Got a new teacher, Question on methods? Should I dump him? Open for suggestions.

[reiyza]

So, I've started a new thread, since I got a teacher this february.

This is my story/background (skip if too long):
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=60513.msg649326#msg649326

My teacher is a 40y/o former conductor at a university.

I've assessed myself as an adult beginner, and then played a sonata from beethoven and mozart from the post above while trembling like hell, then the teacher told me that I'm no beginner but an advanced player(which I don't believe). But due to my poor sight reading skills and rhythm and uneveness of fingers he gave me this two following books.

Hanon "the virtuoso pianist in 60 exercises"
Danhauser Solfege de Solfeges - for my rhythm.

and told me to review my czerny 599 from exercise 10-45, before i start tackling my list of pieces I want.

The List(this is long, sorry) -
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=60704.msg651100#msg651100


This is what I'm afraid of, as stated by members of this forum czerny and hanon has little of use in technique development, he also emphasized playing with fingers raised high.

But he told me my goals are attainable, but will take many years, and to my surprise, He took ballade in G minor as a first piece to start after the above exercises, I barely even finished Etude 25 no 5!
(Is my teacher psychotic?)

Should I drop him and continue my self studies? Or should I continue to study with him?

Everyone's opinion is welcome and also trollbuster.

[lotal]

I would be way too much apprehensive of the teacher who demand Hanon and raising fingers high.

[reiyza]

@lotal - yes, that was also my initial reaction, be he said he could help me improve, he gave me hanon exercise 1 to 3 to begin with. I plan to study hanon with fingers very cloes to the keys and hope he doesn't notice, I'll practice it at full speed right away, since it's simple exercises like schmitt.

But I think he's aiming at the strength of the 4th and 5th finger, its a pity that he knows that the 4th an 5th are essentially using the same tendonds but he still advocated lifting them individually high during practice.

[dcstudio]

This is what I'm afraid of, as stated by members of this forum czerny and hanon has little of use in technique development, he also emphasized playing with fingers raised high.

click the link at the bottom and watch my hands.. I got that technique from Hanon and Czerny and from a whole lot of years of practice.  Solfege is taught in every university.   Your teacher is not psychotic he sounds amazing.

ask those members who campaign against the technical exercises to provide samples of their playing and their technique and then you can compare them for yourself.

[brogers70]

Lifting the fingers high in exercises is not necessarily "psychotic." My teacher has had me do that at times. It's not that you'll play like that when playing pieces, but playing exercises and scales with the fingers lifted high does have some benefits. It gets you to focus on the release of the key. It takes your mind off the striking of the key with your finger and can reduce the tension with which you actually strike the key. It forces you to concentrate on the individual motions of the fingers - you cannot, obviously, eliminate the shared tendons between the 3rd and 4th fingers, but you can train your brain to manage the fingers as independently as their anatomy will allow.

Hanon and Czerny (Hanon particularly) are a waste of time if you just shut off your brain and rattle through them. But if a teacher is showing you correct motions with which to play them, and if you use them to train good motions and to produce a good sound, then they can certainly be helpful. It sounds like your teacher is quite good. I'd hang in there, follow his directions, assume he knows what he's doing, and see how you feel after 6 months. If a teacher never told you anything that seemed non-obvious or counter-intuitive to you, then you would not need a teacher in the first place; you could just go on your intuition.

[dcstudio]

Hanon and Czerny (Hanon particularly) are a waste of time if you just shut off your brain and rattle through them. But if a teacher is showing you correct motions with which to play them, and if you use them to train good motions and to produce a good sound, then they can certainly be helpful. It sounds like your teacher is quite good. I'd hang in there, follow his directions, assume he knows what he's doing, and see how you feel after 6 months. If a teacher never told you anything that seemed non-obvious or counter-intuitive to you, then you would not need a teacher in the first place; you could just go on your intuition.

Amen!

[mjames]

So youre going to do nothing ut exercises? Damn thats tough, but if you hang on you'll be able to play the Ballade. :O

[dcstudio]

So youre going to do nothing but exercises?

when did he say that?  if that's the case I retract my previous statement.

[reiyza]

@brogers - but he wanted me to lift one finger high while the other 4 fingers are pressing the keys, Isn't that harmful? But yeah, I assume I'm just doing those for exercises only, So what.

@dcstudio - I kinda learned the intro of the ballade out of boredom,(I think it's the first 1-5 bars?)

Since I was only practicing on digital, I played the intro of the ballade on the acoustic piano of my teacher(which has surprisingly light action than the clavinova).

I think he got the impression that I want to play the ballade in G minor(which is correct but not so soon!), so he told me.

"you have a lot of potential, we just need to awaken your previously learned techniques from where you've stopped, then well fix your rhythm and the eveness of your fingers, I'll drill you with hanon and let's go back to review your czerny 599, lets take it slow and review first the exercise 10-45. I can help you develop your skill, then you will be prepared for the ballade"

@mjames - It's not that I don't want to learn the ballade no 1, since I view it's difficulty as very hellish. I find it hard to believe that he can prepare me for it with just czerny and hanon, and no chopin etude, mazurka, waltzes,

[dcstudio]

@dcstudio - I kinda learned the intro of the ballade out of boredom,(I think it's the first 1-5 bars?)

Since I was only practicing on digital, I played the intro of the ballade on the acoustic piano of my teacher(which has surprisingly light action than the clavinova).

I think he got the impression that I want to play the ballade in G minor(which is correct but not so soon!), so he told me.

"you have a lot of potential, we just need to awaken your previously learned techniques from where you've stopped, then well fix your rhythm and the eveness of your fingers, I'll drill you with hanon and let's go back to review your czerny 599, lets take it slow and review first the exercise 10-45. I can help you develop your skill, then you will be prepared for the ballade"

ok... so I am speaking now as a person who has been to university, taught for 20+ years, played for 47 and been getting paid to play for more than 20.  You have a great teacher.   How do I know? because his opening statements and actions are almost identical to mine and I think I am pretty experienced with the older not-so-beginner student.  There are so many adults who try to return to playing the piano and almost ALWAYS they are working on something in particular that has motivated them to seek instruction once again.  You played the Gmin Ballade so he assumed that was your "piece."  He was asking himself as you played "does this kid have a snowball's chance in hell of playing at this level?"  his answer was very enthusiastic and he immediately shared his plan with you to help you get there.  This man knows what he's talking about.   btw...lifting one finger high will the other 4 play is to teach you control... it is a standard technique exercise.

record yourself now...  then follow his instructions to the letter.  In a month or so record yourself again and compare the two.   You will know immediately if you have improved.

[reiyza]

@dcstudio - wow, so he really sees that much in me? Still having a hard time to believe it since I've been only play slow pieces and no pieces that are grade 8 yet. I also expected the ballade to be the last piece that we will tackle, so I was really surprised that he wanted me to prepare for it right away.

did you see the list of the pieces I want to play? when he saw it, his initial concern was the time or how long it would take to learn them all, since I've told him that "I don't mind going slow as long as I reach my goals" he replied "You will be able to play these pieces but it would take a lot of time, maybe even years", and I agreed to him.

