Chopin Waltz op. 64 no. 1 (Minute Waltz) - help needed

[francoisfj]

Hello, I just started learning that waltz a couple days ago, and I was improving until I got stuck with some sections, I tried many ways to do them but it's not working as I want it to.

The first thing is the first 4 measures, they're supposed to be easy except I can't play them clearly and fast, if I try to, some notes (especially the C with the 5th finger) doesn't get played. Is my hand position the problem? What can I do to be able to play it fast and clearly?

The second thing are the trills, they're not clear enough, I'm using a 243 fingering on all of them, that's what I do usually for trills. At first it was worst, so I tried playing the trills slower so that they become clearer, but is it too slow now? An advice for trills in general would be appreciate as well.

Finally, for the pedalling, should it be played with half a pedal only?

Thank you

[adodd81802]

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[lateromantic]

So firstly, i'd practice the whole thing without pedal.

Exactly what I was thinking!  The pedaling was so muddy that it was hard to hear what he was doing.  I know the two hands were out out of sync, but I couldn't hear which one was ahead of the other!

[francoisfj]

Hello,

So I am a massive fan of this piece, and I too have struggled with many aspects of it in the past.

One thing Chopin said was correct fingering was a major requirement in playing pieces effortlessly, and this piece is no exception.

So firstly, i'd practice the whole thing without pedal. On most parts of this piece I personally don't pedal or partially pedal for the base notes to bring out that um-pa-pa sound.

After listening to your pedal, it seems on paper- correct, because you are lifting it on the 3rd beat, but you must remember that pedal indication is just that - an indication, different pianos have different requirements and you can be sure when Chopin was writing that down, he didn't have a 2014 stieinway in mind... (example)

So if you want pedal at all, i'd hold down for the base note to connect the jump to the chords.
Again for practice, practice without pedal until the clarity is achieved as definitely pedal can distort that and make you think your clarity is not what it is.

Now for the start, i use 1,2,5,3 rather than 1,2,4,3 that agrees with my fingers a lot more, that's really your only 2 options so try both and practice the motion until it's comfortable as it's repeated a lot on this piece.

when you say trills, There are two sections here, the first which is the flick between the Eb and F i believe and then there's a couple around the F/Gb/A/b as you're going up.

For the first section, me personally the idea of doing that as 2,4,3 doesn't work, i'd do 2,4,2 or 2,3,2 some scores even recommend 3,5,3 but that's a bit weak for my hands. On the second section, you can be very flexible on what works for you, I re-arrange my fingers so I can 2,3,2 it's the strongest 2 fingers for that in my opinion.

One thing you may come across, is that you have a fingering set out for a part, that works, then you get to another part and the fingering doesn't work, know that you may have to adjust both parts to make the fingering work when playing the parts together. So there is flexibility in the fingering, and don't be set on one idea for all parts just go through it slowly and see what really works.

Also know that it's not just your fingers, really focus, does your wrist bend a little to improve clarity, does your arm turn in to do the mordents, really work out what you do when playing slowly and keep all the motions included when looking at speed. The problem we have when speeding up too soon is that we then get flustered, focus just on the fingers hitting notes, forget the other motions and it inevitably falls apart.

2 points you made I want to address.

First to say you do usually play this way, or do something that way eg the 243 fingering... This is a mindset you need to avoid, every piece has different requirements and while yes you can apply previous experience and knowledge to a new piece, you have to be flexible on what works for the piece and you. not just you.

Second is you say when it's slow it works, when you speed it up it don't. The reality is then it probably doesn't work at all. motions at speed don't usually require much teaching if they were the right motions to begin with, play around with different fingers, even if they feel at first out of your comfort zone you may find they work in the long run.

You have also stated that you only started learning this piece a couple of days ago, now I don't know your past, or your current experience, but this is actually a high level piece and for the first few weeks I really wouldn't be concerned with your speed until you have really worked out the fingering and got those little mordents sorted as well as a smooth B major scale. There should never be pressure for speed until you honestly believe you're ready to bump it up, let me stress that again SPEED IS YOUR LAST PRIORITY.

It's definitely something I have had to come to terms with the hard way.

I am by no means an expert but I have come leaps and bounds in this piece over the last few weeks, I posted an audition last year and had some helpful feedback that allowed me to rethink my ideas and focus on areas that needed attention.

Here's the link to my performance, hopefully the angle can help you with the idea of some fingering ideas and motions. https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=59542.0

As said I have a soft spot for this piece and enjoy others trying to learn it also, so I'm happy to do some vids on bits I struggled with and how I over came them if you find that sort of thing helpful.

Thank you very much added81802! Your comment is very helpful! I've been practising with your tips and I will post a video soon to see if it's better

Only one thing that is still bothering me, for the trills in the first section, the tempo is quite fast, and I can't seem to be able to play the two Eb sequentially without omitting the second one. Is there a specific fingering for it or something? :/

[piulento]

Hi there!
Nice job overall, but you should use less pedal and work on your precision.
Try playing with no pedal at all for a while, so you can listen well to all of the details and work out the problems yourself by ear. I think maybe the over use of pedal makes it hard to notice what exactly is not working well.
Good luck!

[adodd81802]

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[francoisfj]

I know the exact Eb you're on about! it's a pain. so starting from the top Bb before we come down

here's the fingers I use 4,3.2.1 (Bb,Ab,Gb,F)

Then my whole hand moves over to the left and then for the 2nd F is 4 again, 2 on the Eb, now I do the Eb almost like a mini staccato where the whole hand comes up just a tiny bit to then commence the quick flick between the Eb/F. I'll post a vid example in slow and repeat a couple of times at a faster pace so you can see.

With regards to tempo, again I'll stress don't aim for speed, aim for getting the bits done and over a LONG period of time work at it. Govern the rest of your tempo by the speed at which you can play those little trills.

Oh ok I see! Thank you, if you do have time for a video I'd be grateful I think I have a problem with those kind of trills in general, not just in this piece :/

I'll try practising with this again!

[adodd81802]

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[jimroof]

The secret to pedaling has nothing to do with the foot.  It is the ears.

Your right foot needs to be subconsciously adapting to what your ears are taking in.  If you are in the position of having to THINK about pedaling then you need more time at the piano until you find yourself able to STOP thinking about it and just letting your ear guide the process.

Sort of like the fine steering of a car.  We THINK about the major turns, but we do NOT think about the fine corrective adjustments that keep us centered in the lane.