teaching yourself? what do you think you need help with?

[dcstudio]

Hi guys,


I am very interested in the troubles facing those who cannot afford a teacher... or do not have a way to take lessons... or for whatever reason--are teaching themselves.  This seems to be the new trend... the wave of the future of teaching..so I would appreciate your opinions and input on this very much...  

please answer freely--I am not looking for right and wrong or to tell you to go take lessons..  at this point I am just trying to broaden my horizons a bit... so please tell me what you think .


How long have you been playing?
Are you happy with your progress?
What do you find most difficult to understand?
How are you going about teaching yourself?  method book? youtube?
Do you adhere to a certain routine?
What would you ask a teacher to help you with if you had one?

Thank you so much!

[rdf_mx1]

Hi,

I should perhaps start by stating that i'm from a country where we don't really have music lessons in school programs (which is, to say the least, unfortunate!).I took some organ and guitar lessons with popular music teacher as a child but lost motivation in my early teens, i believed this helped my ear/listening though.

I started playing with bands when i was around 16, then enrolled in music major (popular music & jazz) around 19, spent 5 years correcting bad habits, learning jazz theory, composition & arranging, etc.  I'm in my early 30s now so i've been playing properly for around 13-14 years, only around 6 of those with a teacher (not the same one though)

I am not happy with my progress because in my country there's no grading system or anything like that, and many teachers have many different approaches, or technique schools, so it was really confusing for the first years, some would say use the fingers while others would say use the arm-weight method, Hanon would say lift the fingers and so on. Took me a long time to realize what technique really is! I just banged the right notes at the right times for years with wrong volumes and awful articulation!

Most difficult to understand for me is technique, specially without a teacher! My theory is spot on because i can read a book (i have), and understand concepts, etc, but the physical sensations and the level of muscle control neede for the piano is hard to explain with just words. One has to really feel. and LISTEN and i benefit a lot from right/wrong examples.

I've played professionaly for the last perhaps five years, but it's not witihin my grasp (so it was never my intention) to play concert level, i started too late! But i like to play jazz and make accompainments for singers, i've played in theatre musical as well.

I do adhere to a routine consisting of 6 x 25min sessions, i work on repertoire for 3 of those sessions, 1 chords, 1 jazz repertoire, and 1 sight reading (grand staff). I have done so this year, last year i was practicing around an hour because i was giving harmony lessons! I am totally focused now.

What would you ask a teacher to help you with if you had one?
Well my goal is always to incorporate technique learnt with classical piano, to my jazz imprvising, I think it really improves my sound! Better phrasing and dynamics control, it just makes it easier for me to express in a solo So i would love a teacher who will help me with that goal. I know one but he is on full schedule right now unfortunately.

I hope i have answered all your questions!

EDIT: I've been exposed to some new concepts (for me at least) in Fundamentals of Piano Practice, so i'm reading that for creating my own exercises, etc,  if i have doubts i do try to watch a video of someone doing it right!

[roncesvalles]

I have been playing for almost three years, just coming on one year with an actual piano, although I have not had much of a routine until recently.   I am a science student with an intense courseload (physics for science majors, calculus III, organic chemistry, and an honors class on Dante), so having a teacher really won't be feasible until possibly next summer (maybe in the spring, depending on what classes are available).   A teacher is something I'd really like, however, because I've had something of a technical breakthrough as of late.

Are you happy with your progress?
Yes and no.   My lack of a routine (I've often just improvised rather than learning new repertoire or practicing) has limited my progress.  This summer I've worked on my technique a lot, however, and I am starting to feel a fluency, although I have room to improve in every facet of playing.

What do you find most difficult to understand?
Probably the mechanics of playing.   How to hold my hands, how to press down a key (I tend to "caress" the keys with a pulling motion).  Rhythm is probably my weakest ability, since I dislike counting (except, oddly, for a Sorabji Etude I studied last year with a 3 against 5 polyrhythm) and metronomes.  I want precision in my playing, but that is probably the one thing I put off the most.   I also do some eccentric fingering, tending towards the thumb over technique or otherwise sometimes contorting to avoid hand motion(for Invention number four I finger the first measure 12345415 etc., which is more comfortable to me and capable of higher velocity than changing hand position).  