Your insight dcstudio is really invaluable, Now I'm inclined to fully commit to my teacher's advice. Problem is, I initially disliked hanon, so when he demonstrated the first 3 exercises(with the fingers high motion) I didn't pay attention. So should it be played legato with fingers raised real high then gradually increasing the tempo while with the fingers still raised high?

Also watched your videos, damn that 3rd Movement of Op 27. I thought your digital was going to split in two! Was so fast couldn't even see your fingers, just your hand jumping from octave to octave all that from years of hanon?







Anyway, Should I tell the teacher to skip the ballade first and start with the easier pieces or do I let him choose freely from my list? Or jumping straight into the ballade with only three grade 7 or less piece(s) in current repertoire on hand?

[indianajo]

Exercises teach finger control and wrist and arm tricks that you can't get as quickly by concentrating on pieces with melodies and art.  And nothing else will build finger 4 and 5 control and strength (but Scott Joplin) 
My teacher allowed me to get by with 10 minutes of exercises a day.  I think I would have gotten bored and frustrated with more. But in 4 or 5 years I got up to czerny school of velocity.  University courses go a lot faster, and that is one reason I haven't applied to a University music school.  I like a lot of ear candy with my beets (exercises). 
The people that say Hanon is rubbish, 1000 posters saying that on the internet doesn't make something correct.  I did Edna Mae Berman exercises instead, but that is a cultural difference, not a goal difference.  Hanon is public domain and cheaper. Without a teacher the Hanon and Czerny order as published is not as progressive as you will get from a teacher's assigned order.
The finger lift thing was not part of my training, but I did get my training 55 years ago.  Scientists know a lot more about the body now than they did then. 
I think you should follow the course as lined out by your teacher.  The nervousness, being there will help you get over that. That is part of paying a teacher.  I play piano out at charity dinners for that reason, to get over the nervousness in public that causes mistakes. 

[bernadette60614]

What are your goals?

I've had 4 teachers since I resumed piano about 5 years ago:

Teacher one:  community music group adult class.  I was the only one who practiced. So, I was the star and she urged me to take private lessons.

Teacher two:  Graduate of the Moscow Conservatory of Music who quickly took me from Rondo Alla Turca to Beethoven Sonatas and a Schubert Impromtu, all the while telling me that I had great hands and sightreading, but getting pretty angry when I couldn't get clarity and good tone.

Teacher three:  I switched to since I was virtually on the point of vomiting before my Teacher 2 lessons and our son wanted to take lessons, so I joined him with this teacher. She thought I was wonderful...of course, she taught 3 to 12 year olds all day.

Teacher four: Listened to me play, asked me my goals, and told me that I needed to go backward to go forward:  my hand position does not produce a full tone, my fingers are "flat" when they should be "en pointe" and my tempi is uneven.  I went from Beethoven sontas and Schubert Impromtus to the simplest of the Mozart sonatas, Bach Little Preludes and scales.

Upon reflection, I was basically pedaling through technical weaknesses and creating music which was something of a facsimile of complex pieces.  I could impress the heck out of an amateur, kindly disposed audience, but I knew (since I'm lucky enough to live in a major metro city and have been to 20 years of solo piano concerts with the likes of Brendel and Axe) that I was really just making impressive noises, not good music.

I think you just have to ask yourself what you want to achieve and how you want to achieve it.  I don't love practicing the way I used to...it is hard, hard, concentrated work. But, I can hear that I'm moving forward with building a technique which will one day...maybe 5 years!....allow me to play Schubert the way Schubert should be played.

[dcstudio]

@dcstudio - wow, so he really sees that much in me? Still having a hard time to believe it since I've been only play slow pieces and no pieces that are grade 8 yet. I also expected the ballade to be the last piece that we will tackle, so I was really surprised that he wanted me to prepare for it right away.



Your insight dcstudio is really invaluable, Now I'm inclined to fully commit to my teacher's advice. Problem is, I initially disliked hanon, so when he demonstrated the first 3 exercises(with the fingers high motion) I didn't pay attention. So should it be played legato with fingers raised real high then gradually increasing the tempo while with the fingers still raised high?

Also watched your videos, damn that 3rd Movement of Op 27. I thought your digital was going to split in two! Was so fast couldn't even see your fingers, just your hand jumping from octave to octave all that from years of hanon?

yes he thinks you have potential and he sees a way to get you there.  For the adult not-so-beginner if you play with any steadiness of tempo and musicality at all you are light years ahead of the norm.  So many play these horrendous awful clanky versions of their "dream piece" and you know from the first 5 seconds that...  well that the odds are pretty slim. It's worse if the adult has been hanging around over-flattering non-musical people who have told him he is "amazing" but have no frame of reference when it comes to piano.  That kind is not likely to last long.   Then... one will walk in your studio and play and suddenly you're hearing music--it may be rusty in places--but it's MUSIC!  and you rejoice.   What you described sounds like the reaction I have when I hear MUSIC from a potential student.

as far as hanon... there are many ways each ex should be played.  He has only given you one so far there will be more soon.

Thanks


and yes.. all that from Czerny and Hanon and an exercise routine I learned at university.  Also OCD practicing sometimes 12 hours a day.   Not to mention I have been doing this for 47 years--that's an incredibly long time to study an instrument.   You find a member who crusades against technical exercises and has chops like mine... and I will listen.  Best of luck.

[brogers70]

@brogers - but he wanted me to lift one finger high while the other 4 fingers are pressing the keys, Isn't that harmful? But yeah, I assume I'm just doing those for exercises only, So what.

As long as you are not a lunatic about it (ie force things, as though the goal were to change your anatomy), lifting one finger while the other four are in contact with the keys won't hurt you. Everything in moderation. If you don't understand why he's giving you the exercises, just ask. There are several reasons why the fingers are hard to operate independently of one another. The obvious one is that 3 and 4 share a tendon. Your teacher is probably not fool enough to think that you can change that. But the other reason is neurological; your brain often activates multiple muscles in a group, even muscles on the opposite side of the body, just because it has not learned to activate them separately. This is particularly true when muscles are already tense. So the exercise he suggests may be perfectly reasonable for you.

You're a serious adult beginner who's progressed far by dint of enthusiasm and effort. You may have plenty of bad habits, tension, inability to separate control of fingers, wrists, forearms, shoulder, etc, that are keeping you from more rapid progress and a more beautiful sound. Doing a regime of plenty of exercises with a teacher who can show you how to work on those problems may be exactly what's called for. At least it's worth following his directions for a while to see if things improve.

[pianocat3]

Don't forget if some projects are too hard for you, the teacher will give you easier material next time or not expect you to get it up to tempo, etc. And what is easy, well the difficulty will be able immediately ratcheted up. It's a long term effort.

[reiyza]

@indianajo - Yes, there are a lot of posts here that stated that hanon is counter productive, so I built myself to believe that hanon was a total waste of time, even in fundamentals on piano practice, chang strongly disagreed with hanon and stated that technique should be acquired through the piece you are learning.
Regarding the progressiveness of czerny and hanon, It's both useless without the proper guidance of a teacher? And regarding nervousness, Maybe I'm just adjusting to the environment, after all, I've been a closet pianist ever since I was little. Don't have the courage to perform like you do, I envy you.



