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Topic: Favorite Opus of Piano Music  (Read 6686 times)

Offline pencilart3

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #50 on: September 20, 2015, 12:21:46 AM
Oh. I like Chopin's waltzes.
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Offline ajlongspiano

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #51 on: September 20, 2015, 12:56:38 AM
Chopinlover1 seems to not like me much haha.

Offline pencilart3

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #52 on: September 20, 2015, 12:59:49 AM
Chopinlover1 seems to not like me much haha.

Brilliant observation, Holmes!! I don't think he's too fond of me either... :P
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Offline chopinlover01

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #53 on: September 20, 2015, 04:50:40 AM
Chopinlover1 seems to not like me much haha.
I don't mind you at all, AJ, we just disagree  :) I also love your playing.
Noah and I have less agreeing views  ;D

Offline outin

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #54 on: September 20, 2015, 05:47:04 AM
Oh. I like Chopin's waltzes.

I don't  ;)

The only ones I can stand are 34-2, 64-2, 69-2, 70-2
The rest are either boring or annoying. But that actually goes for the whole genre ;)

I really don't know how anyone could name their favorite op...after all there are so many great ones...It might be possible to name top 100...

Offline kevonthegreatpianist

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #55 on: September 20, 2015, 05:56:40 AM
Chopinlover1 seems to not like me much haha.
oh he hates me 

I don't  ;)

The only ones I can stand are 34-2, 64-2, 69-2, 70-2
The rest are either boring or annoying. But that actually goes for the whole genre ;)

I really don't know how anyone could name their favorite op...after all there are so many great ones...It might be possible to name top 100...
GO MAZURKAS.
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Offline kevonthegreatpianist

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #56 on: September 20, 2015, 05:59:10 AM
I'd argue that up until op. 10 he hadn't really written much worthwhile, the only exceptions coming to mind being Op. 6. Op 10 and 11 were nice, that lasted him a while until Op 20 (b minor scherzo), where he really started picking up.

Chopin gave out everything right from his Op.1 (rondo of swag) and Op.2 (variations of swag) Chopin really went hardcore when he reached Op.10, then went on steroids when he reached Op.50-60. i mean, he could beat the hungarian rhadssphys

screw autocorrect
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Offline outin

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #57 on: September 20, 2015, 06:02:38 AM
oh he hates me 
 GO MAZURKAS.

I don't care for those either...

Offline mjames

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #58 on: September 20, 2015, 10:21:58 AM
If anyone is still wondering why most of the top PS contributors left this site, this thread here is your reason. The childishness is just simply appalling.

Offline ajlongspiano

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #59 on: September 20, 2015, 11:15:12 AM
If anyone is still wondering why most of the top PS contributors left this site, this thread here is your reason. The childishness is just simply appalling.

boom

Offline pencilart3

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #60 on: September 20, 2015, 12:53:43 PM
Noah and I have less agreeing views  ;D

Haha yes or maybe I'm just too bold about them! :D

If anyone is still wondering why most of the top PS contributors left this site, this thread here is your reason. The childishness is just simply appalling.

Hey don't look at me!!
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Offline kevonthegreatpianist

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #61 on: September 20, 2015, 03:13:58 PM
Hey don't look at me!!


spare me, PS contributiors, but you never asked. i could easily turn into a different personality.
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Offline chopinlover01

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #62 on: September 20, 2015, 05:05:30 PM
If anyone is still wondering why most of the top PS contributors left this site, this thread here is your reason. The childishness is just simply appalling.
Heaven forbid people actually get somewhat involved about their discussions of Liszt vs Chopin, instead of simply posting in "Last Post Wins!", you're right.
Plenty of these kinds of discussions came and went and nobody batted an eye; methinks the whole drama of Emily and Kyle (or whatever the hell it is, I never cared enough to pay attention) is what made many people want to kick the bucket.

