Was Franz Liszt a pick-up artist?

[cuberdrift]

Historically, we know that Liszt was much sought-after by countless women. So much so were they entranced to him that there were all these accounts of their crazed, near-animalistic attempts to get near the virtuoso. Hence this famous postcard:



So, was Liszt some kind of pick-up artist, or did his music give him all those women? And if it was his music, was it his performing antics that did it, or was it the supreme energy reverberated by his musicality that did it?

I have always been wondering about this.

Notice, too, that there were other composers equally great as him (e.g. Chopin, Mozart, Rachmaninoff, etc.) but they weren't famous for being womanisers. What quality did the Hungarian fellow have that they didn't?

Thanks!

Regards, cuberdrift

[josh93248]

Maybe he had a huge dick.

[chopinlover01]

Hah, but they wouldn't know about it until after he womanized them, now would he?
My guess is that he had a lot of sex appeal with his music, as well as probably being a smooth talker.
I'd imagine he'd play Un Sospiro and Liebestraum (hopefully all three) so often for the ladies he'd have nearly gone mad.

[outin]

Those days being handsome, well-dressed, talented and having an exiting temperament was quite enough to attract the ladies.

But to even begin to understand Liszt situation and interaction with women, one should first get to know more about the society, norms and habits of the time... The rules concerning how to deal with the opposite sex were quite different those days 

[stevensk]

Women are attracted by successful men.

[dcstudio]

I don't know... but I sure would have let him pick me up lol.  He was quite handsome as a young man.

besides women are known to believe that good hands on the piano...will mean good hands in other ...things...ahem...too.   The harder and faster the pianist plays...  well...it drives women crazy lets just leave it at that...lol.

He was the very first rock star...  he had groupies... A pick up artist is known for his rather predatory approach and his sleazy lines...  I am sure that Liszt had no need to employ these tactics as women followed him around everywhere.

Did he get laid a lot-- sure probably...   but was he a pick-up artist? I would say no--  not in the true sense of the word.

[rubinsteinmad]

I've thought Clara Schumann was more of a pickup artist.

[dcstudio]

I've thought Clara Schumann was more of a pickup artist.

if I remember correctly she was seen in the company of Brahms after Schumann screwed up his hands and went nuts...?  hmmm

[outin]

if I remember correctly she was seen in the company of Brahms after Schumann screwed up his hands and went nuts...?  hmmm

Oh, they were just VERY good friends 

[rubinsteinmad]

Didn't Franz Liszt secretly date Clara? Clara badmouthed Liszt to the public just so their relationship wouldn't be revealed....

I mean the Paganini Etudes were dedicated to Clara...

[dcstudio]

funny--you would never know from the images we see of her...but she was a bit of a "chippy" wasn't she... Wow I bet she must have really had an impressively well developed and grand...um...    ability to attract incredibly talented master composers..  who would become legendary..

[rubinsteinmad]

Johannes Brahms, Life and Letters
 by
 Styra Avins
 ISBN 0-19-924773-0

 Appendix A: Johannes Brahms and Clara Schumann
_{Clara's idealism was matched by Joachim and Brahms. Rubinstein once referred to the pair as 'High Priests of Virtue.' All three of them broke with Franz Liszt on matters essentially philosophical and aesthetics, with detrimental effects especially for Brahms. It was not the only time their idealism triumphed over their self interest. Clara refused to attend or to participate in any concert which Wagner's music was being played. She and Joachim consistently refused to play popular virtuoso pieces merely to please audiences, and Joachim gave up a lucrative concert in England so as not to prostitute his art, Brahms voicing his approval. And they all refused to co-operate in a festival of the music of Robert Schumann, because the wrong people were organizing it."}

I'm sure there's going to be a soap opera about how Clara poisoned Robert (for the better, maybe ), so she could live with Brahms.

