The Sense of Phrasing

[rubinsteinmad]

Hi people,

  Before I learned from that b!tch teacher, I had a natural sense of phrase. However, now, my instincts are different or nonexistent. I feel like I've no musical sense. Recently today, I figured out a big part of this was because my sense of phrasing was now lacking. It takes me some time and experimenting to figure out phrasing, which previously came naturally. Sometimes I just can't figure it out, and I listen to the great masters. However, there will definitely be a time when I am playing some obscure piece where very few people play, and Ill be on my own. It is really frustrating.

Has anyone had similar problems? How did you solve it? Can it be solved?

Thanks,
Emily

[outin]

Hi people,

  Before I learned from that b!tch teacher, I had a natural sense of phrase. However, now, my instincts are different or nonexistent. I feel like I've no musical sense. Recently today, I figured out a big part of this was because my sense of phrasing was now lacking. It takes me some time and experimenting to figure out phrasing, which previously came naturally. Sometimes I just can't figure it out, and I listen to the great masters. However, there will definitely be a time when I am playing some obscure piece where very few people play, and Ill be on my own. It is really frustrating.

Has anyone had similar problems? How did you solve it? Can it be solved?

Thanks,
Emily

Have you tried singing?

[hardy_practice]

Phrasing is something that has to be taught because we are unaware of how amazingly talented our phrasing is in speech (prosody).  In other words, someone must hold the mirror up to you.  Also baroque phrasing is so artificial (in the good sense) it's a life study.  

[louispodesta]

Have you tried singing?

Very well said.

My first instrument as a child was my voice.  Absent the U.S., throughout the entire world, it is pretty much the same for every one else and has been since the beginning of time.

That is why, when the few times I am asked about what age to start piano lessons, I instead recommend that young children join a choir.  There is not a lead pop/jazz vocalist or opera/art song artist that did not start out that way.

A dude by the name of Busoni said (paraphrasing):  if you cannot sing, then you cannot play.

So, if you are really serious about solving your problem, then get you arse in a choir, and if you have the money, start taking voice lessons.  With a competent voice teacher, they can teach you volumes of what exactly the art of phrasing actually is.

[schumaniac]

Singing helps a lot... even if you're not in a choir, usually your voice "knows" the best way to phrase a line.

One thing:
Notes don't increase/decrease "linearly" - it's not like each note is louder than the one before it in a crescendo. Rhythmically, groups of 4 have more of an emphasis on the 1st and 3rd units, and not so much on the 2nd...
You might think this is stupid advice but if you are consciously aware of it then it'll help you (I had a struggle like this when I was playing the Chopin op. 10 no. 3- "how could I not do justice to this beautiful melody??" then I figured it out...)

[rubinsteinmad]

Singing helps a lot... even if you're not in a choir, usually your voice "knows" the best way to phrase a line.

One thing:
Notes don't increase/decrease "linearly" - it's not like each note is louder than the one before it in a crescendo. Rhythmically, groups of 4 have more of an emphasis on the 1st and 3rd units, and not so much on the 2nd...
You might think this is stupid advice but if you are consciously aware of it then it'll help you (I had a struggle like this when I was playing the Chopin op. 10 no. 3- "how could I not do justice to this beautiful melody??" then I figured it out...)

OMG I JUST listened to Ignoshina play 10 3! OMG! SHE IS AMAZING!!!!!

Ignoshina is so underrated. Even though she is considered to be da bomb at many famous Chopin pieces, barely anyone has heard of her playing anything else.

Just so you know, she competed in the Finals of the Queen Elisabeth,

[dcstudio]

Hi people,

  Before I learned from that b!tch teacher, I had a natural sense of phrase. However, now, my instincts are different or nonexistent. I feel like I've no musical sense. Recently today, I figured out a big part of this was because my sense of phrasing was now lacking. It takes me some time and experimenting to figure out phrasing, which previously came naturally. Sometimes I just can't figure it out, and I listen to the great masters. However, there will definitely be a time when I am playing some obscure piece where very few people play, and Ill be on my own. It is really frustrating.

Has anyone had similar problems? How did you solve it? Can it be solved?

Thanks,
Emily

Could you tell me in what way or what specifically this teacher did to destroy your sense of phrasing... I don't doubt that it happened...  but it would help if I could understand where the damage was done.   Often times an incompetent teacher can leave the student so unsure of their own musical instincts that they simply convince themselves that they have none at all.

 I have had a lot of experience "undoing" that kind of damage... the good news is that your sense of phrasing hasn't been lost... just temporarily forgotten...    singing is GREAT for that and will help you remember --but often times there is a lot of miscommunication between bad teachers and their students...  terms are not defined properly and  very important concepts are either left out completely or are not presented in a way that the student understands...  the student believes that they are doing things the way they were taught... or "the right way" but in fact they are not.

