How to get to the point where I don't make mistakes

[kayleez]

I have realized that it is very difficult for me to play a piece without any mistakes (missing notes, wrong notes, etc.) from start to end.  Maybe it is because I cannot focus? But if I force myself to focus too much, I become too aware of the playing and then get uncomfortable, and make more mistakes....anyone else has this problem? Any tips?

[dcstudio]

I play professionally and there isn't a single night where I don't make a plethora of mistakes.. the trick is to not let anyone hear them... or... play jazz where there are no mistakes...just different degrees of "out there."

Actually, right now those missed notes stick out like sore thumbs and likely cause you to make rhythmic errors and to lose your tempo as well.  Once you make your missed notes sound as smooth as the correct ones--and you focus on keeping the rhythm accurate and the tempo steady..  those little errors are FAR less noticeable by the casual listener.  Many aren't even heard.  That's how you get to the point where you don't make mistakes...    really your accuracy improves tremendously at this point because you aren't afraid to make those mistakes anymore... so, of course, you make far less of them.

[mjames]

^what she said

The trick is to be able to go on as if nothing happened. Maintain your lines, keep your composure and DON'T stop playing.

[outin]

I have realized that it is very difficult for me to play a piece without any mistakes (missing notes, wrong notes, etc.) from start to end.  Maybe it is because I cannot focus? But if I force myself to focus too much, I become too aware of the playing and then get uncomfortable, and make more mistakes....anyone else has this problem? Any tips?

Almost all of my problems in getting through the pieces (assuming I have practiced them well enough) result from losing my focus and just like you the harder I try to focus the worse it gets. Unfortunately I haven't found any solution to this, so it's either accept them or not play.

[quantum]

It is more about getting to the point where mistakes do not hinder music making. 

One needs to practice getting to the end of the piece no matter what happens.  A common reaction to a mistake is that we divert our immediate attention to the mistake itself, and in doing so further loose focus on the music that comes next.  When we notice a mistake, that event is already past history - we need to focus on the music that follows.  As the saying in driving a car goes: look where you want to go, and you will go there. 

You can practice by intentionally skipping measures, beats, systems, etc.  However, you must do so while continuing to play music without loosing rhythm (no stops and starts). 

[indianajo]

I was taught to play slowly enough that there are no mistakes.  This may involve one hand alone practice in the beginning.  Enough runthroughs of that, the inner brain learns the movements correctly, and you can turn up the speed screw.  Proper playing of known repretoire involves no "thinking" IMHO.  The cortex only gets involved in sight reading, and that is mostly looking for patterns you already know the feel of.  
I do sometimes concentrate, repeating  difficult passages over and over, to the exclusion of the easy stuff that makes the rest of the piece.  But before public performance, I play straight through enough times that I am not tempted to stop at the barriers.  
"Focussing" is use of the cortex, which IMHO, is not part of piano performance. After learning the piece with the inner brain, you use the cortex to add expression, to convey emotion.  The movement of the fingers hands and arms should be automatic at the time of performance. 
This is, IMHO, a student level question.  

[kawai_cs]

I play professionally and there isn't a single night where I don't make a plethora of mistakes.. the trick is to not let anyone hear them... or... play jazz where there are no mistakes...just different degrees of "out there."

Actually, right now those missed notes stick out like sore thumbs and likely cause you to make rhythmic errors and to lose your tempo as well.  Once you make your missed notes sound as smooth as the correct ones--and you focus on keeping the rhythm accurate and the tempo steady..  those little errors are FAR less noticeable by the casual listener.  Many aren't even heard.  That's how you get to the point where you don't make mistakes...    really your accuracy improves tremendously at this point because you aren't afraid to make those mistakes anymore... so, of course, you make far less of them.

+1
wow, well said!

[shostglass]

Well the way I see it is if you make a mistake and play a wrong note just don't even acknowledge the mistake and make up that note with the next one.

Also if you make a mistake and stop to repeat then you have just made that mistake obvious. It's like if you go to people in public and say something ubsurd but if you say it confidently and act like its normal then they will be much more accepting of it and fine with just going with it.

[adodd81802]

I was taught to play slowly enough that there are no mistakes.  This may involve one hand alone practice in the beginning.  Enough runthroughs of that, the inner brain learns the movements correctly, and you can turn up the speed screw.  Proper playing of known repretoire involves no "thinking" IMHO.  The cortex only gets involved in sight reading, and that is mostly looking for patterns you already know the feel of.  
I do sometimes concentrate, repeating  difficult passages over and over, to the exclusion of the easy stuff that makes the rest of the piece.  But before public performance, I play straight through enough times that I am not tempted to stop at the barriers.  
"Focussing" is use of the cortex, which IMHO, is not part of piano performance. After learning the piece with the inner brain, you use the cortex to add expression, to convey emotion.  The movement of the fingers hands and arms should be automatic at the time of performance.  
This is, IMHO, a student level question.  

I agree with this to be honest. In maybe a bar or a restaurant, you can get away with some bum notes, but when performing at a place where the audience is silent, ears are concentrated and all eyes on you, there are so many pressures that incorrect notes need to be the least of your worries.

