Favorite Opus of Piano Music

[rubinsteinmad]

What on earth? Yes, Mazeppa is a fine etude, but a composer can't "have an immunity to Chopin having a leg up on him" because of one etude. I could say the same thing about Chopin's winterwind or chromatique or thirds.

Winterwind is much less pianistic than Chasse-neige (well,unpianistic is not actually a bad thing, but many lazy Juillard graduates don't want to spend time playing a "unpianistic" piece)

Op. 25 6 is ugly, if that's the etude ur talking about.

But hey, Mazeppa is even uglier. But it's harder. (Even if you want to play it like a pro.)

[rubinsteinmad]

yeah, i think the mazeppa is list's greatest transcendal etude

No it's not.

[rubinsteinmad]

also beethoven had something in his sonatas that Chopinzo himself didn't. beethoven made a new type of sonata, while Chopin just twisted the original version. his sonatas were basically Allegro, Scherzo: Allegro, Lento, the Presto, a form that Beethoven commonly used in his early period. Beethoven turned the sonata into something that Liszt couldn't even make.

Liszt was too talented to write that crap.

[chopinlover01]

Your ignorance is quite disturbing; as is your quintuple post.

[rubinsteinmad]

Your ignorance is quite disturbing; as is your quintuple post.

Well, to tell the truth, Mazeppa IS harder than any of the Chopin Etudes. ANd Mazeppa isn't even Liszt's hardest etude.

Proof:
Here are Chopin's known Etudes:
Op. 10 nos. 1-12
Op. 25 #1-12
3 New Etudes

Here are some of Liszt's harder Etudes (because we're talking about that sh!t topic named hardness):
Douze Grandes Etudes
Transcedental Etudes: Mazeppa; Feux Follets; Wild Jagd; Chasse-neige
The First Version of the Paganini Etudes
La Campanella (well, not as hard as the Etudes listed above, but still, it's harder in a way than Chopin's Etudes )

Also, even though Unn Sospiro is more for the "intermediate pianists" and Chopin's are more for the "advanced", when I actually think about it, Un Sospiro is harder than most Chopin Etudes technically.

Proof:
Op. 10 #1, 2, 4, 11; Op. 25 #6, 11;
Those are the Etudes that even STAND A CHANCE in comparing to Un Sospiro in technical difficulty. OK, maybe Op. 25 #6 is harder, though

[pencilart3]

Op. 25 6 is ugly,

[rubinsteinmad]

U Have No Taste

[rubinsteinmad]

BTW, Wei Luo doesn't know how to select dresses for the Van Cliburn Jr. Maybe that came from practicing Op. 25 #6 way too much

[chopinlover01]

Well, to tell the truth, Mazeppa IS harder than any of the Chopin Etudes. ANd Mazeppa isn't even Liszt's hardest etude.

Proof:
Here are Chopin's known Etudes:
Op. 10 nos. 1-12
Op. 25 #1-12
3 New Etudes

Here are some of Liszt's harder Etudes (because we're talking about that sh!t topic named hardness):
Douze Grandes Etudes
Transcedental Etudes: Mazeppa; Feux Follets; Wild Jagd; Chasse-neige
The First Version of the Paganini Etudes
La Campanella (well, not as hard as the Etudes listed above, but still, it's harder in a way than Chopin's Etudes )

Also, even though Unn Sospiro is more for the "intermediate pianists" and Chopin's are more for the "advanced", when I actually think about it, Un Sospiro is harder than most Chopin Etudes technically.

Proof:
Op. 10 #1, 2, 4, 11; Op. 25 #6, 11;
Those are the Etudes that even STAND A CHANCE in comparing to Un Sospiro in technical difficulty. OK, maybe Op. 25 #6 is harder, though

Un Sospiro is intermediate for Liszt.
You conveniently left out Op 10 Nos 7, 8, and 10. And included 11 which isn't very hard compared to the others.
With Op. 25 you left out 25/12, which while playable requires a lot of endurance, 25/1 which requires a delicate touch like no other, 25/3 which is insane, 25/4, which is horrid on the left hand, 25/8, which is just torture, and 25/10 (need I say more?).

[pencilart3]

Well, to tell the truth, Mazeppa IS harder than any of the Chopin Etudes. ANd Mazeppa isn't even Liszt's hardest etude.

