Understanding the Chopin Polonaise-Fantasy

[schumaniac]

So, since the Chopin Competition has been going on, I tried to make a concerted effort to listen to the Polonaise-Fantasy through and understand it "for once" - but this didn't work well.. So I'm curious- have any of you played this work or have any you known this work intimately? I'm interested in your take on it- how it fits into Chopin's life, what it means to you, how you feel when you play it... so on and so forth.

thanks

(and here's my current impression of the piece, in small text so as to not take up space:)
This was my first time trying to grasp the work. The hardest thing to understand for me was its structure. It modulates from key to key, isn't unified by any particular theme- only suggestions of past "utterances" and passionate, ascending sequences that seem to be abandoned later. Then there is a passionate outburst at the end- but where did it come from? I don't know. Before, Chopin was just being his "reflective," "lyrical" self. There are many beautiful moments but I don't understand the logic that connects each movement.

[rubinsteinmad]

So, since the Chopin Competition has been going on, I tried to make a concerted effort to listen to the Polonaise-Fantasy through and understand it "for once" - but this didn't work well.. So I'm curious- have any of you played this work or have any you known this work intimately? I'm interested in your take on it- how it fits into Chopin's life, what it means to you, how you feel when you play it... so on and so forth.

thanks

(and here's my current impression of the piece, in small text so as to not take up space:)
This was my first time trying to grasp the work. The hardest thing to understand for me was its structure. It modulates from key to key, isn't unified by any particular theme- only suggestions of past "utterances" and passionate, ascending sequences that seem to be abandoned later. Then there is a passionate outburst at the end- but where did it come from? I don't know. Before, Chopin was just being his "reflective," "lyrical" self. There are many beautiful moments but I don't understand the logic that connects each movement.

OMG I couldn't understand the piece either! I thought Kate Liu kind of cleared some of it up, though. Same with the Sonata #3. (OMG I love that piece now because of that little girl...)

[schumaniac]

OMG I couldn't understand the piece either! I thought Kate Liu kind of cleared some of it up, though. Same with the Sonata #3. (OMG I love that piece now because of that little girl...)

hahaha I should try listening to hers then!

I always loved the Sonata 3... I forgot whose playing "did it" for me. I think it was Trifonov though; absolutely AMAZING

[rubinsteinmad]

hahaha I should try listening to hers then!

I always loved the Sonata 3... I forgot whose playing "did it" for me. I think it was Trifonov though; absolutely AMAZING

Ehh I listened to Trifonov a few weeks ago, and I was like meh

It cleared up a little bit (similar to Kate Liu's Op. 61), but I still thought it was a useless Beethovenist piece.

[ajlongspiano]

You know, I don't even think Chopin really understood it haha. While composing it he wrote a letter to his publisher stating: " I am writing something new which I don't really know what to call " (referring to the Polonaise Fantasy)

[pencilart3]

The polonaise fantasy certainly isn't my favorite of Chopin's works

[schumaniac]

so it's not just me! Why do so many people program it in the Chopin Competition though?

[ajlongspiano]

The polonaise fantasy certainly isn't my favorite of Chopin's works

It usually isn't among the youngsters like you, Schumaniac, and Emily..

[pencilart3]

It usually isn't among the youngsters like you, Schumaniac, and Emily..

Youngster? I'm just a few months behind you, mister!

[rubinsteinmad]

Youngster? I'm just a few months behind you, mister!

[pencilart3]

Emily you are several years behind both of us.

[rubinsteinmad]

Emily you are several years behind both of us.

news to me

Emily

tu es si stupide

[ajlongspiano]

Emily or should I say Eric?

[pencilart3]

tu es si stupide

Tu eres estupido! Yo no ablo mucho espanol, pero tu eres ESTUPIDO. Un rojo pollo muy loco.

[schumaniac]

Tu eres estupido! Yo no ablo mucho espanol, pero tu eres ESTUPIDO. Un rojo pollo muy loco.

Jejeje, finalmente tengo una oportunidad para hablar en español... estudié la idioma por dos años.

[pencilart3]

Jejeje, finalmente tengo una oportunidad para hablar en español... estudié la idioma por dos años.

You probably used auto translate. I didn't.

[rubinsteinmad]

Jejeje, finalmente tengo una oportunidad para hablar en español... estudié la idioma por dos años.