How are you going about teaching yourself?  method book? youtube?
This summer I've really simplified the material I've worked on, because I basically started out playing intermediate material (the first pieces that I ever learned were Chopin Op. 63 nos 2 and 3, and Bach's C minor prelude from the WTC book 1).   This overreaching of repertoire caused a lot of stress and a lot of pieces not being finished due to technical inability and frustration.   So I've focused on working on easy stuff, with the extra benefit that I'm starting to be able to sight read.   Bach Little Preludes and Inventions, Mozart, Chopin Mazurkas, Waltzes, and selected preludes, some of the easier Scriabin, plus more modern and contemporary repertoire.   I feel that having such a diverse repertoire serves me more than the typical method book (my partner went to university for piano performance and still has childhood Suzuki books)--I feel like I'm learning a broader range of things than I would be by playing Kuhlau and Clementi with my Bach and Mozart.   Since my end goal is to play 20th/21st century stuff, predominantly (although with a capability of playing more traditional stuff, to not completely drive my partner and neighbors mad), learning to sight read music utilizing more accidentals with more diverse spelling is useful to me.  

Do you adhere to a certain routine?
This summer I've created a technical routine for myself.  With the coming semester, I'll likely have to only do that particular routine on weekends and reserve weekdays for sightreading, however.  My routine this summer has been pretty intense by my standards.   Daily I:
Play every scale including the chromatic, hands separate and hands together, 4 octaves, legato and staccato.
Play every basic arpeggio in every key, 4 octaves, hands together, usually staccato.  The scales and arpeggios are becoming second nature to me, so I'll soon move into contrary motion, inversions, seventh chords, augmented arpeggios, etc.
Do five finger patterns up and down every key staccato (like CDEFG, DEFGA, going to the next octave and back down).
I also practice repeated notes with various fingerings, and trills (with different finger positions, with one finger on an adjacent black key, one finger on a black key a whole tone away, both on white keys, etc. with every two finger combination...I'm working on being able to do four finger trills).
A few days a week I work on independence exercises from Liszt's Technical Studies.
A few days a week I also work on polyphonic scales in various keys (playing two scales, with different note values, with a single hand, usually by subdividing the hand into units like 1 and 2 with one voice and 345 with another or 123 with one and 45 with another).
A couple days a week I practice motifs from Etudes by Chopin, Liszt, and Blanchet, to work on particular problems.  A couple days a week I also work on cadences and chord inversions from the Liszt exercises, and I also try my hands at thumb over technique scales in various keys.
Sometimes I play three finger scales with my left hand to improve the fluidity of my 123 fingers, and sometimes I play chromatic scales with 2,3,4 and 3,4,5 (or three note patterns ascending and descending).

Then in the evening I play actual music.    This is not a routine that I'm going to continue forever--I'm just working hard on improving my technique at this point, because I will only have limited time in the coming months to do so, so while the majority of my playing is drill-work right now, the majority in a few weeks time is likely going to be sight-reading.


What would you ask a teacher to help you with if you had one?
The mechanics of playing.   Fingering suggestions.   Little tips on how to get better, or on what to place more of my focus.   A lot of what I want from a teacher is the little things, the details I may miss or of which I may not be aware.   There's enough information out there that I can get the broader picture, but much of what I want to know can only come from someone with experience and first-hand knowledge.

[dcstudio]

Thank you so much for answering my questions

I have no answers for these issues or anything... in fact it sounds like you are both very advanced and have a very broad understanding of music.   I am not surprised that it is technique which is the issue here.   Honestly, maybe I should have a teacher, too--I don't know though...I can be pretty arrogant. lol.   After music school and all the lessons I've had and all that I have taught...  and I play professionally, too..   I would have to get a pretty expensive teacher... which I am sure would be well worth the investment.

so basically if we could figure out a  way to teach technique through a book or a video or something other than one on one instruction ... we could all make a million dollars..  technique for  me..has always been one of my strong suits for some reason.  My weaknesses are that I don't think I sight-read  well enough...  and my classical rep has been pretty stagnant for a while.  Hard to focus on that when you are being paid to play something else.

I am a jazzer, too.   It's always amazed me at the rift between jazz and classical.   How those of us who play jazz seem to feel something is missing from our classical side--and most of the die-hard classical pianists are fascinated by what we can do.  Proficient improv is so rare...at least in my experience.   I agree completely that the secret lies somewhere in integrating the two sides together and playing the classical rep with the same freedom of expression that we use in jazz...  and allowing our fingers to fly through it like we do when we improvise

hmmmmmmm...    there must be a way.