Proof:
Here are Chopin's known Etudes:
Op. 10 nos. 1-12
Op. 25 #1-12
3 New Etudes

Here are some of Liszt's harder Etudes (because we're talking about that sh!t topic named hardness):
Douze Grandes Etudes
Transcedental Etudes: Mazeppa; Feux Follets; Wild Jagd; Chasse-neige
The First Version of the Paganini Etudes
La Campanella (well, not as hard as the Etudes listed above, but still, it's harder in a way than Chopin's Etudes )

Also, even though Unn Sospiro is more for the "intermediate pianists" and Chopin's are more for the "advanced", when I actually think about it, Un Sospiro is harder than most Chopin Etudes technically.

Proof:
Op. 10 #1, 2, 4, 11; Op. 25 #6, 11;
Those are the Etudes that even STAND A CHANCE in comparing to Un Sospiro in technical difficulty. OK, maybe Op. 25 #6 is harder, though

LOL you think that op 10 no 11 is one of chopin's hardest etudes? My goodness! And what about 10/10? THAT's a good endurance test. Same with 25/10. Both endurance pieces. 10/8 and 10/7 aren't a walk in the park either. 25/4 is rough.

[swagmaster420x]

I would wager with fair confidence that at least half of Chopins etudes are more technically demanding than Un SosPiRo

[kevonthegreatpianist]

LOL you think that op 10 no 11 is one of chopin's hardest etudes? My goodness! And what about 10/10? THAT's a good endurance test. Same with 25/10. Both endurance pieces. 10/8 and 10/7 aren't a walk in the park either. 25/4 is rough.

10/11 is difficult, but 10/10 is god. same as 10/8, 10/7. 25/4 isn't that difficult, but it isn't easy. even 10/6 isn't that easy. 

ikr. 25/5 is about the most beautiful etude. and this isn't sarcasm.

Well, to tell the truth, Mazeppa IS harder than any of the Chopin Etudes. ANd Mazeppa isn't even Liszt's hardest etude.

Proof:
Here are Chopin's known Etudes:
Op. 10 nos. 1-12
Op. 25 #1-12
3 New Etudes

Here are some of Liszt's harder Etudes (because we're talking about that sh!t topic named hardness):
Douze Grandes Etudes
Transcedental Etudes: Mazeppa; Feux Follets; Wild Jagd; Chasse-neige
The First Version of the Paganini Etudes
La Campanella (well, not as hard as the Etudes listed above, but still, it's harder in a way than Chopin's Etudes )

Also, even though Unn Sospiro is more for the "intermediate pianists" and Chopin's are more for the "advanced", when I actually think about it, Un Sospiro is harder than most Chopin Etudes technically.

Proof:
Op. 10 #1, 2, 4, 11; Op. 25 #6, 11;
Those are the Etudes that even STAND A CHANCE in comparing to Un Sospiro in technical difficulty. OK, maybe Op. 25 #6 is harder, though

where are all of the other etudes? 10/3 has an advanced middle section, 10/5 is a pain in both hands, 10/7 is god, 10/8 is fricking hard, 10/10 is death, and 10/12 has a horrendous left hand. 25/1 is hard to get the right tone, 25/3 is Tartarus, 25/4 has a crap hard right hand, 25/5 is hard, 25/8 is death, 25/10 is even more death (prob harder than the ballades, well maybe not) 25/12 is very difficult, and the Db Major etude is very difficult to get the right touch. basically what chopinlover said

Un Sospiro is intermediate for Liszt.

i think everything for liszt is no higher than intermediate. you can give him 74358734957th notes on the 34758375934 BPM, and he'll play it easily

No, Chopin wrote nothing technically harder than the Hungarian Rhapsody #6.

well yeah

Your ignorance is quite disturbing; as is your quintuple post.

its her, like 10th now. 2 lazy 2 count

[swagmaster420x]

10/11 is difficult, but 10/10 is god. same as 10/8, 10/7. 25/4 isn't that difficult, but it isn't easy. even 10/6 isn't that easy. 
 ikr. 25/5 is about the most beautiful etude. and this isn't sarcasm.
 where are all of the other etudes? 10/3 has an advanced middle section, 10/5 is a pain in both hands, 10/7 is god, 10/8 is fricking hard, 10/10 is death, and 10/12 has a horrendous left hand. 25/1 is hard to get the right tone, 25/3 is Tartarus, 25/4 has a crap hard right hand, 25/5 is hard, 25/8 is death, 25/10 is even more death (prob harder than the ballades, well maybe not) 25/12 is very difficult, and the Db Major etude is very difficult to get the right touch. basically what chopinlover said
 i think everything for liszt is no higher than intermediate. you can give him 74358734957th notes on the 34758375934 BPM, and he'll play it easily
 well yeah
 its her, like 10th now. 2 lazy 2 count

