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Topic: eighth notes and triplets in the same hand  (Read 1872 times)

Offline itsnanoguys

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eighth notes and triplets in the same hand
on: August 30, 2016, 06:50:03 AM
I'm trying to learn Faure's nocturne in A flat major and I also just picked up Scriabin's Romance for horn/cello and piano. Both have polyrhythms in one hand and I can play it really slow but it isn't seamless like you hear professionals play it. There's also a dotted eighth and a sixteenth note in the left hand but that isn't much of a problem. besides playing it really slow does anyone have tips? it would be much appreciated

Offline marijn1999

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Re: eighth notes and triplets in the same hand
Reply #1 on: August 30, 2016, 08:35:05 AM
Learn both the rhythms seperately first, and when you mastered both of them you should bring them together note by note.
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Offline quantum

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Re: eighth notes and triplets in the same hand
Reply #2 on: August 30, 2016, 09:41:41 AM
Play the polyrhythms divided by both hands to hear what is going on.  

In the case of the Faure Nocturne where the middle voice is syncopated quarters, practice by pulsing in eighth notes (play two eighths when you have a quarter, similarly replace longer values with eighths, and play tied notes), also play a note where you have rests.  You do this in order to hear the underlying rhythmic grid.  Gradually restore rhythmic values to those as written.  

Also since the Nocturne contains polyrhythm passages in 3 voices, practice all permutations of 2 voice combinations.  That is: 1+2, 2+3, and 1+3.  Do this before you combine all the voices.  Apply this procedure to the rhythmic grid exercise above.  


Another thing to practice is the rhythm as written, removing all pitch values.  You can tap, clap, stomp, beat drums, or use fingers on a closed fallboard or desk surface.  
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Offline visitor

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Re: eighth notes and triplets in the same hand
Reply #3 on: August 30, 2016, 12:23:24 PM
+1 to previous, i played w the Scriabin horn/piano piece a few years ago and i found it was just something I needed to 'grind through' slowly until the coordination and sound got ingrained in me.

on a somewhat related not, that Scriabin is a  beautiful and under appreciated work, I learned it in hopes I could find and or even pay a horn player to learn the solo wind part so we could put it together but the there wasn't really a strong enough horn player in my school at the time that could take on an extra project on top of all the lit they had for studio and orchestra/wind ensemble....

as an aside, you might like this piece too, another one i would learn and then try to seek out a wind player to put it together with. this thing is one of the coolest trombone pieces I know and the piano part is super groovy

Offline dcstudio

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Re: eighth notes and triplets in the same hand
Reply #4 on: August 30, 2016, 04:33:16 PM
In order for it to be a polyrhythm the conflicting rhythms must be played simultaneously what you are referring to is called irrational rhythms

Use a two syllable word for the eighth notes and a three syllable word for triplets or go with the standard 1 and 2 and tr-pl-et way of counting. Do this with a metronome until you understand the difference between the two within the same line.

Forgive me if I sound condescending but that is a very basic concept and you should understand it completely long before you attempt this music.

Offline itsnanoguys

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Re: eighth notes and triplets in the same hand
Reply #5 on: August 30, 2016, 08:18:25 PM
I can play polyrhythms in each hand but the problem is the technique of playing it on one hand and making it seem effortless and not compromising the tonality.

Play the polyrhythms divided by both hands to hear what is going on.  

In the case of the Faure Nocturne where the middle voice is syncopated quarters, practice by pulsing in eighth notes (play two eighths when you have a quarter, similarly replace longer values with eighths, and play tied notes), also play a note where you have rests.  You do this in order to hear the underlying rhythmic grid.  Gradually restore rhythmic values to those as written.  

Also since the Nocturne contains polyrhythm passages in 3 voices, practice all permutations of 2 voice combinations.  That is: 1+2, 2+3, and 1+3.  Do this before you combine all the voices.  Apply this procedure to the rhythmic grid exercise above.  


Another thing to practice is the rhythm as written, removing all pitch values.  You can tap, clap, stomp, beat drums, or use fingers on a closed fallboard or desk surface.  

Thank you for these suggestions, I will play around with voicings. I believe tapping to the rhythms in my right hand alone will help also.


+1 to previous, i played w the Scriabin horn/piano piece a few years ago and i found it was just something I needed to 'grind through' slowly until the coordination and sound got ingrained in me.

on a somewhat related not, that Scriabin is a  beautiful and under appreciated work, I learned it in hopes I could find and or even pay a horn player to learn the solo wind part so we could put it together but the there wasn't really a strong enough horn player in my school at the time that could take on an extra project on top of all the lit they had for studio and orchestra/wind ensemble....

as an aside, you might like this piece too, another one i would learn and then try to seek out a wind player to put it together with. this thing is one of the coolest trombone pieces I know and the piano part is super groovy

I'll have to just grind through the harder measures for a few days. I know! I just discovered the piece but it was played with a cello by Gavriel Lipkind in an album that I picked up called Miniautres and Folk songs because most of the songs I hadn't heard of. Cello is one of my favorite instruments so I want to play it with my cellist friend. It was sort of funny because I thought to myself wow, this is a very romantic and heartwrenching piece.. and I looked at the screen and saw that it was simply title "Romance" I listened to it about a dozen times yesterday. Thanks for the suggestion I'll listen to it right now :)

Offline dcstudio

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Re: eighth notes and triplets in the same hand
Reply #6 on: August 31, 2016, 05:02:10 AM
I can play polyrhythms in each hand but the problem is the technique of  it on one hand and making it seem effortless and not compromising the tonality.



So you can play,triplets in your right hand while at the same playing eighth notes in your left but you can't  understand their value within the same line?
How exactly would that compromise the tonality? '
 

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