Fantasie Impromptu as my first piece [audio]

[teddy1324]

Hi everyone. For the last few months, I have been trying to learn Fantasie Impromptu on the piano using online tutorials - with the aim of being able to play it before my 22nd birthday, which was a few days ago. I have been successful in the sense that I can play the whole piece, but I would appreciate some feedback.

I have no musical training and have not been involved in anything in any musical capacity before. Obviously, I can't read music and haven't had lessons, so I'm sure there's a lot someone could point out to me.

Yes, I realise I have been a little arrogant jumping straight into a diploma piece with no experience on the piano, but I just wanted to see what would happen. I love classical music and have done for years, and I wanted to be able to stop being a passive listener and start being a performer myself.

I realise I slow down at the climax and the bit after is a bit of a disaster, but this was only a practice recording and I wasn't actually intending on playing this to anyone. I'm not at home at the moment, but when I am, I will post a more complete version.

edit: for those who wanted a video

[vaniii]

Good for you.

Do you want my honesty?

I ask permission because people either want critical feedback, or ego massaging.

[teddy1324]

Obviously I want honesty or I would have waited until I had learned the piece as best as I felt I could before putting up a full length flashy video to show off. This is still very much in beta and therefore while I appreciate compliments, I also want to know specifically how to to target my practice.

[vaniii]

I ask, knowing as a teacher some students do not want to hear the truth.

You're recording is quite admirable and contains many redeeming qualities, however the issues I have with this is the method in which you have learnt to play it.

From the outset you have stated that you cannot read music and have pieced together this performance through using online tutorials. Though respect your tenacity and perseverance, I cannot endorse pursuing music in this manner, especially in an attempt to perform concert repertoire.

May I ask, why you have not taking the time to learn how to read sheet music? To rationalize, this process has taken you, more than likely, a number of months to achieve. However a person who invested the skill to read music would be able to produce a performable rendition within a few hours.

I strongly encourage you to work on this skill as your current attempts are painfully inefficient.

Before I could possibly comment further I would need to understand where you are coming from, why have you not taken up study with a teacher? It might not be relevant to you, but your sound production gives many signals to a trained ear. A teacher would highlight these issues and help you correct them.


Respectfully,

V

[outin]

May I ask, why you have not taking the time to learn how to read sheet music? To rationalize, this process has taken you, more than likely, a number of months to achieve. However a person who invested the skill to read music would be able to produce a performable rendition within a few hours.

Although I agree that it's inefficient to learn to play without learning to read notation, but lets be honest: Most people would take many many years to reach a level of reading and playing to be able to perform this after just a few hours.

[kalospiano]

HOLY SH**!!!!
I think it's coming up great. You'll be able to impress many people playing this piece this way
Is it really really really your first piece ever?
How long did it take you to get to this?
Keep working on it, I'm waiting to hear the full version.

[vaniii]

Although I agree that it's inefficient to learn to play without learning to read notation, but lets be honest: Most people would take many many years to reach a level of reading and playing to be able to perform this after just a few hours.

Perform-able simply means to be able to get through it; it does not necessarily mean a remarkable or even distinct performance.  Imagine, reading a simple piece at sight, the same methods are used to read the fantasy impromptu, or other concert pieces.

I think his performance is very good; however the aspects I can hear that prompt further comment would require him to change how he discerns the music.  To explain, this is how one reads a phrase and understanding the shape, which, is then transferable to other pieces of music.

Currently, based on how it has been learned, despite the merits of the final product, this performance is purely for spectacle and "because I can" factor.

The recording is fine, however correct me if I am wrong.

[mistralx]

I would like to say something from myself.
I am not the one to teach or give advanced advices but just a general idea - in my opinion you did a huge mistake  
It doesn't matter if you want to learn level 8+ piece (like this one) or level 1 piece - firstly you should learn the notes, learn how to read them, learn what each musical sign means.
You know, I think learning piano work in this way is something like... learning a song wrote in a foreign language you don't understand - of course your mouth would "produce" correct words (inflexionally) but when you have no idea what you are singing about, the song will never sound in a proper way.

I would strongly reccomend you to learn some basics. In the 21st century there are so many ways to learn - if you can't afford piano lessons, buy a book, watch youtube tutorials, read some articles.

I understand that you probably spent tens (or hundreds) of hours learning this Fantasie - but you wasted a lot of time. That's because if you spend 10% of this time on learning piano basics, then you would need much less time to learn this one.
If you love this piece - keep work on it, but firstly learn the musical language and obbligatory add some hands development pieces to your programme (it will also help you to save a lot of time in the future).

PS. I am very courious - how much time have you spent learning this piece?  

[outin]

Perform-able simply means to be able to get through it; it does not necessarily mean a remarkable or even distinct performance.  Imagine, reading a simple piece at sight, the same methods are used to read the fantasy impromptu, or other concert pieces.

What you are talking about is still an advanced skill when applied to this level of music, requiring years of study. It's not something the OP could develope just like that. He would have to be willing to start with something a little less ambitious. Many are not...that's why the imitation method is so popular.

[kuska]

Reading notes or not. The effect is great if really was learnt the way OP says. What would be more interesting to me is how much time he would need now to learn a similar piece.

