An optimized Hanon, the solution to the controversy whether Hanon is useful?

[scientificpianopractise]

Hanon makes you practice all the permutations of a pattern, up and down the keyboard.  There is definitely not a reason to go up and down the keyboard that I can think of. 

I also do not think there is a reason to practice all possible permutations since they are extremely unlikely to occur in real music.

I think there is a faster way. 

I devised a new "Hanon in 60 seconds".  It works for me if I play it every day.

Any feedback would be much appreciated.  My email is piano at avabiz.com

[georgey]

Hello,  I did not look at your link for the below reasons, and so I cannot say for sure your “Hanon in 60 seconds” is not good.  Here is why I did not look at your link:

You say: Hanon makes you practice all the permutations of a pattern, up and down the keyboard.  There is definitely not a reason to go up and down the keyboard that I can think of. 

Composers often write up and down the keyboard.  Example: Chopin etude op.10 #1, and Beethoven Sonata Op 2 #1 first movement measure 36 has a 3 octave scale for the RH.  I’m sure you can find more examples if you look.

You say: I also do not think there is a reason to practice all possible permutations since they are extremely unlikely to occur in real music.

The first 20 exercises of Hanon involve 5 finger patterns where the first 4 note pattern is connected to a second 4 note pattern.  If Hanon did not repeat any notes in the first and second 4 note patterns (which he does. Example: his exercise #2 repeats the F note in the first measure of his second 4 note pattern), there would be (5!)^2 permutations (5 factorial squared = 5x4x3x2x5x4x3x2=14,400 permutations).  But he does repeat notes, so there are more than that.  (This is not a definitive number, there are other ways you can look at what he did in the first 20 exercises to come up with a different count.  But the number would still be very large if you are looking at all permutations.) As you can see, his first 20 exercises is only a small fraction of 14,400+ possible permutations, so he does not have “all possible permutations” as you say.  He has what I call “selected permutations”.

You say: I think there is a faster way.  I devised a new "Hanon in 60 seconds".

I devised an even faster way that may meet all you requirements (less “up and down” and not all permutations are played).  I call it “Hanon in 50 seconds.”  Here is how it is done:  Play the first exercise of Hanon at any speed you like, but only up to measure 7 before descending.  Stop after 50 seconds are up, even if you have not finished the exercise.  Of course I am being silly here!

Again, you may have a good idea, but this is why I chose to not look at your work. I wish you luck!

[georgey]

Correction and clarification:

Example: his exercise #2 repeats the F note in the first measure of his second 4 note pattern),

Example: In the 1st measure of his exercise #2, he repeats the F note in the second 4 note pattern),

The first 4 note pattern being notes: C E A G using 1, 2, 5, 4 fingering
The second 4 note pattern being notes: F G F E using 3, 4, 3, 2 fingering

Math people: Please check my math if you like this kind of thing.

EDIT:  I may get kicked for this, but "up and down" also spreads wear and tear on the piano?

[adodd81802]

I devised a new "Hanon in 60 seconds".  It works for me if I play it every day.  See:

I think this quote, more than anything is the main issue.

The "Hanon" discussion is always going to be on the fence, not because Hanon is the master of all exercises and certainly not because Hanon is going to kill your hands.

The real reason is that simply some people play the piano correctly and some do not.

There are two main things to point out. Firstly playing the piano is not a specifically labor intensive task. You should not need to play something every day just in order for it to work.

While it is no means an easy task to get better, it should not be so difficult if you are practicing correctly. By that I mean, you will hear people often say "no matter what I do..." or "I practice for hours and still can't do it..."

This is the big division of people, and why some swear blind on scales, on Hanon, on Czerny, or on just practicing the pieces and why some will tell you the same method ruined their life.

The second point and what is also misunderstood for many is that, like riding a bike, the technique for playing the piano is something that is learnt correctly and is felt. It's not drilled into you, meaning you have to think hard, or really try, it's something that can be very difficult to start but once you get it, YOU'VE GOT IT! For some that may be natural, instinctive, or simply a case of a great teacher showing you exactly what is required.

How many people had help learning to ride a bike? Yet many expect to be able to just play the piano from spending hours pressing notes, because their fingers can already do this.

Here's where the main difference lies, Playing the piano doesn't require one technical capability. It takes multiple. It's like learning to ride a bike, a tricycle and a unicycle to name a few. There are different motions, thoughts and requirements and so why you may be able to do fast arpeggios you may struggle with scales, or fast octaves.