From Wikipedia:
_{She was initially interested in the works of Liszt, but later developed an outright hostility to him. She ceased to play any of his works; she suppressed her husband's dedication to Liszt of his Fantasie in C major when she published Schumann's complete works; and she refused to attend a Beethoven centenary festival in Vienna in 1870 when she heard that Liszt and Richard Wagner would be participating.[7]}


Make your speculations

[dcstudio]

_{She was initially interested in the works of Liszt, but later developed an outright hostility to him. She ceased to play any of his works; she suppressed her husband's dedication to Liszt of his Fantasie in C major when she published Schumann's complete works; and she refused to attend a Beethoven centenary festival in Vienna in 1870 when she heard that Liszt and Richard Wagner would be participating.[7]}


Make your speculations

she sounds a bit...  pregnant doggy...  and vindictive.   hmmmmm  now I wonder what Franz could have done to cause such hostility in the lovely Clara...

I will write a historical romance cheap novel

50 shades of Franz ?     LOL  

...you know it's not a bad idea...  and every one of you would buy it!  I will make him a vampire!

[rubinsteinmad]

Duh Once you write it, I'll make a soap opera adaptation All the arias will be by Wagner

[ted]

The thing which puzzles me about Liszt, if he was really such an extravagantly lecherous rake, is why he did not have syphilis.

[outin]

The thing which puzzles me about Liszt, if he was really such an extravagantly lecherous rake, is why he did not have syphilis.

Well, it was more common with prostitutes and maybe he didn't have to use their services that much

[ronde_des_sylphes]

He was probably lucky in that respect. One of his mistresses (Lola Montez) died from the effects of syphilis, and if he was sleeping with Marie Duplessis (iirc, it's not clear but there are certainly suggestions in the communications between them), then one has to remember that so were many of the Parisian elite.

[bronnestam]

besides women are known to believe that good hands on the piano...will mean good hands in other ...things...ahem...too.   The harder and faster the pianist plays...  well...it drives women crazy lets just leave it at that...lol.

Pianists are the sexiest thing! Not only do they demonstrate interesting ... dexterity and sensitive touch with their hands, they also handle the biggest and most impressive instrument.         
And besides, a pianist at work does not look as ridiculous as many other musicians do. Try to look sexy while you play the sousaphone.

It is just too bad that classical pianists (male) are forced into a dress code which seems to be invented by talibans, covering their bodies completely from their chin down to the floor and out to their wrists. (While female pianists are dressed in spaghetti and hand towels in these days.) OK, so maybe it would be quite disturbing with a classical pianist looking like a Chippendale, but
I would not mind a more casual dress code which exposes some biceps as well. (Provided that there are any worth seeing, ha ha.)

OK, I was joking. Actually I usually attend piano concerts with my eyes closed, so the best way to seduce me is with sweet music.
I think Liszt was pretty good at the latter.

[bronnestam]

Just as a side note, it seems to be clear that Beethoven suffered of syphilis as well, which both caused his deafness and later his death. Obviously he was not a pure saint.

[roncesvalles]

The enmity between Clara Schumann and Liszt is complex, but part of it arose from Liszt's pupil, Hermann Cohen.   Liszt and consequently Cohen voiced support for Robert Schumann against Clara's father, Friedrich Wieck.  Wieck responded in the newspapers with vitriol against the pair.  Cohen then sued Wieck for libel (and won the case).   Although Liszt did nothing, Clara may have taken this lawsuit as an attack against her family, more or less guilt by association.

[dcstudio]

Cohen sounds like a wuss...

[rubinsteinmad]

The enmity between Clara Schumann and Liszt is complex, but part of it arose from Liszt's pupil, Hermann Cohen.   Liszt and consequently Cohen voiced support for Robert Schumann against Clara's father, Friedrich Wieck.  Wieck responded in the newspapers with vitriol against the pair.  Cohen then sued Wieck for libel (and won the case).   Although Liszt did nothing, Clara may have taken this lawsuit as an attack against her family, more or less guilt by association.