There was a master class with Lang Lang (say what you like, the guy can play the piano) and the student performed "Islamay" note perfect. As soon as he finished Lang Lang got up and said "well the good news is, you can hit all the notes..."

Reality is if you cannot even hit all the notes correctly without being 100% cofident, you certainly cannot concentrate on the whole performance. There is no quick fixes for learning a piece, you need to practice slowly, you need to repeat many times and you need to isolate and pay special attention to difficult or incorrect passages.

[iansinclair]

I think there must have been occasions when I managed to get all the way through a concert or a service (I was a Minister of Music) without making a mistake.  Must have been.  I can't remember any.  All the above comments are good -- one does, of course, try to get to the point where mistakes are few and far between.  That's as much a matter of practicing and time as anything else.  But the other comments are also important -- keep going.  That's the hardest part, really, and it also takes practice.

[louispodesta]

^what she said

The trick is to be able to go on as if nothing happened. Maintain your lines, keep your composure and DON'T stop playing.

Very well said.

However, before I comment, it needs to be established as a predicate that I am not a HPP (Historic Performance Practice) advocate.  I am instead an Original Performance Practice advocate.

That means that I attempt, through my research, writings and initial video,

, that:  the manner in which the piano was originally played by the actual composer/pianists themselves (Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Chopin, Brahms, et al, was not the way it is performed today.

And, not included in this logic set was the modern (German tradition) Conservatory philosophy of note-perfect playing.  As partial proof of this anti-Urtext philosophy, which most modern musicologists view now as a well-debunked fraud, I refer those who care to peruse the liner notes to one of Mieczyslaw Horszowski's recordings.

They are written and transcribed from an interview by Joseph Horowitz.  During this talk with Horszowski, who was a student of Theodore Leschitizky (student of Karl Czerny) in the 19th century, who taught at Curtis for 43 years, and who lived and performed to the age of 99, the following was related:

Horowitz pressed Horszowski as to the difference between modern 20th century playing and that of the 19th century.  Horszowski, who kept his job at Curtis for all that time by knowing how to keep his mouth shut, was reticent to answer.

When pressed again, he said (paraphrasing); that in the 19th century no one, audience or music critic alike, got all bent out shape if any performer hit a wrong note, here or there.  The total emphasis was on the musicality of a particular performance.

Therefore, the OP can waste their time on a heavily promoted conservatory musical myth, or they can instead focus on the true beauty and love that was the intention of the original composer/pianists who conceived and performed this great music.

THIS DOES NOT MEAN that one can disregard the common pedagogical practice of learning the correct notes of any piece.  Nor, does it mean that one can ignore the proper rhythm, dynamic markings of any piece or its suggested phrasing.

[dcstudio]

THIS DOES NOT MEAN that one can disregard the common pedagogical practice of learning the correct notes of any piece.  Nor, does it mean that one can ignore the proper rhythm, dynamic markings of any piece or its suggested phrasing.

I agree with this completely within the context of my statement as well.   when I said you need to make your missed notes as smooth as your correct ones... well, that can only happen if you have studied the piece your playing intensely and you have learned each note correctly.   I don't mean you should blow off playing correct notes... or go out and "wing it" on a formal gig.  I mean that when your fingers and your brain are accustomed to playing everything evenly and smoothly...or better yet correctly--if and when you happen to miss a note... it will still come out as smooth and even as if you had struck the intended key.   Additionally, your rhythm and tempo will remain unhindered by the mistake therefore making it FAR less noticeable.   As I said, the average ear won't even be aware of it and if perchance they are-- they will think their ears are wrong and you meant to do it that way..   

Also, when I said there's not a night I don't make a plethora of errors... it's really more true on my solo gigs than when I accompany in a formal setting.   I make every effort to play those pieces a cleanly as possible... and that ability took YEARS to develop.  Even then I may miss a note once in a while... but it's unlikely that it will throw the soloist of track because it always comes out just a smooth and even as the rest.

[adodd81802]

Podesta, you often make some very controversial points and so I thought I would challenge a couple of yours on this occasion.

That means that I attempt, through my research, writings and initial video,

, that:  the manner in which the piano was originally played by the actual composer/pianists themselves (Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Chopin, Brahms, et al, was not the way it is performed today.

I agree and like the idea of performing as the composer may have performed, however as an example, (I cannot find the original quotation) Did Chopin not disapprove of others playing like him and so did not teach a lot of his own compositions in his lessons?

We should not be aiming to make copies of people but to takes music and progress it in time with us and expressing it in a way relevant with our current selves and our modern audiences. We can only at best presume what many classical pianists were thinking and how they actually performed, but we CAN know what we think and feel when we perform.

When pressed again, he said (paraphrasing); that in the 19th century no one, audience or music critic alike, got all bent out shape if any performer hit a wrong note, here or there.  The total emphasis was on the musicality of a particular performance.

I again can agree that this may have been a very valid point in the 19th century. We have to move forward, music moves forward, the history of music is used merely to understand where it came from and how it progressed, not to live in it.