So please share more about why you feel this way.    maybe I can help.

[rubinsteinmad]

Could you tell me in what way or what specifically this teacher did to destroy your sense of phrasing... I don't doubt that it happened...  but it would help if I could understand where the damage was done.   Often times an incompetent teacher can leave the student so unsure of their own musical instincts that they simply convince themselves that they have none at all.

 I have had a lot of experience "undoing" that kind of damage... the good news is that your sense of phrasing hasn't been lost... just temporarily forgotten...    singing is GREAT for that and will help you remember --but often times there is a lot of miscommunication between bad teachers and their students...  terms are not defined properly and  very important concepts are either left out completely or are not presented in a way that the student understands...  the student believes that they are doing things the way they were taught... or "the right way" but in fact they are not.

So please share more about why you feel this way.    maybe I can help.

1. The teacher makes me play along with everything that she can play (poorly, though.)
2. One of the pieces that REALLY damaged me was the Ballade #4 by Chopin. She made me play with her for a BUNCH of times, and it destroyed me. In an earlier post, I mentioned a flowing section and a chorale section that she totally destroyed in me.
3. I tried to counter this by playing, with the (noise-cancelling) headphones on, with Zimerman. This temporarily worked for a few minutes after I played with it, but after some time, I would forget the sense of music once more.
4. The teacher kept on repeating "You're not allowed to do that in Chopin! When he doesn't write ritard, DONT DO RITARD!" And stuff like that
5. Another thing to note was that the lessons were on Friday nights. Scentific studies show that if you learn before you go to sleep, you will be repeating what you learned during your sleep.

I recently went to a camp where a great teacher was talking to me about instincts (in music), and said that a great master told her that instincts were taught. This gave me some hope. Maybe a could relearn my instincts! I'm still in that process.



As for the singing, I don't know why, but before, phrasing came naturally, even though I never had to sing the melodies. And also sometimes, there are pieces without true "melodies", so what would I do then?

Thanks for the advice, though,

Emily

[schumaniac]

1. The teacher makes me play along with everything that she can play (poorly, though.)
2. One of the pieces that REALLY damaged me was the Ballade #4 by Chopin. She made me play with her for a BUNCH of times, and it destroyed me. In an earlier post, I mentioned a flowing section and a chorale section that she totally destroyed in me.
3. I tried to counter this by playing, with the (noise-cancelling) headphones on, with Zimerman. This temporarily worked for a few minutes after I played with it, but after some time, I would forget the sense of music once more.
4. The teacher kept on repeating "You're not allowed to do that in Chopin! When he doesn't write ritard, DONT DO RITARD!" And stuff like that
5. Another thing to note was that the lessons were on Friday nights. Scentific studies show that if you learn before you go to sleep, you will be repeating what you learned during your sleep.

I recently went to a camp where a great teacher was talking to me about instincts (in music), and said that a great master told her that instincts were taught. This gave me some hope. Maybe a could relearn my instincts! I'm still in that process.



As for the singing, I don't know why, but before, phrasing came naturally, even though I never had to sing the melodies. And also sometimes, there are pieces without true "melodies", so what would I do then?

Thanks for the advice, though,

Emily

12 year-olds learning Ballade 4? WHAT IS THIS MADNESS

Playing w/ a teacher is pretty weird IMO but I've done that a couple of times (not the teacher being "Play the notes together w/ my playing" but usually me playing and the teacher randomly "joining in" on the 2nd piano).

Anyway, just use your "inner ear" or the Zimerman recording. (Btw, if you're experimenting too much with purely physical approaches, that's not good, b/c everything you do in piano is striving to get a good sound, not striving to do some particular thing with your hand...)

[rubinsteinmad]

12 year-olds learning Ballade 4? WHAT IS THIS MADNESS

Playing w/ a teacher is pretty weird IMO but I've done that a couple of times (not the teacher being "Play the notes together w/ my playing" but usually me playing and the teacher randomly "joining in" on the 2nd piano).

Anyway, just use your "inner ear" or the Zimerman recording. (Btw, if you're experimenting too much with purely physical approaches, that's not good, b/c everything you do in piano is striving to get a good sound, not striving to do some particular thing with your hand...)

No, I experiment with my ear, not my hand. I only focus on my hand when I want good touch, which is not a top priority right now, as you can tell.