[pjjslp]

Although I agree that it's inefficient to learn to play without learning to read notation, but lets be honest: Most people would take many many years to reach a level of reading and playing to be able to perform this after just a few hours.

Glad you said that! For a moment I thought I was definitely out of my league, even with my decade plus of serious study. I've read through Fantasie Impromptu a couple of times and it would not a few hours' worth of effort, more like months with my limited practice time.

[adodd81802]

I agree with the point on inefficiencies, but I think some of us can adapt far better at certain styles of learning and make them as efficient as possible, even if it is not the 'approved method'.

I always think of this image when people tell you, that you HAVE to learn something a particular way. (see attached)

Why you ponder that thought, let me just leave you here with a wonderful pianist - Nobuyuki Tsujii and his rendition of La Campanella. Oh did I mention he's been completely blind since the day he was born? To my knowledge, he learns completely by ear.

[pjjslp]

I agree with the point on inefficiencies, but I think some of us can adapt far better at certain styles of learning and make them as efficient as possible, even if it is not the 'approved method'.

I always think of this image when people tell you, that you HAVE to learn something a particular way. (see attached)

Why you ponder that thought, let me just leave you here with a wonderful pianist - Nobuyuki Tsujii and his rendition of La Campanella. Oh did I mention he's been completely blind since the day he was born? To my knowledge, he learns completely by ear.

That is amazing! My younger sister didn't learn to read music until she started playing in band at age 10, but long before that, she would listen to me practicing and play what I played by ear. She learned Fur Elise and the first movement of the Moonlight Sonata that way.

[outin]

Reading notes or not. The effect is great if really was learnt the way OP says. What would be more interesting to me is how much time he would need now to learn a similar piece.

Probably quite a lot, although I have seen someone who was amazingly quick with this type of learning...For me just visually memorizing something I don't really understand would be a nightmare...

After I found the internet piano sites I was quite amazed to meet so many people (usually young men) who's dream is just to play one piece, usually something that sounds very difficult or is well known, and to play it in a way that sounds great to a non-pianist. And some seem to be able to achieve that with this type of methods.

Then every now and then one of them gets convinced that it's worth to really study the piano properly, maybe even take lessons. From those how many actually keep going to really reach the level of playing their inital piece usually requires? Do the work that is less flashy and fun and easy? I think not so many...so I wonder if it's better to just let them live their dream, or at least be honest about what it takes to really learn it all

[quantum]

IMO, this is a good example of challenging our learning systems.  Specially within art music education, schools of thought can heavily rely on traditionalism and processes that have been passed down through generations.  However, I believe that we should always continue to question the way we approach music education, and not be too quick to shun an approach that flies in the face of the normative.  There are many lessons that can be learned from a change in perspective, and as mentioned earlier in the thread, there are people from whom this shift in praxis is not optional.  

To the OP, the downside of this approach is the relative inability to communicate between musicians and teachers.  While the movements at the instrument have been learned, the ability to share ideas using widely understood terminology and concepts - an essential component to musical development - has not yet been included as part of the process.  

Nonetheless, what is evident here is a passion to learn something - and that will go a long way.  You have something you want to learn, and with a little bit more structure, you can go further.  It is a very commendable effort to be able to bring this music up to the point displayed in the recording, considering the context in which it was achieved.  

Learning to read music should be one of your priorities.  While it is not a skill that can be learned overnight, it is one that will reward you as you gain proficiency. 

What you are talking about is still an advanced skill when applied to this level of music, requiring years of study. It's not something the OP could develope just like that. He would have to be willing to start with something a little less ambitious. Many are not...that's why the imitation method is so popular.

Such an important point.  

Educators need to recognize the current needs of a student, and that it different for each individual.  Just because a piece is a X level, doesn't mean we should be feeding generic educational templates to the student at that level.  Yes, the idealistic learning process of music at this difficulty does include dealing with more abstract concepts of interpretation, but IMO at this point in the OP's development, there are more pressing matters then tackling high level interpretive decisions.  Immediately jumping into such topics will likely do very little for the OP at this point in time.

[vaniii]

I agree with the point on inefficiencies, but I think some of us can adapt far better at certain styles of learning and make them as efficient as possible, even if it is not the 'approved method'.

I always think of this image when people tell you, that you HAVE to learn something a particular way. (see attached)

Why you ponder that thought, let me just leave you here with a wonderful pianist - Nobuyuki Tsujii and his rendition of La Campanella. Oh did I mention he's been completely blind since the day he was born? To my knowledge, he learns completely by ear.

This is not what I am talking about; the point at hand is a person who has perhaps chosen to ignore the most efficient methods, in an attempt to expedite his musical journey.   Yes, he can now play the 'Fantasie-Impromptu', however, where a sufficiently competent pianist might read it from the page and then move on to another impromptu, our pianist here now has to spend another year decoding and deciphering the next one.

How much of Chopin has been lost in the process?  What about the inflections within the poly-rhythms?  What about the rubato in the agitato sections compared to that of the lyrical middle section; how do you know what to stress and what to skim over?  What about your dynamics?  There are many hairpins and small crescendi/diminuendi that you will likely miss by listening to a recording; more importantly, which recording are you listening to?  How many different recordings are you listening to?

