Thumb Orientation and tight wrist

[Daniel_piano]

I've a question about thumb orientation and ulnar deviation
It seems to me that sometimes it is impossible to avoid thimb orientation
For example on the down-right illustration of pag. 85 of Thomas Mark book "What Every Pianist Need To Know About The Body" it is showed the way the
wrist should look while playing on the left, and the wrong tight way on the right

The point is that my wrist is never long and easy like on the left illustration, but there's always a certain amount thumb orientation especially when playing at the central part of the keayboard

In fact in the illustration it is showed that to be long and easy and avoid thumb orientation, the forearm should follow the little finger direction as if he albow was
on the left and the hand was in the right, like this /

But I can't bring my albow in front of my abs so actually the hand is on the left
and the elbow is on the right, like this \

When I play on the central part of the keayboard it seems unavoidable to
align the forearm with the thumb, while it seems like impossible to align
the forearm with the little finger because of the forearm direction

This in turn makes thumb orientation unavoidable
I wonder if anyone can give me some suggestion on how to solve this problem

Thanks a lot
Daniel
 

[ehpianist]

Daniel, I have not read the book you are referring to so I cannot answer your question directly.  What is Thumb orientation? I do understand your arm-positioning issues though.  Are you talking about your right hand or your left hand?  If it is the right hand the arm orientaion seems to go against everything I was ever taught and have read about arm and wrist placement over the keys.  As you have noted, it is very uncomfortable to have your elbow jabbed against the abdominal area and that position only cuts off the weight flow from the upper back into the arm, it is an unnatural position for piano playing.  Ideally you want a comfrotable, rounded arm, which is moving out of your body at about a 45 degree angle.  The hand should rest on the keys like it were holding a nice round ball in it: fingers and knuckles gently curved, the thumb resting slightlyon its side with the joint gently bent and the fingertips having contact with the keys neither on the fleshy part nor on the very tip where the nail is but between the two.

You can try this on a table.  With all five fingers resting on the table as discussed abouve you then gently and slowly rotate your wristall the way around.  None of the ingers should leave the table and the knuckles and joints should remainflexible and curved like there is still a ball inside your hand.  Then try doing the same wrist movement while resting on each of the five fingers. The wrist rotation has the forearm create a slight circle and although the elbow is not moving like crazy it does follow along.  You should see your whole arm movign from the shoulder to the wrist, less movement at the top and more at the wrist but it all follows naturally.

This supple feeling is what you need to feel to maintain a flexible wrist while playing.

Elena
https://www.pianofourhands.com

[Daniel_piano]

Thanks for your answer Elena, I'll try what you suggested me
I was talking about right hand
Anyway (I think it is not just a too big issue if I post a copyrighted image) thumb orientation is alignment of the forearm with the thumb so that the forearm moves around the thumb axis therefore the movements occur at the ulna
But the ulna is supposed to be stationary since the movements must occur at the radius and for this to happen the forearm must be aligned with the little finger
Thumb orientation or twisting is one of the major cause of tendonitis and carpal tunnel syndrome and results in stressful performance



The image on the left rapresent natural alignment of the forearm with the little finger, the image on the right rapresents thumb orientation and forearm alignment with the thumb (suppesodly bad position)

Thumb orientation should be avoided if one want to avoid pain and CTS
But as I said while I can align my forearm with the little finger when I'm playing on keyboard extremites, I can't align my forearm with the little finger when I play on the central part of the keyboard, because to align the forearm with the little finger while playing on the central part of the keyboard I would need to bring my albow in front of my abdominal area

Daniel

[xvimbi]

Thumb orientation should be avoided if one want to avoid pain and CTS
But as I said while I can align my forearm with the little finger when I'm playing on keyboard extremites, I can't align my forearm with the little finger when I play on the central part of the keyboard, because to align the forearm with the little finger while playing on the central part of the keyboard I would need to bring my albow in front of my abdominal area

There are three possible solutions to that problem.

1. When you need to play in the middle of the keybord, pivot to the left or right (depending) to allow the arm to be perpendicular to the keyboard. If both hands have to play in the middle, lean back a bit to give your elbows more room in front of your body. This straightens out the arms a bit and thus will reduce thumb orientation.

2. Accept the thumb orientation. Sounds strange, but "wrong" movements are bad only when they are done repeatedly over a long period of time. The occasional deviation from a well-balanced cenetered position will not do a lot of harm, particularly if the deviation is not that huge in the first place.

3. You can avoid thumb orientation by playing at an angle. Taubman says: "You can be at an angle with the instrument, but you should never be at an angle with yourself." This means the forearm does not have to be perpendicular to the keyboard at all times. In fact, when playing at the extremes, one cannot keep the forearms perpendicular. Granted, when having the forearm at an angle while playing in the middle, the thumb will be even further removed from the keys, but depending on the passage this may well be acceptable.

[richard w]

Daniel, I ordered my copy of this book a few days ago. I've got a bit of a wait (up to two weeks) as I was seduced by the cheaper price of a USA-based supplier, rather than a fast delivery time from a local supplier. Have you found it to be a good book so far?

[ehpianist]

I see what you mean now.  Yes, the picture on the left is the correct position, and it can be achieved by keeping your elbow at a comfortable distance from your body.  Doing this with your fingers gently poised over the keyboard or table (as I explainedi n my last post) and your elbow comfortably rounded, move your wrist left and right and up and down and see how your thumb reacts to the different placements.  I'm sure you'll have no problem seeing its correct position, where it is even in the middle of the hand balance.

Regarding the positioning when right in front of your body, xvimbi gave great advice.