There are many reasons, some good, some bad why note perfect playing has become a big part of a performance, this is mostly media which has brought competition to a new level and some fabrications such as editing recordings. But out of the 99% of pianists that cannot achieve this level of performance, there is still 1% that can whilst still maintaining musicality as you mentioned.

That doesn't make such theory a myth, it is simply wrongly interpreted as a feat that can be easily achieved by all, when unfortunately it cannot. It is also believed that this perfect playing is a skill that once obtained is kept forever, which also is not the case.

Like any skill, everybody peaks, our brains, our hands, they consist of muscles that are exercised and eventually fatigue just as the legs of a runner does, or the eyes of a golfer does. The beauty of video recordings, is proof that the level of playing is achievable and sets the bar not only for the performer, but the audience also.

We should not confuse the best composer with the best pianist, and why I have no doubt Chopin, Beethoven, Mozart were all fantastic pianists, they were even better composers, evidenced by composers such as Schubert who never even owned a piano and Schumann (some questionable compositions!) who was unable to play one at all.

[dcstudio]

That doesn't make such theory a myth, it is simply wrongly interpreted as a feat that can be easily achieved by all, when unfortunately it cannot. It is also believed that this perfect playing is a skill that once obtained is kept forever, which also is not the case.

yes...beyond well said! you speak the truth.   those words hit home, addod... allow me a moment to explain.

 There comes a point in a lifelong players life when they look back and believe they could have taken a much easier path to their current level.  We wonder if all that "stuff" we did was really necessary.  We are, all of us, looking through "rose colored glasses" when look back at the past, though.  We are also thinking with a brain that completely understands music...on every level..  I have been there.. and at some point in the last 10 years of PS membership you will find that for a period of time my posts reflected that sentimentality.

I thought, back then, that I had made some kind of discovery... that the entire system was wrong...and I had the answer... ooohhh... this is a dangerous place to be.  I had a full teaching schedule at the time...eeek.  I fully believed that I could make anyone into a master pianist...that my way was some kind of easy "road less traveled".  I remember being angry when no one listened...and even angrier at the people who tried to explain what I was going through...having been there themselves.  It's kind of a piano mid-life crisis I think...

in the end...  your words, addod, reflect exactly what I learned.    which was something I had really known my whole life.


I am now a musician who is grounded in reality... yet still experiences that ultimate joy from performing..  it's far more peaceful this way.

[louispodesta]

Very well said by adodd81802 and dcstudio.  Accordingly, I add to my original comment:

1)  The ability to work through a misstep, not a mistake (because all pianists of the 18th and 19th century improvised) is a product of two musical skills.  First, as a true performing pianist, dcstudio knows the functional harmony of any piece she plays.  Therefore, when something goes awry, she knows instantly how to refer back to the overall harmonic and rhythmic structure of the work.

Recently, Daniel Barenboim was asked how he could remember all of the notes when he performed the Beethoven Sonata cycle.  His answer (paraphrasing) was that once he found himself down a wrong alley, then he knew how to find his way back.  That is exactly what dcstudio does.

2)  Further, my Chair at UT San Antonio is Dr. David Frego, who is chair of the departments of music AND dance.  He is an internationally renowned lecturer in Dacroze Eurhytmics.

When I shared with him the philosophy of the modern dance superstar, Suzanne Farrell, he replied that yes he in fact had written his Doctoral Dissertation on just that very subject.  Madame Farrell's take on mistakes is that the trick is turn each misstep into a new pathway and interpretation of the overall work.

That is why teaching every student the basic concept of improvisation (like Dalcroze does) is important.  You learn how to "go with the flow."

3) Chopin did teach his own compositions.  Except, that as the richest piano teacher of all time (750 solid gold francs a week), may of his students were aristocrats who did not consider it important to practice.  That is why he kept the metronome on the music stand, just as all the piano teachers of today do, when their student shows up for a lesson with the same attitude.

As further proof, I list a previously posted link to a treatise by Jao Paulo Casarotti, entitled "Chopin The Teacher."  https://www.forte-piano-pianissimo.com/Chopin-the-Teacher.html

This elucidates adodd81802's inference that the goal of any true pedagogue is to develop their particular students own individual "voice," as a pianist.  When dcstudio and I were at North Texas, everyone of each faculty member's students were carbon copies of their teacher's performance style.

In contrast regarding my great teacher Robert Weaver, I will share with you the following:

For some reason, I sat in on a lesson of one his very promising young students.  This kid, who was also a rock and roll bass player, had a left hand of steel (with facility to match).

During the lesson, he made mistakes all over the place, which surprised me, because this kid could play.  Afterwards, I asked my teacher why he did not stop him at any point in the lesson and point out any of his mistakes (as he always did with me).

His answer was that:  at this point in his learning, the student was developing his own style.  And, therefore it was more important that he continue to foster this process, as opposed to the NOTE-PERFECT music conservatory philosophy of interrupting it by pointing out wrong notes.

