Hard work over God given talent?

[distantfieldrelative]

I am sick of reading that Mozart wrote his first symphonies before the age of 10 and that  Mendelssohn was writing masterpiece  octets by the age 16 and that Liszt was the greatest natural pianist ever.

I want some people who worked their ass off for what they earned Not for what was given to them.
Where are the composers who were sh*t all their life and we're just average until after working for it they were geniuses.

I'm sick of the child  prodigy bullshit.

It makes me suicidal. Perhaps then my music will be enjoyed. Lol

Anyway, are there Any composers who actually had to work hard?

That censorship is funny.

[marijn1999]

Beethoven actually comes to mind. He certainly was gifted, but not nearly as much as Mozart, for example. He didn't really think of being a composer when he was younger at first (eleven, twelve years old), but when he stopped school and all his time became devoted to music he wrote his three Piano Quartets, WoO 36. This made him seriously thinking about it and went on to write his first Piano Concerto (catalogued as his second concerto, op. 19) at age seventeen. Later, when he was around twenty years old, he left Bonn, which was his home city for Vienna. He actually planned to do this when he was seventeen already but his mother got ill so he had to go back to Bonn.

In Vienna, the really hard work began. He first took lessons with Haydn (for a short period, because they couldn't move along very well) and later with Johann Schenk. He also took lesson in music theory and counterpoint with Johann Georg Albrechtsberger, and only three years after he arrived in Vienna, did he gave his first public performance and published his first work.

Also, for every work Beethoven published, loads of sketches ended op crumpled in the bin. He really spent a lot of time studying music of Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach, Joseph Haydn and Mozart too. He developed his aural skills by training so he could realize music inside his head. Therefore, I'd classify Beethoven not as a genius per sé, but as a highly disciplined and dedicated man (which might be classified as a genius anyway  )

By the way, compare Mozart's Symphony in D major, K. 48 with Beethoven's Piano Concerto in E-flat major, WoO 4 which were written around the same age. Beethoven is SOOO much better!

BW,
Marijn

[dcstudio]

I am sick of reading that Mozart wrote his first symphonies before the age of 10 and that  Mendelssohn was writing masterpiece  octets by the age 16 and that Liszt was the greatest natural pianist ever.

I want some people who worked their ass off for what they earned Not for what was given to them.
Where are the composers who were sh*t all their life and we're just average until after working for it they were geniuses.

I'm sick of the child  prodigy bullshit.

It makes me suicidal. Perhaps then my music will be enjoyed. Lol

Anyway, are there Any composers who actually had to work hard?

That censorship is funny.

it has been asserted by many that Mozart's early talents were embellished somewhat by his own family to make him more marketable as a "child prodigy"   --just because music came easily doesn't mean he didn't work hard, though.   Mendelssohn was not much of player if I recall correctly he was one of the first composers that was not an incredible instrumentalist-- a mediocre guitar player it was said.   

All of them worked hard and most lived some kind of tortured existence... insanity, illness, addiction and just plain bad luck.

hey being suicidal about this means you have a nice strong case of musical neurosis... you are most likely destined for greatness! 

[distantfieldrelative]

Beethoven maybe.

And I would be able to believe that Mozarts ability was exaggerated.
Insanity, illness,addiction?
Triple check lol wish me an average life span.

Maybe all the good music really has already been written.
Nahh...
But I would give anything to be able to write like one of the late musical geniuses of Europe.

[brogers70]

Bach. He said: "Ich habe fleissig sein mussen; wer es gleichfalls ist, wird eben so weit kommen."  I had to be diligent. Anyone who works as hard will get just as far.

[outin]

I don't know how hard he had to work, but Scarlatti Jr. was a late bloomer as a composer. While he did compose from young age, it is believed that his best work was done when he was over 40. Which in those days was old, considering that many people died in their 30's...

[mjames]

I don't get it, what makes you think prodigies didn't work their butts off? People like to mystify these composers but bottom of the line is these guys acted the way a professional would at a very young age. I'm pretty sure Mozart didnt enjoy his upbringing as he spent most of his time practicing and performing instead of being treated like a kid. Mendelssohn didn't have tiger parents, but it was his passion for music that drew him to spend hours and hours every day practicing and studying music.

I enjoy reading about late bloomers, but that doesnt mean I have to diminish the hard work prodigies put into their craft.

[dcstudio]

actually prodigies are more likely to leave music altogether according to a study I read once.  They have a very difficult time adapting to their status once the "child" part is over.  The pressure on them to live up to their perceived potential can be overwhelming.  Those who take the long way and stick with it start peaking in their 40s and 50s.   I play better at 51 than I ever have in my life whereas many "prodigies" and non-prodigies for that matter feel their best playing years are behind them,

being a prodigy means being obsessed in most cases... they work harder than anyone--usually, how many symphonies did Haydn write... like 130+ isn't it?  that's a lot of freakin manuscript paper...lol

[coda_colossale]

Bach. He said: "Ich habe fleissig sein mussen; wer es gleichfalls ist, wird eben so weit kommen."  I had to be diligent. Anyone who works as hard will get just as far.

First thing that came to my mind as I saw the thread

I too get discouraged at times, this quote is pretty much all I need to remind myself of to have the motivation to keep going.

[distantfieldrelative]

The issue is not the diminish many of the "hard work" of prodigy children. If they spend 12 hours a day working on their music then it is only fair that they gain 12 hours worth of reward. The issue is when there are 2 year olds; who work 3 hours a day; who are better pianists that most; and whom seem to have unnatural ability; and get on the Ellen show; and play carnage hall; and get the whole *** world handed to them on a silver plater by Beethoven.