@bernadette - yes, I also feel the same way regarding making impressive noises, I cheated some of my pieces by pedaling, so when I remove it, the passage that I'm playing doesn't sound legato. I have yet to see a professional pianist in my area. But I have been watching piano competitions and I think "Damn, I won't be able to play like that, Not even in a million years".

My goals? (please suggest more or correct me if this is impossible to attain)
Broad:
-To succeed my grandfather's legacy as a classical pianist.
-If I get lucky, enroll at a conservatory of music(which has damn high requirements).
Specific:
-To develop sightreading, pedaling mechanics, proper application of expression and rhythm/eveness.
-Still want to play that ballade no 1 badly(don't care how long it takes)



@dcstudio - yes I'm getting what you're saying, I forcefully learned pathetique and rondo alla turca on my own, so, yup it's sounds very clanky/rubbish, and dynamics/expression/rhythm are indiscernible, don't know what my teacher saw when I played these two, I'll do a recording and upload it here so I can get your opinion also(I feel like my teacher lied to me when he said I have potential because I don't see it)
-For the exercises, Done no. 1, tried it with alternating HS @ 60-70mm. It was very brain numbing, after 20 mins of hanon It felt like I was about to fall asleep.
-I'll see what I can find regarding anti hanon, but you practicing for 12 hours.? Is that for real? I couldn't even last for 7 hours(with 5 mins break every 20 mins).



@brogers - I practiced it today, lifting fingers high felt like banging on the keys. And yes, I believe 3 hanon exercises is enough for me, any more of that and I think i'll fall asleep.!

Thank you for saying that, I'm really serious about this, sometimes I wish I can neglect my job and study the piano full time if that were possible since I also need the money(ironic isn't it?). Yes I'll see what my teacher can do for me, since my 1st session was my assessment and he just assigned me exercises thereafter, the real evaluation begins at my 2nd session.



@pianocat - I gave the teacher the list, since I don't know how to arrange their difficulty myself, I'll leave the piece choosing to him and go with it.






@Everyone, I started to review my czerny as my teacher said. I got up to number 35 in 3 hours. I'm using it as sight reading material. But my teacher told me to study it properly and don't just go through them. Does he mean I have to memorize the czerny 10-45.?(what a slave driver)

[dcstudio]

-To succeed my grandfather's legacy as a classical pianist.
(I feel like my teacher lied to me when he said I have potential because I don't see it)



, but you practicing for 12 hours.? Is that for real? I couldn't even last for 7 hours(with 5 mins break every 20 mins).

I have put the above two statements together because that is the reason you do not see your own potential.    That is such a hard thing to live up to--the family legacy...  I have met so many like you.   I once knew a man whose father had been a very, very, famous pianist.   This man though did not play and neither did any of his children.   The famous pianist had died and left no one to carry on his legacy--not a single one of his descendants played the piano.  That's one of the saddest stories I have ever heard as this pianist had an enormous "influence" --for lack of a better term--on my own playing. 

it is absolutely imperative that you un-hang all this hang-up you are putting around learning the piano...  you must do it for you and not your grandfather.   That idea of the "great family pianist" will not die quietly in your mind either.   You must find a way around it or it is really going to have the potential to hold you back.  There is a part of your mind that fully believes without question that you will never play like your grandfather... so accept that and learn to play like you.   For God's sake this is hard enough don't add more burden then it already is.


and yes... 12 hours a day.   Just ask my husband and my daughter...    I will admit that kind of schedule is impossible for me to maintain for more than a few weeks tops.  I am a bit OCD...when it takes over 12 hours at the piano is no problem.    I take breaks here and there... I watch TV or read while I play, too sometimes.

[feddera]

I agree with basically everytning dcstudio is saying here. I too was a late starter (started at 19), and this forum really shaped my approach to practising the first few years. I can very much relate to being a relative beginner, and being extremely convinced by the writings of Bernhard and Chang. Bernhard in particular is a very good writer, and is very good at arguing his case.

But are they right? I would say they have many useful ideas, especially when it comes to tackling troublesome passages in music, and that one should read and think about everything they wrote. However, on the issue of whether or not everything when it comes to technique is mental/just finding the right movements, I believe they are simply wrong. There are very real physical elements to technique. Fingers become more flexible, muscles in the hand gets stronger, etc.

In my own case, using only their methods initially boosted my skill-level extremely rapidly. Within two years of starting from scratch, I could for instance play the finale from the first Beethoven sonata. However, soon after that my progress just stopped. I continued to play and practise, using all of their advice, but it was as if my technical development had hit a brick wall. Of course I did get better over the years, but progress was so slow that it totally destroyed my motivation. It lead to long breaks from the piano, sometimes lasting several months, one time almost a year.

What finally got me back on the improving track, was to do the excact opposite of what Bernhard was advocating. In short that meant: doing hanon, scales and arpeggios, but also doing pure flexibility/strength exercises for the hands. Long story short, this newfound improvement got my motivation back full force, and last year I applied (and got in!) at a conservatoire at age 27, 8 years after I started.

Furthermore, I'd like to point out, that the loudest supporters of the Berhard/Chang-school of thought, usually are the ones with no recordings of their own playing. I'm sure Bernhard can play, but it does make you wonder...
Basically you have access to, what seems to me, a teacher with years of experience, who has a very detailed plan for your progress. Should you dump him because his ideas doesn't conform to those of an anonymous guy on an internet forum? My answer would be a big NO!

[bernadette60614]

There are a couple of books I'm working through now, which are shaping my attitude towards practice/piano:

Practicing for Perfection

The Practice Principle

The first is a fairly heavy duty analysis of the practice habits of pianists from amateurs, through proficient amateurs through professionals.

The second is a more general book by a pianist about the process of practice, as it applies not only to piano but to learning any complex skill.

The most relevant to this discussion take away, IMO, is this:

Yes, your goal should always be in mind, but if you measure every practice occasion against your big goal, it will be one, long, painful discouraging slog. 

I think that is what I, as a voracious consumer of music tend to do and it is self-sabotaging.  Kissin grew up in a household with a music teacher mother, a sister who was 10 years old and a piano student, had a professional musical education and his piano teacher lived with his family.  Unless I can find a magic time machine, I will never sound like Kissin (I'm going to bet that there are professional concert artists who will never be able to sound like Kissin.)

So, my new attitude:  Enjoy the process.  Deliberate practice is hard work, just as deliberate study, deliberate physical training for a sport is hard work. To achieve that good performance in anything is a process. So, I am consciously focusing on enjoying the process...and I think the performance will come as an outcome of enjoying and not mindfully assessing (but not critically judging) my practice.

Just my thought, which may or may not apply to this discussion.

[outin]

Some people have good hands to play the piano from the start. Just like some people have good posture by nature. They cannot understand why someone would need to build anything. But when you are not blessed with good physique you need to work on it. There are many ways to do it and what works for me does not necessarily work for someone else. I cannot change the fact that my hand is too narrow, my thumb is the wrong shape and my fingers are double-jointed, but I can work on my ability to control all the various muscle groups.