[dcstudio]

Very well said by adodd81802 and dcstudio.  Accordingly, I add to my original comment:

1)  The ability to work through a misstep, not a mistake (because all pianists of the 18th and 19th century improvised) is a product of two musical skills.  First, as a true performing pianist, dcstudio knows the functional harmony of any piece she plays.  Therefore, when something goes awry, she knows instantly how to refer back to the overall harmonic and rhythmic structure of the work.

Recently, Daniel Barenboim was asked how he could remember all of the notes when he performed the Beethoven Sonata cycle.  His answer (paraphrasing) was that once he found himself down a wrong alley, then he knew how to find his way back.  That is exactly what dcstudio does.

  ok now see.. Louis this is exactly correct...  this is exactly how I play to the tee... it is what I try to teach and it is lacking in formal training.. not the theory aspect... but the APPLICATION of it.   to me it is impossible to play any other way... I really don't understand those who can play so well but have absolutely no clue (beyond maybe what key they are in) as to the overall harmonic structure.   I don't deny their skill... I am just befuddled as to how they achieved it.

This elucidates adodd81802's inference that the goal of any true pedagogue is to develop their particular students own individual "voice," as a pianist.  When dcstudio and I were at North Texas, everyone of each faculty member's students were carbon copies of their teacher's performance style.

OK agreed-- but Louis was at UNT 20 years before me!!... lol... just to clarify... and neither of Louis nor myself came out of the classical piano dept with much...  I, however, went to the jazz department and studied with the great Dan Haerle... who was, beyond any doubt, the greatest MUSIC teacher I EVER had. 

and as hard as I tried and as much as I practiced I was never even close to a carbon copy of Dr. R. or any other performance professor... not to say I didn't very much want to be at the time.

Yes... the individual voice is the ultimate goal of teaching--that was something I learned from Dan.


like I said Louis... I don't disagree with you on EVERYTHING.  In fact we see more eye to eye on some issues than either of us cares to admit. 


but Addod.. I still agree with you, too.

[adodd81802]

Very well said by adodd81802 and dcstudio.  Accordingly, I add to my original comment:

1)  The ability to work through a misstep, not a mistake (because all pianists of the 18th and 19th century improvised) is a product of two musical skills. 

I agree that working through a misstep comes from an ability of understanding music and preparation of the piece.
However I would like to make 2 points.

Chopin wrote disapprovingly at Liszt performances of some of his pieces where he purposefully added ornaments and improvisations that were not on the score.

A recent performance of a concerto by Yundi Li crashed when he and the orchestra fell out of sync and couldn't recover. A professional pianist, a competition winner, no doubt has a full understanding of tone and harmony. What are your thoughts? Should he have improvised? Should he have tried to have recovered (seemingly he couldn't) Should he have stopped, apologised and started again?

may of his students were aristocrats who did not consider it important to practice.  That is why he kept the metronome on the music stand, just as all the piano teachers of today do, when their student shows up for a lesson with the same attitude.


As further proof, I list a previously posted link to a treatise by Jao Paulo Casarotti, entitled "Chopin The Teacher."  https://www.forte-piano-pianissimo.com/Chopin-the-Teacher.html

I did have a look on the link and while I could see reference to a metronome I couldn't see anything specifically quoting that the metronome was only used for those who did not practice and personally I find it a useful tool to highlight areas of playing that need attention. I don't think it should be relied upon in the final product.

I also do not disagree with the fact that musicality was important, but I don't think improvisation here refers to adding anything other than expression or rhythm, therefore correct notes I think is still equally important here.

His answer was that:  at this point in his learning, the student was developing his own style.  And, therefore it was more important that he continue to foster this process, as opposed to the NOTE-PERFECT music conservatory philosophy of interrupting it by pointing out wrong notes.

Developing style is important yes and working through misteps or a bum notes is also important. But we do have to consider that one's style may not be applied to every piece, but getting the correct notes certainly can.

Personally, I would rather hear a note perfect performance with less musicality over an expressive performance with 10 bum notes. That's my personal preference.

Podesta you're obviously knowledgeable and provide a lot of information to think about that even if disagreed with still hold maintain some validity rather than rambled nonsense from an over opinionated keyboard warrior however I do think there are arguments both ways here and would unlikely to ever conclude with a clear victor, especially with all the different styles of music.

Modern classical performances do not seem to comply with your thoughts on improvisation and missteps are quite frowned upon due to the harsh competition that we have developed in this genre.

[dcstudio]

Personally, I would rather hear a note perfect performance with less musicality over an expressive performance with 10 bum notes. That's my personal preference.

addod... I like you and this is just a friendly discussion... but you just lost me right there.

I do believe this attitude comes from being told by others since we were babies that this is how it's supposed to be.  I remember speaking of my favorite classical records to my teachers and having them "BAAH" at me saying that was a horrible recording... and listing for me all the reasons (some of which were surely valid) why someone else's performance was better.  I remember feeling so--I don't know--DEAF--for lack of a better term... unworthy, unmusical--and just plain bad when this would happen.   I was afraid, for a time, to even give my opinion on whether I liked a performance or not... I would always wait for a parent or teacher or someone else to tell me "it was good" before I said anything.  This profoundly affected my self-worth as a musician...and it's a VERY common tale among us lifers.

