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Topic: Frustrated with new key c sharp minor (Read 2765 times)

pianocat3

Jr. Member
Posts: 79

Frustrated with new key c sharp minor

on: January 18, 2016, 06:50:52 PM

So I will bug my teacher about this too, but right now I'm frustrated. Are these key signatures supposed to become automatic at some point? I am just now learning c sharp minor along with d flat major, because I want to play Chopin's Raindrop Prelude. So there is a silly easy piece in c sharp minor I am working on to get used to it, suuuuuper easy, and I just cannot get it! D flat major seems to be much easier, as an aside, but I haven't worked on that one much yet.

Then I think, when it gets beyond one sharp or flat, I am still mentally reminding myself every time I come to a c, remember to sharp that! Oh, here comes an e, flat it!! As if the piece was one big long string of accidentals.

Now at some point, is this supposed to become automatic? I just play in the scale, and I will sharp or flat automatically? The mental reminders are not working well now that it's FOUR sharps. I do scales 5 or 10 minutes a day. I slack off sometimes. I blew an hour on this scale and super easy little practice piece today, really focusing, and got nowhere. I worked on it a few times before, but spent more time on it today and just very frustrated. I would have to write in all the sharps.

If it is supposed to become automatic, when does this happen? How can I help it along? Is this just normal and everyone goes through it? Thanks for any comments.

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brogers70

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Posts: 1695

Re: Frustrated with new key c sharp minor

Reply #1 on: January 18, 2016, 07:57:10 PM

One way to help it along is to play simple chord progressions in C# minor. So do C# minor, F# minor, G#7, C# minor. Then expand it a little, add in related chords, E major, B major, G# minor. Once you get the feel of a lot of the chords that are likely to come up in the key, it will seem more natural to you and you won't be constantly having to remind yourself which notes are sharped or flatted.

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quantum

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Posts: 6235

Re: Frustrated with new key c sharp minor

Reply #2 on: January 18, 2016, 08:09:32 PM

You need to give it some time. Sometimes with more complex keys the theory gets in the way. Start with something more fundamental: such as how does the key look on the keyboard, how do chords feel in the hand and appear on the keys, how does the scale feel and visualize. Be inquisitive: can you play simple familiar melodies in the new key? Where are the I, IV, and V chords of the key. Improvise simple tune using I, IV, V harmony.

Don't just stick to running the C# minor scales, as that will only train you to play the scale. You need to do something using that scale.

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pianocat3

Jr. Member
Posts: 79

Re: Frustrated with new key c sharp minor

Reply #3 on: January 18, 2016, 08:29:05 PM

I am supposed to be doing I IV and V chords at a minimum, my teacher has me do the grand scale with those chords. I got so messed up trying to get the scale in my head, trouble even hands seperate, I blew those off in frustration and started working the little practice piece unsuccessfully. I will work on all these suggestions this afternoon and see if it goes a little smoother! Thank you!!

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Debussy Prelude from Suite Bergamasque
Accompaniment music for cello and piano
Summer project is improvisation

dcstudio

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 2421

Re: Frustrated with new key c sharp minor

Reply #4 on: January 19, 2016, 01:43:46 AM

keys do become automatic after a while. Your hands become intimately familiar with the feel of each key and you won't have to think about it at all really. Practicing the i iv and V7 and then the entire chord scale along with C# harmonic, melodic, and pure minor scales will help immensely.
Db is a far easier key to play, students sometimes get intimidated by the 5 flats when they first glance at the key signature... but really it's pretty easy to remember that it's just all the black keys plus F and C.

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xdjuicebox

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 281

Re: Frustrated with new key c sharp minor

Reply #5 on: January 19, 2016, 06:02:04 AM

Quote from: pianocat3 on January 18, 2016, 06:50:52 PM

So I will bug my teacher about this too, but right now I'm frustrated. Are these key signatures supposed to become automatic at some point? I am just now learning c sharp minor along with d flat major, because I want to play Chopin's Raindrop Prelude. So there is a silly easy piece in c sharp minor I am working on to get used to it, suuuuuper easy, and I just cannot get it! D flat major seems to be much easier, as an aside, but I haven't worked on that one much yet.

Then I think, when it gets beyond one sharp or flat, I am still mentally reminding myself every time I come to a c, remember to sharp that! Oh, here comes an e, flat it!! As if the piece was one big long string of accidentals.

Now at some point, is this supposed to become automatic? I just play in the scale, and I will sharp or flat automatically? The mental reminders are not working well now that it's FOUR sharps. I do scales 5 or 10 minutes a day. I slack off sometimes. I blew an hour on this scale and super easy little practice piece today, really focusing, and got nowhere. I worked on it a few times before, but spent more time on it today and just very frustrated. I would have to write in all the sharps.

If it is supposed to become automatic, when does this happen? How can I help it along? Is this just normal and everyone goes through it? Thanks for any comments.

