Hitting Two Keys at Once

[playsgrieg]

I don't seem to be able to stop sloppily hitting two keys at once!  I've taken lessons and been playing piano off and on for nearly 50 years.  I retired 9 months ago and have been able to practice 2 to 3 hours each day.  Sometimes I can play a piece flawlessly, then other times no matter what I do I play it poorly and hit two keys at once.  Sometimes my fingers just fly over the keys and I barely hit 5 out of 10 notes correctly.  Seems the only way I can be sure of playing a piece properly every time is to play it v-e-r-y  s-l-o-w-l-y.   That's just not practical with Bach's Prelude #2 from WTC or Rachmaninoff's Prelude #12 Op. 32!  I'm beginning to think I have some sort of physical problem that causes my fingers to all of a sudden be messy and sloppy when playing a piece I've played flawlessly many other times. 

[burzum0727]

It sounds like you need a better warm up or maybe to go with a metronome and increase your overall accuracy . This is from my guitarist side where I had the same problems for a couple years. I started with a metronome and took 220 bpm music and dialed it     all    the     way      down    to about 60bpm and after I.could do it ten times flawlessly id increase by 5 bpm . Soon you will realize at what beat your accuracy is off then its just work from there on out. You will increase fast at first then trust me you will slow down progress quite a bit but it makes your accuracy so much better.

[adodd81802]

It sounds like you need a better warm up or maybe to go with a metronome and increase your overall accuracy . This is from my guitarist side where I had the same problems for a couple years. I started with a metronome and took 220 bpm music and dialed it     all    the     way      down    to about 60bpm and after I.could do it ten times flawlessly id increase by 5 bpm . Soon you will realize at what beat your accuracy is off then its just work from there on out. You will increase fast at first then trust me you will slow down progress quite a bit but it makes your accuracy so much better.

Just wanted to reinforce this quote, it's hit the nail on the head IMO. metronome is great to force you to slow down, play in time, and allow you to increase accuracy.

What you got to remember is muscle memory will be the end result in learning pieces, if 50% of the time you are hitting wrong notes, youre just ingraining that muscle memory to get your fingers "somewhere around that area" thats why sometimes it hits, sometimes it dont. When you go slowly you can really think about the notes, and learn it with the muscle memory, so that when it goes too fast that you cant look (i rarely look at my right hand) then you can know you have told your muscle memory to play within a much smaller area (the right key!)

[mrnhrtkmp210999]

I wouldn't go for too much metronome practicing. It's mostly a matter of a poor motoric memory of the piece. You have to play at normal tempo and recognize where you go wrong most of the times. Slow those passages down and observe, at a really slow tempo, what's going wrong. Is it a awkward movement of which you're not aware while playing at normal tempo? A lot of times that's it.

Also, never play too fast. If it goes wrong often at a certain tempo, slow it down, because your motoric memory will take notion of those wrong notes and ingrain them into it's memory.

BW,
Marijn

[dcstudio]

I have been playing 47 years...      maybe I can help...but I need more information

tell me what you think about when you play    and is there a specific piece you have been playing for decades that you continually mash keys on?   Is there a piece you have never played correctly?

did you maybe start working on your "dream piece" recently...   

or did you see another pianist that made you feel... less?

after 50 years you vented this for the first time today?  what happened?  why now?

[playsgrieg]

Hello, this is a reply to dcstudio:  1) What do I think about when I'm playing?  Lots of things, mainly of course the piece I'm playing, but also other things such as what I see out the window, former piano teachers, what I'm going to make for dinner that night, etc . Sometimes I carefully concentrate to play each note succinctly and correctly and as soon as I get ready to hit a prominent note, such as the last RH note in Chopin's Waltz in C# minor, the second section, OUCH!  I play the wrong note!   I've played these pieces for years and years and I know exactly what the notes should be.  It's like there's a little gremlin inside my brain that waits for opportune moments and then makes me screw up.  2) I'm not trying to learn my dream piece; just learning new things and resurrecting other things that I played years ago.  3) Why have I never posted anything about this problem before?  I don't spend a lot of time on a computer and only recently have been exploring the internet more fully since I'm now retired.  Posting things online is foreign to me and this is the first time I've ever done anything like that.  4) Have I seen another pianist who made me feel 'less'?  No, I guess I simply feel that with all the practicing I do I should be able to play something flawlessly, especially some poor threadbare piece I've played since I was a teenager!  I never make the *same* mistakes; each time I play a piece it's always a new adventure as to which notes I'm going to screw up this time!  Anyway, I think I need to just slow down and realize that I'm not auditioning for Carnegie Hall! 