Addod... as someone who has accompanied at 100s of different competitions...for piano, voice, brass...you name it...  I can tell you that 99% of the judges I have come in contact with DO NOT FEEL THIS WAY...  note perfect non-musical playing LOSES to musicality every single time and I have witnessed this from the stage time and time again..  (though I admit... I have never been in the big league competitions--this holds true there as well)

as for Yundi... I would have improvised...  I would have listened and watched and recovered... it would  not sound like Chopin... but I would have made it back...  that is my strong-suit... thinking on my feet and LISTENING.  I don't know what happened or what HE was thinking though... so I don't know what he should have done.  NEVER stop and apologize...that is not an option.

[adodd81802]

addod... I like you and this is just a friendly discussion... but you just lost me right there.

I do believe this attitude comes from being told by others since we were babies that this is how it's supposed to be.  I remember speaking of my favorite classical records to my teachers and having them "BAAH" at me saying that was a horrible recording... and listing for me all the reasons (some of which were surely valid) why someone else's performance was better.  I remember feeling so--I don't know--DEAF--for lack of a better term... unworthy, unmusical--and just plain bad when this would happen.   I was afraid, for a time, to even give my opinion on whether I liked a performance or not... I would always wait for a parent or teacher or someone else to tell me "it was good" before I said anything.  This profoundly affected my self-worth as a musician...and it's a VERY common tale among us lifers.

Addod... as someone who has accompanied at 100s of different competitions...for piano, voice, brass...you name it...  I can tell you that 99% of the judges I have come in contact with DO NOT FEEL THIS WAY...  note perfect non-musical playing LOSES to musicality every single time and I have witnessed this from the stage time and time again..  (though I admit... I have never been in the big league competitions--this holds true there as well)

as for Yundi... I would have improvised...  I would have listened and watched and recovered... it would  not sound like Chopin... but I would have made it back...  that is my strong-suit... thinking on my feet and LISTENING.  I don't know what happened or what HE was thinking though... so I don't know what he should have done.  NEVER stop and apologize...that is not an option.

You make some good points. As stated it's just a personal preference and not part of my evidence for note-perfect playing being important. For me a bad note stains my ear more than a bad interpretation.

Like anything preferences and opinions are open to change especially mine and i'm 26, i'm not a professional, so what do I know! In the professional piano playing world, we are surrounded continuously in the media by 'child prodigies', 'perfect playing', pianists' best performances and so it stands to reason that most pianists aim for nothing less, just like anybody else would in their respective fields.

[dcstudio]

You make some good points. As stated it's just a personal preference and not part of my evidence for note-perfect playing being important. For me a bad note stains my ear more than a bad interpretation.

Like anything preferences and opinions are open to change especially mine and i'm 26, i'm not a professional, so what do I know! In the professional piano playing world, we are surrounded continuously in the media by 'child prodigies', 'perfect playing', pianists' best performances and so it stands to reason that most pianists aim for nothing less, just like anybody else would in their respective fields.

it's completely understandable and totally expected that you should feel this way... and you are not alone by any means.   Listening for tonal and rhythmic accuracy is a very concrete way of determining whether or not a performance is "good."   It is really the only "statistical" and objective way.  You no doubt have had similar experiences to mine where someone told you that the music you thought was "good" was indeed "bad."   That makes you completely lose confidence in yourself in this regard... "how can it be bad if I think it sounds so great?"   You next conclude...well "just because I think it sounds good...doesn't necessarily mean it is good."  What's next but... "how can I determine if it is good?"    At this point... you train your ears to listen for missed notes... that's why you take them away from the performance and they stick in your ears.    

and if I want to  I can still easily turn that "app" on in my own ears and listen only for accuracy... because I had trained my ears to do exactly that at one time, too.   It's an incredibly hard habit to break.  I will say though... that the ability to hear 10 bum notes in a performance indicates you have a very well-trained ear... and it is capable of detecting FAR more about a piece of music than tonal accuracy... 

[tenk]

Seems like a good time to re-link this thread:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=45688.0

It happens/has happened to some of the greatest pianists. Just keep going.

This isn't to say that you should fumble through a piece and expect rapturous applause. Slow practice, careful analysis of the score, and a deep connection to the music you're playing will get you there.

[louispodesta]

Regarding adodd8102:

"Chopin wrote disapprovingly at Liszt performances of some of his pieces where he purposefully added ornaments and improvisations that were not on the score."

Liszt was, until the age of 37, and avid performer, and as I am attempting to point out in my news story, it was commonplace for performers to ornament and improvise.  Even Chopin, when asked to play an encore, would repeat a piece he had played during the regular program, and then put a new spin on it.

In January of this year, the world authority on classical and romantic period performance practice, Clive Brown (of the University of Leeds) said in an interview on WQXR (New York) that all classical music today is performed "wrong" (his word).  He stated unequivocally that when the music was originally performed that everybody improvised, and he was talking about all classical music and not just keyboard.  As a matter of fact, one cannot attain a graduate degree in organ performance without learning the skill of classical improvisation.