It should become automatic. But, if you only play scales mindlessly, then you MIGHT get it, but more often than not, you won't. C# minor and E major have the same key signature, and when you play a piece in C# minor or E major, only those keys should "light up" in your head, and maybe go through some other notes (in particular, C natural, since a lot of that music dances into the harmonic minor) as well.

Analyze the music. Play through all of the chords, recognize their function, what they are. In your scales practice, play through all of the chords in E/C# minor, as well as their inversions, and maybe add some extensions. Play some common pieces in E (for me, I'll play Liebestraume No. 3, Mozart k.545, Bach WTC 1-1, and other really easy to play stuff in whatever key to practice my transposing skills, but that's for when it's like literally second nature)

Make sure you practice your scales at bare minimum though.

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trollbuster

Jr. Member
Posts: 31

Re: Frustrated with new key c sharp minor

Reply #6 on: January 19, 2016, 07:25:34 AM

Quote from: xdjuicebox on January 19, 2016, 06:02:04 AM

(in particular, C natural, since a lot of that music dances into the harmonic minor) as well.

Make sure you practice your scales at bare minimum though.

oh yeah you are giving advice? learn to spell your scales before you try telling other people what they should be practicing

the leading tone in the key of C# minor is B# the raised 7th scale degree. To refer to it as C natural means you have no understanding of the harmonic minor scales or theory in general you just want to sound like someone who knows what they are talking about.

C natural can be in the key of E major as the lowered 6th scale degree

get your facts straight before you start spewing BS

and sure you play those pieces you have listed yeah right.

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trollbuster

Jr. Member
Posts: 31

Re: Frustrated with new key c sharp minor

Reply #7 on: January 19, 2016, 08:41:48 AM

Quote from: xdjuicebox on January 19, 2016, 06:02:04 AM

Play some common pieces in E (for me, I'll play Liebestraume No. 3, Mozart k.545, Bach WTC 1-1, and other really easy to play stuff
Make sure you practice your scales at bare minimum though.

Liebestraume is in Ab modulates to B then C then back to Ab it's not a common piece in E

really easy to play and you use it to practice transposition and yet you referred to the leading tone as the lowered root .

who do you think you are fooling you don't play any of that "stuff"

wow that's a pretty big line of BS

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adodd81802

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 1114

Re: Frustrated with new key c sharp minor

Reply #8 on: January 19, 2016, 09:30:19 AM

Quote from: trollbuster on January 19, 2016, 08:41:48 AM

Liebestraume is in Ab modulates to B then C then back to Ab it's not a common piece in E

really easy to play and you use it to practice transposition and yet you referred to the leading tone as the lowered root .

who do you think you are fooling you don't play any of that "stuff"

wow that's a pretty big line of BS

I think the biggest "BS" here is you making a 2nd account to go and slander people. Either use your main account and stop being a coward, or refrain from commenting unless it has a positive, productive, purpose.

INTERNET IS THE PLACE FOR BS.

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trollbuster

Jr. Member
Posts: 31

Re: Frustrated with new key c sharp minor

Reply #9 on: January 19, 2016, 02:42:05 PM

Quote from: adodd81802 on January 19, 2016, 09:30:19 AM

I think the biggest "BS" here is you making a 2nd account to go and slander people. Either use your main account and stop being a coward, or refrain from commenting unless it has a positive, productive, purpose.

INTERNET IS THE PLACE FOR BS.

it's libel not slander

and it's neither because the trollbuster only speaks the truth.

trollbuster tired of BS
trollbuster knows xdjuicebox does not play Liebestraum
trollbuster wonders why adodd81802 is defending xdjuicebox
trollbuster sad

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xdjuicebox

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 281

Re: Frustrated with new key c sharp minor

Reply #10 on: January 19, 2016, 10:02:53 PM

Quote from: trollbuster on January 19, 2016, 08:41:48 AM

Liebestraume is in Ab modulates to B then C then back to Ab it's not a common piece in E

really easy to play and you use it to practice transposition and yet you referred to the leading tone as the lowered root .

who do you think you are fooling you don't play any of that "stuff"

wow that's a pretty big line of BS

Of course I know the piece is in Ab...but it does have a section in E.

I mean transpose it to E yourself, whether first on paper, or just on the spot (I do it on the spot since I'm a lazy guy).

And you're right, I don't know anything about my scales

About a month after I learned it, still a bit sloppy here but I don't have any recent recordings. Forgive the terrible playing/out of tuneness of my piano
Oh god ignore the cadenzas that should be a crime

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dcstudio

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 2421

Re: Frustrated with new key c sharp minor

Reply #11 on: January 19, 2016, 11:03:47 PM

Quote from: xdjuicebox on January 19, 2016, 10:02:53 PM

Of course I know the piece is in Ab...but it does have a section in E.