Really the issue is that after all that hard work I see them put in and after all the wonderful things I wish I could do after putting in twice as much work!!..

Nothing.
NOTHInG?!

They drop off the Earth. They disappear and it seems like I never hear of them again. Those are just the modern day prodigy who piss me off because of their wasted chance. But I know that there were many more in the past.

So really it's jealousy that is the issue.

Best.

[awesom_o]

 Mendelssohn was not much of player if I recall correctly he was one of the first composers that was not an incredible instrumentalist-

If I recall correctly, you did not recall correctly  

Obviously wikipedia is hardly the height of scholarly excellence, but it says the following:

Mendelssohn was renowned during his lifetime as a keyboard performer, both on the piano and on the organ. One of his obituarists noted:

    First and chiefest we esteem his pianoforte-playing, with its amazing elasticity of touch, rapidity, and power; next his scientific and vigorous organ playing [...] his triumphs on these instruments are fresh in public recollection.[106]

In his concerts and recitals Mendelssohn performed both his own works and those of his predecessor German composers, notably works of Weber, Beethoven and (on the organ) J.S. Bach.[107]

Both in private and public performances, Mendelssohn was also renowned for his improvisations.

[mjames]

Anyways, a favorite example of a late bloomer would be Ernest Chausson. He only started studying music seriously after he abandoned law school, which was around his early 20s. His career started to flourish around the time he died.

[jimroof]

The pianist Ruth Slenczynska https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Slenczynska comes to mind as 'prodigy' who was MADE that way by parents who forced her into relentless practice when she was but 3 years old.

I had the amazing pleasure of hearing her perform the entire set of 24 Chopin Etudes in a very intimate setting in which the audience numbered maybe 150.  She took some time to speak about her childhood and shared that she was made to practice the piano hours on end while her parents would force her into submission.  In essence, she was abused into being a pianist. 

She then shared that, because of her experiences, she refrained from using the word 'practice' with her young students, preferring to use the term 'play' - because it SHOULD be play for a child.  Her hope was to foster a love for the instrument and for music rather than live in fear of the consequences of not complying.  I can attest to this with some of my young students from years ago, one of whom is now perhaps one of the southeast U.S.'s most prominent jazz pianists, Kevin Bales.  I had him early on and I tried to foster his love for music.

Anyway, she was considered a prodigy, but behind the scenes is was anything BUT a natural gift.  Here hands were about 3/4 the size of mine.  I think she could just barely reach an octave.  But she played all of those 24 Etudes, my gaze fixed upon her performance from about 10 feet away, and I heard not one dropped note from the entire set.  And they were all performed at tempos, and with musicality that I could only dream to possess. 

[bronnestam]

Beethoven's father, Johann van Beethoven, had a dream that his son would become a new Mozart (and himself the new Leopold Mozart, of course) and to pursue the progidy image he set Beethoven's birth year two years later than it really was. That is why Beethoven sometimes is said to be born 1772, but truth is that he was born in 1770.

Well, it happened then I sometimes I believe it can still happen, because some parents seem prepared to do anything to pursue their little progidies ... not because they are mean, I suppose. They may think that stardom is the best for their children - after all it is nice to be a celebrated star, right?

Anyway, it is often told that "talent" IS equal to the ability of working real hard.

I think it is a pity that we favourize early talents so much, because it often means we neglect and stop encouraging late bloomers. After all, there are early varietys of potatoes and later varieties, and truth is that we need both of them. But by just encouraging early bloomers, many late bloomers drop out and give up before they are ready for their breakthrough, and so the world loses yet another talent.

We have an insane educational system all over the world, where students are sorted according to their biological age and where quick and early learners are considered good students, while those who have a late development are being told they are bad, stupid and failures. This is a pattern remaining from the industrialism era where people were believed to function as machines, and therefore the schools were made very similar to factories, with the children as production units ...

That is what I always say: take your time. Don't press yourself, don't practice in a way you find boring. Boredom is a signal from your brain that you are not on the right path for YOU. It does not mean that this will never be your cup of tea, that you can just as well give up and become a bricklayer instead - it means it is wrong RIGHT NOW. Be serious about having fun. When you enjoy your work at the piano, it means you are in harmony with yourself, and you will develop your own full potential. This is no warranty that you eventually will "make it" big time as a pianist, but you will become a happy person and after all, isn't that the primary goal?

Some of us are just late potatoes. They also taste good. Some of us are not potatoes at all, but carrots. That's fine too. But if you are a carrot, don't be sad that you are not an early potato. The world does not need yet another Mozart.

[dcstudio]

If I recall correctly, you did not recall correctly  

Obviously wikipedia is hardly the height of scholarly excellence, but it says the following:

Mendelssohn was renowned during his lifetime as a keyboard performer, both on the piano and on the organ. One of his obituarists noted:

    First and chiefest we esteem his pianoforte-playing, with its amazing elasticity of touch, rapidity, and power; next his scientific and vigorous organ playing [...] his triumphs on these instruments are fresh in public recollection.[106]

In his concerts and recitals Mendelssohn performed both his own works and those of his predecessor German composers, notably works of Weber, Beethoven and (on the organ) J.S. Bach.[107]

Both in private and public performances, Mendelssohn was also renowned for his improvisations.

you are absolutely right... and I should know better than to trust my memory of music history class--I do very humbly stand corrected.  In this instance Wikipedia is a source of scholarly excellence when compared to my powers of recall. 

