Longest piece ever (Organ2)

[presto agitato]

ASLAP means "as slow as possible." Born in Los Angeles in 1912, Mr. Cage believed random tones or ambient noise could be music. One of his best known pieces,"4'33", is performed by a musician sitting silently at a piano for four minutes and 33 seconds. Now, in the forlorn eastern German city of Halberstadt, in a crumbling medieval church used as a pig sty until a few years ago, Metzger and a group of supporters have started a performance of "Organ2" so slow that it is supposed to continue for six centuries. It began on September 5, 2001, but fans of John Cage haven't missed much since it begins with a rest, or silence. For the first 17 months there was nothing to hear except the wheezing of the organ's bellows. In fact at that time that was the only part of the organ that existed — it is being assembled as the concert goes on. There are plans to turn a building next to the church into a contemporary music center named the John Cage Academy. Each movement lasts 71 years, the shortest notes last 6 or 7 months, the longest about 35 years. There's an intermission in 2319. Since Mr. Cage put no limits on how many of the movements can be repeated, the concert could conceivably last longer than 639 years. "It's really limited by how long the organ holds up, if worms eat into the wood, or the lead pipes begin to decompose." They would like to link the concert to museums around the world. "There could be a room where people could hear a tone from Halberstadt. It would be like an eternal flame."

 

[willcowskitz]

Retarded.

I guess Mr. Cage realized he had created nothing that would make him immortal, so starting a 600 year long performance would guarantee that his name would forcefully reach people's ears in the future as well.

[xvimbi]

"It's really limited by how long the organ holds up, if worms eat into the wood, or the lead pipes begin to decompose." They would like to link the concert to museums around the world. "There could be a room where people could hear a tone from Halberstadt. It would be like an eternal flame."

That shouldn't be a problem at all. Just wait for an eighteenth rest, and you've got 50 years to replace the broken parts. You also have to replace the performer every now and then, and the audience. One can only hope there won't be an encore.

[dlu]

Retarded.

I guess Mr. Cage realized he had created nothing that would make him immortal, so starting a 600 year long performance would guarantee that his name would forcefully reach people's ears in the future as well.

Retarded? You do realize that most of Cage's "music" wasn't really meant to be music at all, right? He was a philosopher. Read some of his essays/lectures. What do you think he meant by this piece? It might seem retarded, well because IT IS, but that is not what Cage was trying to say. Am I making sense? His music (I am speaking just about stuff like this, not actual music like the prepared piano stuff) was meant to be like performance art, in a way...kinda...mabye? You can correct me here...but this is what I personally see in Cage's work...

[dlu]

Just another question: Are you sure that Cage meant the piece to last this long? Or was is someone else who saw the piece of music marked "ASLAP" and thought that: "hey...as slow as possible eh?...this piece could last 700 years if i wanted it to." Yes, I might be wrong again....

[willcowskitz]

Retarded? You do realize that most of Cage's "music" wasn't really meant to be music at all, right? He was a philosopher. Read some of his essays/lectures. What do you think he meant by this piece? It might seem retarded, well because IT IS, but that is not what Cage was trying to say. Am I making sense? His music (I am speaking just about stuff like this, not actual music like the prepared piano stuff) was meant to be like performance art, in a way...kinda...mabye? You can correct me here...but this is what I personally see in Cage's work...

I have heard some bearable music from John Cage, I do understand that he is (or should be noted as) more of a philosopher than a musician/composer. However, crap like "4,33" should never reach the stage of concretization, as it's only value (to me at least) lies in the idea that music is born from silence. There's no need for demonstration unless your audience consists of morons, and besides I think the title "composer" along with performances of carries people away from the actual thoughts behind his "compositions". Nietzsche did compose 74 works and sketches, without becoming a phenomenon in that area, simply because at that time it required more from a person to gain recognition in arts or science, which is not the setting in today's world. I would guess his compositions were reflecting his philosophical thoughts, but his lack of skills, routine and orientation kept him from ever articulating them into beautiful pieces of music that would gain fame. I only brought this in to show that success in one area of arts or science doesn't automatically justify recognition in other areas. Many of the great names that history knows have tried expanding their skills and credibility onto other activities besides the one that  they were primarily known from, but not many succeeded at this; though to bring in a counter-example, there's Leonardo da Vinci.

However, I noted your last point and agree that maybe I was too quick to judge. If Cage didn't intend this work to last for 600 years, the title of retard goes to whoever did.