How many renditions have you studied to find a uniform interpretation that highlights the detail; last time I performed this piece, I studied a Peter's, Schirmer, Henle and Paderewski edition and they all have different interpretations determined by the editor; yes they are similar, however, the detail is different.

Imagine if your recording is using even one of those editions, and they are not strict with the source material, you are at least three steps away from Chopin.

Are we not trying to recreate Chopin's work respectfully, or are we trying to impress people with a circus act?

IMO, this is a good example of challenging our learning systems.  Specially within art music education, schools of thought can heavily rely on traditionalism and processes that have been passed down through generations.  However, I believe that we should always continue to question the way we approach music education, and not be too quick to shun an approach that flies in the face of the normative.  There are many lessons that can be learned from a change in perspective, and as mentioned earlier in the thread, there are people from whom this shift in praxis is not optional. 

To the OP, the downside of this approach is the relative inability to communicate between musicians and teachers.  While the movements at the instrument have been learned, the ability to share ideas using widely understood terminology and concepts - an essential component to musical development - has not yet been included as part of the process. 

Nonetheless, what is evident here is a passion to learn something - and that will go a long way.  You have something you want to learn, and with a little bit more structure, you can go further.  It is a very commendable effort to be able to bring this music up to the point displayed in the recording, considering the context in which it was achieved. 


Such an important point. 

Educators need to recognize the current needs of a student, and that it different for each individual.  Just because a piece is a X level, doesn't mean we should be feeding generic educational templates to the student at that level.  Yes, the idealistic learning process of music at this difficulty does include dealing with more abstract concepts of interpretation, but IMO at this point in the OP's development, there are more pressing matters then tackling high level interpretive decisions.  Immediately jumping into such topics will likely do very little for the OP at this point in time.

You raise valid points, I will tone it down.

However, the OP wanted honesty; I asked permission.

I cannot begin to give him critical feedback, because he would not understand what I am trying to say.

---

To the OP: The only comment I can make would be to keep doing what you are doing if you are happy with the results.  For real improvement, learn to play the piano, not a piece of music.

Thank you for a good rendition.

[visitor]

...
Are we not trying to recreate Chopin's work respectfully, or are we trying to impress people with a circus act?

....

Chopin passed away a long time ago, I don't think he really cares one way or the other. Audience and dedication to the tradition and performance standard usually dictate the traditions the direction this stuff goes.

is this somehow disrespectful? I don't think so. I think  it's rather beautiful actually, and a breath of fresh air in a world where publishers and labels keep releasing untold re renditions of the same pieces over and over again.

i like the circus. piano world can be awfully dull as it is, the more types and approaches, the merrier i say.  


I agree w quantum and to the OP, keep going after what makes  you happy but be open to different ways of achieving your goal but go with what works for you and lets you achieve your goal, whichever they may be. 

[kalospiano]

The only thing that matters is the final result.

Everybody is free to choose their own objective and to reach it any way they prefer.

It probably would have been better if the OP hadn't said anything about his background, so people now would only be judging his playing solely for its quality and not for any other factor.

It's easy: does it sound nice? Yes? Good. No? Bad.

As long as the final result is good, the strategy used to achieve it is irrelevant.

Plus, I'm pretty sure that, having played this piece, the OP has acquired some hands coordination and dexterity that will be easily transferable to playing other pieces as well.

[outin]

How much of Chopin has been lost in the process? 

You may have a point, but I don't think your message comes through very well to someone not "bred" into the classical music world.

Of course I personally think FI is one of his lesser compositions, so there's not that much to lose there really...

[mjames]

After I found the internet piano sites I was quite amazed to meet so many people (usually young men) who's dream is just to play one piece, usually something that sounds very difficult or is well known, and to play it in a way that sounds great to a non-pianist. And some seem to be able to achieve that with this type of methods.

Then every now and then one of them gets convinced that it's worth to really study the piano properly, maybe even take lessons. From those how many actually keep going to really reach the level of playing their inital piece usually requires? Do the work that is less flashy and fun and easy? I think not so many...so I wonder if it's better to just let them live their dream, or at least be honest about what it takes to really learn it all

Are you describing me?

OP: I think it's quite impressive that this is the first piece you have EVER learnt on the piano. That's some serious ability you have there. I mean even with quick learners (Aj for some example) they at least still start from the beginning, but then you just went ahead and dived right in

Well, you have the passion to withstand crazy work. However I would like to not that 4 years ago (when I started playing) I might not have been able to do what you just did, but I assure you if I attempted this piece today I would get it under my hands in weeks. Not because I'm special and talented like you guys, but because I did it progressively, and managed to not only learn the piano but I also built a foundation. And luckily enough, even though I'm self-taught, I managed not to get any bad habits.

I wholly suggest that if you truly want to bring this piece justice, and if you truly want to embark on the beautiful journey of playing piano - get a teacher. He/she (if they're good) will take that raw talent of yours and they'll help you polish it. it might seem tedious at first, but the hard work will pay off. Trust me I know, I have a teacher now, and I'm able to learn so many things that would have taken months for me figure out if I was alone. Powering through great pieces for months is great and all, but in the long run it might be detrimental to your progress. Find somebody to help you.

Again, congrats dude. This is pretty amazing. Not a lot of people can do what you just did. It's not perfect but at least you can take pride in that.

Happy piano playing.