I have this very specific memory from 25 years ago--my music history prof Dr. Hebda spoke of a mediocre guitar player--not much of an instrumentalist but great composer... he is one of the "famous 50" --somehow I put Mendelssohn in there--but I had Dr. Hebda for Baroque and Classical history... so it couldn't be Mendelssohn.   I remember that Schoenberg wasn't much of a player--(wow--what a surprise that is...lol..)  and Berlioz was also not conservatory trained but they don't fit either..

  it really sucks getting old... lol

oh well, being wrong now and then keeps me from believing I have all the answers...

[briansaddleback]

I've been getting by all my life with hard work no talent. It has been great. Never felt suicidal over it not sure why one should there must be other issues manifest in one's life if that is a fact.

I feel good when the teacher says or implies if Brian can work something out with his limited time he has I'm sure you could.  And I'm known in piano class (and guitar class) as a hard worker w no excuses.

Trust me you're looking at your life through the wrong lenses if you're tired of hearing about talent around you. I'm so happy I am playing on the same field w those who claim talent at my school.

[dcstudio]

the secret to getting better is to surround yourself with musicians who are way more skilled than you are.  seek out that talent don't resent it.

[distantfieldrelative]

All easier said than done.

[adodd81802]

Go cry somewhere else, feeling sorry for yourself or hoping others will feel sorry for you won't make your lacking effort any less acceptable.

Great pianists didn't get where they were because they had a head start on other poeple, or had to work any less. The difference is they never gave up, and while you sit there watching kids play Chopins Etudes, Those same "prodigies" are there at the piano perfecting their ability, using every spare minute to snowball even further ahead.

Liszt was known to practice at times for up to 14 hours a DAY. I could only WISH i had that time to do so. Are you telling me thats god's given talent?

Turn off youtube, go back to the piano and actually start practicing.

[distantfieldrelative]

kalm down Ares. I think you misinterpret the point of this .

[kawai_cs]

adodd81802, ouch!
I am afraid many of us would be ready to practice long hours (if we had the time) and it still would not get us as far as people with natural talents. I think that is what he means. Life is just not fair. It is what it is.

[dcstudio]

Liszt was known to practice at times for up to 14 hours a DAY. I could only WISH i had that time to do so. Are you telling me thats god's given talent?

I know that there is such a thing as "natural" ability because I witness it regularly.  I think that natural musicians are probably quite a bit more common than we realize.   What is uncommon is the drive that keeps you at the piano for incredibly long periods of time and the desire to stick with it no matter how frustrating it is. 

I also get a little annoyed at people who believe these mystified accounts of the great composers.  I remember seeing the busts of the masters hanging on my teachers wall when I was 6.   They all looked crazy or miserable or both and I thought for sure they could come down off the wall and torture me if I did not perform their music correctly.    lol.  yes they were genius but they were not supernatural beings endowed with special powers.. they were just MEN.

adodd81802, ouch!
I am afraid many of us would be ready to practice long hours (if we had the time) and it still would not get us as far as people with natural talents. .

many pianists are afraid of this very thing.. so they convince themselves that's just the way it is.  I have no natural talent so why bother practicing? I will never be as good as him.


I would say kawai that you probably have loads of natural talent

[kawai_cs]

Thanks for kind words dcstudio   however I think in my case it is rather strong inclination and hard work. Ok, lets not beat around the bush, it is neurosis + long hours

[dcstudio]

that's what I have been saying all along.. lol.   This is not "normal" adult behavior.  If you are not obsessed you will give up..  ok... If I am not obsessed I give up!

so rejoice in your neurosis! and be proud of it!    that's what makes you great.

[ajlongspiano]

  I've been able to achieve a relatively satisfactory standard of playing after three years of piano lessons. At least to myself. I think the key to learning quickly and efficiently is lots of diligence, and a strong love/desire to be involved in the art. The second point is the most important part. If you practice many hours a day against your own will, you may become technically proficient, but your work will never be genuinely inspiring to others. Your life must be completely immersed in your art. While you are not practicing, you must be composing, or listening to music, reading a book on music, or even laying in bed and thinking about different musical nuances and possibilities. For art to come out of you, it must truly be apart of you,

Best,

AJ

[briansaddleback]

Go cry somewhere else, feeling sorry for yourself or hoping others will feel sorry for you won't make your lacking effort any less acceptable.

Great pianists didn't get where they were because they had a head start on other poeple, or had to work any less. The difference is they never gave up, and while you sit there watching kids play Chopins Etudes, Those same "prodigies" are there at the piano perfecting their ability, using every spare minute to snowball even further ahead.

Liszt was known to practice at times for up to 14 hours a DAY. I could only WISH i had that time to do so. Are you telling me thats god's given talent?

Turn off youtube, go back to the piano and actually start practicing.

Well said. High five

[dcstudio]

  I've been able to achieve a relatively satisfactory standard of playing after three years of piano lessons. At least to myself. I think the key to learning quickly and efficiently is lots of diligence, and a strong love/desire to be involved in the art. The second point is the most important part. If you practice many hours a day against your own will, you may become technically proficient, but your work will never be genuinely inspiring to others. Your life must be completely immersed in your art. While you are not practicing, you must be composing, or listening to music, reading a book on music, or even laying in bed and thinking about different musical nuances and possibilities. For art to come out of you, it must truly be apart of you,

Best,

AJ

and a large percentage of the people here want to do what you have done...they would be wise to listen to your advice.  you are right on the money, too... that is exactly what it takes.   