[rdf_mx1]

You're welcome! 

I guess it makes sense that technique is the major issue with distance learning. Probably because one can't write wrist movement and whatnot on a score? In any case one must know the movements beforehand, and when and how to use them properly! But yeah, there must be a way! And it would certainly be beneficial not having the distance barrier and being able to learn technique from anyone around the world.

I actually feel like a total beginner (at least technique-wise), i mean i was able to do this huge jazz chords and move my fingers fast but with no legato control and many unwanted accents in strange places within a phrase. I was stressing my hands a lot. When i was in college i actually had surgery in my LH because i stressed it a lot with octaves, etc while playing latin music. I was like 4 months out

A year and a half ago i got tired of hitting walls so i went back for around three months to one of my college teachers and he re-taught me all hand motions,and how it was suppposed to sound. It was really hard but i think i'm playing better with much better control, and i make a lot less mistakes! I could not keep up with payments but i hope to continue soon. There's so much room for improvement and i really like piano! I guess what i do best is improvising and on the fly chord substitutions/arranging. You should see me sight read! I can't do 1 bar barroque haha I can read lead sheets though, so i guess i'm used to sight reading monophonic! I'm working on my grand staff reading though!

And i agree, there's definitely a rift. It should not be. I believe both sides can benefit a lot from studying the other one, but a day has only 24 hours right? Haha. The jazz solos i love the most, are perhaps not that fast but with a special care for tone and phrasing, they should really speak with full sentences , not just some scale runs.

I really hope you find a way to teach technique through video or book it would be a lot helpful!

[dcstudio]

well heck...if we are talking about leadsheets I am a monster reader...lol....

yeah monophonic reading is wonderful...   all those sax players and horn players... reading one note at a time...and their instrument is sooooooooooooo hard...lol



thing about technique is everyone's hands are different...  what's most efficient for my hands might not be for yours...
I was lucky though...and blessed with the long tapering slender fingers that seem to just naturally fit on piano keys.  Technique came very naturally ...  sight-reading was another issue.   lol...

and I sight-read well...   I just saw this professor a year or two ago walk in and play for a violinist on his master's recital--the  accompanist he had prepared with was sick--  this was some brutal stuff and this guy sight-read it all...  there was new music being played... it was actually sight-reading in the true sense of the word...  and he was amazing...   the pianist and the violinist...  but damn...  the pianist had never seen it before...  and he nailed it.

so I can sight read... but not like that.

[keypeg]

Technique definitely.  No, it would not be something as precise as moving one's hand just so, re: everyone's hand being different, but rather, there are some general principles.  For example if you sit at a good height and distance from the piano, then things will tend to "fall into place", while if you don't, they won't.  If you  aim for good sound plus comfort and start with a relaxed natural hand and do not stiffen any joints, you will probably go in the right direction.  BUT - how can you tell if you are actually doing any of those things?  Generally you can't -- I couldn't.  So you can get caught in a loop trying over and over again, and it's like spinning your wheels in a rut that gets ever deeper.

I'd say, however, that what is worse is following a poor teacher who messes up your technique, or following dubious on-line advice, or thinking you are following advice which is actually correct but you're not doing what you think you're doing.  It seems that methodically entrenched wrong technique may be harder to undo than the bits and pieces that you have cobbled together at random.  At least that has been my experience.

I am wondering though, with the many resources on-line, whether self-teaching is actually as purely self-teaching as it once was.  Aren't there gray areas now?  There are on-line courses, and some of them even offer feedback by the teachers if you supply a video - sometimes for a small or larger fee.  This is not the regular in-person weekly lesson, but something in between.

[adodd81802]

Mines a strange one. I start piano quite young, and could play better than my grades. my first piece I ever learnt while in grade 2 was Chopin's op 9 no 2. This wasn't so much from good teaching, but my desperation to play the pieces I loved the sound of, and at the time of all things I had one of those keyboards that had lights on with song lessons where it would wait until you pressed the right notes.

I learnt the piece hands separately and from there moved onto Chopin's Minute Waltz. Weirdly the combination of these two songs allowed me to excel in my performance ability requiring good co-ordination and dexterity.

Due to lack of funding I got up to Grade 4 and stopped my lessons. 10 years on, I was casually learning pieces as a hobby pianist without any real thought towards my performance, fingering etc, i learnt how it felt right.