[dlu]

I have heard some bearable music from John Cage, I do understand that he is (or should be noted as) more of a philosopher than a musician/composer. However, crap like "4,33" should never reach the stage of concretization, as it's only value (to me at least) lies in the idea that music is born from silence. There's no need for demonstration unless your audience consists of morons, and besides I think the title "composer" along with performances of carries people away from the actual thoughts behind his "compositions". Nietzsche did compose 74 works and sketches, without becoming a phenomenon in that area, simply because at that time it required more from a person to gain recognition in arts or science, which is not the setting in today's world. I would guess his compositions were reflecting his philosophical thoughts, but his lack of skills, routine and orientation kept him from ever articulating them into beautiful pieces of music that would gain fame. I only brought this in to show that success in one area of arts or science doesn't automatically justify recognition in other areas. Many of the great names that history knows have tried expanding their skills and credibility onto other activities besides the one that  they were primarily known from, but not many succeeded at this; though to bring in a counter-example, there's Leonardo da Vinci.

However, I noted your last point and agree that maybe I was too quick to judge. If Cage didn't intend this work to last for 600 years, the title of retard goes to whoever did.

Agreed.

Just for fun have a look here for some "unusual" scores. Alot of these pieces are similar to that of some of John Cages. Have a look at the first one and especially Yoko Ono's  (who's work I really respect...not so much this work though). Some of these are VERY interesting. Some simple...some VERY complex. Comments?
Remember: this is just for fun...
DLu

[dlu]

Agreed.

Just for fun have a look here for some "unusual" scores. Alot of these pieces are similar to that of some of John Cages. Have a look at the first one and especially Yoko Ono's  (who's work I really respect...not so much this work though). Some of these are VERY interesting. Some simple...some VERY complex. Comments?
Remember: this is just for fun...
DLu

crap...forgot to post the link. Here it is:
https://homepage1.nifty.com/iberia/score_gallery.htm

[willcowskitz]

https://homepage1.nifty.com/iberia/score_gallery.htm

Wow, those are interesting, although I'm sure most of them should never be produced in form of sound. I especially liked Kupkovic and Schäfer.

[ahmedito]

For God's sake! Cage is one of the geniuses of the 20th century. I think music can be defined as "before Cage" and "after Cage". Some of his more traditional works are incredible, and this kind of stuff is original and great. Cage taught composers to LIGHTEN UP! and stop being snobs.... and more importantly, he taught most modern composers out there that music is in the ear of the listener, and that everything can be music. Nothing better illustrates this than 4`33"... please, you can not agree with his ideas but just calling him retarded, or thinking that he did these things because he wouldnt be remembered for any other reason is just plain ignorance speaking. Even without his writings he would be remembered for his works for percussion ensambles or prepared piano which are some of the most important things in the 20th century repertoire; not to mention that almost all of the greates composers after him were heavily influenced by him. His ideas were of such a revolutionary nature that I believe that to dare to call him retarded, backwards and to speak of him in such a derogatory manner is akin to doing the same about Beethoven or Debussy.

[ahmedito]

The fact that they are actually playing organ2 is a tribute to a great man. But of course, he would be the first to laugh at the terrible absurdity of it all.

[Daniel_piano]

That's the problem with many avant-garde and modernist music: it's more than a philosophy than amusic
When I used to go to avant-music concerts I was always attracted by the written presentations and theories behind the piece
There was a lot of beautiful and interesting philosophy in what the composer wrote as the "rationale" behind the piece
So I was full od expectations but when the I finally heard the piece is was usually very bad, there were nothing unique or original in it, there were no dynamics or musicality
It was usually a random set of noises and notes that sound like all the other hundreds of pieces I've heard before
Yet, the philosophy behind the piece was concrete and interesting
The same with Stackhusean
I hate anything about his music and his conceptiom of music, but his theories and his philosophy is really interesting

That's not a specific problem of music but specific to all arts on the avant-garde era, poetry, sculpture and painting
The works are usually ridicoloous, banal, puerile or even unwatcheable but their presentation and the philosophy behind them is always interesting
In think all this "artists" would obtain far more and would reach their goal sooner if their would start just writing their philosophies and theories without any banal music , banal paiting or banal sculpture behind

They're philosopher, noeither musician, nor compoers, nor painters nor sculptors
This is so evident to true artists that there are hudreds of artistic movements in the world nowadays for the reinessance of "concrete" art where skill is important and being able to write a book on philosophy is less important
The best movement with the best talents and original ideas so far is "the New Hope"

Daniel

[willcowskitz]

For God's sake! Cage is one of the geniuses of the 20th century. I think music can be defined as "before Cage" and "after Cage". Some of his more traditional works are incredible, and this kind of stuff is original and great.

By what standards is it "great"? Originality can become an obsession for some in the sense that it no longer serves any other purpose besides being different for the sake of it. Playing one note for a life time of man serves no musical purpose, so why did this "philosophy" have to be turned into music? This music cannot even be enjoyed, its only to create monotonous vibrations to exist in some closed spaces.