[kawai_cs]

  Ok, so really, you guys, who are natural talents and proficient at piano just don’t seem to get it that there are people who just like you, love music truly and vehemently and devote themselves to it fully but still are not able to go e.g. study piano performance because they can never achieve as good results as you. Wonder why is that? Well, because they are not as talented as you.

  Take me as an example. I really worked like a slave in my teenage years devoting every spare minute of my time to piano. I lived music and piano. In spite of all this effort and energy and thought devoted to piano at some point I had to realize that I cannot really compete with the 2 talented pianists at my school. The league they were in was just out of my reach.
It is like with learning foreign languages. Some people can learn a foreign language proficiently but they still can’t get rid of a really strong accent. Nobody wants to listen to piano music that sounds like a language spoken with a terrible accent.

  That is why I do understand OP’s pain well. It is not fair but we can’t really help it.
I can go study theory, try to compose music, contemplate music and practice in my all spare time and still my hands are in my way when I am playing;-)

  And just to let you know - I am writing this while having a 10 minute break in my practice session.

[dcstudio]

Wonder why is that? Well, because they are not as talented as you.

 

I cannot speak for anyone else but I never considered myself to be very good at the piano.  If you think I grew up believing I had any talent or special skill think again.  I gave those very same arguments (even worded almost the same way) when I was in music school.  I accepted without question that I was NOT one of the lucky ones who could actually play or would ever be able to play.  I studied my theory endlessly, played exercises, and slaved away at the piano in what seemed like a fool's errand or a pipe dream. I was so disheartened that I quit music school.  My belief that I was not really a good player continued long after I began playing professionally.   Not even a million hits on YT caused me to reevaluate my own skills... it was just a fluke. lol.   I mean I could go and sit at a keyboard and play while people ate dinner.. but that was no big deal.  Sure, I got paid... but so do a lot of untalented musicians.


so, cut me some slack if I argue with you when you say things like that...  I mean you sound EXACTLY LIKE ME at 25--except there was an entire department of piano majors I could not compete with.  I would spend months learning music and one of those jerks would walk in and sight-read it.  I understand the OP's pain...trust me. I still know that pain--although now I label it what it is.. musical neurosis.

the more you argue with me the more I know I am right... YOU are a natural talent--it's just not quite in your hands yet.   I am going to remind you of this if we are both still here in 5 years.

 

[mjames]

meh don't concern yourself with what others do, you're setting yourself up for destruction. Just do you and the music. Don't compare yourself to freaks like AjLong

Besides Kawaii your mazurka was fun to listen to. That's what matters, no?

[briansaddleback]

I cannot speak for anyone else but I never considered myself to be very good at the piano.  If you think I grew up believing I had any talent or special skill think again.  I gave those very same arguments (even worded almost the same way) when I was in music school.  I accepted without question that I was NOT one of the lucky ones who could actually play or would ever be able to play.  I studied my theory endlessly, played exercises, and slaved away at the piano in what seemed like a fool's errand or a pipe dream. I was so disheartened that I quit music school.  My belief that I was not really a good player continued long after I began playing professionally.   Not even a million hits on YT caused me to reevaluate my own skills... it was just a fluke. lol.   I mean I could go and sit at a keyboard and play while people ate dinner.. but that was no big deal.  Sure, I got paid... but so do a lot of untalented musicians.


so, cut me some slack if I argue with you when you say things like that...  I mean you sound EXACTLY LIKE ME at 25--except there was an entire department of piano majors I could not compete with.  I would spend months learning music and one of those jerks would walk in and sight-read it.  I understand the OP's pain...trust me. I still know that pain--although now I label it what it is.. musical neurosis.

the more you argue with me the more I know I am right... YOU are a natural talent--it's just not quite in your hands yet.   I am going to remind you of this if we are both still here in 5 years.

 

dcstudio , kawai and I should all get together for a full fun night discussing piano at some piano lounge .

yes. kawai has great natural talent. I mean it. And the ability to captivate anyone with her physical playing at the piano , visually stunning.

and yes, dc is a natural talent as well . and a venerable well experienced voice of musical wisdom. would love to learn what you have to say in person.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Talent gives you a free couple of steps up the ladder, but unless it's allied to dedication and hard work, that's all it gets you.

[briansaddleback]

Talent gives you a free couple of steps up the ladder, but unless it's allied to dedication and hard work, that's all it gets you.

You are absolutely right. I love it.

There is a saying not sure who is the author but  I saw somewhere about (paraphrased):

"Everyone is talented. They all huddle around the base of the ladder. They cosmetically look at and compare with each other, not noticing the ladder.
The pool of people who never climb is mediocrity, ironically.
And the one who climbs the ladder? He separates himself from the talented mediocrity. "

I hope to be this person climbing the ladder.

[outin]

"Everyone is talented.

Nope. Not if we consider talent to be the combination of natural charachteristics that people do or do not possess from early age. There are specific demands for high level pianism that one may or may not have. Of course everyone is talented in some way, but not necessarily for piano playing.

The problem is that it's usually not possible to tell before one has done enough work. The natural benefits and limitations can be masked by lack of work, lack of good teaching or psychological and physiological barriers. Many of those can be worked on, but it may take time. So while talent or lack of talent does exists, it cannot be detected simply by looking at the present state of skill.

So we should just do our best and see where we can get

[pianodannn]

Go cry somewhere else, feeling sorry for yourself or hoping others will feel sorry for you won't make your lacking effort any less acceptable.

Great pianists didn't get where they were because they had a head start on other poeple, or had to work any less. The difference is they never gave up, and while you sit there watching kids play Chopins Etudes, Those same "prodigies" are there at the piano perfecting their ability, using every spare minute to snowball even further ahead.