[huaidongxi]

will address the validity of learning by ear and mimesis.  the keyboard itself is so compatible with our hands and fingers that learning by ear has a strong tradition.  a number of very famous pianists reproduced serious compositions after hearing them and/or seeing them performed, before they mastered score-reading.  playing a piano is a form of choreography. choreography has been communicated and transmitted through generations without notation much more than by using notation.  because we now have extensive visual records showing in detail how the fingers and rest of the body are used in performing many piano works, the potential of learning via mimesis and training the ear has never been greater.

[teddy1324]

I'm not actually asking for anybody's opinion on the method I used to play the piece. I was asking to be critiqued on the performance. I considered my lack of prior experience/teacher was relevant to the extent that feedback from you guys would be particularly important in my case as I have nothing else to go on other than my own ear.  To suggest I don't or can't understand the piece without seeing it written down is absurd; as it has been pointed out, there are fantastic blind pianists. Reading music is a luxury, and learning a piece from the page is a formality if it is possible to learn the exact same piece either audibly or visually. Personally, I understand the light and shade of the piece intuitively by listening to it (though it's not exactly a hard piece to interpret); I don't conceptualise the piece in terms of the notes or annotations on a page but purely melodically. Having said that, the title 'impromptu' - played as if on the spur of the moment - was very telling to me when it came to considering how the piece ought to be approached, while the 4:3 poly-rhythm creates a sort of quivering frenzy, which when I am better at playing the piece I will try accentuate through rubato.

You can speak to me using musical 'lingo', by the way. I said I had no prior experience of the piano, not that I was ignorant of musical terminology; my entire family is extremely musical, and I have been up until now the odd one out in that I don't sing or play an instrument. Nonetheless, I have been surrounded by music my whole life. A lot of ludicrous, pompous assumptions about me have been made about me purely because I've attempted to learn a piece I thought sounded like it would be fun to learn/play. (It's taken around 2-3 months, by the way - not a year as someone suggested).

Also, I am not learning this so I can show off to my mates. None of them are remotely interested in classical music and wouldn't care if I could play La Campanella, blindfolded, with my feet. This was a personal endeavour undertaken to see how far I could get. When I realised I could actually play the thing, I realised I might have a natural aptitude for the piano. I intend to learn nocturne op 2 no 27 next, possibly with the aid of a teacher. Why? Because I want to, and because I can. These are the only two reasons that matter to me.

[pjjslp]

Because I want to, and because I can. These are the only two reasons that matter to me.

Perfect reasons, as far as I'm concerned! My favorite thing about being an adult amateur is that I get to play what I want, for no reason other than "I want to."

You may wish to cut some slack to those who made assumptions about your lack of music knowledge. You did state in your original post that you had no training and no prior involvement with anything musical. That's a far cry from having a fair amount of knowledge that you simply haven't applied to playing an instrument.  

I think you have some serious natural ability and should do what makes you happy! I've heard smoother, more polished Fantasie Impromptus, but I can't play it at all, so I'm impressed with your effort.

[teddy1324]

By the way, I don't think anyone has critiqued it yet. I do aim to post a more complete and improved version, but I would like to know what you guys think I should be working on since I appreciate many of you are much more experienced than I am.

[teddy1324]

Perfect reasons, as far as I'm concerned! My favorite thing about being an adult amateur is that I get to play what I want, for no reason other than "I want to."

You may wish to come some slack to those who made assumptions about your lack of music knowledge. You did state in your original post that you had no training and no prior involvement with anything musical. That's a far cry from having a fair amount of knowledge that you simply haven't applied to playing an instrument.  

I think you have some serious natural ability and should do what makes you happy! I've heard smoother, more polished Fantasie Impromptus, but I can't play it at all, so I'm impressed with your effort.

I take the point. I said I had never been involved in anything in any musical capacity myself (eg a choir), but that doesn't mean I don't listen to or haven't been surrounded by classical music.

I know there are better fantasie impromptus. I want to make mine better. I'll remain obsessive about it until it sounds perfect to me, and I can move onto that nocturne. I'd love some pointers on what you've heard before I attempt a complete version to post up in this thread.

[mjames]

Relax man, it's quite normal. A lot of people here can get a little bit jealous whenever truly talented people post! Especially quick learners.

Personally I hear there's quite a bit of tension/strain in your playing, which is apparent from the beginning. That might be a reason as to why you're running out of steam near the end.  If you are, try reworking on the arpeggios and really make the baselines resonate and sing - without pedal. You tend to muddy the notes quite a bit. In regards to technical issues, hard to give you advice on that, perhaps try posting a video recording so you can get a better diagnosis. Better yet, also tell us what you think you should work on in regards to technique. There are some very knowledgeable people here and they will be able to give you some awesome pointers. It makes it easier for them when you tell them what your issues are. Or get a teacher!

Musically I think you're on point. Like you said, it's not terribly difficult to interpret - a rather straightforward piece, but still you're doing great.

And yup, your reasons are perfectly suitable. "tradition, respecting composers blah blah", some of us just want to play for fun and see how far we can get! Also with the fantasie already under your belt, I doubt you'd struggle with the op. 27. It's fun and enjoyable, go for it man! Again, happy piano playing. : ]

[teddy1324]

Relax man, it's quite normal. A lot of people here can get a little bit jealous whenever truly talented people post! Especially quick learners.