Edgy

[rubinsteinmad]

LOL you think that op 10 no 11 is one of chopin's hardest etudes? My goodness! And what about 10/10? THAT's a good endurance test. Same with 25/10. Both endurance pieces. 10/8 and 10/7 aren't a walk in the park either. 25/4 is rough.

And so... you think that they're harder than the Liszt Etudes I listed? (Forgot Un Sospiro, I was only comparing it to the easier Chopoin Etudes [I. e. most of them]).

The reason I listed 10 #11 is because it's so hard to make it sound musical, because you have all those leaps, and it will sound BAD if you don't do them quick. But I've never actually played it, let alone practiced it, so I wouldn't know. All I know is that all my sightreading attempts for it turned into failure

[briansaddleback]

Liszt was more harmonically inventive. But in terms of rhythmic clarity, melodic ideas, consistency in the quality of his music, Liszt doesn't even touch Chopin. You think the Chopin etudes are crap? You should go write a set of etudes that have more poetic vision then. Liszt wrote some GREAT works, but he was a complete hit and miss composer, and he missed the target a lot more than he hit it . Chopin on the other hand, put out masterpiece after masterpiece after masterpiece. He never went through a weak compositional period and almost every single piano composition of his is masterfully crafted to the highest level of poetry. I can't say the same thing about Liszt. Virtually every Chopin melody is memorable, even his rhythmic contour can be remembered even without the musical tones most of the time. Also, Chopin almost never wrote difficult things for the sake of being difficult. You cannot make a Chopin etude technically easier without it losing its musical quality. The Liszt Transcendental Etudes that are played today are REVISIONS of old etudes Liszt wrote with the same exact melodic ideas, but he just added an extra layer of virtuosic technique to make it even harder. The old etudes were great as they were, so the fluff Liszt put in the etudes later on doesn't even add to the musical quality. Every technical difficulty in Chopin's music has musical meaning (except maybe some of the early works that were in a more " brilliante " style.) but so much of Liszt's music is just superficial. There are some great pieces by Liszt, like the B minor sonata, Sonetto 104, and the valse oubliee are brilliant. I can just say that for me personally, Liszt's music provides very little emotional satisfaction. Most of it was written to make money and please the crowd. Chopin had other things in mind.

- AJ

Nailed it. Thanks.

[rubinsteinmad]

Nailed it. Thanks.

You people just dont understand 

[chopinlover01]

You people just dont understand

...how useless it is to necro this thread?
Wait, I do understand that..

[abel2]

i should change my last name into chopin. that way, i could be like *bruh, I'm a chopin descendant!

There's a realtor up here who's last name is Chopin. She pronounces it "Choppin" though.

[pencilart3]

Chopin's op. 9 is great btw.

[briansaddleback]

What's all the debate about whose etudes are harder , Liszt or Chopin's to say as a gauge which is better?  What is the point?
How about gear it towards, which etudes are the more beautiful?
Here, I'll start it..
Chopin's are .
End.

[pencilart3]

@brian I totally agree. Yes, 4, 8, 11, and 12 of Liszt's are pretty beast, but Nos. 1-27 of Chopin's are even more beast.

[rubinsteinmad]

What's all the debate about whose etudes are harder , Liszt or Chopin's to say as a gauge which is better?  What is the point?
How about gear it towards, which etudes are the more beautiful?
Here, I'll start it..
Chopin's are .
End.

Wow, you're really one-minded.


That is like saying "Are Beethoven, Mozart, or Haydn Sonatas more beautiful?"

Obviously, the answer would be Mozart or Haydn for many people, but that is because they lack the sophistication of Beethoven. Chopin Etudes, in general, lack the sophistication shown in the Liszt's Etudes.


To get down to the point, Liszt Etudes require a more sophisticated listener, bringing out the true meaning of "Etude."