Liszt was known to practice at times for up to 14 hours a DAY. I could only WISH i had that time to do so. Are you telling me thats god's given talent?

  Unfortunately many people will not become good regardless of any amount of effort invested. And many excellent performers have not invested great amounts of time or effort, contrary to what you say. I know 1 guy who after 9 months of experience, plays vastly better than I, who has around 4500 hours of practice/experience. it would take me 30 years of daily practice to get as good as he was after 9 months. After practicing 3 hours a day, every single day for 4 and a half years, I am now wandering why I even bother to try, as nobody enjoys or appreaciates anything I play, even songs I have recited as many as 10,000 times, are not good enough to even attract 1 view on you tube. I have never invested so much time and dedication, to receive so very little in return. I now discard any concept of effort being the main determiner in life, and consider fate and luck far more influential.My bosses son had never touched a soccer ball until age 10.By age 12 he was being eyed of by talent scouts. He is amazing after just 2 years of experience. In virtually every sport I have been around in my 37 years, the best performers took only a couple of years to reach competitive levels, which pretty much puts rest to this notion that successful people strived for ever and a day to get good.A recent study estimated that grit or persistence accounts for only about 5%  of academic performance achieved by students, leaving the vast majority of factors unrelated to effort. Also it has been shown that Gladwells 10,000 hour rule is complete bunkum. There is no specific number of hours or amount/type of training that can make someone good.

[pianodannn]

 Unfortunately many people will not become good regardless of any amount of effort invested. And many excellent performers have not invested great amounts of time or effort, contrary to what you say. I know 1 guy who after 9 months of experience, plays vastly better than I, who has around 4500 hours of practice/experience. it would take me 30 years of daily practice to get as good as he was after 9 months. After practicing 3 hours a day, every single day for 4 and a half years, I am now wandering why I even bother to try, as nobody enjoys or appreaciates anything I play, even songs I have recited as many as 10,000 times, are not good enough to even attract 1 view on you tube. I have never invested so much time and dedication, to receive so very little in return. I now discard any concept of effort being the main determiner in life, and consider fate and luck far more influential.My bosses son had never touched a soccer ball until age 10.By age 12 he was being eyed of by talent scouts. He is amazing after just 2 years of experience. In virtually every sport I have been around in my 37 years, the best performers took only a couple of years to reach competitive levels, which pretty much puts rest to this notion that successful people strived for ever and a day to get good.A recent study estimated that grit or persistence accounts for only about 5%  of academic performance achieved by students, leaving the vast majority of factors unrelated to effort. Also it has been shown that Gladwells 10,000 hour rule is complete bunkum. There is no specific number of hours or amount/type of training that can make someone good.

[adodd81802]

Unfortunately many people will not become good regardless of any amount of effort invested. And many excellent performers have not invested great amounts of time or effort, contrary to what you say. I know 1 guy who after 9 months of experience, plays vastly better than I, who has around 4500 hours of practice/experience. it would take me 30 years of daily practice to get as good as he was after 9 months. After practicing 3 hours a day, every single day for 4 and a half years, I am now wandering why I even bother to try, as nobody enjoys or appreaciates anything I play, even songs I have recited as many as 10,000 times, are not good enough to even attract 1 view on you tube. I have never invested so much time and dedication, to receive so very little in return. I now discard any concept of effort being the main determiner in life, and consider fate and luck far more influential.My bosses son had never touched a soccer ball until age 10.By age 12 he was being eyed of by talent scouts. He is amazing after just 2 years of experience. In virtually every sport I have been around in my 37 years, the best performers took only a couple of years to reach competitive levels, which pretty much puts rest to this notion that successful people strived for ever and a day to get good.A recent study estimated that grit or persistence accounts for only about 5%  of academic performance achieved by students, leaving the vast majority of factors unrelated to effort. Also it has been shown that Gladwells 10,000 hour rule is complete bunkum. There is no specific number of hours or amount/type of training that can make someone good.

There are many facts here that make your arguments invalid.

Your first point regarding some random person who's practiced for apparently 9 months.

Let's first do some basic maths as so far what you've sent could be completely hypothetical.

your 4500 hours in whatever amount of time. 4 years or something (not that I know why amount of hours matters but hey-ho)

Let's assume this "person" you're referring too did nothing but eat, sleep and play piano, let's go to an extreme and say he managed 16 hours of practice a day.

9 months x 30 days (averaging days in a month) x 16 hours = 4320!

With even so many other factors aside we've first go right down to the basic maths that this person could be near you anyway, if he WORKED HARDER than your casual "3" hours a day.

Let it be known, I don't back this point, it's as completely ridiculous as your point.

Next, as I read more of your comment I get the immediate impression you can go and join your friends crying a river. not even 1 view on YOUTUBE? OH BOO HOO. Up until what 20 years ago nobody knew what Youtube even bloody was how did you think people survived then when they needed to feel good about playing the piano. THEY WORKED HARD.

Now I only have little to no facts from your comment that I can work with here. But when you say 4500 of practice, I honestly don't even know what that means.

Insanity: "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

We could all sit at the piano and play the same things and do the same things  over and over and count that as "practice" I don't know schedule, but I would bet my money that it wasn't great.

At no point did I ever think you could quantify the amount of hours required to master anything (referring to your 10,000) what I said was, people that WORKED HARDER achieved better results.

This is not a time based statement, as you could ignorantly say, well I worked 6 hours and you work 3 so why am I not double as good as you..