[dcstudio]

your problem is quite common among those who are longtime players.

that "app" you created in your brain to play the C# min waltz is flickering..   what happens after decades of playing these pieces is that we forget how we learned them... all that's left is muscle memory...and it is very inconsistent.   Now the good news is that after 50 years--there is a part of your brain that knows everything...it can take any song or piece you hear and allow you to play a pretty convincing rendition with no preparation at all.   You play by ear?  just a bit don't you?  that is where this ability "lives"     if you can incorporate this into your playing your accuracy will really improve.

you are screwing it up because your mind is either wondering off -- or you are purposely trying to not think about the notes hoping your fingers will remember.   Then while you are busy playing your brain very casually asks..."hey...  so what are you doing?"   and you really have no answer... so then your brain says "I don't know the next note"  -- and BAM  CAKE... you screw up... then sometimes that muscle memory will kick back in and you can go on---and sometimes not...  it's very frustrating.

rushing through things is a telltale sign of heavy reliance on muscle memory.  Sometimes you have to give your brain something concrete to hold onto when you are playing...  chord names... solfege...something. Train your thoughts as well as your hands... while you are playing think up phrases that will help you remember what to play... and "tag" them to the melody of whatever you are playing... in other words

make up words to the melody and sing them in your head while you play   it really helps..  it gives you another "app"so to speak... try it.

[playsgrieg]

Thank you, fellow pianists, for your invaluable input with regard to my unruly fingers.  You've given me a lot to think about and work on, and also a wonderful spark of hope that this problem can be overcome!  I've been referred to sometimes as 'a dog with a bone' and when I have a problem I don't give up until it's solved, so today begins my quest to solve this.  I am elated that there are things I can do that will help me get my fingers to behave.  So, right now my mood is like Golliwog's Cake Walk and I'm pumped!  Thank you, each one of you, for taking the time to help me. 

[louispodesta]

Thank you, fellow pianists, for your invaluable input with regard to my unruly fingers.  You've given me a lot to think about and work on, and also a wonderful spark of hope that this problem can be overcome!  I've been referred to sometimes as 'a dog with a bone' and when I have a problem I don't give up until it's solved, so today begins my quest to solve this.  I am elated that there are things I can do that will help me get my fingers to behave.  So, right now my mood is like Golliwog's Cake Walk and I'm pumped!  Thank you, each one of you, for taking the time to help me. 

I am hesitant to do this, but after my initial comment.  I will advise you by personal message, which you can access by clicking on my name.  This means I need your permission to proceed from thereon.

So, in that I have posted this before, my late teacher Robert Weaver taught all of his students this finger independent exercise:

1)  You sit in an erect, non-stiff, and relaxed posture.  2)  Then, you play a five finger scale, starting at middle C in the right hand, and then the same an octave below in the left hand.

3)  Next, you take either hand alone and play the same scale in a strike and release soft staccato fashion, with and absolutely still hand. This is to be played one note at a time, placing your hands in your lap (take a breath after each one) by adding an additional note after each one.  Stare at your hand, and play it as slow as you can until you can do it in a total controlled relaxed fashion (it wont' take more than a couple of days, at most).

4)  You do this up, in the right hand, starting from the thumb, and up in the left hand, starting from the little finger.

5)  Do the same exercise in reverse starting from the little finger of the right hand, and then the thumb of the left hand.

6)  Next, once you have mastered this, you play each hand up and down in one motion, and then hands together, accordingly.

By mastering this, you can then, with additional advice, do the same by adding arm weight to the same exercise.

Thanks for asking,

[louispodesta]

When just reviewing other forums, I found, in the "Performance Forum," as posted by "Georgey," the following:

["Murray McLachlan states in his book "Foundations of Technique" Chapter 3:  "True finger independence for pianists means using each digit in turn without any movement from the others in the same hand.  It is a vital basic skill".  He then states that "Hanon's suggestion that 'fingers should be lifted high' is a guaranteed way of creating tension and stiffness in your wrists.  He also states that "touch and press is a beautiful, relaxed approach to piano technique".  He describes the touch and press as follows: "... place all your fingers on the keyboard on the five-finger position and imagining that each fingertip has been glued down to the keys.  Without lifting the fingers, practice producing sounds with each note in turn."]

This is the same methodology, playing from the fingers resting on the surface of the keys is what Earl Wild's teacher, Egon Petri, taught him over a hundred years ago.

In addition, my coach, Thomas Mark, taught me that one should utilize the entire body when playing the piano.  Accordingly, a pianist should never "PRESS" when playing any key or chord, at the piano.

Pressing, as with Glenn Gould's "tapping," isolates the hand and wrist as the supposed effective mechanism of playing the piano.

This, in my opinion, in terms of the kinesiology associated with playing the piano, is wrong.