[rubinsteinmad]

Besides, Liszt Etudes are every bit as beautiful as the Chopin Etudes. (Except Op. 10 #9, 25 1, 5 and 25 7, which shouldnt even be called "Etude". As for Op. 10 #5, that's about the same grade level as Czerny's  Studies.)

[pencilart3]

Opus 10 number 5 is very difficult.

[preludetr]

Wow, you're really one-minded.


That is like saying "Are Beethoven, Mozart, or Haydn Sonatas more beautiful?"

Obviously, the answer would be Mozart or Haydn for many people, but that is because they lack the sophistication of Beethoven. Chopin Etudes, in general, lack the sophistication shown in the Liszt's Etudes.


To get down to the point, Liszt Etudes require a more sophisticated listener, bringing out the true meaning of "Etude."

 

[rubinsteinmad]

I think the reason many people hate Liszt is because they're jealous that they cannot handle Liszt.


This was the case with the b!tch teacher. She was SO jealous of Liszt players, you could tell.

Any Chopin Etude is harder than any Liszt Etude. Its true!

[rubinsteinmad]

Opus 10 number 5 is very difficult.

so are czerny studies

[chopinlover01]

Not in the same way Chopin etudes are.

[pencilart3]

Not in the same way Chopin etudes are.

Exactly. Chopin was the first to turn etudes into something other than finger exercises, and that must be shown in every single etude.

[rubinsteinmad]

Exactly. Chopin was the first to turn etudes into something other than finger exercises, and that must be shown in every single etude.

Czerny Etudes are not just finger excersizes, either!
(Actually, they are more for concert than the ugly Op. 10 #2.)


Besides, the early Chopin Etudes are very exercise-like, with the exception of Op. 10 #3, which isnt much of a technical study at all.  Chopin dedicated hem to Liszt, probably hoping that Liszt would use them as warmups 

[rubinsteinmad]

Anyways, imo the only Chopin Etude as beautiful as Liszt's Un Sospiro is the Op. 25 #7 and arguably Op. 10 #9. (Which is not much of an "etude", even compared to Un Sospiro)

Yes, Op. 25 #5 is beautiful, but imo its not as beautiful as Un Sospiro

[pencilart3]

But what about 25/1, 2, and 11?

[rubinsteinmad]

But what about 25/1, 2, and 11?

Ooops I forgot about 25/1. Its beautiful (but I prefer Un Sospiro).

Op. 25 #11 is beautiful in a different way... when I meant "beautiful" I meant "lyrical and beautiful".
(I dont like Op. 25 #2 as much as the other Chopin Etudes; the harmonies are beautiful, but I dont like the right hand part)

[briansaddleback]

Wow, you're really one-minded.


That is like saying "Are Beethoven, Mozart, or Haydn Sonatas more beautiful?"

Obviously, the answer would be Mozart or Haydn for many people, but that is because they lack the sophistication of Beethoven. Chopin Etudes, in general, lack the sophistication shown in the Liszt's Etudes.


To get down to the point, Liszt Etudes require a more sophisticated listener, bringing out the true meaning of "Etude."

One minded? Who you?
I'm sorry but your reply here has all sorts of fallacy from circular reasoning to irrelevant conclusion. Which just tells me not to debate here then.

[outin]

Czerny Etudes are not just finger excersizes, either!
(Actually, they are more for concert than the ugly Op. 10 #2.)

10#2 is lovely! 

[pencilart3]

10#2 is lovely! 

YES!

[chopinlover01]

Czerny Etudes are not just finger excersizes, either!

Yeah... They are. There is lots of actual music by Czerny that's delightful, but his Op. 299 and the other sets are not what he should be known by.

Besides, the early Chopin Etudes are very exercise-like, with the exception of Op. 10 #3, which isnt much of a technical study at all.  Chopin dedicated hem to Liszt, probably hoping that Liszt would use them as warmups 

What're you talking about? Early Chopin etudes? Was there some first draft we didn't play, just like Liszt? Nothing I'm aware of.
Also, 10/3 is a study of projecting the melody with weak fingers; also remember it was originally marked "Vivace", and Chopin later add "ma na troppo".

[rubinsteinmad]

One minded? Who you?
I'm sorry but your reply here has all sorts of fallacy from circular reasoning to irrelevant conclusion. Which just tells me not to debate here then.

I agree, this forum isnt for memberswho attempt to  hide their jealousy in remarks such as "Chopin Etudes are more beautiful".
Seriously, those who don't have the fingers for Liszt shouldn't be jealous of Liszt.