With my teacher's help I understood what it means to have active and "strong" fingers and what that means for the ability to play technically difficult works. I choose to build technique mostly with repertoire and only use an occasional exercise to tackle a specific problem, but for someone with more patience than I have, exercises may be a quicker way.

[dcstudio]

Bernhard and Chang. Bernhard in particular is a very good writer, and is very good at arguing his case.

But are they right?  I believe they are simply wrong. What finally got me back on the improving track, was to do the excact opposite of what Bernhard was advocating

my problem with both these men is that neither of them can say--this is what it did for me.  Anyone who has the cajones to publish a book on learning to play the piano would also have the cajones to plaster samples of his playing everywhere if he in fact had any chops to speak of. .  Some people go to great lengths to convince others of their fantasy piano prowess... some talk a great game but in the end you will never hear them play... they always have an excuse.  They seem to seek the respect and adulation that comes with being a great musician...without actually being a great musician.    I am not saying that factual information in these books isn't well researched and nicely presented--although Chang is a bit condescending--just that neither has taught a lesson.   Neither has any life experience as a musician...  and we are a different breed altogether.  There are common hang-ups, pitfalls, and tricks, that you really only master by performing regularly.  
 the title of the book really should be--"this is all the reasons why I can't play--but let me tell you how to play."   Psyche 101 says over-compensation big-time for childhood failure at the piano.

[mjames]

i get your skepticism sure but um, arent you being equally condescending? Lol

[brogers70]

I agree with basically everytning dcstudio is saying here. I too was a late starter (started at 19), and this forum really shaped my approach to practising the first few years. I can very much relate to being a relative beginner, and being extremely convinced by the writings of Bernhard and Chang. Bernhard in particular is a very good writer, and is very good at arguing his case.

But are they right? I would say they have many useful ideas, especially when it comes to tackling troublesome passages in music, and that one should read and think about everything they wrote. However, on the issue of whether or not everything when it comes to technique is mental/just finding the right movements, I believe they are simply wrong. There are very real physical elements to technique. Fingers become more flexible, muscles in the hand gets stronger, etc.

In my own case, using only their methods initially boosted my skill-level extremely rapidly. Within two years of starting from scratch, I could for instance play the finale from the first Beethoven sonata. However, soon after that my progress just stopped. I continued to play and practise, using all of their advice, but it was as if my technical development had hit a brick wall. Of course I did get better over the years, but progress was so slow that it totally destroyed my motivation. It lead to long breaks from the piano, sometimes lasting several months, one time almost a year.

I had a similar experience with Chang and Bernhard, though I'm an older amateur and definitely not bound for a conservatory. I had been learning on my own for years, as an adult beginner, and was completely stuck, looking for simple Haydn slow movements I could work through. I read Chang and all the sudden made big progress, no longer afraid of speed, got up to playing a bunch of Schubert Impromptus, Mozart Sonatas, etc. But then I hit another wall. I'd never had a teacher who taught technique (as opposed to saying "You've got some mistakes in that bit there, work on it some more.") When I finally got a teacher who made me go back to the very beginning, arm drops, slow scales, relaxation, Cramer (my substitute for Czerny), Berens exercises for the left hand,  etc. then I started to improve again. There are lots of good ideas in Chang and Bernhard, but you have to pick and choose and get advice from a good teacher, too.

[anamnesis]

I had a similar experience with Chang and Bernhard, though I'm an older amateur and definitely not bound for a conservatory. I had been learning on my own for years, as an adult beginner, and was completely stuck, looking for simple Haydn slow movements I could work through. I read Chang and all the sudden made big progress, no longer afraid of speed, got up to playing a bunch of Schubert Impromptus, Mozart Sonatas, etc. But then I hit another wall. I'd never had a teacher who taught technique (as opposed to saying "You've got some mistakes in that bit there, work on it some more.") When I finally got a teacher who made me go back to the very beginning, arm drops, slow scales, relaxation, Cramer (my substitute for Czerny), Berens exercises for the left hand,  etc. then I started to improve again. There are lots of good ideas in Chang and Bernhard, but you have to pick and choose and get advice from a good teacher, too.

The problem with Bernhard and Chang, is that you actually have to go back to some of therer"source" material to really understand and use some of their ideas even more effectively, and understand their context.

For example, both of their writings are heavily influenced by Abby Whiteside, and they both admit to not fully understanding her writings. 

Despite how confusing the book appear initially, I've learned far more from slogging through it, using her methods (and the methods of her successors), and reconciling her work with more traditional approaches then I have from any other resource or teacher. 

[reiyza]

To everyone,  I have started to practice my hanon exercises and reviewed my czerny. My teacher is not answering my calls!
-How the world should I do my hanon, am i to practice it the whole day? That and there's reviewing czerny.
-What the heck does my teacher mean by "Review your czerny". Does he mean to memorize each etude or to use it as sight reading material up to ex. No 45.

I'm sorry for such late replies, I am having problems in accessing my desktop, and typing in my phone is quite a tedious task. But I have been diligently reading your replies. Sorry and thank you everyone for the patience.

@dcstudio - yes about my grandthater, it's quite a heavy burden that I bear, since I  was young and ignorant at the time, and was unable to succeed him. But I feel that the pressure is increasing when I started returning to my czerny recently(since he was the one who taught me it). I envy him for being such a good sight reader. 
-regarding your discussion about bernhard and chang, yes, I don't believe i have seen posts them claiming that they have used their methods and improved. Almost all of their posts are advices and the results from their advices come from the forum members that have read it, and as far as I can share, I believe bernard also was a student of hanon, I don't know about chang, but I'm almost sure that bernhard has good technique.


@brogers - yes I have found their advices extremeley helpful, it helped through the first few bars of the E minor, and C# minor part of the etude 25 no 5. But as I slowly worked through the piece, I feel my progress has been slowing down. That's the time that I said, "How will I able to play piece(s) that I want if this is how I progress, I got to find a way to improve my playing altogether" and then I got a teacher the following days. I feel like I'm prioritizing the piano over my current job.(is that normal or am I completely addicted?)


@bernadette - I always set short term goals using bernhard's advice. Yes when I think about my long term goals, I end up tearing up because I feel like I won't be able to reach it.
-I'll try the books you suggested as reference, who's the author(s)?


@feddera - wow! You've started at 19 years old and got into a conservatory?
-yes, I find bernhard's posts so good to be true, It made me believe that any piece no matter how hard could be conquered by anyone by self studying with his methods(unfortunately, i think it's not true).


@outin - yes it's true, I have tried performing octave tremolos with fingers 234 touching the keys(relaxed), and guess what, fatigue build up was a lot faster. There are so many youtube posts that states "you should keep 234, close to the keys while performing tremolos", but I don't think they mentioned "This is what works for me and may differ for what works for you."


@anamnesis - yes I've googled abby whiteside, and apparently there are similarities with his/her methods with chang and bernhard regarding the fingers have their own strength and using the upper arms/wrist/forearms as the tools for playing effieciently.
-There are so many posts by bernhard it would take like a 1-2 days of reading to scan and digest all of it. So i used the most efficient way of learning the piano and got a teacher to waste no time.

