Getting pieces up to tempo?

[recnepspencer]

I started learning transcendental Etude no. 2 about a month ago, and I have it memorize and can play through it nearly perfectly. The problem, getting it up to tempo. I have had this struggle with server all pieces. I asked my piano teacher, and she gave me a poor answer. She said, that is the tempo Liszt gave it. You play it at the tempo you can play it. So how to i increase my tempo to that of Liszt's? Is there a specific technique to playing fast? Or do I just need to practice it 50 million times until I get it

[trollbuster]

BULLSH!T

[adodd81802]

HAHAH

Got to love trollbuster.

I'm not going to respond directly here but just state what I do. Use a metronome. Simple as that. Incremental increases to ensure I am increasing the speed. If I hit a roadblock at any time, I isolate that part and find out how I could change it to make it work at that speed, whether it's changing fingering, the shape of my hand, etc etc.

Note this mostly works practicing from 50-75% speed upwards, any less and I think you're not going to see the benefits as you're going so slow, the movements and technique required for that speed wouldn't be anything like the full speed.

at least at 50% you've got a rough idea of what's required and 75% is pretty much proper playing but needing more practice.

Maybe i'm wrong.

[mjames]

how are you able to play all of that and not know how to do such a basic thing?? ??

[recnepspencer]

Good question lol. I played piano, hating it, from 2-5th grade when I was little, then I quit. Then one day I found a song I liked and wanted to learn (op 111) so I put in a lot of practice and became an advanced level, but my piano teacher is better for beginners so she hasn't really helped me with tempo. I did play those, but they were a bit slower than they should be.

[adodd81802]

Good question lol. I played piano, hating it, from 2-5th grade when I was little, then I quit. Then one day I found a song I liked and wanted to learn (op 111) so I put in a lot of practice and became an advanced level, but my piano teacher is better for beginners so she hasn't really helped me with tempo. I did play those, but they were a bit slower than they should be.

Then surely you haven't learnt them?

[recnepspencer]

I did, but the fast ones were probably only 75% speed

[trollbuster]

but my piano teacher is better for beginners so she hasn't really helped me with tempo. I did play those, but they were a bit slower than they should be.

it reeks in here from all the bullsh!t     you are still trying to convince people you play? give it up you can't even lie correctly.

she's better for beginners so she hasn't help you with the tempo?    so you are saying that teaching tempo is something only an advanced teacher does?   you are learning Liszt from a teacher for beginners... who cannot or will not help you with the tempo.  Maybe she is better with cords  LOL

ahhhhh I get it--this is the teacher that told you that you were at an advanced level LOL makes perfect sense.  since you are so advanced maybe it's time you hired a teacher who specializes  in TEMPO   I hear they are really expensive.

[kawai_cs]

I think you should move on to another teacher if your current teacher does not give you enough guidance. You can certainly look for a good teacher who gives online lessons if you don't find anybody in your area.
I would say speed is a skill that has to be learned. Like with sight-reading, I can read pieces of advice how to faster sight-read but I am still not able to sight-read faster immediately. I have to practice it and gradually it gets better. So is it with speed. Advice to play faster and more effective includes using energy very effectively, keeping fingers close to the keyboard (not waisting energy  raising fingers), not going to the very bottom of the keys,being able to relax during fast play, using the maximum of hand weight and the minimum of muscles, and so on.

[briansaddleback]

Or do I just need to practice it 50 million times until I get it

I may not say it as trollbuster frankly put it, but let me just say , if you are really at the level you are at to merit being able to study and practice (and say 'learned' ) certain advanced repertoire pieces, then you should certainly be able to analyze and figure out on your own (Yes, a teacher can provide proper guidance, but not hand-holding -> this only applies to beginners and less experienced music students) what is preventing you from increasing in speed.

You can play it a million times and yes, perhaps in 60 years you can play it blazingly, but even after a trillion times, the way you learned the piece will just be further engrained. Meaning, whatever corners you cut and whatever compromises you took to garner the speed through certain measure switches will just be more a permanent part of you.

I can quickly learn the arpeggio set of winterstorm etude and flub throgh it, just keep practicing it over and over again a few thousand times, and  iwil be able to perfrom it at terrific speed, all w flubs and mush quality.

You have to dissect and get down to granular level each movement that causes you hindrance , analyze it, and work your technique through solving it. work that about a couple hundred times (that is all you need) slowly and then try increasing speed.

But this is basic advice known by all advanced students. Arent you that?

[pencilart3]

To get a piece up to full tempo you just play it faster.

[recnepspencer]

Thank you kawai, for the polite response. And for you other guys, I play at an advanced level, but I just jumped into it. So while I have most of the skills, I lack some one the basic ones that are important such as reformed practice, playing fast, stuff like that.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Thank you kawai, for the polite response. And for you other guys, I play at an advanced level, but I just jumped into it. So while I have most of the skills, I lack some one the basic ones that are important such as reformed practice, playing fast, stuff like that.

