very right.

[outin]

I would clarify that The muscles that control fingers CAN get stronger but fingers are really controlled by tendons linking them to muscles in the hands and arms. I don't see why we really need to bother with technical exercises so much though, surely if you just work on the scaly passages and arpeggio passages in real pieces a bit as well as make sure to pursue evenness and control in the pieces you play, you should be fine.

I know how the fingers work

You obviously haven't experienced hypermobile joints... some fingers can be so weak they cannot be held straight without any extra weigh except for the palm. Those often need exercising both at and away from the piano to gain enough strength (=stability) to play anything more demanding. It's much more efficient to tackle the specific issue than rely on the repertoire to fix it (which oftens creates shortcuts and risks tension/RSI instead of a longterm solution).

Those who don't have such issues of course don't need to work on them and in general I am all for repertoire instead or finger exercises.

[josh93248]

You make a fair point outin. Perhaps I should say that unless you have a particular problem that can only be solved with some form of exercise, doing none or little technical exercise is an option for those, who like me, can't stand the bloody stuff!

[outin]

You make a fair point outin. Perhaps I should say that unless you have a particular problem that can only be solved with some form of exercise, doing none or little technical exercise is an option for those, who like me, can't stand the bloody stuff!

I cannot stand them either which is why I make my own...Improvised stuff, I would never write them down

[dogperson]

I cannot stand them either which is why I make my own...Improvised stuff, I would never write them down

Once I identified some consistent problems, I even asked my teacher if I should use Hanon/Czerny.  the response was 'no', we would use the repertoire itself and exercises using the actual repertoire passages.  And we are:  staccato playing to improve evenness, as well as others.  This works for me and I was grateful she didn't see the need for exercises written as exercises../

FYI.  I am a returning adult with 40 years of inactivity-- one year back. 

[brogers70]

Definitely not an impossible dream Quite realistic, I think. I started at 40, without ever having played the piano, though I'd played a lot of classical guitar and done a lot of choral singing. 16 years later I'm playing some later Haydn sonatas, c minor, d minor, D major, Ab major, Eb major P&F from WTC, some of the late Brahms Intermezzi, all stuff that I think you would count as Grade 8.

It was extremely helpful to find a good teacher. By which I mean a teacher who will take an adult learner seriously and teach you technique just as though you were a kid hoping to go to a conservatory. For the first 10 years I tried to go it on my own, just working very, very hard, and I ended up with a very tense technique and no ability to play in front of anybody else. My teacher helped me get a much better technique by taking 6 months and going back to zero, doing very simple exercises, and easy music.

The thing I'd say about technical exercises is that when I was on my own running through the first two books of Hanon every day, it did me no good at all. But now I'm working on Cramer Etudes and Berens studies for the left hand with my teacher and I practice technical exercises completely differently. No more running through them mindlessly over and over as though learning piano was like getting in shape for a marathon. Instead she shows me exactly what movement each etude is supposed to teach and I just work until the movement becomes relaxed and easy. What transfers from exercises to real repertoire is not that you've done something just like a particular passage from the repertoire in one of your exercises, but that you've learned how to do a lot of different sorts of movements easily and without tension.

Sorry to run on a bit. Your goal is absolutely doable, and even before you get to grade 8, there's lots of great music to play along the way.

[sebastian1]

Huge thank you to both brogers70 and bronnestam

have read both of your posts more than once with interest    just what i wanted to hear

no more 'age' hang ups!   i'm just going to get on with it and enjoy .... 

[dcstudio]

I also believe it is quite realistic.   I am not a late starter...more like a lifer...  I taught for years and at one time I used to believe I could pick out the talented ones from the get go...but it's not true.   Some who start of like gangbusters fizzle out and just stop getting it...others who have no sense of rhythm, no sense of musicianship --who seem like they are never going to make it can suddenly have this epiphany type experience and all of the sudden they just skyrocket up level after level.

I started at 4 and I will be 51 next week...  When I hit about 35 years old I figured this was as far as I was ever going to be able to go...  my abilities had solidified and I had better just learn to live with what I could do...  I was wrong again...  I found that making a serious effort and reevaluating some things really blasted me up a level or two as well.

I am a jazzer, too and I have played professionally off and on for more than 20 years...  but I always felt like my classical side could stand some improving... as most jazzers do...  anyway, I found I was capable of the high end rep...and the only thing that had held me back was believing I was not going to get any better--well that and the fact that I never actually tried...lol

I also had a student who started at 70 with zero music ever in her life.   Her husband had died a few years back and she was looking to fill the time.   It was slow and painful and took a couple of years but she got it and started really improving...  that was cool to see.

so yes...very realistic to play

if you have visions that you are going to make a career like lang lang and we are going to see you on stage with smoke machines and disco balls while you play La Campanella ... and you started at 40...then you should probably seek professional help   

[louispodesta]

thanks to all who have replied and Josh thank you very much for offering me your help.

My aim is to just be able to 'play the piano' and play pieces around grade 8 standard (maybe slightly higher) for my own enjoyment and sometimes for others to listen.   In the short term i want to take grade 7 but not for a few years as i want to expand my repetoire and just play for the love of playing piano.  I am well aware that Rach and some of the Liszt and Chopin pieces will not be achievable but thats fine because there is plenty of excellent repetoire at around the grade 8 level.

I am currently looking at an Oscar Peterson piece that was set for grade 6 ABRSM some years ago called Exercise no3, and a current grade 7 piece by Handel (Sonatina in D minor) and Kuhlau's Sonatina in A minor Op 88 (all 3 movements).

When the kids aren't around I practise for a minimum 3 hours a day.  I warm up with Hanon and/or scales.  I look at my new pieces.   I like to spend some time on sightreading (looking at easier pieces) and I also like to keep up old pieces (but my repetoire is very small!!!)  Sometimes I will look at grade 6 music theory.   And I may also spend some time on chords/inversions. 

In that the most notable change in piano matriculation in the last ten years has been the number of so-called " Adult Beginners," I state the following, personal opinion, analysis: 

1)  Practice regimen/technique must be scheduled in your day, minute by minute.  Some days you have it in you to be aggressive with your schedule, and some days, you defer to other things.

2)  There is no reason, with the proper instruction, that you cannot play any piece you want to.  I am 64 (08/02/1951) and I spent two hours on the Rach 2nd today.  The Schumann Concerto is almost ready, and there is much more.

The ossification of the bones in your body was complete when you were in your late 20's, and that is not my opinion!

So, please forget all of this nonsense of what you can't do, and instead focus on what you want to do and the proper steps to get there accordingly.

Please do not hesitate (never any fee) to contact me by PM to further your interest.

[dcstudio]

3 hours a day...that's pretty ambitious     

asking for help online:

there's lots of help online that's for sure...  some of it is quite reputable but there are also a lot of self-proclaimed "gurus" out there who have never taught a piano lesson and can't really play themselves but they really get off on pretending they are "master" teachers.  BS is kind of like that...but at least he went to Eastman and actually has some credentials...  my point is be wary of those who claim to know it all..