I hit a speed bump on a song I was trying to learn and I realised no matter how slow i tried, no matter how much i practiced, i couldn't bring it up to speed.

It lead me to re-evaluate my whole ability on the piano and really identify how i learnt and used logical steps to dramatically improve this. In hitting that speed bump i realised

- I played songs way too quickly when learning them, causing a lot of hiccups in my play, which never bothered me playing casually but made me realise when playing in public just how little i knew a song
- i played songs that I enjoyed and used fingering that worked for my ability rather than the correct fingers for the piece
- I tried to quickly to memorise a piece without really learning the piece causing to some extent made up phrases and dynamics that i'd either heard or hadn't really remembered

I actually took the plunge and went back to a piano teacher. I played a piece for her with the same similar hiccups and sat back disappointed. now on paper I'm grade 3-4 and about 10 years out of date. She said I played a post Grade 8 piece and played it very well, but in those few minutes identified all my flaws above that it took me 10 years to really realise and that was really a light bulb moment.

I don't believe there is anything wrong with self teaching because if by luck you have adopted the correct practice method and been strict with how you learn then you could in theory play pretty damn good. But you can't really be your own best critique and for me personally the point of a teacher is not to teach you what you know, but to show you what you don't.

I've cut out the big pieces i've learnt, picked up some Czerny, some scales and i'm booking my Grade 5 next year. I don't feel demotivated, i don't feel time wasted it's simply a moment when you realise you can push them goals further yet by making a few minimal fundamental changes to the way in which you approach learning.

In answer to the questions by the way.

i've been playing since I was around 6 on and off but took official lessons at 16. i'm now 26. I usually used youtube, or hearing pieces to associate them with the music, as my reading wasn't THAT great in the past. What I find most difficult consistent playing, I would probably even get twinkle twinkle wrong if somebody asked me to play it 20 times in a row. My routine started very consistent and then fell apart when it became more a hobby and I would say I am happy with the progress I have made but wish I would have had more professional input to iron out mistakes early on.

[dcstudio]

although not everyone agrees... Youtube can be really incredible learning resource.   I used it when I was teaching...   

with so many people taking up the piano and teaching themselves--it seems there must be a logical and efficient way to meet their needs.

there is so much musical misinformation and so much misconception about teaching piano that it seems like it would impossible for an inexperienced beginner to even have the tools necessary to find the instruction they need online..  it would have to be crapshoot at best... only the game of craps has FAR better odds...

Youtube is awesome if you already know what you are looking for...

I went a year without lessons when I was 9 because we had moved away.    I remember being so frustrated because I really did not know how to continue on without my teacher.   There was no internet then though...  maybe if I had Youtube when I was 9 things would have been different.

I am so old school, though... the only synth around when I started taking lessons was a Moog...lol.   

gotta get with the times.

[louispodesta]

although not everyone agrees... Youtube can be really incredible learning resource.   I used it when I was teaching...   

with so many people taking up the piano and teaching themselves--it seems there must be a logical and efficient way to meet their needs.

there is so much musical misinformation and so much misconception about teaching piano that it seems like it would impossible for an inexperienced beginner to even have the tools necessary to find the instruction they need online..  it would have to be crapshoot at best... only the game of craps has FAR better odds...

Youtube is awesome if you already know what you are looking for...

I went a year without lessons when I was 9 because we had moved away.    I remember being so frustrated because I really did not know how to continue on without my teacher.   There was no internet then though...  maybe if I had Youtube when I was 9 things would have been different.

I am so old school, though... the only synth around when I started taking lessons was a Moog...lol.   

gotta get with the times.

As a classically trained pianist/social activist philosopher( "lol, Imogene, and all your other millennium carp), I weigh in on your argument for self-teaching, which I have commented  on in another thread.

The basic state of piano pedagogy, in terms of the beginning student, in my well thought out opinion, is, and has never been, empirically quantified, qualified, and/or definded.

Most every piano teacher teaches their student, essentially the way their piano teacher taught  them!  When one takes a piano (1 hour) piano pedagogy course in music school in order to get their Music Ed. Degree, it is never taught by a member of the regular piano performance faculty:   go figure.

So, in terms of the OP's predicate, it should be first recognized that she is a real musician.  You contact her, specify your function, and then she can show up and do the gig.  Is that a big deal?

