Fluid wrist motions in Liszt's Liebestraume

[alpacinator1]

Back in 2005 or so, the user Bernhard posted a lot of wonderful information about wrist fluidity, anatomically natural motions, and so on. I have been trying to apply this in my own playing, and I thought it might be helpful to start a discussion about it.

In Liszt's Liebestraume no. 3, there are a few sections which at first glance seem very unpianistic, so I think it's very important to find some anatomically natural movements for them.

Here is the first section I had in mind:



In order to transfer from the 5th finger on B (circled in red) to the 4th finger on F#, the "obvious" thing to do is just make a jump, which will be very hard to keep legato.

I think a cartwheel movement is in order here. So, I found that if I first "preload" my elbow so it's pointing to the treble side, hit the B, then swing my elbow out toward the bass side, it becomes easy to hit the F with the 4th finger. The problem is that now my hand is shifted such that my arm is not behind it any more, so I have to very quickly move my elbow back behind my hand to hit the next few notes. That motion feels a bit awkward. I'm wondering if anyone else can weigh in and talk about what kind of solutions they came up for this section.

Here is the next section:



This poses a similar problem, but in this case it is even harder because you must play an octave and then transition to the next note. Is there an anatomically natural movement for this?

[dcstudio]

are you doing something different there than jumping?  I hit the octaves then dive in the middle.. it
makes it easy to have a different texture for the inner voices.. I don't really think of transitioning there at all ---more like switching between parts. 

[alpacinator1]

are you doing something different there than jumping?  I hit the octaves then dive in the middle.. it
makes it easy to have a different texture for the inner voices.. I don't really think of transitioning there at all ---more like switching between parts. 

Okay, fair enough. That may well be what Liszt intended, since it seems like there isn't really anything else to do.

[dcstudio]

Okay, fair enough. That may well be what Liszt intended, since it seems like there isn't really anything else to do.

you will get used to Liszt after a while...  lol.   it's really hard but not really as hard as it looks..   but if you are more of a Baroque/Classical era player... it can be pretty confusing.  You can forget all that learning to connect everything --- just throw it right out the window...  have an open mind and play it the way it sounds best...  This was my first Liszt piece... I felt like I there was nothing I couldn't play after I got this one in my fingers

and I have never in my life seen it played any differently..  if you find a vid on youtube that show's something else.. post it   because that is something I would want to see.

[adodd81802]

OK a couple things to think about. Apologies for the long text. Also if there is anything you disagree with please feel free to comment or correct me.

Firstly you mention about legato. its clear in the second example unless you have hands that can span two octaves its physically impossible to hold the octave for the 2 beats while playing the other notes...

So the first thing which I think can apply to both examples here is the score indicates that the pedal is down throughout... why are you worrying about your fingers being so legato... its going to be legato anyway. whether the octave or a single note, if you have smaller hands or shorter fingers, leave that key earlier and use the pedal. If you cannot hold the notes down without stretching or awkward movements stop hoping for an answer thats going to allow you perform this piece the way you think the score is telling you to perform.

Note that what is written is how it should sound and not strict rules on how you should play. Take this example. press the octave down for 2 beats on its own press nothing else no pedal.

Now hold down the pedal press the octave and bring your fingers off immediately,  with the pedal down for 2 beats. is there any difference? If played properly I doubt it. Liszt in particular had exceptionally large hands, What feels natural for him certainly wouldnt for a lot of other pianists.

Now to the first example. You can definitely consider jumping. The tie is on the 2nd note so the emphasis seems to be on sounding that out. However if you simply pressed that key with just a small emphasis I think you can use the following fingers 5,2,1,2,1,2 is fine?  or 5,2,1,3,1,2? The pedal will do the rest for you. On the 2nd bar starting on A you could consider 5,1,3,2,3 And i think depending on your hands you could even hold down the 1 and still reach the 3,2,3. if you are concerned about holding the tie down.

Lastly coming back to the octaves, I agree with the suggested fingering 2/3 for larger hands or even 2/4 for smaller hands. Again dont concern yourself with holding the octave down, immediately jump off and move to the B. the 2 allows you to get their quickest and the jump should be a lateral one. I cant explain the momvement fully over message but its a combintation of a rotation of the forearm and a movement of the whole arm with the hand to physically jump to the 2.

Hope that helps.