So here's why teachers still use Hanon. IN CONJUNCTION with the right teaching, with the correct practice, Hanon is used to improve and reinforce technique with different exercises and drills. The exercises have been designed in a progressive way in line of somebody that may be learning the piano in the same progressive way.

The goal here should not be to bash out 1-20 in a month and have no time for learning any pieces etc. Hanon in 60 seconds, in my honest opinion doesn't even make sense. It is offering a false shortcut to the same gains that are not even being achieved simply by playing these exercises.

If anything, these exercises are a useful tool to identify areas that need correcting, and if played correctly are simply reinforcing those correct motions.

So back to my original concern on the quote - It works for me if I play every day. What works? What does this even mean? You are relearning to ride a bike every day? You are riding a bike faster every day?

Get off your bike, and grab a unicycle

[georgey]

Last response:  I take it that you did not look at the “Hanon in 60 seconds” then? Well said and  I agree with most everything said, except I personally like having a short “general warmup” that is done each day to warm up the muscles, joints, tendons, brain, etc.  60 seconds may be a little short to do this, but a 5-10 minute routine may not be bad.  Would you say there is no need to do warmups or a general warmup routine?  What percent of the top 100 classical pianists playing today (assuming there exists a definitive list) play warmup exercises most days (even if only for 60 seconds)?  This is a statistic that would have some meaning to me in forming a conclusion about warmups.  Also, I will be reading some material recommended to me that may shed some light on the need or lack of need to warm up. Thanks!

[anamnesis]

Last response:  I take it that you did not look at the “Hanon in 60 seconds” then? Well said and  I agree with most everything said, except I personally like having a short “general warmup” that is done each day to warm up the muscles, joints, tendons, brain, etc.  60 seconds may be a little short to do this, but a 5-10 minute routine may not be bad.  Would you say there is no need to do warmups or a general warmup routine?  What percent of the top 100 classical pianists playing today (assuming there exists a definitive list) play warmup exercises most days (even if only for 60 seconds)?  This is a statistic that would have some meaning to me in forming a conclusion about warmups.  Also, I will be reading some material recommended to me that may shed some light on the need or lack of need to warm up. Thanks!

Most warmup methods don't focus on the correct issues at all.  

Most people need more help to be setup to produce a basic rhythm, but that is almost never the focus.  Something like the simple Hanon patterns or even single note scales should be the last part of the warm after they are setup to use this basic rhythm.  

Those who understand how to use a basic rhythm and have a piece ready, can use an outline of a virtuosic piece like a Chopin etude that they fill in throughout the warmup.  

Afterwards, a combination of tonal pattern work (scales, arpeggios, cadences, etc....) with improvisation can be used to help set up the ear (and to a lesser degree finger muscle and tactile ) memory for pieces relevant to the keys and tonalities they are about to work with.  

Most people waste time on endless scale practice, that would have been better spent on something like aurally understanding and memorizing every aspect of Boulanger's cadences for the key they are about to work in. 

[georgey]

"The Honeymooners" is an American sitcom of the late 1950's.  Ed Norton (a character on the show that played the piano) liked to warm up before EVERY song by playing a 4 second portion of "Way down upon a Swanee River" followed by a 3 second intro that took you into the next song.  He would play Swanee River and the 3 second intro always in the same speed and in C major, even though the song that he would then play was in another key and was fast or slow.  After a few songs, his friend Ralph would yell "will you stop that". You have to see this to appreciate the humor.  I take it that you are not 100% against warmups though.  I agree with what you are saying.  Thanks!

[anamnesis]

"The Honeymooners" is an American sitcom of the late 1950's.  Ed Norton (a character on the show that played the piano) liked to warm up before EVERY song by playing a 4 second portion of "Way down upon a Swanee River" followed by a 3 second intro that took you into the next song.  He would play Swanee River and the 3 second intro always in the same speed and in C major, even though the song that he would then play was in another key and was fast or slow.  After a few songs, his friend Ralph would yell "will you stop that". You have to see this to appreciate the humor.  I take it that you are not 100% against warmups though.  I agree with what you are saying.  Thanks!

Just saw it, definitely funny, but there's a definite truth to it.  Pieces you've already learned where you've established a basic rhythm and aural image are the easiest way to set you up. 

Definitely not against warmups, I just don't like wasting time. 