Offline mjames

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #63 on: September 20, 2015, 05:11:59 PM
Heaven forbid people actually get somewhat involved about their discussions of Liszt vs Chopin,
I don't really care about that. People can have their versus discussions all they like but..it's just that some people in this thread are acting really obnoxious and immature about it.

Offline kevonthegreatpianist

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #64 on: September 20, 2015, 05:15:29 PM
I don't care for those either...
at least you like chopin's polonaises? i like 40/2, 44, 53, 61, and the g#
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Offline kevonthegreatpianist

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #65 on: September 20, 2015, 05:23:24 PM
I don't really care about that. People can have their versus discussions all they like but..it's just that some people in this thread are acting really obnoxious and immature about it.

i think I'm really immature in the ABP section, but hey, guys, I'm civilized here
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Offline outin

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #66 on: September 20, 2015, 06:13:17 PM
at least you like chopin's polonaises? i like 40/2, 44, 53, 61, and the g#

Oh yes I do!

I could not remember the opuses of my favorites, but thanks to the search function I quickly found them :)

Polonaise op 26/02
Polonaise op 44
Polonaise op 71/01

Of course the thread is from 2013 so not sure if my opinions are up to date...

Offline kevonthegreatpianist

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #67 on: September 20, 2015, 07:13:38 PM
Oh yes I do!

I could not remember the opuses of my favorites, but thanks to the search function I quickly found them :)

well IMO, i think the polonaises are way more than just dances. the huge polonaises (22, 44, 53, and 61) can compete with CHopin's scherzos and ballades
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Offline pencilart3

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #68 on: September 20, 2015, 08:48:20 PM
In general the polonaises are one of my least favorite of Chopin's works, but the first 3 are brilliant. Especially the 1st one. Oh man the lyrical theme in the first one is awesome. 
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Offline kevonthegreatpianist

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #69 on: September 20, 2015, 09:12:07 PM
In general the polonaises are one of my least favorite of Chopin's works, but the first 3 are brilliant. Especially the 1st one. Oh man the lyrical theme in the first one is awesome. 
published or composed? because i don't like his early ones. i like the bb minor polonaise when it's played like a nocturne.
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Offline pencilart3

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #70 on: September 20, 2015, 09:18:42 PM
published or composed? because i don't like his early ones. i like the bb minor polonaise when it's played like a nocturne.

62/1, 62/2, 40/1. I really like 62/1.
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Offline kevonthegreatpianist

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #71 on: September 20, 2015, 09:24:33 PM
62/1, 62/2, 40/1. I really like 62/1.

the Op.62 are nocturnes....  :-\
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Offline pencilart3

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #72 on: September 20, 2015, 09:42:29 PM
the Op.62 are nocturnes....  :-\

Whatever op 26 I think you know what I mean. ::)
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Offline kevonthegreatpianist

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #73 on: September 21, 2015, 01:28:42 AM
Whatever op 26 I think you know what I mean. ::)

oh yeah. the introduction of the c# minor one is god.
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Offline chopinlover01

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #74 on: September 21, 2015, 03:13:07 AM
Technically, the first (published)is Op. 22.

Offline pencilart3

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #75 on: September 21, 2015, 04:24:04 AM
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Offline kevonthegreatpianist

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #76 on: September 21, 2015, 05:02:33 AM
Technically, the first (published)is Op. 22.
no, it's the g minor polonaise. fred's dad published it when he was 8 years old.

the tactics tho
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Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #77 on: September 22, 2015, 12:09:17 AM
I believe that Mazeppa gives Liszt a leg up on Chopin, or in more safe words, an immunity to Chopin having a leg up on him.

I think Chopin definitely has more musical that immediately strikes one as beautiful, though. Too bad I don't even like classical music !It's such a chore

Offline pencilart3

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #78 on: September 22, 2015, 12:11:55 AM
I believe that Mazeppa gives Liszt a leg up on Chopin, or maybe an immunity to Chopin having a leg up on him.