In terms of piano pedagogy, it is the only deal when it comes to online, teacher taught or a combination (reference my prior cite, another post, of Dr. Robert Freeman).

She is a working pianist, with a significant classical pedigree.  That means that what she takes for granted in terms of musical skills does not necessarily translate into the future of piano pedagogy, but her personal insight and experience is most paramount. 

As a classically trained pianist/social activist philosopher( "lol, Imogene, and all your other millennium carp), I weigh in on your argument for self-teaching, which I have commented  on in another thread.

The basic state of piano pedagogy, in terms of the beginning student, in my well thought out opinion, is, and has never been, empirically quantified, qualified, and/or definded.

Most every piano teacher teaches their student, essentially the way their piano teacher taught  them!  When one takes a piano (1 hour) piano pedagogy course in music school in order to get their Music Ed. Degree, it is never taught by a member of the regular piano performance faculty:   go figure.

So, in terms of the OP's predicate, it should be first recognized that she is a real musician.  You contact her, specify your function, and then she can show up and do the gig.  Is that a big deal?

In terms of piano pedagogy, it is the only deal when it comes to online, teacher taught or a combination (reference my prior cite, another post, of Dr. Robert Freeman).

She is a working pianist, with a significant classical pedigree.  That means that what she takes for granted in terms of musical skills does not necessarily translate into the future of piano pedagogy, but her personal insight and experience is most paramount. 

[keypeg]

it would have to be crapshoot at best...

Re: the crap shoot of misperceptions etc. that the newbie faces.  That is where forums like this one come in, where more experienced people can advise and trade experiences and knowledge.  In fact, it's also a crap shoot for finding a decent teacher, especially for adults, for various reasons.

[keypeg]

I went a year without lessons when I was 9 because we had moved away.    I remember being so frustrated because I really did not know how to continue on without my teacher.   There was no internet then though...  maybe if I had Youtube when I was 9 things would have been different.

The first time I had lessons, which was on a different instrument, I ran into problems after about a year.  I did a lot of searching for answers on-line at the time.  The difference is that almost everything then was in the form of still photos, drawings, and verbal descriptions.  In the respect, things have improved.  Technique involves motion.  I ended up looking "picture perfect" form-wise, which actually made it harder for teachers to figure out what had gone wrong.  I remember consulting one teacher in person who sighed, "I wish most of my students' left hand looked like yours." when in fact I was having major problems in that area.

[louispodesta]

Re: the crap shoot of misperceptions etc. that the newbie faces.  That is where forums like this one come in, where more experienced people can advise and trade experiences and knowledge.  In fact, it's also a crap shoot for finding a decent teacher, especially for adults, for various reasons.

No way Jose, (and my mothers maiden name is De Leon).

My coach is Dr. Thomas Mark, a former Taubman practice coach, and a Certified Alexander Technique Coach.

Therefore, do you not dare, absent a supporting  empirical citation, that it is happenstance that one, any where in the world, cannot find a proper teacher.  And, your inference (stated incorrectly), by logic, is not just by chance.

[keypeg]

I literally cannot understand what you wrote. I was responding to dcpiano, btw, who had written about crap shoot.  Perhaps she, having been addressed, will understand my response to her.  Unfortunately I cannot understand yours.

[dcstudio]

Therefore, do you not dare, absent a supporting  empirical citation, that it is happenstance that one, any where in the world, cannot find a proper teacher.  And, your inference (stated incorrectly), by logic, is not just by chance.

I am sorry.... but you confuse me.  . Maybe I am just not awake enough to comprehend your sentence structure... can you please dummy it down just a bit for me so I can better understand you.... this is a sincere request with no satirical inference...  please help me to understand.

So, in terms of the OP's predicate, it should be first recognized that she is a real musician.  You contact her, specify your function, and then she can show up and do the gig.  Is that a big deal?

In terms of piano pedagogy, it is the only deal when it comes to online, teacher taught or a combination (reference my prior cite, another post, of Dr. Robert Freeman).

She is a working pianist, with a significant classical pedigree.  That means that what she takes for granted in terms of musical skills does not necessarily translate into the future of piano pedagogy, but her personal insight and experience is most paramount.  

  Thanks Louis    that's nice of you to say... I think... like I said I never know with you.