Oh- yet another opportunity for dcstudio to dramatize her 50 Shades of Franz! So Clara was already seriously considering adultery BEFORE she and Robert married What a sinful *****

[schumaniac]

Oh- yet another opportunity for dcstudio to dramatize her 50 Shades of Franz! So Clara was already seriously considering adultery BEFORE she and Robert married What a sinful *****

Bruh, your involvement in this topic... 
12-year olds these days
Jk, most middle schoolers I know are "perverted" as ever, so it's normal ;P

[mjames]

The thing which puzzles me about Liszt, if he was really such an extravagantly lecherous rake, is why he did not have syphilis.

It's not FAIR! Schubert, the awkward introvert guy, probably had sex like once or twice DIES OF SYPHILIS meanwhile playboy lives until 70+? Fck that!

Man I would have rather had a Schubert that lived until 70 and a Liszt that died at 32 than the other way around. DAMMIT.

IS THERE AN ULTIMATE UNIVERSE I CAN TRAVEL TO?

[rubinsteinmad]

Bruh, your involvement in this topic... 
12-year olds these days
Jk, most middle schoolers I know are "perverted" as ever, so it's normal ;P

I'm not perverted. Only boys are perveted

[dcstudio]

It's not FAIR! Schubert, the awkward introvert guy, probably had sex like once or twice DIES OF SYPHILIS meanwhile playboy lives until 70+? Fck that!

Man I would have rather had a Schubert that lived until 70 and a Liszt that died at 32 than the other way around. DAMMIT.

IS THERE AN ULTIMATE UNIVERSE I CAN TRAVEL TO?

Liszt covered his monkey when things got funky.   

[ted]

That is the most obvious explanation. There is also the possibility that the physical aspect of his romantic exploits has been, to some degree, either assumed or exaggerated, both by him and by the public. Combination of both I suspect.

[outin]

I'm not perverted. Only boys are perveted

What an odd claim...

[dcstudio]

wow this string got strange---lots of fodder for my 50 Shades of Franz novel...  now we have a second guy...hmmm a werewolf perhaps...  to compete for Clara's affections...  of course Franz would be the vampire---but not twerpy moody shovel-face Edward Cullen type-- 109 year old visiting an 17 yr old girls bedroom creepy Vampire...  a nice Anne Rice Lestat type Vampire--who is out to make Clara his "companion"---who is up front and monsterly and not some tortured creepy ivy league drop-out looking Brit trying to sound American...

Franz's students would be his coven...   when he bites them they can play anything and they become  vampire monster piano players who are immortal and reinvent themselves as new composers---Franz would actually turn out to be Pythagoras and he would be responsible for every evolutionary step in music---he would be Bach, too---or maybe Palestrina or Montiverdi--all of the famous composers would eventually turn out to be Vampires--and some will have been 3 or 4 of them....


what do you think?

[kypiano]

Tha's creepy

[dcstudio]

then it should get to be a movie...    if I just add whips and stufff

[kypiano]

Franz Liszt dedicated both versions of his Paganini Etudes to Clara. Clara was 18 when he dedicated the first, unrevised batch. Could she handle it back then?

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Franz's students would be his coven...   when he bites them they can play anything and they become  vampire monster piano players who are immortal and reinvent themselves as new composers

In Ken Russell's crazy, part-hilarious, part-surreal movie Lisztomania, Wagner metamorphoses into a vampire and bites Liszt in the neck (it's a piece of fairly unsubtle musical history symbolism). The movie also opens with Liszt in action, albeit not of the pianistic variety, to the beat of a metronome which gradually accelerates.

[dcstudio]

In Ken Russell's crazy, part-hilarious, part-surreal movie Lisztomania, Wagner metamorphoses into a vampire and bites Liszt in the neck (it's a piece of fairly unsubtle musical history symbolism). The movie also opens with Liszt in action, albeit not of the pianistic variety, to the beat of a metronome which gradually accelerates.

to a metronome?...  lol..  that would be really distracting... but that's still pretty cool to see Liszt "in action"  --albeit not at the piano.