What on earth? Yes, Mazeppa is a fine etude, but a composer can't "have an immunity to Chopin having a leg up on him" because of one etude. I could say the same thing about Chopin's winterwind or chromatique or thirds.
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Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #79 on: September 22, 2015, 12:26:41 AM
What on earth? Yes, Mazeppa is a fine etude, but a composer can't "have an immunity to Chopin having a leg up on him" because of one etude. I could say the same thing about Chopin's winterwind or chromatique or thirds.
In order for one musician to be definitively superior to another one, they have to outclass the other in nearly every way. Listen to Mazeppa, and then listen to anything by Chopin, and it should be obvious that Liszt had a certain kind of musical substance Chopin didn't, or didn't really go for. Mazeppa tells a visual story better than anything I heard by Chopin. It's in the buildup and the energy and structure of the song.

One qualm I have about  a lot of classical music in general, is that it seems to have a slow section thrown in for no reason other than because "yeah after this fast section there needs to be a slow section because uhhh it cant all be fast and then yeah we can end it." Thats what you call convention inhibiting creativity. In many cases I feel like the song would be way more consistent and impactful without a customary Andante / Adiago / Cantabile passage. I kinda feel that way about the slow section in Mazeppa because it does halt the momentum and start being sweet and singing for no reason, but at the same time I really like how the transition accelerates back to the original tempo.

Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #80 on: September 22, 2015, 12:33:04 AM
I don't really care about that. People can have their versus discussions all they like but..it's just that some people in this thread are acting really obnoxious and immature about it.
You can ignore it!

Offline kevonthegreatpianist

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #81 on: September 22, 2015, 12:33:34 AM
In order for one musician to be definitively superior to another one, they have to outclass the other in nearly every way. Listen to Mazeppa, and then listen to anything by Chopin, and it should be obvious that Liszt had a certain kind of musical substance Chopin didn't, or didn't really go for. Mazeppa tells a visual story better than anything I heard by Chopin. It's in the buildup and the energy and structure of the song.

One qualm I have about  a lot of classical music in general, is that it seems to have a slow section thrown in for no reason other than because "yeah after this fast section there needs to be a slow section because uhhh it cant all be fast and then yeah we can end it." Thats what you call convention inhibiting creativity. In many cases I feel like the song would be way more consistent and impactful without a customary Andante / Adiago / Cantabile passage. I kinda feel that way about the slow section in Mazeppa because it does halt the momentum and start being sweet and singing for no reason, but at the same time I really like how the transition accelerates back to the original tempo.
yeah, i think the mazeppa is list's greatest transcendal etude
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Offline chopinlover01

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #82 on: September 22, 2015, 12:38:55 AM
@swagmaster You really can't accurately compare Liszt and Chopin, they were so different in style that it's damn near impossible.
That said, if I had to pick one, it would probably be Chopin.
About your qualms with slow sections, it actually dates back to the sonata movement structure- Allegro, Adagio, and the final movement can be just about anything, though often it's a rondo.
As far as romantic music is concerned, keep in mind improvisation was a huge source of material for many composers. Slower sections also give nice contrast to constant speed and power- it makes the faster sections just that much more powerful.
I thought much like you at one point (hate to say this, it's corny as hell and slightly condescending), but I came to love these slow sections; when things are simply fast all the time, it gets boring. I can only listen to Chopin's Revolutionary Etude so many times before it gets boring.
Also, Chopin doesn't always go slow ;)
Examples of that are basically all the etudes. And some miscellaneous works.