[brogers70]

You shouldn't spend hours doing Hanon and Czerny, just minutes. I am not sure, but I think this is what happened. Your teacher saw a lot of enthusiasm, a good understanding of music, commitment to work, and some facility. He may also have seen a lot of tension, sub-optimal technique, and a less than beautiful sound. He may be trying to get you to revise your technique, almost from the beginning. In that case, let him show you exactly how to do the exercises, then every day do them just as he asks, and then stop. If he is trying to revise your technique, then 20 minutes a day of practicing a few simple things exactly correctly, without stress or tension is what you need. The important thing is to give your body and brain a period of time in which you only play with the most relaxed and correct technique possible, and do not re-inforce bad habits by working on difficult pieces for hours. If, this is really what your teacher is up to, then go with it. It's frustrating to practice so little when you are in love with music and the piano, and it seems crazy that practicing less for a while will lead to more progress than practicing a lot, but it's worth it. And after a few weeks you'll be able to gradually ramp up your practice time.

I'm just guessing here, and I may be reading your posts in light of my own experience. In my case I got an excellent teacher, after years of working very hard on my own. She completely revised my technique and once that was done I made much faster progress. But at the beginning of the revision, all I did was 20 minutes a day of arm drops, two note slurs and very slow scales. It took about 3 months to get to the point where I could go back to the 3-4 hours a day that I had been doing before.

And I totally sympathize with you on piano versus work. I loved my job (before I retired), but in every free moment at work, I was thinking about what I was going to practice when I got home.

[irrational]

Hi again.

Again to assuage your fears.
When I started my teacher also started with basic Hanon for a few weeks. Also with raising fingers.
In fact she still sometimes tells me to play that way and tells me why. Both to strengthen fingers and develop an evenness.
The Hanon I sometimes feel I want to play to loosen my fingers or concentrate on something, but she has never again touched it after that first month or 2.

I think your teacher knows what he is doing. Trust him. As for time spent. Hanon not all that much. I never played Hanon for more than about 30 minutes and that was only at the start. Play 2 exercises about 5 minutes each I think. But importantly take care how you play it!
Its not just to rush through. Like scales make sure you are even up and down, especially on the upper turn.

Just relax about your teacher, really. Focus on what you are playing and every lesson he will assess what you did and work further. Remember this is a process of years, not weeks. Take it easy, but practice diligently.

The "review" I would say merely means practice it a little.
I would think that your main goal now should be smoothness and evenness, so that there are no sounds that jump out when you play. Also take into account the rhythm. Keep it simple. Your teacher will tell you waht to do and if you aren't sure. Ask him in the lesson.

[anamnesis]

@anamnesis - yes I've googled abby whiteside, and apparently there are similarities with his/her methods with chang and bernhard regarding the fingers have their own strength and using the upper arms/wrist/forearms as the tools for playing effieciently.
-There are so many posts by bernhard it would take like a 1-2 days of reading to scan and digest all of it. So i used the most efficient way of learning the piano and got a teacher to waste no time.

There are similarities because they got them from her.  I didn't say not to get a teacher because its good to get all perspectives; however, I will say that there are things in her book that you will find almost nowhere else.  There's also many misconceptions floating around online from those who haven't actually taken the time to go through the work. 

For example the fundamental misunderstanding about the book and how people apply it, is that they don't realize it is about the other side of piano technique that is completely ignored by all but the gifted:


The activity between the production of tones.


Until you make a visceral connection with this, the book will completely elude the reader.  Our natural inclination and training almost focuses on the activity of articulation, and most people who try to interpret the book can't seem to get their mind around the importance of being able to distinguish the two and communicating it.  They almost always relate it back to articulation without fully experiencing the activity tones and how it is used to space tones. 

A masterful control of technique understands how the activity of articulation is captured inside the activity between tones, and NOT the other way around. 

For example take trills and tremolos. When they are captured inside the rhythm of the upper arm, they become very easy and self-sustaining like a pendulum after a single impulse.  All the finger training in the world will never replace being able to do inside of this rhythm.  The only training needed is enough that the fingers participate and enhance this rhythm and do not disturb it. 

[reiyza]

To everyone. I have attached recordings(below) of warmed up(don't bother asking for cold started ones, they totally suck) version of the pieces I played during my first meeting with my teacher. As all of you may have known already, I'm not really good, and my rhythm and everything sucks so please be merciful in evaluating them. (the pieces recorded are much cleaner than when I played at the teacher's house since my fingers aren't trembling at home)

@brogers - Why choose a bulk of czerny exercises? The hanon I understand, But the almost 35 etudes of czerny in just a week? I can finish all the assignment just by sight reading 10-45 but it takes me 2 hours just to go through them. Did your teacher gave you assignments similar to mine? Did he want you to perfect each assignment?
-Yes I had to drop the piece(s) that I am currently learning in order to accommodate the assignments. I don't regret it though, now that I have a teacher, I'll have him teach me the correct way to tackle pieces(as he said he would).

@Irrational - yes I believe my teacher said that when he gave me hanon claiming "all fingers should have equal strength when playing so the sound wouldn't be uneven"
-I think I get your point in practicing it a little, does plowing through exercises 10-45 in 2 hours qualify as reviewing?

@anamnesis - this book looks promising. Though I haven't got the time to read since I'm working full time and studying piano outside of that. Was that an actual paragraph from the book? I have read it and you're right, It's really hard to absorb. What's the title of the book? I'll put in the list of future references.




EDIT :
@dcstudio - here they are., please send me a PM regarding your evaluation of my playing from these three piece(s), to see if you'll have the same opinion as my teacher. Note, these are much better than the ones my teacher heard.


All recordings done at Clavinova 430r(yeah its cheap, don't get me started on that, and yes, record sound sucks)




Please do enjoy criticizing my piece(s) attached.

[dcstudio]

i get your skepticism sure but um, arent you being equally condescending? Lol

touche!

[dcstudio]

you have a lot of potential!!  I understand your teacher's enthusiasm completely.  His ears, like mine, have been listening to students play for decades.  Our ears are sensitive and we listen for very specific things.  There is music to your playing.. forget that you picked 3 of the most commonly attempted "return to piano" pieces played by adult students.    LOL 

yes my friend you are a bit rusty but that does not matter---you are teachable and your goals are reachable. 

very rarely do these pieces sound this nice when played by your  average returning pianist.

trust me on that one.   you are going to be good!

[anamnesis]

@anamnesis - this book looks promising. Though I haven't got the time to read since I'm working full time and studying piano outside of that. Was that an actual paragraph from the book? I have read it and you're right, It's really hard to absorb. What's the title of the book? I'll put in the list of future references.

It was just a summary of some key points from the book that I think missed that are critical to understanding the work.  I mainly mention the book because there are many aspects of both Bernhard and Chang's methods that are just watered-down or their attempted translations of her work. 

It's actually two books collected under one volume: Abby Whiteside on Piano Playing has her book Indispensables of Piano Playing and a collection of essays edited by her students called Mastering the Chopin Etudes and Other Essays. 

The bad and good thing about the book is that it is is impossible to absorb in one sitting, and sometimes you are better off just reading bits of random pieces until it all comes together. 