Personally I hear there's quite a bit of tension/strain in your playing, which is apparent from the beginning. That might be a reason as to why you're running out of steam near the end.  If you are, try reworking on the arpeggios and really make the baselines resonate and sing - without pedal. You tend to muddy the notes quite a bit. In regards to technical issues, hard to give you advice on that, perhaps try posting a video recording so you can get a better diagnosis. Better yet, also tell us what you think you should work on in regards to technique. There are some very knowledgeable people here and they will be able to give you some awesome pointers. It makes it easier for them when you tell them what your issues are. Or get a teacher!

Musically I think you're on point. Like you said, it's not terribly difficult to interpret - a rather straightforward piece, but still you're doing great.

And yup, your reasons are perfectly suitable. "tradition, respecting composers blah blah", some of us just want to play for fun and see how far we can get! Also with the fantasie already under your belt, I doubt you'd struggle with the op. 27. It's fun and enjoyable, go for it man! Again, happy piano playing. : ]

Thanks man That's exactly the sort of reply I was looking for. Personally, I fear the internal rhythm is slightly off and there are too many pauses. I need to separate the hands and practice them both with a metronome, and then bring them back together. I need to work more on that sense of trembling that the piece evokes; for example, in the very first bars, it needs to start softly and quickly and become louder. There is some tension in the first section - i find the first run up the piano at the start awkward in the left hand. The notes aren't perfectly even either. It's literally all I can hear when I make recordings and it bugs me so much. That's the reason I only have one

[georgey]

Hello OP piano performer.  I did not listen to your playing.  I will assume it sounds great and that you are not exaggerating in your description that you provide.   Here are my thoughts:

Case 1)  You plan on earning a living as a musician (performer, teacher).  You will need to learn to read music and much more if you plan on being a teacher of classical piano.  You will likely not be able to earn a living as a solo performer in classical piano unless you win or close to win major competitions.  This appears to be impossibility without being able to read music.  Can you think of any examples of real people who could not read music and are successful classical pianists?  You will not be able to perform in classical chamber music performances.  Who would want to work with you if you can’t read music?

Case 2:  You are just playing for fun:  Go for it!  Do whatever you like.  Don’t worry about anything anyone says here (unless you want to).  Have fun!

[mjames]

I suck at runs too lol! What usually helps me improve them is to play them at different rhythms. Hopefully this will make sense. For example we have a scale:

1: ABCDEFG 2: ABCDEFG 3:ABCDEFG

1, 2, and 3 are all in the same run. By playing in different rhythms I mean starting out the run in say eigth notes in moderato for the 1st part, 2nd part in triplets, 3rd part in sixteeths, and the descend either in the same pattern or in a different one. It's up to you. In quintuplets, 32th notes..whatever. This is something I use to break the monotony of practicing scales, makes it a little bit more fun and interesting, and it keeps the brain awake (so you won't end up just mindlessly drilling them). Also try playing the notes like this as well: AA, BB, CC, DD, EE, FF and so on. Again, these are just tips that help me out.

In regards to reducing tension, I'm not an expert so I can't give you any -qualified- advice. But my personal experience is, back when I started out i used to play a steady wrist, very static, and I moved with my hands (the hands basically did all the work.) Wasn't a big deal when I played slow works, but when it came to mozart or other pieces, the tension used to build up on the wrist quite quickly. What I have learnt from friends, my teacher, and people on this site is to keep a relaxed wrist and to use your arms, not hands, to guide your movement. If you're already doing this, ignore me, but if you're not try it and see if it works. But start slowly and then gradually build up your speed.


And rhythm? Can't help you there. I still can't count properly lol, so when it comes to poly-rhythms I do it by ear. No one has called me out on it yet!

Anyways in regards to reading, I feel that it greatly helps in learning pieces, especially the harder ones. Advanced and later [mid-romantic to 20th century] music is harder to pick up by ear because they're more tonally/harmonically ambiguous. So I don't really have to kick myself when i decide to learn a scriabin piece or some weird late mazurka by Chopin - reading the music helps a ton! But then again there are people that can pick up individual notes from bloody clusters XD, so it might not apply to them. Plus if you ever really get into piano, you'll find yourself digging up obscure music, and unfortunately a lot of them don't have any recordings yet. So it'll definitely help you out in that area too. It's easy and quick to learn, you won't have any troubles with it So I recommend you do it!

[georgey]

OP Piano performer,  I read all your prior posts here just now just to make sure there is not a good reason why you didn't learn to read music, example visual impairment.  Assuming you do not have any learning disabilities, I would think that you should be able to learn to read music in 1 week (by yourself with a book) well enough to play ANY piece, including complex atonal music.  It's not hard.  Just wondering why you didn't take this road.  Regards.

[georgey]

Piano performer,  I read all your prior posts here just now just to make sure there is not a good reason why you didn't learn to read music, example visual impairment.  Assuming you do not have any learning disabilities, I would think that you should be able to learn to read music in 1 week (by yourself with a book) well enough to play ANY piece, including complex atonal music.  It's not hard.  Just wondering why you didn't take this road.  Regards.