Reformed practice and playing fast aren't skills.

Reformed practice is just good discipline and playing fast is easy come easy go.

Don't worry about playing fast.  The only thing you should be worrying about is making it sound the best you can while playing it at a tempo you're comfortable with.  And no it doesn't have to be as fast as how Liszt played it or the tempo Liszt marked.  Just because someone does something doesn't mean you have to copy them.  I'm playing a rach moment musical and the tempo is something crazy like 112 bpm and there's no way I'm playing it that fast.  It's not that I can't, it's just that it's so fast that it sounds bad.  You can't even hear the notes!  Your teacher didn't give you a poor answer.  She's right.  Speed is easy come easy go.  It'll get faster eventually.  Speed for the sake of speed is no good.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

And stop saying that you're an advanced pianist.  In the history of this forum, and my experiences in all other aspects of life, people who go out of their way to say that they're good or 'advanced' at something saying that have 'most of the skills' usually aren't.  Don't be so arrogant.

[briansaddleback]

Thank you kawai, for the polite response. And for you other guys, I play at an advanced level, but I just jumped into it. So while I have most of the skills, I lack some one the basic ones that are important such as reformed practice, playing fast, stuff like that.

You don't play at an advanced level. You attempt to play pieces that are advanced.  

A pedestrian ambitious to be a nascar driver without proper step by step training and going through all the minor circuits for years doesn't become a nascar driver by saying she can drive a car fast and head on over to the Indy 500 after getting her license permit at the dmv.
No matter how much you churn there you're just wasting time. You have to prep each step of the way properly. You don't just on a whim jump into something like that.  


Learning a myriad of note combinations in a certain sequence on an instrument ? Yeah you can just jump into that on a whim. It isn't music though. Tracing a photo of the Mona Lisa portrait w tracing paper? That isn't art.  Nothing wrong w that however, Mind you.  You can get real good at it and impress some people. But don't give yourself a label that is not merited.

[dcstudio]

to the OP-- you know we could play a drinking game with your posts---if we all took a drink each time you typed "I play at an advanced level" we would die of alcohol poisoning pretty quickly..

why do you keep repeating that...??  are you trying to convince us or yourself--it's in nearly every post.  what exactly do you mean by "an advanced level'  that is very vague.  Some of us have been doing this for decades and when people keep repeating how great they are at the piano.. or are constantly telling everyone they play at an advanced level... it always means they either don't play at all--or more commonly that they do play but they suck--and they know it. but they sure want to convince you they know how to play.. but you will never actually hear it.  Lots of that around here... self-proclaimed gurus who make grandiose claims but have zero practical experience and won't post an example in the audition room.

You don't play at an advanced level. You attempt to play pieces that are advanced.  

attempt being the operative word...

[adodd81802]

Thank you kawai, for the polite response. And for you other guys, I play at an advanced level, but I just jumped into it. So while I have most of the skills, I lack some one the basic ones that are important such as reformed practice, playing fast, stuff like that.

Simply playing advanced level pieces does not make you an advanced pianist.

The confusion that many people have, which has just been highlighted in another post is that playing 1 or even 10 high level pieces does not make you high level.

I took a grade 8 piece to my teacher, I had been working on for a couple of weeks, he sight read two pages that I had been working on, does that mean he can play pieces far harder than I can?

Not necessarily, but it does mean that as an all around pianist in its fullest terms, he's far more advanced than I am.

Furthermore, you have even said yourself half if not most of the pieces in your signature you don't even play full speed.. that's not about you needing to learn to increase speed for pieces, but simply because you are lacking the skills to play them at full speed. It's not just about how fast your fingers move.

[dcstudio]

Simply playing advanced level pieces does not make you an advanced pianist.

The confusion that many people have, which has just been highlighted in another post is that playing 1 or even 10 high level pieces does not make you high level.

I took a grade 8 piece to my teacher, I had been working on for a couple of weeks, he sight read two pages that I had been working on, does that mean he can play pieces far harder than I can?

Not necessarily, but it does mean that as an all around pianist in its fullest terms, he's far more advanced than I am.

Furthermore, you have even said yourself half if not most of the pieces in your signature you don't even play full speed.. that's not about you needing to learn to increase speed for pieces, but simply because you are lacking the skills to play them at full speed. It's not just about how fast your fingers move.

addod ... you have a completely different attitude than you did a few months back. Is that because of your new teacher?  I mean that in a great way

[kawai_cs]

I just wanted to supplement my post because I think I wrote it confusing terms. I meant to say that speed is not a skill in itself that has to be practiced but a sum of skills and those constituent skills must be practiced in order to acquire speed. I do not practice for speed because it does not bring any good results. If I can't go faster that means I have some stuff to address in my playing, e.g.. placing to much weight on fingers in a given part or something else that has to be taken care of with specific practice. Hope that makes more sense now