My own humble suggestion is to ask your teacher for basic conducting lessons as well and not just the piano if you want a glimpse of what is contained in the book without slogging through it.  The moment you fully experience the physical connection between both piano playing and conducting will be a revelation.

[brogers70]

@brogers - Why choose a bulk of czerny exercises? The hanon I understand, But the almost 35 etudes of czerny in just a week? I can finish all the assignment just by sight reading 10-45 but it takes me 2 hours just to go through them. Did your teacher gave you assignments similar to mine? Did he want you to perfect each assignment?
-Yes I had to drop the piece(s) that I am currently learning in order to accommodate the assignments. I don't regret it though, now that I have a teacher, I'll have him teach me the correct way to tackle pieces(as he said he would).

35 Czerny exercises in a week seems crazy to me; but is that what he really wanted? Did he think you already knew them and would just have to brush up? Maybe there are conservatory bound kids who can benefit from Czerny just by sight reading through him an huge chunks, but it does sound odd.

With my teacher I went through a few months of practicing relatively little, just doing very simple things, arm drops, two-note slurs, slow scales, some very, very simple Haydn. This was true even though I had been playing fairly advanced repertoire when I started with her. Then we did some Bach two-part inventions, still focusing on sound quality and relaxed movements, maybe one Czerny a week (until I got fed up with him and switched to Cramer, technically similar but musically more interesting). She discouraged me from going back to pieces I had played before, at least for the first 6 months, because it would be easy to fall back in to bad habits. Eventually, we got to a routine in which I am working on some Berens left hand exercises, a Chopin Etude (this is a couple of years since I started with her), a classical sonata. a WTC prelude and fugue, and a romantic period piece. And her whole approach is that technique is about being able to produce the sound you want to produce, without struggle or tension, not about speed, although speed has been improving almost as a side effect.

Your recordings sound good, plenty of potential. I'd say that the Pathetique sounds a bit angular, very rhythmically accurate, but maybe not as much flow and shaping of the lines as you'll want eventually. It's easy to see why your teacher is enthused about you. Working with an adult who loves music, who is willing to put in the time and effort, and who already has plenty of facility must be enjoyable. The other thing I'd say is relax, you have decades in which to work on this stuff.

[keypeg]

In regards to Chang and Bernhard
my problem with both these men is that neither of them can say--this is what it did for me.  Anyone who has the cajones to publish a book on learning to play the piano would also have the cajones to plaster samples of his playing everywhere if he in fact had any chops to speak of. .  ....   Neither has any life experience as a musician...  

You cannot put these two people into a same sentence.  Chang is a father who observed a good teacher guide his daughters, and tried to put what he observed into laymen's language.  Bernhard is an experienced senior teacher, perhaps even retired, who tried to put his lifetime experience out there for others to use.  This was a daunting task, because what you do and draw on as a unit, has to be dismantled and taught in parts, when presenting it in writing.

I would not choose a teacher based on how well he or she can play, but on how well that person can teach.  This gets even trickier with adults, and especially tricky with adults who have some kind of background.

I was fortunate enough to have some private conversations with Bernhard some years ago.  He is an experienced teacher.

[keypeg]

About the actual matter.

Exercises by themselves, such as Hanon or Czerny, don't say anything.  It depends on why they are assigned, why they are assigned, how they are taught, and then how the student practices them according to how they are taught (assuming this "how" is correct), and to a point what the student does with that.

The first thing to look at is the fact that some teachers will assign things "because that is how my teacher taught me" and in a blind belief that "this series of etudes builds skills" as though the etudes were some kind of magic pill and all students are generic.  Then you have the teacher who sees particular weaknesses, and knows that certain etudes address those weaknesses.  This teacher seems to be doing that, which is a plus.  The mere fact of a teacher observing his student, rather than putting all students on a conveyor belt, is a plus.

Now you have such things is lifting one finger while keeping all the other fingers down.  These kinds of things can be taught because the teacher has used this, found that it works, is aware of the dangers and will be vigilant about them, the guide as needed.  But they can also be taught because this is how the teacher was taught, he was lucky enough not to be injured by them, and he is teaching them in blind faith which fuels his belief that they will work, and do what he thinks they will do.

Teaching adults is still a rare thing that teachers are not that familiar with, and teaching motivated dedicated adults who will work hard over the long haul is even less familiar.  The danger for a dedicated etc. adult is that when there is misteaching, that degree of diligence can create quite a bit of harm - or quite a bit of success.  I have experienced both, for those reasons.  The rule of thumb is: if it hurts, stop.  If it just an ordinary ache from unfamiliar movement, as your body gets used to it, then it is probably ok, but don't overdo it.

[anamnesis]

You cannot put these two people into a same sentence.  Chang is a father who observed a good teacher guide his daughters, and tried to put what he observed into laymen's language.  Bernhard is an experienced senior teacher, perhaps even retired, who tried to put his lifetime experience out there for others to use.  This was a daunting task, because what you do and draw on as a unit, has to be dismantled and taught in parts, when presenting it in writing.

I would not choose a teacher based on how well he or she can play, but on how well that person can teach.  This gets even trickier with adults, and especially tricky with adults who have some kind of background.

I was fortunate enough to have some private conversations with Bernhard some years ago.  He is an experienced teacher.

I think most people have an issue with Bernhard's stance on exercises, but they seem to not have realized or forget the critical fact that he had a VAST knowledge and awareness of the early pedagogical literature that he more than amply used for his students as a replacement.  

It's not a simply matter of "not doing" something only, but what you replace it with.  

Moreover, he taught everything pragmatically in context.  There's no reason you can't get to the same technical standard using his methods, if you actually followed his method as a whole rather than just "picking and choosing", which ones.  

Concerning his stance on high finger practice.  He teaches forearm rotation to lift the fingers, which in combination with the alternating action of the hand/forearm is all that is necessary for timing key stroke articulation and release.  The key will come up if is not held down.  It might help students become aware of the release of the key, but the release of the key itself doesn't require high fingers.  It simply requires the cessation of action at the finger joint closest to the key.  




 

[dcstudio]

You cannot put these two people into a same sentence.  Chang is a father who observed a good teacher guide his daughters, and tried to put what he observed into laymen's language.  Bernhard is an experienced senior teacher, perhaps even retired, who tried to put his lifetime experience out there for others to use.  This was a daunting task, because what you do and draw on as a unit, has to be dismantled and taught in parts, when presenting it in writing.

I would not choose a teacher based on how well he or she can play, but on how well that person can teach.  This gets even trickier with adults, and especially tricky with adults who have some kind of background.

I was fortunate enough to have some private conversations with Bernhard some years ago.  He is an experienced teacher.

I stand corrected about Bernhard... my apologies.  I had him confused with someone else and posted rather irresponsibly about that.   I have never read his posts so I cannot comment but my friend keypeg has set me straight about his experience.

she is absolutely right--I cannot put these two in the same sentence.

[keypeg]

I stand corrected about Bernhard... my apologies.  I had him confused with someone else ...

You have no idea how often I do that.   

[dcstudio]

You have no idea how often I do that.   

we are both far too young to have "senior moments"  LOL

[keypeg]

we are both far too young to have "senior moments"  LOL

I was thinking more along the lines of "artistic temperament".   