And, (here it comes) I attempting to have two noted scholars co-author a paper that will show that Mozart's keyboard music was originally played in a Bel Canto Aria style, just like his vocal music.  That is the way amateur and professional musicians of his time performed.

In this Memoir, Earl Wild states that Mozart complained when performers of his piano sonatas played them straight off the score without ornamentation and embellishment.  And, I have personally inspected the diaries of Mozart student Barbara Ployer, who transcribed her lessons.  They are all written in two voices with figured bass and no ornaments, which indicates that the individual performer was expected to add their own.

[dcstudio]

to be fair.. quite a bit of music was in figured bass back then... which is why they make you learn it in theory class.   However, that alone should tell you that the left hand was not set in stone...

Louis is correct... performance practice was different.   However, there are still performers in the classical genre (the more showy ones) who improvise, ornament, and play familiar works... with a different "spin"  you just won't find them at the Chopin Competition.  

In the 19th century there were "straight" pianists and "showy" pianists just like there are today..(Mozart himself complained of that--according to Louis).   There were lesser-known pianists hired to play with the orchestra and then there were the big names.   Some of the big names were "straight" players... and some were like Liszt.  It's really not that different today... some do it some don't...


This is where I am losing you Louis...  what is it you are trying to say... that note-perfect playing should be abandoned because it is not what the composers intended?   I am not sure any amount of evidence you provide to support this claim is going to change the minds of the powers that be.  Also, that kind of disciplined learning does have it's advantages... I advocate simply adding a bit more to the current system instead of overthrowing it completely.

Back in the 19th century they taught improvisation so let's bring that back.


as for Bel Canto Aria style...   are you referring to the use of Baroque era melisma-tic ornamentations?  my mother is a classical voice teacher...I accompanied her students for years...she drilled this term into their heads... I understand this concept quite well--but moreso in the vocal technique required to achieve it.
 Mozart's  arias are among the most difficult in the entire vocal rep---i.e. Queen of the Night--Der Holle Rach.   and they sound very similar to some of his keyboard works...   I am not quite following you... please elaborate..

 Also, the sustain pedal wasn't around until later in his life... there is an account of a student asking to use the pedal and Mozart responding..."Just play it like I wrote it."   we can take his quotes either way... and he probably changed his mind depending on his mood that day.. or the circumstances... like everyone does.


I am not so sure you can teach creativity and originality...and breaking out to find your own voice...   but I am open to suggestions.

[tenk]

This is where I am losing you Louis...  what is it you are trying to say...

I find myself thinking this almost every time I read one of his posts.

[louispodesta]

I find myself thinking this almost every time I read one of his posts.

My only pet peeve is when I have to continually repeat myself.  However, since I was diagnosed as an Aspy, I just assume that it comes with the territory.

On point, I have stated in multiple posts on this website (and the other one), that the two scholarly texts on this subject are 1)  Kenneth Hamilton's " After The Golden Age," and 2) "Off The Record,"  by Neal Perez Da Costa."  Between the two works, they beat this subject to death!

This is what I communicated to dcstudio in my very first texts t her, and she promised to read these works.  Subsequently, by her supposed confusion, you can figure out the rest.

What I was stating in my earlier post per the OP is not my "opinion."  It is summarized research that I have spent years on.

So, if you all want to state what "you think about this or that," then that is your prerogative.  However, in the future I will continue to cite one or more multiple sources to support my argument, which is the universally accepted academic rule.

[dcstudio]

...sigh...  

for Pete's sake Louis...please just answer the question... I have read, my friend, we all have... we have all tried to understand what you are trying to prove...

Nobody has accused you of it being "your opinion" you cite and annotate your statements with so many references that you have managed to confuse even the most scholarly among us.   Obviously, you have researched this... no one is doubting your intelligence, your experience or your commitment to your news story.  

what is it YOU want out of this?   If this subject has been beaten to death by other scholarly fellows than what NEW information are you bringing to the table?.  What changes are you hoping this news will bring about?   I am not the only one who is really trying to understand... please stop being offended and explain yourself.  These are not pointed questions...

Louis I am not attacking you.   Please stop telling me to read someone else's research so I can understand yours.   I want to know what YOU are trying to say... not them.

I do sincerely apologize if I am unable to comprehend... that is obviously my issue and I am very nicely asking you to help me.   I am asking you to do it here on this thread so others may understand as well.

pretend I am a reporter covering your story... how will you explain it to someone who knows nothing about music?

[outin]

"Chopin wrote disapprovingly at Liszt performances of some of his pieces where he purposefully added ornaments and improvisations that were not on the score."

I would just like to point out to you all that these great composers lived before the internet, telephones or any other means of quick communication. Those days people wrote letters instead and often lots of them.

Mostly they did NOT think that someone 150 years later would read those letters and try to use them to figure out how exactly they thought about things. So they did not necessarily contemplate carefully everything they wrote. At best we can have a very fragmented and uncertain picture of the real person's ideas behind those letters. The letters were written during different periods of their life. Their thoughts evolved and what they wrote in their 20's may not really say much about how they thought 30 years later. They may have written the letters after some incident or in an emotional turmoil.