I remember Wagner was Liszt's father - in -law... so that makes sense...  hmmm my plot thickens

[kypiano]

to a metronome?...  lol..  that would be really distracting... but that's still pretty cool to see Liszt "in action"  --albeit not at the piano.

I remember Wagner was Liszt's father - in -law... so that makes sense...  hmmm my plot thickens

Wait- wasn't Liszt Wagner's father in law? I thought Wagner married Liszt's daughter.

[dogperson]

Wait- wasn't Liszt Wagner's father in law? I thought Wagner married Liszt's daughter.

Yes, Wagner married Liszt's daughter, Cosima.

[dcstudio]

yeah...that's what I meant.   

[schumaniac]

to a metronome?...  lol..  that would be really distracting... but that's still pretty cool to see Liszt "in action"  --albeit not at the piano.

I remember Wagner was Liszt's father - in -law... so that makes sense...  hmmm my plot thickens

"cool?"

for me, I would call it "scarring..."

[dcstudio]

"cool?"

for me, I would call it "scarring..."

Franz Liszt doin the nasty....  yeah I can see how that would stay with you for a while...lol

all the syphilis back then  ...  ewwwwww....   

[schumaniac]

.li

[dcstudio]

Yes; speaking of syphilis, at my teacher's studio recital, I & other "piano classmates" had this funny-but-weird conversation about Schubert and the possible relations he had, as well as the ways he "swung..." (who said classical music was stuffy and boring?)

really?  Schubert?   a "swinger"  ewwwww... syphilis...  you guys didn't see the stuff they showed my generation about that... the films.. the pictures...OMG...

 

[schumaniac]

really?  Schubert?   a "swinger"  ewwwww... syphilis...  you guys didn't see the stuff they showed my generation about that... the films.. the pictures...OMG...

 

Wait, I meant the "direction" in which one "swings..." which is also called sexual orientation...
As for Schubert being a swinger, I don't know about that, though it brings news meaning to the "Schubertiades"

[dcstudio]

Wait, I meant the "direction" in which one "swings..." which is also called sexual orientation
As for Schubert being a swinger, I don't know about that, though it brings news meaning to the "Schubertiades" *smirk emoji*

 

lol...you mean he was just gay?    yeah with those glasses and all that wavy hair... and all shy and sensitive..  and he idolized Beeth..(and I am just going to stop right there)

[kypiano]

lol...you mean he was just gay?    yeah with those glasses and all that wavy hair... and all shy and sensitive..  and he idolized Beeth..(and I am just going to stop right there)

More funni things to add to your little spicy story

[mjames]

Schubert had a really close but weird friendship with an extroverted playboy. I forgot his name, but sources tell us that he was very extroverted and sociable..the exact opposite of Schubert. He adored Schubert, loved being around him, and he was probably the one that convinced Schubert to visit a whorehouse. Weirdly enough after Schubert's death, this guy never spoke about Schubert EVER again. Didn't have any letters from Schubert in his possession, as if the guy never existed. Kinda reminds me of the way George Sands treated Chopin after his death (she burnt/destroyed all of his letters..).

I kinda suspected that Schubert might have been gay from this guy but then you take into account that 1. Schubert had a lot of crushes/love interests, and he also often dedicated works to them. An example would be his Fantasie in fminor for duet...dedicated to his pupil. Sources claim that he was in love with her.

2. Schubert's closest friend lived a long life, and he didn't have syphilis.


So Schubert's lack of relationship with women might have not been because he was into men, but because he was just THAT socially awkward. It's just weird when you read about this man's personality after you listen or play his music. The thought of such a timid man creating such powerful music completely baffles me.

[dcstudio]

Schubert had a really close but weird friendship with an extroverted playboy. I forgot his name, but sources tell us that he was very extroverted and sociable..the exact opposite of Schubert. He adored Schubert, loved being around him, and he was probably the one that convinced Schubert to visit a whorehouse. Weirdly enough after Schubert's death, this guy never spoke about Schubert EVER again. Didn't have any letters from Schubert in his possession, as if the guy never existed. Kinda reminds me of the way George Sands treated Chopin after his death (she burnt/destroyed all of his letters..).