I should probably even further clarify that working harder, doesn't necessarily mean just WORKING LONGER. it's working smarter. it's actually PROGRESSING each time you practice at the piano. Rather than wasting 30 minutes on a passage with no actual results.

The people that practice correctly are the people that start to snowball ahead. What makes you think you're even practicing correctly?

Lastly, let me give you some background. I had no formal lessons at the piano until I was about 12. before then I had casually played on a little keyboard that I enjoyed from around 5 years upwards but never took a true interest in the piano until I watched somebody perform a piece. It was like a light switch, I had to get good, I had to perform like I had heard.

That year I worked my butt off my piano teacher gave me grade 1 pieces, grade 2 pieces grade 3 pieces, i flew through them and within that year I performed Chopin's Nocturne op.9 no.2 for her. The next year I was working on grade 5 pieces. That same year I performed Clare De Lune, a Chopin Waltz and a Posth Nocturne.

This is not a gift, I did not possess some magic, I just absolutely loved what I did and I thought about nothing else. Youtube did not exist. The internet was still a gimmick, and text messages on a mobile were so much effort you actually just called people instead!

My life changed and I dropped the piano. for 10 years on and off I never really touched it. I started piano lessons again 2 months ago, performed some pieces that I prepared beforehand which were a bit rusty.

I've been given Beethovens op 14 no.2 to learn, with nothing official but a grade 3 qualification in piano. In 10 years of not properly playing i've completely maintained the ability to practically pick up where I left off and continue to progress.

In 3 weeks I have a concert, and I've got that time to learn a piece - Debussy's Arabesque (you may have seen my first page of effort in the audition form)

3 weeks to learn and confidently perform this piece and do you know what, I'm going to do it. Not by turning up on the day and rocking off the best sight reading i've ever done, but by spending every spare minute I have until then perfecting it. I'm booking time off my day job just to get more time to practice.

Do you even know what hard work truly is?

There are honestly 100000's of pianists better than me at this stage of my ability. Do I honestly care? God no, I care about myself and I care that in 3 weeks time i'm going to give MY best performance regardless of what anybody else is playing.

[outin]

Lastly, let me give you some background. I had no formal lessons at the piano until I was about 12. before then I had casually played on a little keyboard that I enjoyed from around 5 years upwards but never took a true interest in the piano until I watched somebody perform a piece. It was like a light switch, I had to get good, I had to perform like I had heard.

That year I worked my butt off my piano teacher gave me grade 1 pieces, grade 2 pieces grade 3 pieces, i flew through them and within that year I performed Chopin's Nocturne op.9 no.2 for her. The next year I was working on grade 5 pieces. That same year I performed Clare De Lune, a Chopin Waltz and a Posth Nocturne.

This is not a gift, I did not possess some magic, I just absolutely loved what I did and I thought about nothing else.

This is where your logic fails: How would you know whether you have a gift or not? Because you can have no experience of "working your butt off" being someone else. You may indeed have a gift.

[pianodannn]

Well in 3 weeks time you can give your best performance, which won't be as good as the more naturally talented person who spent 1 day reciting their performance.
   And what you said about someone practicing 16 hours per day is irrelevant. 16 hours of the best practice achieves little more than 4 hours. it is a rule of diminishing returns.Plus you forget that just eating a normal healthy diet consumes 3 hours of the day, recommended sleep time 7 hours, Oh and that other bothersome thing which soaks up another 9, work. Plus another couple hours of work and chores after hours.so your concept of the 16 hour practice day is bubcus.
  And no,I don't practice the same thing over and over.NO, practice strategy is not the answer. Practice what and how you will, it wont change the fact that ability is inborn, and trying just doesn't have anything to do with it.Its inherited, and that's all there is to it. Effort is the smallest component of all factors which determine proficiency.Hard work is worth little compared to natural ability. You can practice 22 hours a day for 10 years, but there are people who will become better within their first month of laying a finger on the piano.

[adodd81802]

This is where your logic fails: How would you know whether you have a gift or not? Because you can have no experience of "working your butt off" being someone else. You may indeed have a gift.

But what honestly is a "gift" it's as blind as telling somebody that they have a soul? I don't honestly believe that I felt the work was easy, I just felt like I put some real thought into my practice and logically got results.

I can sketch draw portraits, that would pass off as pretty damn good portraits, I learnt to speak Polish, and in the UK i'm in the top 10% of fastest touch typers on a Qwerty keyboard... Lol none of these things are related in my mind, i've just used logical steps to achieve my goals...

We are assuming a controlled environment where EVERYBODY is being taught the same and everybody learns the same, and the problem is we don't. That's not to say there are gifted people, and none gifted people, but some people just require more input rather than being left to their own devices, and some people actually need to learn how to learn?

[adodd81802]

Well in 3 weeks time you can give your best performance, which won't be as good as the more naturally talented person who spent 1 day reciting their performance.
   And what you said about someone practicing 16 hours per day is irrelevant. 16 hours of the best practice achieves little more than 4 hours. it is a rule of diminishing returns.Plus you forget that just eating a normal healthy diet consumes 3 hours of the day, recommended sleep time 7 hours, Oh and that other bothersome thing which soaks up another 9, work. Plus another couple hours of work and chores after hours.so your concept of the 16 hour practice day is bubcus.
  And no,I don't practice the same thing over and over.NO, practice strategy is not the answer. Practice what and how you will, it wont change the fact that ability is inborn, and trying just doesn't have anything to do with it.Its inherited, and that's all there is to it. Effort is the smallest component of all factors which determine proficiency.Hard work is worth little compared to natural ability. You can practice 22 hours a day for 10 years, but there are people who will become better within their first month of laying a finger on the piano.

