My journey with Chopin's Opus 25 #6 - a diary of sorts

[adodd81802]

.

[amytsuda]

It is really good, better than I can ever imagine to achieve... I was hoping to discover a pro can have a moment when they'd play like I do when learning a new piece, but I guess a pro would never share their secret. 

A piece that takes nearly 100% attention to perform well in practice can really get take down a few notches when the presence of people (or even a RECORDER) gets involved. 

Do you also experience it goes even a few notches down when you play a bigger piano in a bigger room with the hood open? For this sort of piece (not this one, can't play this), my fingers start wobbling and my body is fatigued to keep up towards the end.

[pjjslp]

Last night I decided to impose a strict rule upon myself from this point one with 25 #6.  No more sloppy playing.  Take it down to whatever tempo is required to get every note to speak properly.  I want to see where that takes me for the next month or so.

I have nowhere near the ability to play this piece, but I wanted to say I'm thoroughly enjoying reading this thread. Your recording was wonderful and made my hands feel fatigued just listening to it! Your new rule is a tough one. I imposed the same rule on myself with the Moonlight 3rd movement, and it lasted for almost 2 weeks before I couldn't resist the temptation to try it faster. I was pleased to find that the slow practice cleaned up a couple of spots, but others are still a mess. I admire the discipline required for slow practice.

Anyway, no intent to hijack. I look forward to continuing to follow your journey. I think our histories are similar, although you definitely achieved a higher level of mastery in your younger days than I could dream of

[jimroof]

OK, more slow practice since the last time, plus a couple of days off while I traveled earlier in the week.  I also stained my right wrist just a bit yesterday after trying to start my lawn more about 60 times before it cranked up...

This recording is one take - warts and all.  I am now having some trouble with the descending scales in a few places, but some of that might be my wrist as this part gave me a little twinge of pain.  I used my son's Olympus stereo recorder for this, but I did not turn the auto gain off so the dynamics are almost completely lost in this recording.  Still, I hear progress from the recording just a few weeks ago.  I feel if I were in a studio and had an hour to record this (and do some edits) I could get it down to tape in listenable shape.  I still think this is about 2 months away from being truly performance ready - and it will have taken about 6 months by then of 30 minutes to an hour per day on it.

[jimroof]

4/16/2016

It has now been about 4 months since I decided to learn this piece.  My last recording was pretty rough and much of that was due to some carpal tunnel pain I developed while practice 25,6 and 10,2. 

As of today, this is where things stand...

1. All ascending thirds scales can be done at full tempo when I am not worn out from practicing it.  After about 3 times through I need a break or I start to feel the effects and start to get sloppy.

2. Trills are just a hair under the marked tempo it seems.  Half note = 130 is now very doable and with pretty good clarity.

3.  Descending scales are harder than ascending.  Just need more work here. 

4.  Broken 'zig zag' G7 are a piece of cake.  F7... harder.  Double broken dim 7ths... still the are that needs the most work.

I am practicing this about a half hour per day along with 10,2 - Various sections of Brahms 2nd and now also relearning Beethoven Concerto 3.  Also adding daily to my grasp of Chopin Scherzo 2.  I am actually doing a lot, come to think of it. 

6 months was my last ETA for performance readiness (middle of June) for 25,6.  That is very much on target. 

[ahoffmann]

I found this thread from the other thread about the op 10 no 2. It's really inspiring that you're going this. I think I can also share some experience I have with this etude.

This etude is not only one of the hardest but also one of the most beautiful. I was captivated by it before I even first started with the piano. I was fascinated how somebody could play two notes at the same time but do it in runs the way you'd normally do with single notes. It seemed like wizardry.

Some ideas I have for exercises that really helped me. You know the tabletop idea? Well much better still is to practice at the piano while doing something else. I used to watch TV but now days I put my laptop on my piano and turn on something that isn't music. Meanwhile, don't just play the trills but hold down one half while repeatedly striking the other. For the opening section, hold down 1,4 and strike 2,5 often. Then vice versa. Concentrate only on getting them perfectly together while staying within your range of mobility (don't brute force the fingers). But do all this while watching something else. You want this motion to feel as natural as possible. You want striking two keys together to feel just as normal as striking one. Let your body learn to do it without having to micromanage with your conscious attention.
You can also try that in dotted rhythms etc.

I found that helped me a lot.

Somebody mentioned Czerny op 740 no 10. I didn't do that one but I did do no 34 and it really helped.

That terrible descending scale on page 2. I'm currently testing the viability of an alternative fingering that gets around having to double-strike the thumb. It's early days but, honestly, I don't think that run will ever be anything but extremely difficult.

And yes, your'e right, one has to remind oneself that these pieces take a lot of time. I remember reading somewhere that Ashkenazy said it took him 10 years to technically master the Op 10 no 1. He certainly succeeded eventually.

Good luck.

[jimroof]

Let me know what you come up with an alternate fingering for that devilish scale.