For what it's worth, Sophia Rosoff has an interesting setup routine based on Abby Whiteside's pedagogy that is described here:

https://pqdtopen.proquest.com/doc/912997716.html?FMT=ABS

[georgey]

I'm glad you saw this!  I did not see this for many years so after writing my last post, I went onto Wikipedia to see if I was remembering the episode correctly.  It turns out that Ralph was in a song identification contest to win money so he had his friend Ed play 100's of songs on the piano for Ralph to help him in the contest.  Before every song, Ed would play Swanee River as a warmup.  Ralph did well in the contest except for t The fist song he had to identify [in the contest] was Swanee River and the author of this song.  But this was the 1 song that Ralph did not know.  He just thought it was his friend Ed's warmup piece.  So Ralph said Ed Norton wrote Swanee River and Ralph lost the contest.  I just bought the complete 39 episodes on Amazon.  I agree with everything you say.  Thank you!!

[scientificpianopractise]

"Composers often write up and down the keyboard.  Example: Chopin etude op.10 #1, and Beethoven Sonata Op 2 #1 first movement measure 36 has a 3 octave scale for the RH.  I’m sure you can find more examples if you look."

True.  But does this motion really need much practice?

"He does not have “all possible permutations” as you say.  He has what I call “selected permutations”.

True.  But is more than one permutation actually needed?

But let's think about this a little longer.  Hanon lived in the 19th century.  Czerny lived in the 18th century.  How come there is nothing better in the last hundred years?  Was there anything extremely special about Hanon?  Was he a super-genius of some sort?  Or are we just all complacent about piano practice? 

I was reading about how gymnastics practice has improved and become more efficient.

It is time to improve piano practice and make it more efficient.  My "Hanon in 60 Seconds" is a first step.

[dogperson]

It is irritating that you pop back on this forum periodically to advertise your 'Hanon in 60 seconds', but have not contributed in any other way to the forum or the discussions. 

[adodd81802]

"Composers often write up and down the keyboard.  Example: Chopin etude op.10 #1, and Beethoven Sonata Op 2 #1 first movement measure 36 has a 3 octave scale for the RH.  I’m sure you can find more examples if you look."

True.  But does this motion really need much practice?

"He does not have “all possible permutations” as you say.  He has what I call “selected permutations”.

True.  But is more than one permutation actually needed?

But let's think about this a little longer.  Hanon lived in the 19th century.  Czerny lived in the 18th century.  How come there is nothing better in the last hundred years?  Was there anything extremely special about Hanon?  Was he a super-genius of some sort?  Or are we just all complacent about piano practice?  

I was reading about how gymnastics practice has improved and become more efficient.

It is time to improve piano practice and make it more efficient.  My "Hanon in 60 Seconds" is a first step.

Firstly - Everything you're saying is just complete nonsense. You, just as Hanon did, are trying to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, to prey on the ignorant.

+1 it is a waste of time to resurrect your dead thread for advertising purposes.

Let's put The whole theory of Hanon into another (but relatable) scenario.

You write a daily blog on the internet and want to learn to touch type on the computer** so that you can type the blogs faster and spend the rest of your day procrastinating.

Now you've done your touch-typing course and can at a basic level press the keys and remember where most of them are.. Here's the divsion

What YOU'RE suggesting, as was Hanon, is that it is logical, and practical to rather than learn the combinations of letters that are useful for the language in which we're learning to type (piece of music we are trying to learn), but that you should daily practice every combination of letters.

Day 1
aa,ab,ac,ad,ae,af,ag,ah,ai,aj,ak,al,am,an,ao ETC

Day 2
ba,bb,bc,bd,be,bf,bg,bh,bi,bj,bk ETC

It is a waste of time, whether you do it for 6 hours or 6 minutes or 30 seconds, it is not truly preparing you for real pieces, because pieces are not random combinations of notes or chromatics, they are logical, thoughtful and structured, and anybody with any real experience at the piano will find patterns not only within a single piece, but between multiple pieces.

The reality of this is, all pieces come from Scales, Chords and arpeggios, and these are what should be practiced when not working on pieces.

Any educated person with half a brain can also discover, that pieces increase in incremental difficulty, and not only prepare you for more difficult pieces, but develop the so called skills Hanon promises to offer over the 100 year period you would likely need to spend to complete them as suggested.

I often conclude with this point in many arguments because it stands to reason - If Hanon in 60 seconds, or Hanon in any amount of seconds was truly the key to making a virtuoso pianist, why aren't we all virtuosos? Get yourself 100 non-pianists, get them all on your wonderful revolutionary ground breaking method and see how many of them make it to Carnegie hall.

**Touch type is the ability to type on a computer keyboard without needing to look at any of the letters