Le langue espagnol seront interdits si Donald Trump deviant president. (Il ne deviendra pas president).

Chinois est la plus grande langue. Anglais est le meilleur langue.

[dcstudio]

yo  vivi en Miami, Florida hasta sinco anos ---todo el gente hablan espanol    yo puedo decir unas pocas palabras

soy una gringa pero a menos estoy tratando hablar espanol

[ajlongspiano]

Now I feel really left out.. lol

[rubinsteinmad]

Now I feel really left out.. lol

对不起，老兄

[pencilart3]

对不起，老兄

ALL RIGHT THAT CONFIRMS IT AUTO TRANSLATE

[rubinsteinmad]

ALL RIGHT THAT CONFIRMS IT AUTO TRANSLATE

Not for French though, only for Chinese.

[ajlongspiano]

So... How about that Polonaise Fantasy??? Kind of annoying how off topic these posts get nowadays...

[rubinsteinmad]

OMG I cant resist the 3rd Sonata anymore.
I LOVE IT SO MUCH!!!!!!!

Kate Liu is awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!                 

And shes AMERICAN!!!!!! Finally, there's one good American pianist as good as the European ones! 

[pencilart3]

Get back on topic Emily. Anyway, what were we saying? Oh, yes, the polonaise fantasy is terrible.

[ajlongspiano]

Get back on topic Emily. Anyway, what were we saying? Oh, yes, the polonaise fantasy is terrible.

You'll love it after you study music in college.

[rubinsteinmad]

Get back on topic Emily. Anyway, what were we saying? Oh, yes, the polonaise fantasy is terrible.

Get back on topic Emily. Anyway, what were we saying? Oh, yes, the polonaise fantasy is terrible.

IKR How could CHOPIN write it? LOl

Well, Liszt has some bad pieces too (Actually, a lot of them )

[pencilart3]

You'll love it after you study music in college.

Uh oh... what do you mean by that?

[dcstudio]

You'll love it after you study music in college.

don't count on it  I just went and listened to it for the first time since music school.

nope... still don't like it

[rubinsteinmad]

don't count on it  I just went and listened to it for the first time since music school.

nope... still don't like it

lol ikr

[ajlongspiano]

I'm so alone in this, lol.

[rubinsteinmad]

I'm so alone in this, lol.

BEcause you listened to Kate Liu but no one else did.

[dcstudio]

as a hardcore jazzer---I like my share of out there tunes... and I love Chopin.   Everyone has a bad day now and then...

the truth is...  I really didn't like the person who played this at my school...  I kinda have some negative emotions associated with this particular piece.  lol.

..and you're right...  I listened to Kissin.  I love the way his hair shakes when he plays... he reminds me of Kramer on Seinfeld

[rubinsteinmad]

as a hardcore jazzer---I like my share of out there tunes... and I love Chopin.   Everyone has a bad day now and then...

the truth is...  I really didn't like the person who played this at my school...  I kinda have some negative emotions associated with this particular piece.  lol.

..and you're right...  I listened to Kissin.  I love the way his hair shakes when he plays... he reminds me of Kramer on Seinfeld

lol Same for me with the Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody #13 lol.

That all changed when I heard Mariam Bhatsa-whatever her name is plahy this piece. After that, I LOVED it.

[ajlongspiano]

I actually didn't hear her polonaise fantasy. I love the piece as a composition. I don't care who performs it. There's so much ingenuity in the work, harmonically and structurally. It's really incredible. This piece marked Chopin's " last style " - It can't even be categorized as a late work by musicologists because it's so outstandingly different from almost everything else he ever wrote. It's so full of vision that it even sounds contemporary today. Chopin really outdid himself with that piece. The only other work by him that can be categorized as part of his " last stage " is the Op.68 No.4 Mazurka, and that's the last piece he ever wrote.

[rubinsteinmad]

I actually didn't hear her polonaise fantasy. I love the piece as a composition. I don't care who performs it. There's so much ingenuity in the work, harmonically and structurally. It's really incredible. This piece marked Chopin's " last style " - It can't even be categorized as a late work by musicologists because it's so outstandingly different from almost everything else he ever wrote. It's so full of vision that it even sounds contemporary today. Chopin really outdid himself with that piece. The only other work by him that can be categorized as part of his " last stage " is the Op.68 No.4 Mazurka, and that's the last piece he ever wrote.