Imagine if someone in the future in a very different world got a hold of your e-mails or your posts on this site and then use them to figure out how you were and how your thought about things?

It's important to understand this when one uses sources like diaries or letters from the past to prove something. Just saying...

[adodd81802]

It's important to understand this when one uses sources like diaries or letters from the past to prove something. Just saying...

I appreciate that. But it seems you are speculating. You are right in what you say, but the fact in this case we have evidence to suggest that Chopin disapproved, there isn't any evidence to suggest he did? Unless somebody can correct me there, and so unless there is evidence explicitly contradicting an original point made, we have to presume the first point.

[adodd81802]

Liszt was, until the age of 37, and avid performer, and as I am attempting to point out in my news story, it was commonplace for performers to ornament and improvise.  Even Chopin, when asked to play an encore, would repeat a piece he had played during the regular program, and then put a new spin on it.


Was this others compositions or Chopin's compositions?

Regarding adodd8102:
In January of this year, the world authority on classical and romantic period performance practice, Clive Brown (of the University of Leeds) said in an interview on WQXR (New York) that all classical music today is performed "wrong" (his word).  He stated unequivocally that when the music was originally performed that everybody improvised, and he was talking about all classical music and not just keyboard.  As a matter of fact, one cannot attain a graduate degree in organ performance without learning the skill of classical improvisation.

Let's not steer away from the point here. Improvisation is something I have not argued against, however I do not believe for one second that there's anything wrong with playing strictly to the score. I agree some composers such as Mozart are believed to have written minimal notation where the performer was expected to improvise, but taking Chopin again, why would he have written all his ornaments and embellishments if he then wanted the performer to make their own?

Improvisation is a great thing if the notes work. A good improvisation still has it's own constraints, you can't just bash any keys and it sounds good. We go back to the point that playing note perfect, is pretty essential in not just relating to the physical notes we see on a score, but actually hitting correct notes within any constraints?

[outin]

I appreciate that. But it seems you are speculating.

No. I am not saying Chopin thought this or that, I was making a general observation about using such sources rather than addressing the original claims. Maybe I wasn't clear enough?

I have read all of Chopin's letters and all the fragments of his never finished "method". There is really rather little that one can conclude from them about his person or his real thoughts. My impression is that he was rarely very sincere when communication (of course in general those days people were not as direct as today). His main concern often seemed to be money

[dcstudio]

but taking Chopin again, why would he have written all his ornaments and embellishments if he then wanted the performer to make their own?

because the vast majority of pianists back then...just like now...didn't have the improv skills so he wrote them out...  I am just speculating..

I agree with you Addod that there's nothing wrong with sticking to the score... and I also believe that improv should be encouraged...or even taught.  I do not however, believe that every pianist is capable of it.. or even wants to do it.  I am speaking from my experience as a teacher... not from any source.   I am proficient at improvisation and I know how to teach it... as it was taught to me.   Not everyone gets it.. not everyone is the same.  Some don't get it right away and later have an epiphany and can improvise as easily as they can read.  Some just never get it...but still play beautifully.   That is why Louis loses me... it's really common knowledge that the master's improvised..  Not every great pianist plays the same way...   I don't understand where the News is and what he hopes to accomplish... but I am really trying.

and Outin... I sure as heck hope that no one digs up these posts in 150 years and tries to get in MY head...   hopefully nobody finds letters I wrote to someone and takes it as Gospel for who I was.  Our attitudes change as we grow... theirs no doubt did as well.

[thalbergmad]

Personally, I would rather hear a note perfect performance with less musicality over an expressive performance with 10 bum notes. That's my personal preference.

If i ever got to the stage where i was capable of a note perfect performance, i would give up immediately as God knows what musical sacrifices i would have made to achieve it.

Thal

[indianajo]

Well, in my two hours holiday entertainment of the indigent the other night, I dropped a few inner voices of chords, but didn't hit any wrong notes except for an ending chord of Jingle Bells that I don't have written down anywhere.  Fine with me, and I'm not giving up. 
Improv - well maybe on pop music but Tuesday night there were just a few harmonic extra left hand counts in held whole notes in these old familiar hymns. I don't want to stress myself too much with creativity, since I'm not that way.  More power to the talented writers and improvisers like Chopin and Listz, that is not my talent. Yet. 
Wrong chords when you are figuring things out songs in your head:  they aren't all bad sounding, just not the song you are trying to play. I might make something of them some other time, maybe. 

[lostinidlewonder]

If you play something that your skill can easily control the chances of error is very small. The thing is that people often play things too difficult for them or pieces which push their abilities to the limits, there is no surprise then that they have higher chance of errors. You can certainly train away difficult technical acrobatics at the keyboard but if it is focused upon a single piece and does have at least other past experience to draw upon you set yourself up for higher error chances.