Offline kevonthegreatpianist

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #83 on: September 22, 2015, 12:49:02 AM
@swagmaster You really can't accurately compare Liszt and Chopin, they were so different in style that it's damn near impossible.
That said, if I had to pick one, it would probably be Chopin.
About your qualms with slow sections, it actually dates back to the sonata movement structure- Allegro, Adagio, and the final movement can be just about anything, though often it's a rondo.
As far as romantic music is concerned, keep in mind improvisation was a huge source of material for many composers. Slower sections also give nice contrast to constant speed and power- it makes the faster sections just that much more powerful.
I thought much like you at one point (hate to say this, it's corny as hell and slightly condescending), but I came to love these slow sections; when things are simply fast all the time, it gets boring. I can only listen to Chopin's Revolutionary Etude so many times before it gets boring.
Also, Chopin doesn't always go slow ;)
Examples of that are basically all the etudes. And some miscellaneous works.

also beethoven had something in his sonatas that Chopinzo himself didn't. beethoven made a new type of sonata, while Chopin just twisted the original version. his sonatas were basically Allegro, Scherzo: Allegro, Lento, the Presto, a form that Beethoven commonly used in his early period. Beethoven turned the sonata into something that Liszt couldn't even make.
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Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #84 on: September 22, 2015, 12:53:08 AM


What the hell Beethoven! You actually composed something interesting! Just kidding, but not really.

Offline outin

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #85 on: September 22, 2015, 04:40:27 AM
Listen to Mazeppa, and then listen to anything by Chopin, and it should be obvious that Liszt had a certain kind of musical substance Chopin didn't, or didn't really go for. Mazeppa tells a visual story better than anything I heard by Chopin. It's in the buildup and the energy and structure of the song.

What has telling a visual story has to do with musical substance really?

I think you calling it a song might be revealing of how you perceive music. Chopin was not a storyteller like some composers, that's true. He did not seem to care for program music at all. But that's one of the reasons that make his music so appealing to me compared to some other romantics. Music works differently on different people, for me it's not about dramatic turns or visual imagenary at all.

Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #86 on: September 22, 2015, 06:02:52 AM
What has telling a visual story has to do with musical substance really?

I think you calling it a song might be revealing of how you perceive music. Chopin was not a storyteller like some composers, that's true. He did not seem to care for program music at all. But that's one of the reasons that make his music so appealing to me compared to some other romantics. Music works differently on different people, for me it's not about dramatic turns or visual imagenary at all.
Chopin is pretty dramatic, IMO. I'm not sure what calling music without words a song might imply other than I'm ignorant / don't care about the distinction / I don't hang around a crowd who discusses music using rigorous terminology. I see how Chopin clearly beats Liszt in many areas , like pure aural aesthetics (generally) and emotional stuff. To be honest I don't listen to enough of either to have a developed/qualified opinion on which one is better. But many of Chopin's pieces that I listened to get boring easily because I'm not really feeling the sentiment.

Offline mjames

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #87 on: September 22, 2015, 06:29:14 AM
also beethoven had something in his sonatas that Chopinzo himself didn't. beethoven made a new type of sonata, while Chopin just twisted the original version. his sonatas were basically Allegro, Scherzo: Allegro, Lento, the Presto, a form that Beethoven commonly used in his early period. Beethoven turned the sonata into something that Liszt couldn't even make.


Shows how much you know about Chopin. Chopin didn't only experiment with the sonata form in his 'sonatas' but in other genres too. The most famous example for this is his ballades, and one that I havent seen as an example anywhere is the 3rd mazurka from the opus 50 set.

Many musicologists can argue that through these works (his balladdes), Chopin revolutionized and innovated the form in the same manner that Beethoven did in his time.


...And what's this about Liszt sonata not being able to make Beethoven style sonatas? lol what? Did Liszt tell you that he tried to compose Beethoven styled sonatas?

Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #88 on: September 22, 2015, 06:54:03 AM

Shows how much you know about Chopin. Chopin didn't only experiment with the sonata form in his 'sonatas' but in other genres too. The most famous example for this is his ballades, and one that I havent seen as an example anywhere is the 3rd mazurka from the opus 50 set.

Many musicologists can argue that through these works (his balladdes), Chopin revolutionized and innovated the form in the same manner that Beethoven did in his time.