[dcstudio]

I was thinking more along the lines of "artistic temperament".   

yeah that's way better... lol.

[quantum]

@lotal - yes, that was also my initial reaction, be he said he could help me improve, he gave me hanon exercise 1 to 3 to begin with. I plan to study hanon with fingers very cloes to the keys and hope he doesn't notice, I'll practice it at full speed right away, since it's simple exercises like schmitt.

But I think he's aiming at the strength of the 4th and 5th finger, its a pity that he knows that the 4th an 5th are essentially using the same tendonds but he still advocated lifting them individually high during practice.

Learning isn't just about adding on knowledge - learning requires rethinking and revising.  As you progress through your piano lessons, you may discover some concepts that challenge the manner in which you think about or play the instrument - and that's a good thing.  Don't get rigidly set in the way you currently play because it is familiar, feels comfortable and seems to work.  Always be on the lookout for different ways of doing the same thing: you never know it might just turn out preferable to the way you currently do things.  It can be sometimes be discouraging when you are presented with a concept that is alien, and can be overwhelming to think of going about a familiar task in a whole new way.  You don't have to like it, or incorporate it into your technique, but don't discount it without even trying it out.  Give it some time and trust your teacher.

Lifting fingers works, and can train a student into good mechanics and out of bad habits.  Just realize this is not the end-game, it is only part of a package of tools that will be revealed to you as you journey through learning.  Your teacher has presented the technique to you because he thinks this will help you in your current situation - trust your teacher.  Sometimes studying with a new teacher is perplexing because you don't yet have a big picture of what their approach is all about.  

[reiyza]

To those who listened to the recordings and threw up, Thank you for persevering. 



@dcstudio - wow, I did not realize that those 3 pieces were common, the fur elise has been engraved to me by my grandfather, it's my most memorable piece. The pathetique and rondo, 2 pieces 1 forcefully learned from the 2nd week of january. Thank you for the evaluation, I'm usually a closet pianist but you've boosted my confidence a little bit. 

Yes and I've changed my goal from "succeeding my grandfather" to "I want to play all piece(s) that I listed reasonably well in the future". I think it's a much better goal and succeeding my grandfather will be just a bonus of my hardwork.



@anamnesis - wow there's a book regarding chopin? Now that piqued my interest gotta have both of those books, I'm sure it'll be supplemental as fundamentals of piano practice. And yes about it being good and bad, Well I think, I'm too lazy to read an entire book, I just get essential things that I can profit from. 

And about conducting, I can't even identify the time signatures at the start of the piece. I totally suck bigtime. So maybe conducting would be out of the deal.



@brogers - No, I don't think he expects me to know them, after all, he said "review up to what you can reach and I'll choose 5 etudes from that". But he did say review 10-45.
I'm still thinking about what he meant by review, sight read and play each etude fluently? Or sight read and expect to have mistakes? Or memorize the whole 35 etudes? Damn. If that's the case,  I'm wasting my time sight reading the book!

About your teacher, he made you do all of that? What happened to your previously learned advanced pieces? Did you forget them and relearn them with the help of your teacher?  How are they now? I envy you for having such a great teacher. Don't you hit speed walls(I assume not, because you have a great teacher).

Thank you for the evaluation, about pathetique, I really don't know how to voice out the cantabile effect. So I wish i played it at a constant piano or pianissimo. Though my dynamics and rhythm really jumbles up most of the time.



@keypeg - yes,  I am curious on what bernhard's students sounds like, I believe his teachings are as effective as any good teacher, though It's hard to really grasp the concept of his teachings through paragraphs posted in this forum. And what's worse, he's been inactive for a long, long time.

Yes, I'm aware of the methods he discussed with me, though I have been using hanon for an hour(with 5 min breaks) using his fingers lifted high method for 3 days, so far, nothing hurts. My wrists and forearm just tenses up after a prolonged time of playing and then bam! wrong notes.!

Very invaluable insight on teachers keypeg, I'll see what my teacher is like on the 2nd session. I wish he's the good type but by the looks of his expression, It feels like he's really looking forward to working with me to achieve my goals.



@quantum - Yes, your advice was noted, thank you. Yes at first I was a bit shocked that he suggested me hanon(since I was the anti hanon type at the time), though I have been using it for a few days and noticed slight improvement in my technique, still it's something to look forward to in the future. I'll just take whatever my teacher throws at me, As long as it helps me improve and get rid of my bad habit(stuttering). If something weird comes up, I'll always have the members of this forum to help me.



This is a late reply, typing in a phone sucks. And I'm sorry if my responses are too shallow, I have yet to explore what you guys experienced throughout your journeys with the piano.

[bernadette60614]

May I ask:

Did you tell your teacher your goal of entering a conservatory?

I described my history with teachers in my first response. And, with each of those teachers I did not come in with a clearly articulate goal.  I was just another adult student. I think each of my teachers chose to direct me as they directed the majority of their adult students...to play well enough that piano would continue to be a hobby.

With my current teacher, I came in with the goal of reaching an conservatory audition level of proficiency.  That change everything:  I'm doing scales (in fact, lots of scales), doing pieces I could have speed played within 2 weeks...and now working on them for 4 months to achieve absolute articulation, improved hand position, and musicality.  It is painstaking, and sometimes painful work.  I estimate it will take me 5 years of practicing 2 hours a day to be somewhat within the realm of okay.

Just a thought for your consideration.

[brogers70]

To those who listened to the recordings and threw up, Thank you for persevering. 

@brogers - No, I don't think he expects me to know them, after all, he said "review up to what you can reach and I'll choose 5 etudes from that". But he did say review 10-45.
I'm still thinking about what he meant by review, sight read and play each etude fluently? Or sight read and expect to have mistakes? Or memorize the whole 35 etudes? Damn. If that's the case,  I'm wasting my time sight reading the book!

About your teacher, he made you do all of that? What happened to your previously learned advanced pieces? Did you forget them and relearn them with the help of your teacher?  How are they now? I envy you for having such a great teacher. Don't you hit speed walls(I assume not, because you have a great teacher).

Thank you for the evaluation, about pathetique, I really don't know how to voice out the cantabile effect. So I wish i played it at a constant piano or pianissimo. Though my dynamics and rhythm really jumbles up most of the time.

Don't beat yourself up about your recordings. There's lots of potential and you obviously love the music. Your teacher sees it, too, I think. Just clarify what he meant about Czerny (and switch to Cramer, if he'll go for it; technically similar to Czerny but much more interesting musically.)

As for my teacher, yes, she made me do all that. The very basic stuff was fun, in a way. I just stopped thinking about music that I wanted to play and started thinking about how different bits of my body felt as I made movements in the simple exercises. If you watch someone like Garrick Ohlsen or Daniel Barenboim play it's amazing how little force they seem to exert, how supple and relaxed their hands are. So I sent the months we were just doing very simple things focusing on how to minimize any unneeded effort and tension. You just have to trust that it will pay off when you get back to the music you want to play, and it does.