I am just thinking about creating a resource to pass on what I know.  Not a method or a course...just something that will teach the skills I possess which are rarely, if ever, taught in formal lessons.  I want to pass on the chops you need to be able sit down at a piano in a room full people and entertain them in a way that doesn't require that they sit at attention while you dazzle them with prepared pieces.   Not that I am in any way trying to negate the significance of that... I would just like to offer a viable alternative and teach people how to bring what's in their ears...out of their hands--and to understand what they are playing while they do that.  That is so rare among trained pianists... at least in my experience.

[keypeg]

I am just thinking about creating a resource to pass on what I know.  Not a method or a course...just something that will teach the skills I possess which are rarely, if ever, taught in formal lessons.  I want to pass on the chops you need to be able sit down at a piano in a room full people and entertain them in a way that doesn't require that they sit at attention while you dazzle them with prepared pieces.   Not that I am in any way trying to negate the significance of that... I would just like to offer a viable alternative and teach people how to bring what's in their ears...out of their hands--and to understand what they are playing while they do that.  That is so rare among trained pianists... at least in my experience.

I am glad that you explained this now, because I didn't catch your purpose first time round.  I thought you were addressing people who, for example, were not able to have access to teachers and were forced to teach themselves, and asking how they coped.  I had been in that situation for a few years.  That said, I didn't quite know how to answer.  The only thing I could do was concur with the general idea that physical playing appears to be the most elusive.

Now - trying to understand - are you planning to create a resource for self-taught students to meet those identified needs?  They would still be self-teaching but accessing the things you have in mind?

When I rereard your post, I also have the impression that you already have some things in mind that you would like to pass on.  In that case, it would be interesting to read whatever you generously have in mind to share.

[dcstudio]

well actually I didn't make my intentions too clear at first...  I was just trying to get opinions and what people were looking for.

playing by ear.. seems to be like cheating to some.    It's funny -- my sister used to argue with me about that--reading was the only way to really "play"...   until her first day of grad school when the most sought after trombone professor in the city told her...  "first thing you need to do now is learn to play by ear..."

it's seems like some can just do it... and I will admit I am one of those...  but I developed that skill from the ability to pick out little simple melodies and harmonize them into being able to play songs I haven't heard in years and I have never played before...  live at the gig.   It's more than that though--I can go home and write them down, too.   It's not just like a blind ear to hand thing where when I am finished I have no idea what I just played... like I have seen in many ear playing students.

Those ear players though...  as students they don't struggle with technique for the most part... and generally speaking they play with far more musicality than the average "reader."  Getting the ear players to learn to read can be tricky... but if they do it..  then they really start to get it.

Suzuki kind of had this idea... but I would like to create something that would work along with the formal training... to enhance the students ear from an early stage.  Not a computer game though--man I hate those...lol.

I would also like to be able to pass on my technique somehow... and I have a few more ideas rolling around in my brain..

now that I am a dealer again (yea)   maybe I will be motivated to put this together.  It will be a cool side project I can work on in my spare time... 

[roncesvalles]

dcstudio, I have a problem with my fifth finger on both hands.  They often move involuntarily when my fourth finger is doing runs (for my right hand, the pinky moves when finger 4 plays the C# in the D major scale, ascending, and my left hand's pinky flails when the 4th finger plays the F# on e minor, descending).  Oddly, the fingers don't do it as much while playing staccato.   I try to slow down, isolate the motions, play in one hand position, then the next, to minimize the motion, but the moment I go back to something approaching my normal speed, the pinky starts flailing again.   I do independence exercises (from Liszt's Technical Exercises) several times a week, but the improvement has been slight.    For those troublesome scales where the 4th finger is raised and the 5th is not, any time I get to about 3/4 of my maximum speed or if I do not give my playing full attention, the pinky starts flailing.

Do you think this is something that a teacher could help correct?  I'm finally at a point where my basic technique is solid, especially in the left hand (my right hand is quicker and more powerful, but it's got a little jerkiness to it that I'm working on making a bit more elegant...it doesn't relax like my left...it wants to take charge), but I want to make sure that I will be able to continue to improve and not be held back by funky involuntary finger movements.

[louispodesta]

As stated by Earl Wild, who was taught by Egon Petri, one should always play from the surface of the key.  All of this Kissin, and other Russian performers, high-stepping finger action is just wasted motion.

In regards the little finger, just play with it up.  Seems to me that if you search for it (Mozart A Major Concerto Film), you will find a pianist by the name of Horowitz doing exactly that.

