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Topic: Chopin etude op.25 n.11 Arpeggio (Read 2798 times)

konsta91

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Chopin etude op.25 n.11 Arpeggio

on: November 22, 2015, 05:27:08 PM

Hi everyone.

I have one technical question for you.
How would you study, or how did you study, bar 17-18 arpeggios, in particular the finger crossing 4-1 on G and B flat (moving up), in order to avoid "awkward" wrist movement and improve smooth playing?

I've tried a full legato, but my 4th finger remains stuck between the two black keys and makes a gap between the 4th and the 1st finger. While if I press the G lower at the base of the key, I have to move my wrist upwards and at speed it's quite uncomfortable.
My teacher suggested me to keep the 4th finger not to curled and to press the key up inside the two black notes. (Hope I've expressed myself clearly

)

Thumb's issue? Must be more stretched?

Thank you

Kos

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xdjuicebox

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Posts: 281

Re: Chopin etude op.25 n.11 Arpeggio

Reply #1 on: November 24, 2015, 04:43:18 PM

Oh for the love of all things good, PLEASE don't hold it. They'll hurt yourself, and don't swivel your wrist.

Most people will tell you something different, but the way I was taught to do it is to, with a relaxed hand, use the bone structure of your fourth finger to just barely hold the G down as you supinate your hand, and once your thumb is almost over the B-flat, rotate the other way and activate your finger. Since you're going form a white key to a thumb on the black key, you'll need to drop your forearm slightly and move your wrist forward a little bit to accommodate the short finger. Do NOT twist your wrist it'll hurt.

As you speed this up, the rotation becomes smaller and smaller, but it is still there.

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kurzya

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Posts: 16

Re: Chopin etude op.25 n.11 Arpeggio

Reply #2 on: January 09, 2016, 05:20:25 PM

Don't swivel your wrist! It will become much harder like that once you get it up to speed..
The way I've been taught is like so: learn the scale in the positions (each chord, so in bar 17 for example, a e and g, then next chord of b flat e a and b flat an octave up, ect) and then when you play it normally try to smoothly jump from each position to the next. Practice it slowly so the jump is barely noticeable, and as it speeds up, with pedal and left and and everything it becomes much more fluent (and functional I've found)

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anamnesis

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Re: Chopin etude op.25 n.11 Arpeggio

Reply #3 on: January 09, 2016, 07:05:18 PM

Follow the voice-leading.

The A connects to the Bb. So the real issue is that 5-1 connection. The E and G are captured inside the movement from A to Bb.

E-G-Bb forms a diminished triad, which allows you the freedom to not have strict legato or connection; however, the step motions from A->Bb ascending or A->G descending (or Bb->A->G) are what you need to focus on.

You can do a similar analysis on all the other phrases with the same arpeggiated configuration, and you will see that you are doing to be doing basically the same gestural motion on all of them.

You will find the most efficient motions studying the long-line voice leading. Connecting every little note bit by bit is entirely the wrong approach.

If you want to see, hear, and feel the underlying rhythm and musical idea for the arpeggiated sections ignore the middle two quarter note beats for the right hand. There's a very clever way to connect the first and last bits of those bars, while the left hand completes the middle. A similar approach can be found in other Chopin etudes where you have ascending and descending motion.

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konsta91

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Posts: 4

Re: Chopin etude op.25 n.11 Arpeggio

Reply #4 on: February 14, 2016, 11:47:01 PM

Thank you all!

Hopefully, I made good progress.
I'm not trying to connect each note, not anymore!

With my teacher we're working on wrist movements during my playing (in general, to avoid stiffness).

So, in order to play the arpeggio fluently upwards and downwards, the wrist should go up and down (ascending: down on the thumb and up on the fifth, or fourth whatever).
I've noticed that I can manage to keep my hand relaxed in those bars, and in general during the ascending line of every arpeggio. When it comes to the return, going down my hand and my wrist are not so smooth! $:-\$
For example: bar 9, the jump F-D (1-5) in the descending line of the first arpeggio
On F my wrist goes up and on D it goes down. Of course at fast tempo the movement of the wrist won't be visible, but still, the hand will be supple. I'm practicing it with only two notes, F and D going through the all keyboard.
I think it's common technique used in all arpeggios, but how much rotation should I use to get my fifth finger past "over" the thumb? Or it should be only horizontal movement of the wrist?

Anyway, it's not that bad, the tempo is quite there and this work is made to keep everything relaxed during the entire etude and to add strength and smoothness. By now, the notes hit by the fifth finger (after the thumb, going down) has an accent, due to poor relaxation.

I'd like to know what are your thoughts on wrist dynamics, not only for this etude!

PS: also a good suggestion my teacher gave me concerns the descending chromatic lines: using four group of notes, you lift your wrist on the fourth note to lower the tension. Studying slowly and then increasing the tempo, you should notice that your wrist will be much more supple and free, avoiding fixed position that leads to tension.

Cheers

Kos

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Topic: Chopin etude op.25 n.11 Arpeggio (Read 2798 times)

Piano Street Magazine:New Piano Piece by Chopin Discovered – Free Piano Score

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New Piano Piece by Chopin Discovered – Free Piano Score