You talk the biggest load of crap i've ever heard. Not EVERYBODY has to work 9 hours a day, not everybody works by your restraining number rules of chores, this that and the other.

If that was truly the case why would Liszt even bother to practice 12 hours a day? Do you honestly believe the people at the top ONLY practice 3 hours a day? AJlongs I believe was stated by dcstudio only the other day to have STARTED at 4 hours on Hanon practice alone...

I only wish you could walk up to a top professional pianist and tell them their hard work is worth little to natural ability, they'd slap you in the face for such a ridiculous statement.

my math statement on 16 hours practice is hypothetical as mentioned equally ridiculous to your statement of somebody MAGICALLY surpassing your 4 years of work in 9 months just because they're "talented" and cruised through it with no hard work.

[ajlongspiano]

How about instead of arguing about who is the most and least talented, we all go practice the piano.

Best,

AJ

[adodd81802]

How about instead of arguing about who is the most and least talented, we all go practice the piano.

Best,

AJ

I would agree. However i'm at work and it's a quiet day, I certainly don't take time out of my piano practice to argue with fools.

[pianodannn]

You talk the biggest load of crap i've ever heard. Not EVERYBODY has to work 9 hours a day, not everybody works by your restraining number rules of chores, this that and the other.

If that was truly the case why would Liszt even bother to practice 12 hours a day? Do you honestly believe the people at the top ONLY practice 3 hours a day? AJlongs I believe was stated by dcstudio only the other day to have STARTED at 4 hours on Hanon practice alone...



I only wish you could walk up to a top professional pianist and tell them their hard work is worth little to natural ability, they'd slap you in the face for such a ridiculous statement.


 I think you are being ridiculous. Do you realize their are people I know who can compose, recite and perform to an impeccable standard an intermediate level piece in just one hour? People who can go for 10 years without playing a piece, then play it perfectly without a single mistake after 10 years of no practice? I cannot go 1 week without forgetting how to play a piece. My first song took me 400 hours of practice to learn satisfactorily. Songs that I have recited thousands of times are still extremely difficult for me to play without making a slip up or mistake. A song I have practiced 10,000 times before, I still require 10 takes to complete without making an error. Have any of the "hard workers" you speak of practiced a song every single day of their lives, without question or fail for 4 or 5 years, yet still can not play it?
  It is YOU, who have no concept, AT ALL, about hard work. And the same can be said of your "hard working" professionals. Even if they practice 12 hours a day, it is to master a piece that less talented people could not play after 50 or 60 years of dedicated training by the best masters.



  I

my math statement on 16 hours practice is hypothetical as mentioned equally ridiculous to your statement of somebody MAGICALLY surpassing your 4 years of work in 9 months just because they're "talented" and cruised through it with no hard work.

There are many facts here that make your arguments invalid.

Your first point regarding some random person who's practiced for apparently 9 months.

Let's first do some basic maths as so far what you've sent could be completely hypothetical.

your 4500 hours in whatever amount of time. 4 years or something (not that I know why amount of hours matters but hey-ho)

Let's assume this "person" you're referring too did nothing but eat, sleep and play piano, let's go to an extreme and say he managed 16 hours of practice a day.

9 months x 30 days (averaging days in a month) x 16 hours = 4320!

With even so many other factors aside we've first go right down to the basic maths that this person could be near you anyway, if he WORKED HARDER than your casual "3" hours a day.

Let it be known, I don't back this point, it's as completely ridiculous as your point.

Next, as I read more of your comment I get the immediate impression you can go and join your friends crying a river. not even 1 view on YOUTUBE? OH BOO HOO. Up until what 20 years ago nobody knew what Youtube even bloody was how did you think people survived then when they needed to feel good about playing the piano. THEY WORKED HARD.

Now I only have little to no facts from your comment that I can work with here. But when you say 4500 of practice, I honestly don't even know what that means.

Insanity: "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

We could all sit at the piano and play the same things and do the same things  over and over and count that as "practice" I don't know schedule, but I would bet my money that it wasn't great.

At no point did I ever think you could quantify the amount of hours required to master anything (referring to your 10,000) what I said was, people that WORKED HARDER achieved better results.

This is not a time based statement, as you could ignorantly say, well I worked 6 hours and you work 3 so why am I not double as good as you..

I should probably even further clarify that working harder, doesn't necessarily mean just WORKING LONGER. it's working smarter. it's actually PROGRESSING each time you practice at the piano. Rather than wasting 30 minutes on a passage with no actual results.

The people that practice correctly are the people that start to snowball ahead. What makes you think you're even practicing correctly?

Lastly, let me give you some background. I had no formal lessons at the piano until I was about 12. before then I had casually played on a little keyboard that I enjoyed from around 5 years upwards but never took a true interest in the piano until I watched somebody perform a piece. It was l

[pianodannn]

But what honestly is a "gift" it's as blind as telling somebody that they have a soul? I don't honestly believe that I felt the work was easy, I just felt like I put some real thought into my practice and logically got results.

I can sketch draw portraits, that would pass off as pretty damn good portraits, I learnt to speak Polish, and in the UK i'm in the top 10% of fastest touch typers on a Qwerty keyboard... Lol none of these things are related in my mind, i've just used logical steps to achieve my goals...

We are assuming a controlled environment where EVERYBODY is being taught the same and everybody learns the same, and the problem is we don't. That's not to say there are gifted people, and none gifted people, but some people just require more input rather than beinown devices, and some people actually need to learn how to learn?