[keypeg]

In regards the little finger, just play with it up. 

This caught my attention.  A decade ago I was taking violin lessons with a teacher who had studied in a Soviet country, and the accompanist was also from there.  The violin teacher taught to keep the little finger (LH) up, and the accompanist had a tiny hand and stuck up her pinky the same way.  In recitals, all her students did the same thing.  It was explained to me that it was for the pinky to be "ready" for action.  But I have a feeling that it also does things inside the structure of the hand.  I have not seen anything along that line from Thomas Marks, but it is something I have wondered about for a decade.

[roncesvalles]

I'd put a lot of stock into anything Egon Petri said, being a student of Busoni.  It makes sense that a greater number of notes could be played if no energy was spent moving the fingers upwards.

I generally play with it a little raised, but it still wants to lift up even more (and sometimes extend outward) on those higher fourth finger notes.   So far, this isn't usually an issue, especially with the left hand, where the hand is so relaxed that the extraneous motion doesn't really disturb anything.  In the right hand I do find myself fighting against the involuntary motion.  I've yet to really find a passage in the repertoire where this is really an issue, but when doing five finger practice work with that lifted fourth finger, sometimes my pinky is out of position (requiring a jerky motion to quickly bring it down to the key).  

It just dawned on me (after reading your statement by Wild) that the difference between my legato playing and my staccato playing (where the problem isn't as pronounced) is that I tend to hold my hand higher for staccato playing.    I just went to the piano, and looking at my right hand for the problematic D major scale,  my knuckles are more or less even with the end of the white keys when I play the scale legato.   When I play staccato (when there is less of a pinky problem) my knuckles are near the midpoint between black keys and the end of the white keys, which means that there is more of an arch for my fingers, that they are higher, so the fourth finger isn't really "reaching up" to get to the C#.   This may be part of the problem.

[louispodesta]

Do you know (hey, I know it is off topic, but this is a great student) how many players take the time to analyze their own technique, absent their "teacher?"  Very few.

So, in that I have posted this before, I will share with you something I wrote to in a private message having to do with speed practice.

It has to do with the concept of direct keyboard tactile touch at an extremely slow tempo and then morphing this into a Rachmaninoff-like speed tempo.  My major teacher, the late Robert Weaver, taught the first part of this to all of his students.

First, you sit very quietly at the keyboard, and that includes your breathing and whole body relaxation.  This is important because you are building positive muscle memory from the ground up.

Next, you play a five finger scale in each hand, with super soft staccato.  This is done by striking the key from its surface.  And, you do this this super slow, and place your hands in your lap after each section of notes.

Then, you get to the point where you can do this with both hands, depending on your own individual level of dexterity.  So, when you can do this with no forced effort, you can move on to the speed practice.

From this point on, you view every technical section as a scale cluster, broken chord section, or an arpeggiated section.  This is played up or down, hands separately or hands together.

You then play a particular section of the piece in question as fast as you can, utilizing your pre-disposed soft, surface quick staccato tactile sense that you gained from the first section of this discourse.  Accordingly, you alternate between full arm weight and no arm weight.

I use the term Rachmaninoff-like technique because this is what he taught his students.

Or, you can waste your time playing Liszt exercises, all of which Rachmaninoff did before he came up with this regimen (which was probably taught to him at Conservatory).

Please start every practice section with a soft slow staccato for about a year, and whatever you do, do not raise your fingers.  Staccato is a keybed quick release, and it has nothing to do with raising your fingers.

[roncesvalles]

Mr. Podesta,

Can you elaborate a little bit on the soft staccato by "striking the key from its surface"?   Should all of my finger pads be gently resting on the top of each key, each finger in turn gently going part way down and letting the finger rebound with the key (by this I mean that you don't lift the finger to produce a shorter sound)?

[louispodesta]

Mr. Podesta,

Can you elaborate a little bit on the soft staccato by "striking the key from its surface"?   Should all of my finger pads be gently resting on the top of each key, each finger in turn gently going part way down and letting the finger rebound with the key (by this I mean that you don't lift the finger to produce a shorter sound)?

Correct!

In terms of what you term "a shorter sound," that depends on what the score calls for and also what your ear tells you at the time.

Thomas Mark teaches that (as originally commented on by Tobias Matthay) there is a corresponding push back from the striking of any key.  This, as a tangent, even applies to double notes (opening of the 3rd movement of the Schumann Concerto).