Cage taught composers to LIGHTEN UP! and stop being snobs.... and more importantly, he taught most modern composers out there that music is in the ear of the listener, and that everything can be music. Nothing better illustrates this than 4`33"... please, you can not agree with his ideas but just calling him retarded, or thinking that he did these things because he wouldnt be remembered for any other reason is just plain ignorance speaking.

His attitude towards music or art forms in general might be an admirable thing in the sense of liberating people's views from the old conceptions of what art is, but the actual fruit of this is mostly seen in spawning of pseudoartists, rather than real artistic revolution. Ever since postmodernism introduced the idea that anything can be art, people have adopted this thought model only to aid in their uncertainty towards their own creations - self-criticism has vanished, nobody practices healthy doubt, and every irrational collasion of random items can be presented as "art", no matter how little actual intuition, innovation or idea of some abstract meaning was involved in creation of the work. Art no longer is balsam for the soul, it has become a toilet for people's random unfounded thoughts and feelings, and the pipes lead to modern art museums and galleries and other popular neo-art scenes.

Even without his writings he would be remembered for his works for percussion ensambles or prepared piano which are some of the most important things in the 20th century repertoire; not to mention that almost all of the greates composers after him were heavily influenced by him.

Sorry, but that is laughable. Rachmaninoff died in 1943, Prokofiev in 1953, Sibelius in 1957 - only to bring in a few personal favourites. Personally, I would rank about any piece from these composers over anything that John Cage created in terms of importance in musical sense. Other than being heavily depressed for most of his life, Rachmaninoff was probably not very philosophical in cosmic matters, but his music is by far more beautiful than anything that John Cage created. Before you ask, I haven't heard all of Cage's repertoire (same goes for Rachmaninoff), but I have heard one piece for prepared piano and the album In a Landscape, besides other miscellanous stuff. Prepared piano was interesting percussively, but failed to stimulate me musically. Innovative technical expansion of limits of instruments, not-so-innovative use of it. I don't know about the influence part, so I'll just take what you say as the truth, for I have no reason to oppose every suggestion that Cage was an important asset for the world of music/art. That is most probably true, no matter how pointless I think his musical concretizations are.

His ideas were of such a revolutionary nature that I believe that to dare to call him retarded, backwards and to speak of him in such a derogatory manner is akin to doing the same about Beethoven or Debussy.

I never said Cage was backwards, though I still think whoever's decision to actualize 600 years long performance was retarded. Again, if speaking of music, I value those two composers mentioned far above Mr. Cage.

[dlu]

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000JMYM/qid=1104433282/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-1876475-7940953

Read some of the reviews here...they are interesting...and you can listen to sound samples as well.

Also, what do you think of Phillip Glass...?

DLu

[willcowskitz]

A lot of Philip Glass' appeals to me; for example Aguas da Amazonia (with Uakti), 1000 Airplanes on the Roof, Koyaanisqatsi, Dracula, Anima Mundi... His music contains exciting atmospheres and moods, though sometimes is guilty of making unnecessary noise out of it. He also often uses the same developmental lines for his compositions, consisting of taking an octave and hitting 2 notes in between, then playing all the keys from down to up and back making rhythm dividable to 3 or 6. However I don't see this as a nuisance, just something exposive of his compositional technique which is understanbable when one acknowledges he's also a proficient pianist.

[puma]

Better hope none of them hits a wrong note!  Then they'll have to wait around for a while.  I wonder who's going to keep up the droning?  You'd have to dedicate yourself to playing just one or two notes for quite a while.

[Etude]

I wonder who's going to keep up the droning?  You'd have to dedicate yourself to playing just one or two notes for quite a while.

Actually, lead weights will hold the keys down once they have been played.  Notes will be added and removed over time.  The only other info I can give is this:

The piece, Organ²/ASLSP is an organ arrangement of the piano piece, ASLSP.  The time length of this piece is indefinite, and performances have ranged from 5 minutes to 25 minutes of length.  AFAIK, the Organ²/ASLSP was played in a 25 minute performance following a speech made by the organiser, after which the 639 year-long performance began.

Here are a few links:

https://www.john-cage.halberstadt.de/new/index.php?l=e

This is the main site for the project.  You can see a timeline of the piece from 2000 - 2004 under the notes and tones section, and a bit more of the music at the top of the page, but it's very faint and the notation is virtually incomprehensible.

https://www.npr.org/programs/pt/features/2003/sep/aslsp.html

You can hear the opening of the performance in a link on this site, and some of the orginal piano version, plus some discussions of the performance.