P.S. Please note: This board is primarily intended for professional pianists and piano teachers as well as piano students and amateures at an advanced level. If you are not part of this group, consider posting in the Student's Corner instead.

[rubinsteinmad]

What're you talking about? Early Chopin etudes? Was there some first draft we didn't play, just like Liszt? Nothing I'm aware of.
Also, 10/3 is a study of projecting the melody with weak fingers; also remember it was originally marked "Vivace", and Chopin later add "ma na troppo".

I was talking about the Etudes Op. 10 #1-8.
Of course, Op. 10 #1, 5, and 8 stand out, but you can always find a Czerny approximate-equivalent somewhere.

If Op. 10 #3 is a true study, then almost every romantic work of considerable difficulty is a study.

[rubinsteinmad]

.

[rubinsteinmad]

One minded? Who you?
I'm sorry but your reply here has all sorts of fallacy from circular reasoning to irrelevant conclusion. Which just tells me not to debate here then.

If we are arguing about fallacies, then yours has them as well.

Whose are more beautiful?
Chopin's. End.

Dear, anyone with considerable musical background can argue against this, ce n'est pas?

[rubinsteinmad]

.

[pencilart3]

*clears his throat*

So yes, Mendelssohn's opus 19 is great, as well as Tchaikovsky's opus 37!

[ahinton]

amateures

Hmmm...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Brat should really pay attenshun to her spellin.

Thal

[chopinlover01]

And you, perhaps, to your blood-alcohol level? 

[outin]

And you, perhaps, to your blood-alcohol level? 

I'm sure Thal is very careful not to let it get too low

[stoudemirestat]

Why do people have to measure composers against each other and make absolute statements about quality? Why do people have to act as of their opinions of a piece/composer are factual, even if there are many examples of others who disagree? Why do people have to insist on works of art being greater than others, when others who are just as 'qualified' prefer the 'lesser' piece? There are so many variables that go into it -from personal taste to the intent of the composer- that simply make these value judgements nonsensical and meaningless, not to mention frequently arrogant and condescending.

Every time you do this you belittle and claim superiority over the perceptions of thousands of others.

[briansaddleback]

Why do people have to measure composers against each other and make absolute statements about quality? Why do people have to act as of their opinions of a piece/composer are factual, even if there are many examples of others who disagree? Why do people have to insist on works of art being greater than others, when others who are just as 'qualified' prefer the 'lesser' piece? There are so many variables that go into it -from personal taste to the intent of the composer- that simply make these value judgements nonsensical and meaningless, not to mention frequently arrogant and condescending.

Every time you do this you belittle and claim superiority over the perceptions of thousands of others.

lol..I'm totally with you here.

[panolof]

Why do people have to measure composers against each other and make absolute statements about quality? Why do people have to act as of their opinions of a piece/composer are factual, even if there are many examples of others who disagree? Why do people have to insist on works of art being greater than others, when others who are just as 'qualified' prefer the 'lesser' piece? There are so many variables that go into it -from personal taste to the intent of the composer- that simply make these value judgements nonsensical and meaningless, not to mention frequently arrogant and condescending.

Every time you do this you belittle and claim superiority over the perceptions of thousands of others.

After having read all 148 replies to this forum, I can conclude that this post prevails in terms of importance of judgement above the rest.
But ... There always has to be a but ... I know I've left this forum having gained some insight into perceptions of composers in this modern day and age. It is in Chopin's favour as the only person arguing for Liszt was rubinsteinmad. Very, very ignorant at times. I mean you seemed to be siding on both sides at times. I can see your musical expanse is great and I commend you for that. But for god's sake "grammar properly", people won't belittle you then. Chopinlover too, don't force your point at rubinsteinmad ... 150 posts back and forth and opinions hadn't moved in the slightest.

Personally, my favorite is Chopin, and whenever I hear that Liszt was equal or better than Chopin, I remain quiet. I know a substantial amount on Chopin, but very little on Liszt.
Liszt's works are excessive and that seems to put me off.

If you can say why one composers better than other. Then mega kudos for you. It seems most of you are giving general statements unsupported by anything.
I mean rubinsteinmad said Liszt's music is easier perform technically than Chopin's music(page one of this topic) ... Based on what?

This forum was great, don't debate for the sake of it.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something(...150 posts).
-Plato