      You don't get it, that what you see as "hard work" is no harder than every other tom dick and harry has worked.You take for granted good progress, and assume your hard work is the difference between you and the lesser achievers.
   Did you know that I.Q score, which is largely inherited, predicts life outcomes far better than any other measure. That hard work, or diligence or effort, or passion or whatever other bunkum you come up with does not achieve what a genetically inherited gift can achieve. More and more scientific research is showing effort and training to have smaller influence than what we thought in the past. Whatever it is that makes somebody good, hard work isn't it.........

[distantfieldrelative]

It would be nice to think that everyone is on equal grounds as human beings.
But it is foolish to think that. Some very gifted people are endowed with great gifts...
 And some are not...

It can be a great determiner (of how much a person gets out of life), their attitude.
Some people can do anything and some never get the chance to see the light of day.

Life isn't fair and no one expects it to be. But as brothers and sisters in this terrible fate called life, why cant the favored few at least try to understand the less fortunate?

Aj is right.  Please don't argue with such bitterness towards each other.
And please try to understand the envy of the lesser; even if their comparing themselves to legendary figures makes no sense.

Human imoerfection is a pregnant dog, ehh?

[adodd81802]

You do not appear to know how to quote so I will line out your text and further clarify why you are wrong.
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I think you are being ridiculous. Do you realize their are people I know who can compose, recite and perform to an impeccable standard an intermediate level piece in just one hour?
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RESPONSE
Obviously you're accurate with your facts again I see? Yeah guess what if Zimmerman picked up a grade 8 piece I bet he'd nail that in 10 minutes too.  What do you call standard or intermediate I have no idea. My Piano teacher can sight read grade 8 pieces that take me weeks to get through a page. He's no magician that's for sure.
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People who can go for 10 years without playing a piece, then play it perfectly without a single mistake after 10 years of no practice? I cannot go 1 week without forgetting how to play a piece.
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RESPONSE
What you're talking about here is memory. That's not to do with having a gift in my honest opinion.
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My first song took me 400 hours of practice to learn satisfactorily. Songs that I have recited thousands of times are still extremely difficult for me to play without making a slip up or mistake. A song I have practiced 10,000 times before, I still require 10 takes to complete without making an error.
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RESPONSE
Again with your ridiculous numbers. Have you truly noted 10,000 attempts at a piece, how do you honestly find the time to actually practice if you're making notes of all these numbers. Again I don't actually believe your practice schedule is a sufficient one if you can "practice" a piece 10,000 times and still make mistakes, you're just practicing mistakes. That's functions of the brains, not a gift in the fingers.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Have any of the "hard workers" you speak of practiced a song every single day of their lives, without question or fail for 4 or 5 years, yet still can not play it?
  It is YOU, who have no concept, AT ALL, about hard work. And the same can be said of your "hard working" professionals. Even if they practice 12 hours a day, it is to master a piece that less talented people could not play after 50 or 60 years of dedicated training by the best masters.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RESPONSE
I find it insulting that you are now just labelling "talented" people as non-hard workers because they may find something easier then you. That you would suggest I worked less harder than you to achieve my goals that you still cannot achieve.

I could promise you now as Rubinstein did promise that he could turn any 70 year old into a virtuoso having never touched the piano beforehand, I could teach somebody to practice EXACTLY the way I practice and you'd get EXACTLY the same results. That's not necessarily saying you'd be a professional (as I am far from it) But I can teach absolutely anybody to be as good as I am if they completely complied with my instructions exactly as I told them.
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[pianodannn]

  Its not even envy of the lesser. I don't even envy more successful people. It angers me that our entire culture blames shortcomings on laziness, and promotes this garbage nonsense that you can do whatever you want if you believe and try and all that rubbish, which is not only an exaggeration, but an outright lie. Unfortunately I am beyond being convinced hard work will get you anywhere, and frankly, the high achievers get no pat on the back. Their successes were inherited one way or the other. The teacher or instructor that they did not choose, the parents that they did not choose to push or not push them, the school that they didn't choose to attend or not attend, the intellect or learning ability that they had no choice with.
   All outcomes are the byproduct of  chance and circumstance.

[adodd81802]

It would be nice to think that everyone is on equal grounds as human beings.
But it is foolish to think that. Some very gifted people are endowed with great gifts...
 And some are not...

It can be a great determiner (of how much a person gets out of life), their attitude.
Some people can do anything and some never get the chance to see the light of day.

Life isn't fair and no one expects it to be. But as brothers and sisters in this terrible fate called life, why cant the favored few at least try to understand the less fortunate?

Aj is right.  Please don't argue with such bitterness towards each other.
And please try to understand the envy of the lesser; even if their comparing themselves to legendary figures makes no sense.

Human imoerfection is a pregnant dog, ehh?

My point has never been that everybody is equal. But that with talent or no talent, if the hard work is truly put into being great, 2 people could be great.

It may be true one could find that ability comes more naturally, but I do not believe it's right to say it would be impossible for hard work to not achieve the same results.

I do completely agree however, comparing yourself to others, especially envying better, will NOT do anything for your confidence and ability. And the reality will always be you do not know what's going on behind close doors, seeing the same results does not mean two people did the same thing to achieve them.

[distantfieldrelative]

I did not intend that post for you specifically. I read the entire thread and wrote something that I felt would diffuse the atmosphere a bit. Maybe I misspoke.

I don't think everyone is equal. There are people that are cursed with mental illness.
There are unfortunate ones that have extreme physical disabilities.

Not everyone is equal.