[rubinsteinmad]

BTW, I started it at 11, and I started getting worse at 12

[outin]

Just some food of thought to you:
Have you considered that maybe your sense of phrasing simply wasn't enough in the first place? I mean if you neglected rhythmical precision and good tone with your phrasing, then you just may have to break it to pieces again to build something better... I know it's hard to do, but sometimes it's the only way to really good playing. I too felt like losing much of the "musicality" in my playing when my teacher made me work so hard on the technical side of playing.

[pianoplunker]

Hi people,

  Before I learned from that b!tch teacher, I had a natural sense of phrase. However, now, my instincts are different or nonexistent. I feel like I've no musical sense. Recently today, I figured out a big part of this was because my sense of phrasing was now lacking. It takes me some time and experimenting to figure out phrasing, which previously came naturally. Sometimes I just can't figure it out, and I listen to the great masters. However, there will definitely be a time when I am playing some obscure piece where very few people play, and Ill be on my own. It is really frustrating.

Has anyone had similar problems? How did you solve it? Can it be solved?

Thanks,
Emily

It looks like you might be in a slump. something which happens from time to time even to the best of the best, whether it is music, sports, or any other activity which requires skill and focus.
Perhaps playing more advanced pieces combined with a changing  approach might be causing the question. You cant really solve what comes naturally to you, but it could evolve into something far better, and still be natural. Takes time and speed bumps.

[pianoplunker]

BTW, I started it at 11, and I started getting worse at 12

Dont forget the things that got better.
sometimes the best thing you can do with a piece you have practiced diligently is to put it aside for a little while and learn some other music. Kind of like when a loaf of bread is cooked it must be taken out of the oven and let sit for some time before it is actually ready.

[dcstudio]

1. The teacher makes me play along with everything that she can play (poorly, though.)
2. One of the pieces that REALLY damaged me was the Ballade #4 by Chopin. She made me play with her for a BUNCH of times, and it destroyed me. In an earlier post, I mentioned a flowing section and a chorale section that she totally destroyed in me.
3. I tried to counter this by playing, with the (noise-cancelling) headphones on, with Zimerman. This temporarily worked for a few minutes after I played with it, but after some time, I would forget the sense of music once more.
4. The teacher kept on repeating "You're not allowed to do that in Chopin! When he doesn't write ritard, DONT DO RITARD!" And stuff like that
5. Another thing to note was that the lessons were on Friday nights. Scentific studies show that if you learn before you go to sleep, you will be repeating what you learned during your sleep.

I recently went to a camp where a great teacher was talking to me about instincts (in music), and said that a great master told her that instincts were taught. This gave me some hope. Maybe a could relearn my instincts! I'm still in that process.



As for the singing, I don't know why, but before, phrasing came naturally, even though I never had to sing the melodies. And also sometimes, there are pieces without true "melodies", so what would I do then?

Thanks for the advice, though,

Emily

oh... I am so sorry..    you have no idea how many times I cringed while reading that.   She did exactly what I had hoped she didn't..  she strong armed you... and she did it while you were playing... ouch!!   You are really never more mentally vulnerable to suggestion than when you are sitting at the piano playing in front of a teacher-- especially one who is impossible to please.  

then--just to make matters worse she forced you to play along with her... on pieces she really didn't know well...  damn.

I will restate that you have not lost your sense of phrasing...  it is alive and well somewhere in that brain of yours...  and that is a fact.  

If I am right... way down deep in there...  you feel unsure of this--- like maybe you are being reactive that maybe you were the one who was wrong...  that this is a TEACHER...  the associations we have to that word are mighty powerful.   It's perfectly NORMAL for you to feel that way.

Well I am a teacher... for more than 20 years...  what you are describing is not good teaching... it's not teaching at all really.   Making you play along over and over on a Chopin Ballade... is fostering a weakness where there was none... which is why you decided to play along with Zimmerman---because she has temporarily hindered your ability to trust yourself.  

Your head is swimming at the moment because at some point you trusted this teacher... and that trust was obviously misplaced..   this is also big part of why you are not trusting yourself...  

you will recover...  when you hear that teachers voice in your head it is causing a big emotional response... be aware that it is not real.  

Also ....  you were absolutely RIGHT to leave this lady...   please feel no regret or guilt for that... it will only slow you down.  

Forgive her...  because in the end...  YOU will be a far greater musician than this teacher could ever hope to be.  

You did learn a very VALUABLE lesson from all of this crap...  so it wasn't a complete waste of time.   NO teacher will ever pull that on you again... that's for sure.  Be happy in that regard.

I am very impressed by you for recognizing a bad situation and taking steps to get out of it... so many never do...then 20 years later they rant and rave about how bad their instruction was... it happens on PS all the time..

I commend you on taking control of your own music education.  Good job!