For the advanced pieces I had played before I've only gone back to a few of them, and that after more than a year. They felt tremendously easier. For example I had learned the Eb major Prelude from Book I of Well Tempered Clavier, and the prelude itself is a fairly complex double fugue. When I learned it before it felt very tense and difficult. After having my technique rebuilt from the bottom up, it was much more relaxed, much easier to bring out the various voices and articulations. There's a late Haydn Sonata in C major, #51, that I'd learned before, too. I loved it, but I was too tense trying to hit the notes to communicate the humor in it. After I came back to it it was so much easier.

I don't hit speed walls, I think because my teacher never focuses on speed. Once I can play a piece with the right motions, producing a good sound, then speeding it up comes quite easily. I think speed walls come from gradually increasing the speed step by step. I don't do that, I just work on the piece until it feels comfortable and then speed up all at once [but, I can do that because my teacher has shown me motions to use that are capable of being played at tempo]. And there are limits, of course. I'm not rattling off the Chopin Etudes at the given metronome markings, not by a long shot.

One way to work on the Pathetique might be first to sing the tune, as you wish it would be sung, with all the swells, dynamic changes and articulations that you think should be there, then to play only the melody and try to make just the melody sound as you want it. Once you have that embedded in your brain, then go back and add the accompaniment and bass line trying to keep the melody singing as you had it when you played it alone. It sounds like you love music and are totally dedicated, so I'm sure you'll do well.

[anamnesis]

@anamnesis - wow there's a book regarding chopin? Now that piqued my interest gotta have both of those books, I'm sure it'll be supplemental as fundamentals of piano practice. And yes about it being good and bad, Well I think, I'm too lazy to read an entire book, I just get essential things that I can profit from.

The book on the Chopin Etudes is particularly useful because her students edited it, so it is a bit more readable; however, both books are essential to understand her work.  It's one of those things where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. It's really a comprehensive work, and almost have to completely buy into her approach for all the individual parts to really work at their best.  

There have been so many times where I initially disagreed, and then later come to agree with her conclusions or thought I "discovered" an improvement upon her principles, but then later find was in her writings that I did not understand at the time or ignored thinking it was unimportant.  

There was a user (Herve) here who posted a long while back that can provide some insight into the book.  He only made 25 posts so it's not too long of a read:  https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=2100;sa=showPosts

And about conducting, I can't even identify the time signatures at the start of the piece. I totally suck bigtime. So maybe conducting would be out of the deal.

There's very few things that will improve your rhythmic awareness and immersion in music than conducting.  I'm not actually talking about the real conducting of some kind of ensemble, but self conducting.  Sight-singing and self-conducting are actually very basic music skills that get ignored in the US in the basic training of most early aspiring musicians when it's actually needed the most. We then suddenly have to re-mediate students at the university/conservatory level, which is utterly ridiculous. For some reason, it's only saved until someone starts on the trek to becoming a professional, which I utter disagree with.  

------------

I really don't know how to voice out the cantabile effect. So I wish i played it at a constant piano or pianissimo. Though my dynamics and rhythm really jumbles up most of the time.

The cantabile in this piece is best brought out only after you have a masterful control of the background ostinato.  The background needs to be treated just like the trills/tremolo I mentioned earlier.  There's a rhythm in the upper arm that balances on the keys almost like a tight rope, and it should feel self-sustaining like a pendulum.  The dynamic level of the background should be controlled by this rhythm.  

The important notes in the melody are than coordinated to that rhythm without ever disturbing it if you want to be able to consistently bring it out.  It's only after you've mastered the background rhythm, can you make the melody interact with it and make it sing.  

There are actually two excerpts from the book that are related to this:

"The thing to remember is that the performer must have physical actions which weave these related tones into one strand. There must be a continuous action which lasts as long as the musical form which is being performed. Then, and only then, can the details of musical speech be made to enhance, and not clutter, the production of musical form. The strand must be sufficiently strong emotionally, so that it won't be broken by the accumulation of details which are part of its beauty but not the strong thread of progression. For example: Play a waltz with the emotional response primarily attached to the melodic line, and there will be no waltz which will captivate the audience. A waltz is a dance first of all. Play the fundamental basses with the lilt and grace one sees and feels when watching a great dancer or skater, and the melody will be more beautiful and graceful, and the delight of the audience will be instant in its response."

----------------------

"The performer's emotional attachment to the physical actions he uses for performance can give him great satisfaction  and still be all wrong for projecting a musical idea. For example, a waltz will not have its dancing lilt if the performer is not as involved with his left hand as he is with the right. The Gibet of Ravel also illustrates trates this point. This is a gruesome picture of a dead man swinging from a gallows. The piece will be totally ineffective if the performer is involved emotionally only with the melody line; but, if the insistent repeated notes are played as inevitably as doom itself, then an emotional picture can be projected which makes a tremendous impact. pact. The melody is not less effective because of this insistence of the repeated tones; quite the reverse, it becomes increasingly poignant."

[dcstudio]

"The performer's emotional attachment to the physical actions he uses for performance can give him great satisfaction  and still be all wrong for projecting a musical idea.

lol... so true.

[louispodesta]

So, I've started a new thread, since I got a teacher this february.

This is my story/background (skip if too long):
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=60513.msg649326#msg649326

My teacher is a 40y/o former conductor at a university.

I've assessed myself as an adult beginner, and then played a sonata from beethoven and mozart from the post above while trembling like hell, then the teacher told me that I'm no beginner but an advanced player(which I don't believe). But due to my poor sight reading skills and rhythm and uneveness of fingers he gave me this two following books.

Hanon "the virtuoso pianist in 60 exercises"
Danhauser Solfege de Solfeges - for my rhythm.

and told me to review my czerny 599 from exercise 10-45, before i start tackling my list of pieces I want.

The List(this is long, sorry) -
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=60704.msg651100#msg651100


This is what I'm afraid of, as stated by members of this forum czerny and hanon has little of use in technique development, he also emphasized playing with fingers raised high.

But he told me my goals are attainable, but will take many years, and to my surprise, He took ballade in G minor as a first piece to start after the above exercises, I barely even finished Etude 25 no 5!
(Is my teacher psychotic?)

Should I drop him and continue my self studies? Or should I continue to study with him?

Everyone's opinion is welcome and also trollbuster.

This is a first, and in that I will give you an option.  You can distillate all of the advice you have been given before, or you can contact me and consider the epistemology that you currently experience with your current "former conductor," who gets paid!

Except and specific to me, if you decide to contact me by PM, I offer the same consulting contract that I always have.  And, that is: after I have advised you, if you deem me of no consequence, then you do not owe me any money.

This is not a solicitation. Your talent is substantial, and you can accordingly be given a common sense path to substantial piano technique.

[dcstudio]

This is a first, and in that I will give you an option.  You can distillate all of the advice you have been given before, or you can contact me and consider the epistemology that you currently experience with your current "former conductor," who gets paid!

Except and specific to me, if you decide to contact me by PM, I offer the same consulting contract that I always have.  And, that is: after I have advised you, if you deem me of no consequence, then you do not owe me any money.

This is not a solicitation. Your talent is substantial, and you can accordingly be given a common sense path to substantial piano technique.

what are you charging for exactly, Louis? just curious.