...And what's this about Liszt sonata not being able to make Beethoven style sonatas? lol what? Did Liszt tell you that he tried to compose Beethoven styled sonatas?
I like Chopin's Ballades and agree that they have a really cohesive structure I think is more musically consistent than sonata form. But Beethoven birthed the Romantic Period. ImO  I would agree with the statement that Beethoven was a greater innovator. Look at the Grosse Fuge man

Offline mjames

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #89 on: September 22, 2015, 07:35:48 AM
I like Chopin's Ballades and agree that they have a really cohesive structure I think is more musically consistent than sonata form. But Beethoven birthed the Romantic Period. ImO  I would agree with the statement that Beethoven was a greater innovator. Look at the Grosse Fuge man


What I meant was that Chopin contributed a great deal to the sonata form. Though not in the same manner or style, Beethoven also contributed to the sonata form.

I was fighting against the assertion that Beethoven did X thing to an X genre/form that Chopin couldn't contribute to. In this case it was the sonata form..I would have agreed if he had used the symphonies or string quartets..well anything but piano as an example. Cause evidently, that's where Chopin didnt care to venture for. Though thats not really fair because we can't judge a composer for the things he didnt care to..but rather the things he did care for, the things he tried to do, and assess his trials and accomplishments.

...Many other composers paved the road to romanticism in music. Beethoven wasn't the only one, ESPECIALLY when you consider the genres he had little to no influence in (operas..for example).

Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #90 on: September 22, 2015, 07:48:21 AM

What I meant was that Chopin contributed a great deal to the sonata form. Though not in the same manner or style, Beethoven also contributed to the sonata form.

I was fighting against the assertion that Beethoven did X thing to an X genre/form that Chopin couldn't contribute to. In this case it was the sonata form..I would have agreed if he had used the symphonies or string quartets..well anything but piano as an example. Cause evidently, that's where Chopin didnt care to venture for. Though thats not really fair because we can't judge a composer for the things he didnt care to..but rather the things he did care for, the things he tried to do, and assess his trials and accomplishments.

...Many other composers paved the road to romanticism in music. Beethoven wasn't the only one, ESPECIALLY when you consider the genres he had little to no influence in (operas..for example).

Yes, but I have google search evidence confirming Beethoven is definitively considered the father of the Romantic Period  :P https://gyazo.com/8d2eda743e8336ec3cf23e043b235a32

Offline outin

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #91 on: September 22, 2015, 09:54:25 AM
Chopin is pretty dramatic, IMO. I'm not sure what calling music without words a song might imply other than I'm ignorant / don't care about the distinction / I don't hang around a crowd who discusses music using rigorous terminology. I see how Chopin clearly beats Liszt in many areas , like pure aural aesthetics (generally) and emotional stuff. To be honest I don't listen to enough of either to have a developed/qualified opinion on which one is better. But many of Chopin's pieces that I listened to get boring easily because I'm not really feeling the sentiment.

I see we also feel differently about what's dramatic...For me drama refers to the effects used by composers like Liszt and Beethoven, while Chopin is much more reserved and subtle in emotional content. When played in an overly sentimental way Chopin's music is ruined IMO, because I don't think it's meant to be sentimental at all. That's my perception.

But I must have misinterpreted your use of the word song above. I thought you used it on purpose referring to the idea of the piece telling a story as a song would (in words).

Offline mjames

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #92 on: September 22, 2015, 01:11:06 PM
I see we also feel differently about what's dramatic...For me drama refers to the effects used by composers like Liszt and Beethoven, while Chopin is much more reserved and subtle in emotional content. When played in an overly sentimental way Chopin's music is ruined IMO, because I don't think it's meant to be sentimental at all. That's my perception.

That's true, in general Chopin's music is far more reserved than either Liszt's or Beethoven's, but that method of approach doesn't work for all his works. How approach them depends on the work, and I don't see how you'll be able to pull of a convincing performance of the 1st 2nd or 4th ballade by being 'subtle,' because from what I see those works require the emotional aspects from the performer. Chopin was also pretty much a 'in your face' kind of emotional drama as you can see from looking at his op. 48 no. 1 nocturne, op. 16 rondo, op. 49 fantasie, 1 2nd 3rd scherzi, the ballades and much more...and imo playing them dramatically/overly sentimentally greatly benefits the performance.