And, hey folks, I said he was a great student.  Great students ask great questions.

[anamnesis]

Do you know (hey, I know it is off topic, but this is a great student) how many players take the time to analyze their own technique, absent their "teacher?"  Very few.

So, in that I have posted this before, I will share with you something I wrote to in a private message having to do with speed practice.

It has to do with the concept of direct keyboard tactile touch at an extremely slow tempo and then morphing this into a Rachmaninoff-like speed tempo.  My major teacher, the late Robert Weaver, taught the first part of this to all of his students.

First, you sit very quietly at the keyboard, and that includes your breathing and whole body relaxation.  This is important because you are building positive muscle memory from the ground up.

Next, you play a five finger scale in each hand, with super soft staccato.  This is done by striking the key from its surface.  And, you do this this super slow, and place your hands in your lap after each section of notes.

Then, you get to the point where you can do this with both hands, depending on your own individual level of dexterity.  So, when you can do this with no forced effort, you can move on to the speed practice.

From this point on, you view every technical section as a scale cluster, broken chord section, or an arpeggiated section.  This is played up or down, hands separately or hands together.

You then play a particular section of the piece in question as fast as you can, utilizing your pre-disposed soft, surface quick staccato tactile sense that you gained from the first section of this discourse.  Accordingly, you alternate between full arm weight and no arm weight.

I use the term Rachmaninoff-like technique because this is what he taught his students.

Or, you can waste your time playing Liszt exercises, all of which Rachmaninoff did before he came up with this regimen (which was probably taught to him at Conservatory).

Please start every practice section with a soft slow staccato for about a year, and whatever you do, do not raise your fingers.  Staccato is a keybed quick release, and it has nothing to do with raising your fingers.

Have you ever read through Whiteside's ripped chord procedure?  It's remarkably similar. 

[dcstudio]

dcstudio, I have a problem with my fifth finger on both hands.  They often move involuntarily when my fourth finger is doing runs (for my right hand, the pinky moves when finger 4 plays the C# in the D major scale, ascending, and my left hand's pinky flails when the 4th finger plays the F# on e minor, descending).  Oddly, the fingers don't do it as much while playing staccato.   I try to slow down, isolate the motions, play in one hand position, then the next, to minimize the motion, but the moment I go back to something approaching my normal speed, the pinky starts flailing again.   I do independence exercises (from Liszt's Technical Exercises) several times a week, but the improvement has been slight.    For those troublesome scales where the 4th finger is raised and the 5th is not, any time I get to about 3/4 of my maximum speed or if I do not give my playing full attention, the pinky starts flailing.

Do you think this is something that a teacher could help correct?  I'm finally at a point where my basic technique is solid, especially in the left hand (my right hand is quicker and more powerful, but it's got a little jerkiness to it that I'm working on making a bit more elegant...it doesn't relax like my left...it wants to take charge), but I want to make sure that I will be able to continue to improve and not be held back by funky involuntary finger movements.

I know an off keyboard exercise for the pinky which helped me when I was younger.   If you have ever seen Mr. Spock hold his hand up and say "live long and prosper"  he splits his hand between the 3rd and 4th fingers...   do the same thing with the 4th and 5th---hold all of your fingers together--not too tightly--and only move the pinky out and back.   It can be frustratingly difficult but you can do it anywhere anytime.    instead of holding your hands up like spock--put them out in front of you like they are on the keys.  I used to play my scales and broken chords--than stop and do the independence ex. for a minute or so then play another scale.

this is only to train independence and you have to do it a few times...I think maybe if you combine it with the piano exercises you may get faster results...

my teacher also had me squeeze a rubber ball a few minutes a day too...  the little ones you get out of the gumball machines.  you just kinda of hold it in your pinky and GENTLY squeeze.  then she would have me hold it between my pinky and my thumb and squeeze-- she was a big believer in isometric exercises and  that helped too.  my teacher said it gave you "confident pinky"  lol.

generally speaking that kind of problem is usually something to do with the balance of your hand --usually there is tension somewhere that you are not releasing when you release the keys--or you are putting too much weight on your fingertips---or both.   squeezing the ball helps to train your hands to let go as soon as you release...

yes a teacher would be able to help... that's what they are here for

is there a video of you we could watch?   I can tell a little bit more if I see...and hear what you are doing