To perhaps help you be less afraid to learn to read music, here is most of what is required to read music:

1)   WHICH of the 88 keys do you press? (staffs, clefs, accidentals, key signatures)
2)   WHEN do you press the key and when do you release the key? (time signatures, note values, rests, etc)
3)   Performance instructions (dynamics, tempo,  articulation, phrasing, etc)

The first item could be taught in 1 lesson by most anyone here.  This item alone would get you maybe 80% down the road to learning a piece, IF you are familiar with how the piece sounds.  Regards.

[quantum]

I'm not actually asking for anybody's opinion on the method I used to play the piece. I was asking to be critiqued on the performance.

The discussion serves as context to how a critique is crafted.  Plus, I believe many are interested in the details of how you accomplished this.  Learning goes both ways, just because some of us here are professionals doesn't mean that the conversation goes one direction.

You can speak to me using musical 'lingo', by the way. I said I had no prior experience of the piano, not that I was ignorant of musical terminology; my entire family is extremely musical, and I have been up until now the odd one out in that I don't sing or play an instrument. Nonetheless, I have been surrounded by music my whole life.

This gives a completely different picture than the one you presented in the original post.

Personally, I fear the internal rhythm is slightly off and there are too many pauses. I need to separate the hands and practice them both with a metronome, and then bring them back together. I need to work more on that sense of trembling that the piece evokes; for example, in the very first bars, it needs to start softly and quickly and become louder. There is some tension in the first section - i find the first run up the piano at the start awkward in the left hand. The notes aren't perfectly even either. It's literally all I can hear when I make recordings and it bugs me so much. That's the reason I only have one

Now here's the thing, when we study a piece we often first approach it from the theoretical notes/rhythm perspective, and after that is well understood we move on to the musical and expressive aspect.  While you may not have music reading experience, your are essentially working on the theoretical notes/rhythm by practicing with a metronome and aiming for evenness.  When we work on making a piece musical, we actually undo the theoretical perfection in controlled amounts.  Of course we still strive for evenness in playing, but we don't aim for theoretical adhesion.  It is easy to get carried away with perfecting the 4/3 polyrhythm in this piece, just note it doesn't always have to be exact.  

I did not find pauses in your recording to be objectionable.  However, you could work at defining phrase lengths and breath points.  As there are sections of the piece that tend to feel like they were constructed in one measure blocks, varying the phrase length can help the piece to not sound too blocky. Don't get rid of pauses altogether, as in this type of writing it is also too easy to fall in to the run-on-sentence feel, you need to breathe at points.  


***

Now if you do get hooked on this classical piano thing and decide to learn more pieces, there may be a point in time where you feel you are just not moving forward to your potential.  Don't discount the skill of learning to read music.  If you find you really like playing piano, it will just allow you to do a lot more of an activity you enjoy.  

[outin]

Are you describing me?

Of course not, I see you as one of the success stories 

[vaniii]

Teddy don't take offence; you asked for my honesty so I gave it.

Your recording is good. I agree with the comments about tension.  I can hear where you have broken up the music for assimilation, try to sew the seems. Give yourself permission to let go; after two months of play, your muscle memory should be fluent.

[outin]

Give yourself permission to let go; after two months of play, your muscle memory should be fluent.

Just so that people don't think this is necessarily expected, I want to point out that for some people (like me) it can takes many months for the muscle memory to become reliable even for simpler pieces than this. Whenever my teacher tells me to let go too early in the learning process, the result is always a total disaster

I think you are fortunate with your students to get things so quickly. Have you taught adult beginners?

[kuska]

Relax man, it's quite normal. A lot of people here can get a little bit jealous whenever truly talented people post! Especially quick learners.

Well, I'm not so sure if this is jealousy. In my language there're two kind of jealousy: a good and bad which goes rather into something like envy in English. Telling this, I think I was a bit jealous. But the objectivity is another thing. I've been jealous in a way like "what, I wish I've done that earlier and I was losing my time instead fooling around" and this one is connected to another common problem in returning adults - we feel we've lost what we'd been working on for years. However, this is refreshing and motivating in a way. Cause why anyone couldn't do this that fast. This is why this jealousy is good - it's like a pin stuck under your ribs to go on. And yes it challenges our beliefs about the educational system.

Of course, there're always people who would tell you "you have to go the longer way round, you're too arrogant, too conceited" whatever. But as far as I've observed in my not so long life, those people have some problems with themselves and they're just trying to feel better. E.g. outside the piano stuff: somebody was telling those ill things behind my back and I told to my aunt I didn't care about them and I was not going to spend any of my time talking about them, if they spend their time talking about me I guess they think I'm just better and it makes them envy, I couldn't think of any other reason someone would spend their precious time on talking about me all the time" and then I heard I was conceited xD This is the kind of thinking I mean here, which doesn't necessarily verbalize in a particular way.

I don't mean anyone particular here in the forum, in fact I think the answers were pretty fair. However, this points me to another problem. How can our beliefs and psychological barriers stop us from achieving more. I mean, we've been taught in a given way and it naturally will make us defend the method. But as far as I can't imagine not being able o read sheet music, the explanations of why someone should learn it in the first place, don't sound very convincing to me. To me it sounds more like "come on, we find you worthy to be one of us, jump in, do what we do, be in the group - not outside the group".