I mean transpose it to E yourself, whether first on paper, or just on the spot (I do it on the spot since I'm a lazy guy).

And you're right, I don't know anything about my scales

About a month after I learned it, still a bit sloppy here but I don't have any recent recordings. Forgive the terrible playing/out of tuneness of my piano
Oh god ignore the cadenzas that should be a crime

Leibestraum has a section in B not in E

E has 4 sharps. B has 5 sharps

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ted

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 3999

Re: Frustrated with new key c sharp minor

Reply #12 on: January 19, 2016, 11:20:10 PM

To revert to the original question, as usual, quantum's suggestion is to the point. Thinking in terms of written notation obstructs fluency. Jazz pianists usually have one over the classical brigade in this respect because most of them are used to playing things without notation, using haptic, visual and aural feedback. One thing you could do to eliminate key preference and make all keys equally accessible is to play every new idea you have around the twelve positions as a habitual exercise. This can be done in very many ways, but one good way is to improvise within each scale subset around the key circle.

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xdjuicebox

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Sr. Member
Posts: 281

Re: Frustrated with new key c sharp minor

Reply #13 on: January 20, 2016, 12:22:53 AM

Quote from: dcstudio on January 19, 2016, 11:03:47 PM

Leibestraum has a section in B not in E

E has 4 sharps. B has 5 sharps

It's written in B, but E is functioning as the tonic in that section. Shortly followed by Eb before a cadenza which brings us back to Ab.

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dcstudio

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Posts: 2421

Re: Frustrated with new key c sharp minor

Reply #14 on: January 20, 2016, 12:56:49 AM

Quote from: xdjuicebox on January 20, 2016, 12:22:53 AM

It's written in B, but E is functioning as the tonic in that section. Shortly followed by Eb before a cadenza which brings us back to Ab.

I am afraid that is not correct. E is not functioning as tonic in mm 32-42... it's in G# minor followed by a cadence (not a cadenza) in C which brings us to the next key signature which is A minor where the E is functioning as dominant. At mm 49 there is a brief cadence in G#min. At mm 55 we see a 2nd inversion Fmin chord then Db. Then we return to Ab. E is not functioning as tonic anywhere in all of the Liebestraume 3. There is also no modulation to Eb preceding the return to the tonic key at mm 56. If you feel I am in error please post the section you are referring to and show me your analysis. I love theory

it's been a while since music school... maybe I am wrong and there is a measure where E is functioning as tonic but there is no "section" in E major. I will gladly concede if you can provide your analysis. If you know nothing of scales or key signatures then this is someone else's analysis. How can you be so sure you are correct.

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dcstudio

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Posts: 2421

Re: Frustrated with new key c sharp minor

Reply #15 on: January 20, 2016, 01:59:07 AM

I watched your video.

I like you and I like your playing in spite of the sloppiness and the pedaling. My analysis is flawed, I was hoping you would catch it. You are referring to mm 47-56 which is written in C/A minor not the section written in B.

you are too good of a player to not have a strong theory foundation. Learn to speak theory fluently. this is me... I am an old jazz pianist who was very classically trained. so this is Gershwin and me at a gig a few weeks ago.

or if you would like to hear me caking up Beethoven click this link

pretty brave of you to post that XD members here take their piano very seriously. Polish it up and lets hear it again.

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mjames

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Posts: 2555

Re: Frustrated with new key c sharp minor

Reply #16 on: January 20, 2016, 02:00:21 AM

how the hell are you playing Chopin's ballades lol.....for someone at that level your playing is quite a mess. I suggest that you reevaluate your pedaling. It's not supposed to be used like a light-switch.

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xdjuicebox

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Sr. Member
Posts: 281

Re: Frustrated with new key c sharp minor

Reply #17 on: January 20, 2016, 03:26:37 AM

Haha to be honest I'm probably wrong, since I actually have very little training in formal theory, but let me explain myself. The main theme is restated IN E, which no doubt led me to believe that that part was in E, instead of the dominant of a minor.

Don't worry, I'm going to go to school for music in the fall.

In terms of my playing, I know I'm not that good (I certainly wasn't back then, that was about a year and a half ago), but I'm trying to clean up my pedaling haha. Also I didn't have a teacher at the time. You'll note I did say "excuse the bad playing." I didn't post that as evidence that I'm good at playing, I'm posting that as evidence that I "played" Liebestraume.

In terms of Chopin's Ballades, I assure you I'm being as precise as I can with the pedaling. And I'm going back to a teacher soon.

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dcstudio

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Posts: 2421

Re: Frustrated with new key c sharp minor

Reply #18 on: January 20, 2016, 08:41:04 AM

Quote from: xdjuicebox on January 20, 2016, 03:26:37 AM

, I'm posting that as evidence that I "played" Liebestraume.

.

fair enough

and best of luck to you at music school.

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