Well, I prefer the Op. 68 #4 FAR better than the Op. 61.

The Op. 68 #4 is so beautiful.

[ajlongspiano]

I agree that the 68 4 is a wonderful piece. Probably the saddest thing he ever penned.

[rubinsteinmad]

I agree that the 68 4 is a wonderful piece. Probably the saddest thing he ever penned.

The chromaticism drives me crazy

[rubinsteinmad]

ajlongpiano ne parle pas des langues etrangeres.  Nous pouvons parler derrière son dos!

[rubinsteinmad]

I agree that the 68 4 is a wonderful piece. Probably the saddest thing he ever penned.

I agree that the 68 4 is a wonderful piece. Probably the saddest thing he ever penned.

Nous* parlons derrière ton dos

*Nous translates into "Me and Ivett"

[ajlongspiano]

Why do you continue to write in different languages? This is an English forum.

[rubinsteinmad]

Why do you continue to write in different languages? This is an English forum.

It is the new fad.

[dcstudio]

I actually didn't hear her polonaise fantasy. I love the piece as a composition. I don't care who performs it. There's so much ingenuity in the work, harmonically and structurally. It's really incredible. This piece marked Chopin's " last style " - It can't even be categorized as a late work by musicologists because it's so outstandingly different from almost everything else he ever wrote. It's so full of vision that it even sounds contemporary today. Chopin really outdid himself with that piece. The only other work by him that can be categorized as part of his " last stage " is the Op.68 No.4 Mazurka, and that's the last piece he ever wrote.

.. yes it's genius--my music history professor ranted a raved about it...but so was the 12 tone matrix...     I can still appreciate it without "loving" the way it sounds... like I said.. bad memory with this one.

[rubinsteinmad]

[/youtube]
OMG this music is really touching.

Especially if you look up Hikaro Oe on Wikipedia, it's so touching.

[quantum]

The Kate Liu recording was pretty enjoyable for me.  Actually, I had been thinking about the piece before seeing this thread. 

[lelle]

This was my first time trying to grasp the work. The hardest thing to understand for me was its structure. It modulates from key to key, isn't unified by any particular theme- only suggestions of past "utterances" and passionate, ascending sequences that seem to be abandoned later. Then there is a passionate outburst at the end- but where did it come from? I don't know. Before, Chopin was just being his "reflective," "lyrical" self. There are many beautiful moments but I don't understand the logic that connects each movement.

I tried doing a structural analysis... many of the different sections and themes are intertwined, sharing themes and motivical ideas, so I don't think there is a definitive way of doing it, however here is my take:


*EXPOSITION* (Home key)

INTRO
1-8 Fantasy intro, searching for the key.
9-22 Branching out from the intro, main theme appears, still searching

MAIN THEME
22-50 Main theme in home key
51-65 Episode woven out of the main theme leading to


*DEVELOPMENT* (Modulating, important themes passing through keys related to the home key)

MODULATION
66-92 Episode with a new idea, starting in home key and modulating until it reaches

MAIN THEME
92-115 Main theme in the dominant key, then modulating to

EPISODE
116-147 New declamatory melody, starting in B flat (the dominant of the dominant) and modulating to


*MIDDLE SECTION* (Mediant key)

SECOND THEME
148-181 Now in B major, a new theme is introduced.

EPISODE
182-205 Another declamatory section, starting in the relative minor of the second theme, the rhythm of the melody being close to identical to the earlier declamatory section in B flat
206-213 Reminiscenze of the second theme in B major, ending the section.


*RECAPITULATION* (Home key)

INTRO
214-215 Fantasy Intro returns, modulating from B major to
216-225 The declamatory theme, starting in the relative minor of the home key (f minor).
226-241 Buildup to the return of

MAIN THEME
242-253 Main theme returns in home key

SECOND THEME
254-267 Second theme also in home key, now in dotted rhythms.

CODA
268-288 Second theme explodes one last time and dies down into the ending of the piece.

[chrisbutch]

There's an excellent analysis of the P-F, including a lucid examination of the structure, in Jim Samson's The Music of Chopin (OUP)

[chopinlover01]

The Kate Liu recording was pretty enjoyable for me.  Actually, I had been thinking about the piece before seeing this thread. 

Quantum you're back! I hadn't seen hardly anything from you!