Play the music not based on your preconceived notions, but on what you see in the music...

Offline outin

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #93 on: September 22, 2015, 02:38:28 PM
That's true, in general Chopin's music is far more reserved than either Liszt's or Beethoven's, but that method of approach doesn't work for all his works. How approach them depends on the work, and I don't see how you'll be able to pull of a convincing performance of the 1st 2nd or 4th ballade by being 'subtle,' because from what I see those works require the emotional aspects from the performer. Chopin was also pretty much a 'in your face' kind of emotional drama as you can see from looking at his op. 48 no. 1 nocturne, op. 16 rondo, op. 49 fantasie, 1 2nd 3rd scherzi, the ballades and much more...and imo playing them dramatically/overly sentimentally greatly benefits the performance.


Play the music not based on your preconceived notions, but on what you see in the music...

My notions actually came from listening to the music...lots of different versions. And they are a bit different to yours...as is my use if the concept subtle. Emotionality and sentimentality mean different things to me and I hear little sentimentality in Chopin...

But I must add that my perception of music is very personal and while I don't care about others' really, mine is not necessary any better...except IMO of course :D

Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #94 on: September 22, 2015, 07:05:28 PM
My notions actually came from listening to the music...lots of different versions. And they are a bit different to yours...as is my use if the concept subtle. Emotionality and sentimentality mean different things to me and I hear little sentimentality in Chopin...

But I must add that my perception of music is very personal and while I don't care about others' really, mine is not necessary any better...except IMO of course :D
Emotionality and sentimentality are relative IMO. Sentimental = less subtly emotional. Which composer would you consider sentimental relative to Chopin? I think I would consider Chopin sentimental relative to Bach. But they're actually pretty different, so I don't know.

Offline outin

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #95 on: September 22, 2015, 07:30:14 PM
Emotionality and sentimentality are relative IMO. Sentimental = less subtly emotional. Which composer would you consider sentimental relative to Chopin? I think I would consider Chopin sentimental relative to Bach. But they're actually pretty different, so I don't know.

Baroque music is seldom sentimental, thats' true :)

Rachmaninoff's concertos are a good example of sentimentality IMO. To the extend that I find it disturbing.

I am used to the use of these words for something completely different, not relative at all. Emotional content can be anything, negative or positive, while sentimentality refers to something appealing to certain types of emotions.

But anyway, when we discuss something so hard to define as our inner perceptions of music, it will be difficult to find common language :)



Offline visitor

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #96 on: September 22, 2015, 08:00:17 PM

Offline kevonthegreatpianist

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #97 on: September 22, 2015, 09:46:35 PM

then why dont you gtfo of this post??
I made an account and hadn't used it in a year. Welcome back, kevon.

Offline rubinsteinmad

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #98 on: September 23, 2015, 12:16:09 AM
Chopin gave out everything right from his Op.1 (rondo of swag) and Op.2 (variations of swag) Chopin really went hardcore when he reached Op.10, then went on steroids when he reached Op.50-60. i mean, he could beat the hungarian rhadssphys

screw autocorrect


No, Chopin wrote nothing technically harder than the Hungarian Rhapsody #6.

Besides, Liszt wrote FAR BETTER things than just the stupid old HR's.

Offline rubinsteinmad

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Re: Favorite Opus of Piano Music
Reply #99 on: September 23, 2015, 12:17:51 AM
If anyone is still wondering why most of the top PS contributors left this site, this thread here is your reason. The childishness is just simply appalling.

Actually, events usually have more than ONE reason.


BTW, I mean, I held my tongue when you called me a troll because I was asking which Concerto sounded better ::)
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