[vaniii]

Just so that people don't think this is necessarily expected, I want to point out that for some people (like me) it can takes many months for the muscle memory to become reliable even for simpler pieces than this. Whenever my teacher tells me to let go too early in the learning process, the result is always a total disaster

I think you are fortunate with your students to get things so quickly. Have you taught adult beginners?

Yes, however, approximately no more than 10% of my current student body are adult beginners.  I am quite selective of who I enroll: my primary concern is mindset, moreso than actually ability or talent.

My reason: given enough time, even the most musically inept would have an adequate technical capability, however, a person with the wrong mindset will often retain this mindset for the duration.

I can assure you, my comments are not prompted by envy or jealousy, but more concern for this person's musical development.

There are no shortcuts; in the end, we all eventually have to go and 'make up the lost time' eventually.

As stated, this recording is good, and for what it is, the author should be proud.

[outin]

Well, I'm not so sure if this is jealousy. In my language there're two kind of jealousy: a good and bad which goes rather into something like envy in English. Telling this, I think I was a bit jealous. But the objectivity is another thing. I've been jealous in a way like "what, I wish I've done that earlier and I was losing my time instead fooling around" and this one is connected to another common problem in returning adults - we feel we've lost what we'd been working on for years. However, this is refreshing and motivating in a way. Cause why anyone couldn't do this that fast. This is why this jealousy is good - it's like a pin stuck under your ribs to go on. And yes it challenges our beliefs about the educational system.

Of course, there're always people who would tell you "you have to go the longer way round, you're too arrogant, too conceited" whatever. But as far as I've observed in my not so long life, those people have some problems with themselves and they're just trying to feel better. E.g. outside the piano stuff: somebody was telling those ill things behind my back and I told to my aunt I didn't care about them and I was not going to spend any of my time talking about them, if they spend their time talking about me I guess they think I'm just better and it makes them envy, I couldn't think of any other reason someone would spend their precious time on talking about me all the time" and then I heard I was conceited xD This is the kind of thinking I mean here, which doesn't necessarily verbalize in a particular way.

I don't mean anyone particular here in the forum, in fact I think the answers were pretty fair. However, this points me to another problem. How can our beliefs and psychological barriers stop us from achieving more. I mean, we've been taught in a given way and it naturally will make us defend the method. But as far as I can't imagine not being able o read sheet music, the explanations of why someone should learn it in the first place, don't sound very convincing to me. To me it sounds more like "come on, we find you worthy to be one of us, jump in, do what we do, be in the group - not outside the group".

While I think reading music is generally the most efficient way to learn to play, in cases like mine it was  the main reason I did not go on with the piano in my early years. As an adult I do have some ability to accept my natural limitations (note dyslexia) and the patience to go on regardless but as a kid I simply decided that studying the piano was not my thing despite having many musical abilities and a fondness of the piano as an instrument. I just decided to give up and never looked back. I might have felt differently if taught initially with some other method less dependent on note reading. I learned to sing before I learned to read and to me it's the most natural thing in the world. While I did some practice in sight singing at some point, there was little need for that because I learn the songs so easily by ear.

When I returned to piano many decades later I worked on my reading to the level needed to learn the pieces, but I am not and never will be able to perform with music, no matter how simple. It's not taking an easy way out since I do not have a well working memory either, but at least I have a shot this way to sometimes actually make music

Coming from this I find it hard to judge anyone who wants to skip the struggles with printed music even though I think for an average person it's still the best way.

[kuska]

I can assure you, my comments are not prompted by envy or jealousy, but more concern for this person's musical development.

vaniii,
and as I said I didn't mean anyone from the forum. I just thought that pointing out "jealousy" is too much of a simplification and a common "weapon" in an argument. This is simply not true. And my point was rather there is jealousy and there is admiration. But can we distinctively point out the differences between them?

[outin]

I can assure you, my comments are not prompted by envy or jealousy, but more concern for this person's musical development.

I never thought you were nothing but sincere. I don't even disagree with much that you say, I just look at things a little bit differently. Musical development really isn't a completely objective thing. People have different goals and many important discoveries in the past have been done by people challenging the establish beliefs.

[vaniii]

Noted and understood.

[lostinidlewonder]

teddy1324 you say that this is the first piece you have ever tried on the piano, are you really saying that this is the only piece you can play on the piano?? If this is real then I wonder why you are posting on here since you would have learned a HUGE amount by yourself already. Sure you can watch/read as many tutorials as you like but in the end you have to be able to experiment with your own hands to achieve it. Your questions should be more precise, elaborating upon which bars cause concern and reasons. I reckon post a video if you want more accurate technical advice.

If you have this talent for piano then stop learning pieces at this level, you could be learning hundreds of easier pieces and develop your amazing skills a lot faster. Playing a single piece for months on end is stupid and an inefficient approach to your music.

[kalospiano]

If you have this talent for piano then stop learning pieces at this level, you could be learning hundreds of easier pieces and develop your amazing skills a lot faster. Playing a single piece for months on end is stupid and an inefficient approach to your music.

oh please! This guy took 2-3 months to get at this point as a total beginner (if this was really his first piece as he's saying). How many more experienced pianists are able to do better with this piece (memorizing the full score from scratch plus playing fluently enough)?
Probably the OP is not interested in learning "hundreds (yeah, right) of easier pieces" and this impromptu was his number 1 priority. Why exactly would you call his approach "stupid and inefficient". If the results are these, it rather seems a very intelligent and effective approach to me.
Mayble you should have just stuck to a more neutral "it's not an approach that I like but it seems to work perfectly for you" 

[lostinidlewonder]

oh please! This guy took 2-3 months to get at this point as a total beginner (if this was really his first piece as he's saying).