[dcstudio]

Well, in my two hours holiday entertainment of the indigent the other night, I dropped a few inner voices of chords, but didn't hit any wrong notes except for an ending chord of Jingle Bells that I don't have written down anywhere.  Fine with me, and I'm not giving up. 
Improv - well maybe on pop music but Tuesday night there were just a few harmonic extra left hand counts in held whole notes in these old familiar hymns. I don't want to stress myself too much with creativity, since I'm not that way.  More power to the talented writers and improvisers like Chopin and Listz, that is not my talent. Yet. 
Wrong chords when you are figuring things out songs in your head:  they aren't all bad sounding, just not the song you are trying to play. I might make something of them some other time, maybe. 

wow 2 hours and one wrong chord???  that's pretty jammin' --that's better than I did on Tuesday while I was playing (1000 miles away) ..  stay awake when you are playing those old familiar hymns and you won't over hold the whole notes..  I always keep no-doz in the piano bench at church for just such an emergency. LOL

think you are ready to go pro Idianajo... as soon as you memorize (or you can fake) Piano Man and Bennie and the Jets you will be ready for the big leagues.  yea!

[dcstudio]

If you play something that your skill can easily control the chances of error is very small. The thing is that people often play things too difficult for them or pieces which push their abilities to the limits, there is no surprise then that they have higher chance of errors. You can certainly train away difficult technical acrobatics at the keyboard but if it is focused upon a single piece and does have at least other past experience to draw upon you set yourself up for higher error chances.

PROSPECTIVE STUDENT: I've only been playing the piano for 6 months and I am already playing La Campanella...  I can play it really really good... except for those high echoing notes... do you HAVE to play those?  are they really necessary? my mom says it sounds better without them.

TEACHER:  ...sigh...please tell you mom that my rate is going up this year to $150 per 1/2 hour lesson.  You have to pay by the quarter and I don't give make-ups.

LOL

[lostinidlewonder]

PROSPECTIVE STUDENT: I've only been playing the piano for 6 months and I am already playing La Campanella...  I can play it really really good... except for those high echoing notes... do you HAVE to play those?  are they really necessary? my mom says it sounds better without them.

TEACHER:  ...sigh...please tell you mom that my rate is going up this year to $150 per 1/2 hour lesson.  You have to pay by the quarter and I don't give make-ups.

LOL

Urg that sounds familiar It is not funny though when you really face a student with the reality that they don't really want to learn how to play the piano at all but simply want to play a few pieces they love. It is frustrating as a teacher dealing with students who are stubborn and will not learn to develop their skills and learning craft and just want instant satisfaction with their favorite pieces. I don't really see the instant satisfaction in practicing a single piece for months and even years and never getting it right but so many do this willingly.

[adodd81802]

I definitely learnt this the hard way!

[dcstudio]

I don't really see the instant satisfaction in practicing a single piece for months and even years and never getting it right but so many do this willingly.

and trying to explain to them...however gently and kindly... that they don't quite "have it right" and maybe they should work on developing a little better technique first, that although they are playing some correct notes it bears no resemblance to music--is an exercise in futility..

MOTHER OF PROSPECTIVE STUDENT:   Well, we will just find a teacher who is capable of handling my son's special talent.  HE is playing LISZT... don't you think that means he is a "prodigy?"  You obviously don't know your business very well...

ME:   that's right, ma'am...  good luck to you both.  

never take it personally...just let them move on...  "these are not the droids you're looking for"

(STAR WARS 2day!!!!!!!!!!)

[adodd81802]

It's one of the reasons I never considered becoming a teacher in the piano world, I just wouldn't have the patience with children that don't understand or set in their ways or parents that think you're just taking them for a ride taking their "prodigies" back to basics.

[dcstudio]

It's one of the reasons I never considered becoming a teacher in the piano world, I just wouldn't have the patience with children that don't understand or set in their ways or parents that think you're just taking them for a ride taking their "prodigies" back to basics.

this is why I tend to get a little miffed at folks who lay all the blame at the feet of piano teachers... especially when those "folks" have never in their life taught a piano lesson...much less carried a student load for any period of time.  If they had they would be singing a different tune... Sure there are bad teachers but there are many IMPOSSIBLE students as well...  somehow this is also blamed on the teacher.  It's not fair.       ;DLOL   sometimes it's the parent that is impossible...and again... it's the teacher who is bad-mouthed.  When certain members start ranting about this stuff--who aren't in the business--and have never seen it but from their own miniscule prospective as a student--- it's very hard not to pull a Nigerhyzi (or whatever that banned member's name was) and flip out...lol.

[boxjuice]

In my experience, the single most effective way of reducing mistakes is slow practice, its actually uncanny how well it works.

To professionals/advanced players: how much mistakes would you concider an acceptable amount?

[dcstudio]

In my experience, the single most effective way of reducing mistakes is slow practice, its actually uncanny how well it works.

To professionals/advanced players: how much mistakes would you concider an acceptable amount?

I have played clean and no one noticed--and I have caked up all over the place and had a standing ovation...

I gave up tracking how many notes I flubbed... I used to count them just like sheep as I laid in bed at night--which is probably why I was an insomniac.

mistakes are unacceptable... but you can't lose sleep over them either.