Gender Egalitarianism

[josh93248]

I want to start a very controversial thread hahaha.

But really, let's talk about something I've been thinking about lately.

I used to consider myself something of a feminist but I can no longer use the term anymore to describe myself. I now consider myself a gender egalitarian.

There are so many dimensions to the can of worms I'm opening but let's start with a simple one.

Why are women offended or at least miffed when I refuse to embrace the mere word feminism? Obviously not all women are but I sometimes feel resentment when I make my position known. It feels to me like the whole gender equation is out of balance on both sides and many steps need to be taken to rectify a host of issues. Feminism just isn't the right word or even the right movement for it anymore, we need true cooperation and negotiation across the gender divide to solve these problems.

Why is it so hard to accept that I feel that even though women's issues are serious and probably more significant (especially in third world countries) that it's best to address men's problems alongside them? Shouldn't we treat solving gender issues with a balanced approach? Even with problems more associated with one gender or the other we can still address things such as sexual abuse as being just as important if they happen to a man as if they happen to a woman.

Surely, if the more extreme feminists are right and I have no idea of my privilege then it is simple enough to deal with my meagre complaints whilst tackling all the things women have to deal with. So why not do it just to get men onside?

A more contentious point I would make is that the genders will never truly be equal in all respects but perhaps that is just inevitable because we ARE different. Perhaps society needs to respect the things both people do rather than just trying to make women more like men and vice versa. For example, women tend to gravitate more towards jobs in Education and Aged care, and those jobs get lousy pay, perhaps there could be more respect for the value of those jobs and maybe a push for better pay? I'd be very supportive of that, so long as I felt respected as well.

[gep]

I am not at all a feminst whatsoever. I merely think women are, like men, human beings who are all fundamentally equals and need be judged only on how they behave in relation to other human beings, be they man, woman or anything in between. Moreover, I think that women are, just like men, very well capable of regulating their own lives, and should be considerd as such, or at least so do I. I fear at least some 'feminists' are merely hampering women by pushing them (or trying to with some force) in the 'eternal victim' mode of whimpering, which they do not need.

Btw, if feminism is good for women, masculinism is good for men? (By another way, if "Black is Beautiful", then "White is beautiful" too?).


all best,
gep

[josh93248]

I am not at all a feminst whatsoever. I merely think women are, like men, human beings who are all fundamentally equals and need be judged only on how they behave in relation to other human beings, be they man, woman or anything in between. Moreover, I think that women are, just like men, very well capable of regulating their own lives, and should be considerd as such, or at least so do I. I fear at least some 'feminists' are merely hampering women by pushing them (or trying to with some force) in the 'eternal victim' mode of whimpering, which they do not need.

Btw, if feminism is good for women, masculinism is good for men? (By another way, if "Black is Beautiful", then "White is beautiful" too?).


all best,
gep

An interesting perspective, thanks gep.

I have often wondered how someone would react if I said I'm a masculinist (which I'm not really) and acted as though being "masculinist" meant being the only truly advocate for "correcting gender imbalances" and all other ways should be shunned/ignored.

[themeandvariation]

Hey Gep,
You betray a lack of understanding for a gender biased culture… Women who had to fight to even get the right to vote… 19th amendment..1920….
Are you for equal pay?
Feminism Is about equal rights.. (come out of the cave, man.)

[josh93248]

Hey Gep,
You betray a lack of understanding for a gender biased culture… Women who had to fight to even get the right to vote… 19th amendment..1920….
Are you for equal pay?
Feminism Is about equal rights.. (come out of the cave, man.)

Is it always about equal rights? If it was why do so many feminists spend so much time attacking men with no real point to it? Is it really productive? Why, in the 1st world, has arguing about the finer points of gender politics in relation to cultural consumption eclipsed the need to defend women in 3rd world countries? If it is really about equality then why do so many feminists deny that men have issues worth addressing like suicide rates or work related injuries.

I'm not saying there aren't any good feminists out there or that feminism hasn't accomplished good things but it's only a word. A word with a lot of baggage connected to a movement with a lot of negative elements. I feel like the position one takes in relation to a mere word can make way too many enemies... not to mention some disturbing allies...

And what gep said seemed pretty reasonable to me, can you explain your issues with what he said in more detail?

[gep]

Hey Gep,
You betray a lack of understanding for a gender biased culture… Women who had to fight to even get the right to vote… 19th amendment..1920….
Are you for equal pay?
Feminism Is about equal rights.. (come out of the cave, man.)

No, I fear you lack an understanding of what I wrote. The fight for the right to vote for women is a humanitarian fight, just as the fight of poor men was for the right to vote. I no way in anything I want to judge someone based on such non-relevant issues as gender, colour, shape, age, sexuality, origin, etc etc.