I kinda suspected that Schubert might have been gay from this guy but then you take into account that 1. Schubert had a lot of crushes/love interests, and he also often dedicated works to them. An example would be his Fantasie in fminor for duet...dedicated to his pupil. Sources claim that he was in love with her.

2. Schubert's closest friend lived a long life, and he didn't have syphilis.


So Schubert's lack of relationship with women might have not been because he was into men, but because he was just THAT socially awkward. It's just weird when you read about this man's personality after you listen or play his music. The thought of such a timid man creating such powerful music completely baffles me.

I must say...   our juvenile humor notwithstanding...  I have learned some stuff about these people in this string.  This has to be one of the most informative and yet least argumentative threads I have ever seen here.

I am semi-seriously considering writing this story...   just because of all the interesting tidbits of information I keep seeing in this discussion.



the extroverted playboy and the introverted shy talented musician....  hmmmm  there's just all kinds of possibilities with that

[mjames]

I dont want people think i was making up stuff about Schubert so here's the name of the friend...description..and the source of my info.

Schober, Franz von (1796–1882). Austrian dilettante. Gifted, charismatic and undisciplined, he was in many ways the most prominent member of Schubert’s circle. Franz von Schober, an associate of the ‘Bildung Circle’ and already a sophisticated man of the world, certainly in his own estimation. Tall, handsome, smooth, facile and verbally articulate, he was in many respects Schubert’s polar opposite. Oozing charisma, he quite overwhelmed the diminutive, tongue-tied Schubert, who quickly became an adoring admirer. He was hardly alone. Schubert’s friend and former schoolmate Eduard von Bauernfeld was almost equally entranced: 'Schober surpasses us all in mind, and still more so in speech!'

He was certainly Schubert's closest and most influential friend, but not in the long run for the better. Helpful in establishing useful opportunities and contacts in the early part of Schubert’s career, and in providing him with lodgings for extended periods, he was later blamed, most fiercely by Josef Kenner (see above). Frustratingly for posterity, this man who knew Schubert longer and better than anyone else outside his family never set down a single sentence of reminiscence.

The one who blamed Schober for Schubert's illnesses was this guy

Kenner, Josef (1794–1868). Austrian civil servant and a former schoolmate of Schubert’s at the Seminary. Of Kenner, an accomplished amateur writer, Schubert set to music 3 of his poems.

His reminiscences are most memorable for their scathing attack on Schober’s influence in Schubert’s life. He certainly blamed Schober for encouraging the composer into the pathways that led to his final illness.

https://www.franzpeterschubert.com/schuberts_circle.html

I have a few biographies of Schubert with more detailed accounts but im too lazy to find the specific paragraphs XD so you're just going to have to deal with this.

To his discredit he could never be persuaded to write down his memories of Schubert – a document which might have been of the greatest importance to all students of the composer’s life. Whether this was sheer laziness or whether his relationship with the composer seemed too complicated, or perhaps too precious, to explain to the world many years later, is a moot point. He died with many secrets intact about a man whom he never seems to have realised was to be the sole reason for his own immortality.

[rubinsteinmad]

Hmmmm........
I was looking at caricatures of Brahms today, and I think I've discovered something...
Was Clara Schumann a ....umm...... a dress for sale?


Or maybe she was just very shaftable.

[schumaniac]

Hmmmm........
I was looking at caricatures of Brahms today, and I think I've discovered something...
Was Clara Schumann a ....umm...... a dress for sale?


Or maybe she was just very shaftable.

BRUH

[rubinsteinmad]

Hmmmm........
I was looking at caricatures of Brahms today, and I think I've discovered something...
Was Clara Schumann a ....umm...... a dress for sale?

Maybe she advertised herself to Liszt, who probably wasn't interested...

Then she got all crazy and h8er.

Nice for Fifty Shades of Franz.