While you are at it - how about an easy fingering for playing a D major scale in thirds with the right hand alone at a tempo of about 186 and 16th notes...  (measures 267 & 268, Brahms 2nd Piano Concerto, 4th movement).

Why am I doing this to myself? 

[ahoffmann]

While you are at it - how about an easy fingering for playing a D major scale in thirds with the right hand alone at a tempo of about 186 and 16th notes...  (measures 267 & 268, Brahms 2nd Piano Concerto, 4th movement).

Oh boy. That one's bad. The only alternative to the standard I can think of is to try and shift the fingering pattern so that the thumb can slide from C# to D instead of having to double-tap on white keys. But that might just replace one difficulty with another. Failing that I'd try to make the double tap as similar to a slide/glissando as possible. You can practice doing a controlled ascending glissando with just the thumb. But doing that right at full speed while having another voice to play in the same hand - that will take some to say the least

I just realized that... .cough.... you COULD theoretically also help out with the left hand. It could take over some of the notes to avoid the double-tapping. But the insane thing about that is that you're playing 7 against 6. Lol. Talk about a coordination challenge.
 

Why am I doing this to myself? 

Because you're a freak like me. I ask myself that frequently too though.

[jimroof]

I actually started a thread on that D major scale and I think I found a way to get the 4th movement Brahms scale playable. 

There are well-known 'cheats' and one involves playing all the top notes but only the D and A, meaning it is not a thirds scale at all, but you do hear the tonic and dominant tones.  My idea is to break it into two 5 finger groups, D and A, and instead of the 'whole hand hop' to the G and B that is in between, play ONLY the B with 2.  This breaks the entire scale down into two larger movements and no thumb hopping at all on successive keys.

Of course... it IS a cheat, but musically I think it would be nearly imperceptible.  The other GOOD thing about this cheat is that it fits right in with learning it the way it is written.  If one can play it my way with the one note missing, the hand is STILL in position to play the G before the A.

As evidence of my insanity, I was nearly ecstatic to have discovered this last night.

[ahoffmann]

Yes. That's exactly what I would do if I found that I couldn't play all the notes. It's a simple strategy: leave out notes one by one starting with the biggest trouble-maker. And your correctly identified which one that is.

And just as you said, it's also good because you're effectively doing the same movement. In my experience you'll find if you try different pianos, that some lighter ones you can do even the hard fingering.

I also suggest an inbetween step. After you've learned it with the "cheat", then just touch the key with the thumb without pressing it down and slide it over to the next. That shouldn't be any harder yet. Then you're basically with one foot over the finish line. You might find if that feels normal, it's only a matter of controlling your arm weight in a kind of curve and it might feel like the key is pressed automatically - like a mini-glissando.

In case you haven't learned of it yet, there is also a sort of cheat in the Chopin etude in the descending A-major scale toward the end. You can use the left hand to play the double-tapping thirds. Some people would call that cheating and others wouldn't.

[jimroof]

I have resolved to man up on that A descending thirds scale in the Etude.  That scale is nowhere as difficult as the G# harmonic minor.  By the time I have the G#m working well the A is nothing.  I do not know why people cheat on this unless they feel they get just a little more evenness that way. 

I sort of look at like these are ETUDES, not brain teasers in which the goal is to find an easy way to play them.

[pianiststrongbad]

Hi Jim, thanks for sharing your experiences with this piece. It was interesting to read.

I've spend a little time with this piece in the past (not nearly as much as you have it seems), but some time. I found I struggled most with the descending G# harmonic minor scale in measure 11. Not sure if this is the same section you are having difficulties with. I found the following fingering to work a little better for me than the provided one:
(42)(31)(42)(31) (42)(31)(53)(42) (31)etc... upper notes are listed first in the parenthesis.

Out of curiosity, have you looked at Godowsky's version at all? Besides being for the left hand, he also has a nice set of introductory exercises and provides some alternate fingerings to various passages (which can be applied to the RH) in the original. I found I couldn't really do it at all in my LH, but I will likely spend some time with it since 3rds like this do pop up in the LH from time to time.

I did finally order Cortot's edition of the Etudes (translated in English), he also provides a lot of preparatory information for this piece. He provides four fingering possibilities for this descending G# harmonic minor scale as well (in addition to a wealth of other information).

[jimroof]

Hi Jim, thanks for sharing your experiences with this piece. It was interesting to read.

I've spend a little time with this piece in the past (not nearly as much as you have it seems), but some time. I found I struggled most with the descending G# harmonic minor scale in measure 11. Not sure if this is the same section you are having difficulties with. I found the following fingering to work a little better for me than the provided one:
(42)(31)(42)(31) (42)(31)(53)(42) (31)etc... upper notes are listed first in the parenthesis.

Out of curiosity, have you looked at Godowsky's version at all? Besides being for the left hand, he also has a nice set of introductory exercises and provides some alternate fingerings to various passages (which can be applied to the RH) in the original. I found I couldn't really do it at all in my LH, but I will likely spend some time with it since 3rds like this do pop up in the LH from time to time.