Please what?

How many more experienced pianists are able to do better with this piece (memorizing the full score from scratch plus playing fluently enough)?

Maybe you didn't listen to the whole recording as it wasn't complete. If this took 2-3 months to play somewhat fluently I'd say it's wasting your time.

Probably the OP is not interested in learning "hundreds (yeah, right) of easier pieces" and this impromptu was his number 1 priority. Why exactly would you call his approach "stupid and inefficient". If the results are these, it rather seems a very intelligent and effective approach to me.

Maybe you should teach a few hundred students to gain experience as to why it is an inefficient approach. You could learn the entire impromptu in much less time with more mastery if you approached music from the bottom up.

Mayble you should have just stuck to a more neutral "it's not an approach that I like but it seems to work perfectly for you"  

I express myself however I like without being edited by strangers thanks. I'm happy to give a different perspective which would be more beneficial to this pianists future rather than encouraging something that in my professional opinion is a time waster.

[teddy1324]

Please what?
Maybe you didn't listen to the whole recording as it wasn't complete. If this took 2-3 months to play somewhat fluently I'd say it's wasting your time.

Maybe you should teach a few hundred students to gain experience as to why it is an inefficient approach. You could learn the entire impromptu in much less time with more mastery if you approached music from the bottom up.
I express myself however I like without being edited by strangers thanks. I'm happy to give a different perspective which would be more beneficial to this pianists future rather than encouraging something that in my professional opinion is a time waster.

You're wrong. That's just a segment of the piece, which I've been able to play in its entirety for a while. If I wanted to learn from the bottom up, I would have done. Kalos was right. Fantasie Impromptu was a piece I wanted to learn, so I learnt it. Evidently this is a concept that some people find difficult to grasp.

I'm going to post a video of the full piece soon. I put the thread up in the hope I could get some useful tips before I do. Instead I've mainly had a lot of tedious pontificating from people telling me what is and isn't a worthwhile way to spend my time.

[lostinidlewonder]

You're wrong. That's just a segment of the piece, which I've been able to play in its entirety for a while. If I wanted to learn from the bottom up, I would have done. Kalos was right. Fantasie Impromptu was a piece I wanted to learn, so I learnt it. Evidently this is a concept that some people find difficult to grasp.

You've spent months on a single piece and nothing else, that is not advisable, you are welcome to think it is wrong but I am basing my opinion on decades of teaching experience. My top students could learn the impromptu in a matter of days and that's not because they are talented but because they have built their learning skills to the level where these pieces can be easily done. You seem very confident to know what is best (why ask for advice then?) as a beginner you'll realize there are a lot of things you don't realize you don't know, it's up to you to take that advice or not. With a more constructive approach you can develop a lot faster and play whatever you like with greater ease, otherwise its going to take months/years for each piece forever, this is such a limitation. Don't take my advice as offence if you don't like it that's ok but maybe think about it, I personally am not invested in what you do but others reading this thread might get a different perspective at least.

[outin]

You've spent months on a single piece and nothing else, that is not advisable, you are welcome to think it is wrong but I am basing my opinion on decades of teaching experience. My top students could learn the impromptu in a matter of days and that's not because they are talented but because they have built their learning skills to the level where these pieces can be easily done.

It makes little sense to evaluate this case based on your top students. The fact that they came to you for lessons and continued them already says that they have other goals than just to play FI. You assume that all beginners are in it for the whole journey, but it seems it's not the case at all. Some people are perfectly happy to learn one or two pieces on the piano and for that purpose the tradiotional method is not necessarily the most efficient because of the vast amount of time it takes.

Of course some of these folks may later realize that they actually want to play many more pieces than just a couple and in restrospect they might have been better off with starting lessons with you in the first place, but you really cannot tell this beforehand.

Sometimes it's good practice to try to see things from the perspective of someone with a very different world view. I think it makes your mind more flexible when you get older

[vaniii]

The logic here is flawed.

Would you start learning mathematics with e=mc² ?

I was called pompous by stating this is a bad idea, however, clearly a person doing this is doing so simple to state "arn't I clever" otherwise they would try to understand the building blocks.

I can concur, with the correct tools you can learn this in a week.

[kuska]

You've spent months on a single piece and nothing else, that is not advisable, you are welcome to think it is wrong but I am basing my opinion on decades of teaching experience. My top students could learn the impromptu in a matter of days and that's not because they are talented but because they have built their learning skills to the level where these pieces can be easily done.

I think there's a little misunderstanding in goals. If you take your top students and sum up all the years they spent on learning piano in order just to learn Fantasie and the guy who did it in just 3 months. Well, who's inefficient now.

Ah, sorry, outin, I've just read you reply later

[outin]

I can concur, with the correct tools you can learn this in a week.

So may I ask how long would you estimate it takes for an average student to gather enough of those tools to be able to do that? It seems to me several people here want to completely ignore this relevant question...