Feminism is about equal right to the same extend as socialism is about equality. In the hands of some, yes. In the hands of its more vocal proponents, well, look at the average socialist country.

Equal pay? Only for those who do equal work in an equal way in an equal time.

The idea that I live in a cage because I’m a man is rather, oh dear, sexist?

All best,
Gep

PS: 19th Amandment? I’ll look it up, not being from the USA…

[themeandvariation]

Hi Josh,
You mention.
"If it was why do so many feminists spend so much time attacking men with no real point to it?"
Do they?  Not the feminists I know.

You mention:
"Why, in the 1st world, has arguing about the finer points of gender politics in relation to cultural consumption eclipsed the need to defend women in 3rd world countries?"
Has 'it'  been eclipsed by arguing 'finer points'?
Of course, it becomes a more complex dynamic to discuss this in relation to the cultures of the developing (3rd world) countries.  
Have you read any history, or theory, regarding this subject, like  for instance, "The Chalice and the Blade" … Riane Eisler  ?  

[themeandvariation]

@Gep,
'Cave'  ,,.. No, not cuz you're a man… But because you equate as an corollary masculinism with feminism… a reduction absurdum..
perhaps you are from one of these countries:

European countries such as Finland (1906), Norway (1913), and Denmark and Iceland (1915) granted women the vote early in the 20th century. Other continental powers were quick to accord women the right to vote at the end of World War I. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the Netherlands granted suffrage in 1917; Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, and Sweden in 1918; and Germany and Luxembourg in 1919. Spain extended the ballot to women in 1931, but France waited until 1944 and Belgium, Italy, Romania, and Yugoslavia until 1946. Switzerland finally gave women the vote in 1971, and women remained disenfranchised in Liechtenstein until 1984.

In Canada women won the vote in Alberta, Manitoba, and Saskatchewan in 1916; after federal suffrage was achieved in 1918, the other provinces followed suit, the last being Quebec in 1940. Among the Latin American countries, national women's suffrage was granted in 1929 in Ecuador, 1932 in Brazil, 1939 in El Salvador, 1942 in the Dominican Republic, 1945 in Guatemala, and 1946 in Argentina. In India during the period of British rule, women were enfranchised on the same terms as men under the Government of India Act of 1935; following independence, the Indian Constitution, adopted in 1949 and inaugurated in 1950, established adult suffrage. In the Philippines women received the vote in 1937, in Japan in 1945, in China in 1947, and in Indonesia in 1955. In African countries men and women have generally received the vote at the same time, as in Liberia (1947), Uganda (1958), and Nigeria (1960). In many Middle Eastern countries universal suffrage was acquired after World War II. In some countries, such as Saudi Arabia, there is no suffrage at all, and in others, such as Kuwait, it is very limited and excludes women completely.

[josh93248]

Hi Josh,
You mention.
"If it was why do so many feminists spend so much time attacking men with no real point to it?"
Do they?  Not the feminists I know.

You mention:
"Why, in the 1st world, has arguing about the finer points of gender politics in relation to cultural consumption eclipsed the need to defend women in 3rd world countries?"
Has 'it'  been eclipsed by arguing 'finer points'?
Of course, it becomes a more complex dynamic to discuss this in relation to the cultures of the developing (3rd world) countries.  
Have you read any history, or theory, regarding this subject, like  for instance, "The Chalice and the Blade" … Riane Eisler  ?  

Well then you know some good feminists, which is great. I've known ones that are not.

I honestly don't think it's very important to argue endlessly about the depiction of women in media (especially when it is probably just as worthwhile to talk about how men are depicted in media) when people are being raped or sold into marriage that is completely inappropriate etc.

I don't know what the best ways to deal with third world problems are but I'll hold that the problems in such countries are far more important than quibbling about who is portrayed how in fictional worlds.

I have not really taken an interest in such literature, I've skimmed things, listened to feminists and their opponents and found merit on both sides. I find it more interesting to look at the current conflicts, especially on YouTube and such where the battles are being fought rather than older academics and their works, even if they have some good ideas. One cannot read everything.

[themeandvariation]

Josh,
I agree somewhat with your media argument… How many women directors or even producers in relation to men might be a provocative  question…
I get the attraction to viewing the 'current  battles' on Youtube, yet there may be better avenues for receiving  such info…
Marija Gimbutas is another.

[themeandvariation]

Gep,
You say
"The fight for the right to vote for women is a humanitarian fight"
I would agree.. and in a Patriarchic model that has been in place for eons, can you not see the necessity for claiming rights for all - easily relates to feminist theory..