I did finally order Cortot's edition of the Etudes (translated in English), he also provides a lot of preparatory information for this piece. He provides four fingering possibilities for this descending G# harmonic minor scale as well (in addition to a wealth of other information).

My hand was a bit sore in that last recording and it showed.  I have been working this and 10/2 fairly hard as well as some of the tougher sections of Brahms Concerto 2 (the 'impossible' trills).  I am comfortable with my fingering for this (4/2 3/1 5/3 4/2 3/1 2/1 5/4 4/2 3/1) but it does need more time to be sure.

[ahoffmann]

Btw. have you taken a look at Saint Saëns Etudes Op 111 ? In particular no 1 and 5:

[jimroof]

I am going to do something a little different this time...  I am going to post here some of my progress, but I am posting the recording I made today in the Audition Room.  It STILL has a way to go, but I feel there is definitely light at the end of the tunnel.

My right hand was somewhat sore a few weeks ago.  I was working on 25/6 and 10/2 as well as some difficult 4-5 trills in Brahms 2nd Concerto.  I think I overdid things so I backed off a lot.  I was out of town for the last three days and had no piano.

So, when I returned today I thought I would see where things stood.  I recorded 25/6 as a progress report.  I think my tempo was around 120 (quarter, versus the indicated 69 for the half note) so the velocity is still not there.  BUT, it HAS been there in spurts - just not today.

I am going to go back to SLOW practice.  That gained a lot for me a few months ago on this and I am going to give myself that treatment again. 

Head over the the Audition room where you will find the recording I made today.  There are errors, but this thing is still a biatch.

[jimroof]

Been a while since I posted on this topic.

Frankly, I started to get a little weary of hearing these chromatic thirds scales and my wife would echo that sentiment magnified with the aid of a good scientific calculator...

I have been installing new window sashes in my house and part of that process requires one to use their right hand as a battering ram (palm strikes to the side mounted balances).  That made me hand feel a little sore starting about 2 weeks ago and it is just now subsiding.

However, on a good day when I am warmed up, this thing continues to improve, though be smaller increments than before.  If I were in school I would be willing to perform this at the less scrutinized Friday 10:00 recitals that we had nicknamed 'SPASM' - Student Performance And Sometimes Music.

As for the technical things - ascending scales are all playable at the marked tempo of half note = 69, though I prefer to hear the quarter notes at 138.  Broken thirds chords (G7, F7 and the diminished) are all pretty clean with the cleanliness being ordered just as they appear in the score.  Here is the cool thing.  The F7 broken chords used to seem nearly impossible.  Now my hand just knows where to go with just the odd occasional lapse if my mind wanders.  The key it seems, for me, is to remain relaxed and aware, but not over-thinking it.  Trust the force, Luke.   Same goes for the pesky G#m descending scales that really presented serious problems for many weeks.  Now... very playable, but not as clean as I would like.  Even Lisitsis sort of blows through these with some aural ambiguities.

Funny, the VERY first part that I started working on was the last 4 octave descending minor thirds scale.  I thought that was likely to be the toughest spot as I approached performance levels.  I was right.  Maybe it was a mistake to commit to the sliding second finger... but I am locked in now.

Once my hand is fully restored from the pounding in of hardware (there really is no other way to get these things installed) I will record it again you can judge the progress. 

BTW, this marks 6 months at this piece.  Even at 59 now, I have no doubt that 6 months from now I will have it firmly mastered.  Performable on a good day now.  By next December, performable on ANY day.

[jimroof]

It has been a while since I posted an update...

Like most things humans do, there is diminishing returns on the effort spent once you start to reach the limits of what is possible.  Chopin apparently knew this limit would be right around the half note = 69 for this etude.

I am not taking this to the 'woodshed' as I did earlier on, but still keep the pressure on my ability to play it.  On a good day I am 90-95% there on tempo.  With a little rubato here and there to throw in under the guise of 'interpretation' the piece is now something I could perform, but the real polished and nuanced world class performances are my goal.  Unrealistic?  Maybe.  But I would rather swing for the fences and strike out than hit a Texas league blooper over second base.

One of these days I will record it and post it here.

I do recommend this etude highly if you are already skilled enough to play it at even 70% tempo.  It will do wonders for your right hand.  I now play thirds passages almost automatically that earlier would have been serious problems.

[amytsuda]

So excited to hear that you are still there working on it! I'd love to work on this, but I have so many pieces I want to learn while working long hours for my job that keep me away from my piano, I probably won't get there ever. But as you mention, there are certain pieces when you learn them they do wonders on your hands to play other pieces. Maybe, there's another monster piece you need to try which would now do wonders on this piece?! I really enjoyed your diary. Looking forward to what's next!

[keymasher]

Glad I finally found this thread and appreciate you sharing your experience.

This is a piece that I too have nervously attempted a couple of times, but have felt was beyond my abilities (for good reason, it's hard!).  I also really enjoy that you put out a few recordings that serve as progress reports.  The second one had sections that I thought were played superbly.  Maurizio Pollini couldn't have done better!