Elena
https://www.pianofourhands.com

[xvimbi]

Daniel, I ordered my copy of this book a few days ago. I've got a bit of a wait (up to two weeks) as I was seduced by the cheaper price of a USA-based supplier, rather than a fast delivery time from a local supplier. Have you found it to be a good book so far?

I was promoting this book a long time ago (I don't have anything to do with the author), and I am happy that more and more people look into it. I think it's one of those fundamental books that every pianist should own, even before any book on theory. There is an accompanying video that helps clarify some of the concepts. I look at it as a book not so much on piano playing, but on how the body works in general. After all, healthy piano playing cannot be achieved if one can't stand, sit, lift things, well, LIVE in a healthy way (I am just talking about posture and movements here, not food!).

[Daniel_piano]

There are three possible solutions to that problem.

1. When you need to play in the middle of the keybord, pivot to the left or right (depending) to allow the arm to be perpendicular to the keyboard. If both hands have to play in the middle, lean back a bit to give your elbows more room in front of your body. This straightens out the arms a bit and thus will reduce thumb orientation.

Do you mean like moving the whole tronco to the right or to the left ?

2. Accept the thumb orientation. Sounds strange, but "wrong" movements are bad only when they are done repeatedly over a long period of time. The occasional deviation from a well-balanced cenetered position will not do a lot of harm, particularly if the deviation is not that huge in the first place.

I understand this
But I'm not only worried about injurying the hand, the point is that a lot of passage are impossible to play at speed with thumb orientation, because fingers don't move so fast as in little finger orientation

3. You can avoid thumb orientation by playing at an angle. Taubman says: "You can be at an angle with the instrument, but you should never be at an angle with yourself." This means the forearm does not have to be perpendicular to the keyboard at all times. In fact, when playing at the extremes, one cannot keep the forearms perpendicular. Granted, when having the forearm at an angle while playing in the middle, the thumb will be even further removed from the keys, but depending on the passage this may well be acceptable.

Sorry, it's my english fault but I don't follow you
What do you mean by "at an angle" do you like my whole right arm is in this position: \    this my albow is a bit raised and far away from the center of the body?

Anyway I tried to apply a little finger orientation to all that old passages I played with a thumb orientation but I wasn't able to
For example there's this passage right hand on a 4/4 bar where all notes are demisemiquavers at the speed of crotchet = 100 and it goes like E (above the middle C) - G - C (above the middle C) - D - C - G - E - G
Anytime I try to play this passage my hand is aligned with the thumb in a perfectly straight line, aligning it with my litte finger is almost impossible, either the elbow is in front of my abs or the thumb is out of the keyboard

Thanks
Daniel

[Daniel_piano]

I see what you mean now.  Yes, the picture on the left is the correct position, and it can be achieved by keeping your elbow at a comfortable distance from your body. 

Do you mean my elbow should be far from my body side or near my body side ?

and your elbow comfortably rounded,

Sorry, my english. What do you mean by "the elbow confortably rounded" ?

Thanks for your help
Daniel

[xvimbi]

Do you mean like moving the whole tronco to the right or to the left ?

That would be one way, but no, I meant the torso is supposed to be pivoting around the "sitting bones" slightly to the left or right (like you would do if you were swaying to the music at the Munich Oktoberfest). Don't move the whole torso by sliding on the bench.

Sorry, it's my english fault but I don't follow you
What do you mean by "at an angle" do you like my whole right arm is in this position: \    this my albow is a bit raised and far away from the center of the body?

Yes. Say, you are sitting in the middle and you have to play in the far treble. If you do not pivot your torso, you will have to extend your arm to reach this area. The arm will then be at an angle with the instrument (about 45 degrees). Keep the hand aligned with the arm and play this way, rather than rotating your hand so that the fingers are parallel to the keys.

Anyway I tried to apply a little finger orientation to all that old passages I played with a thumb orientation but I wasn't able to
For example there's this passage right hand on a 4/4 bar where all notes are demisemiquavers at the speed of crotchet = 100 and it goes like E (above the middle C) - G - C (above the middle C) - D - C - G - E - G
Anytime I try to play this passage my hand is aligned with the thumb in a perfectly straight line, aligning it with my litte finger is almost impossible, either the elbow is in front of my abs or the thumb is out of the keyboard

In order to resolve this, you have to move the hand in and out of the keyboard. For example, when playing the simple pentatonic scale CDEFG, the hand has to move in and out of the keyboard in order to place the individual fingertips roughly in the middle of the white portion of the keys while not destroying the natural curve of the fingers and while avoiding radial or ulnar deviations. You see, one way to get the thumb to play the C is to do a radial deviation, but you can also simply move than hand in, so no deviation will be necessary. Then, when you are going to play D with finger 2, you move out again, and so on. All this works at any speed, but requires a lot of practice. Always imagine where you want to hit the key. Then, while maintaining the alignment of the hand with the forearm and maintaining proper curvature of the fingers, constantly move the whole forearm so that the fingertips end up where they have to be.

This is very well explained and demonstrated in the Taubman videos. They are very expensive, so get your University to buy them if they don't have them already. I think it's required material. Before your Music Library is going to acquire Lang Lang's latest records, make them buy something useful 

[Daniel_piano]

In order to resolve this, you have to move the hand in and out of the keyboard. For example, when playing the simple pentatonic scale CDEFG, the hand has to move in and out of the keyboard in order to place the individual fingertips roughly in the middle of the white portion of the keys while not destroying the natural curve of the fingers and while avoiding radial or ulnar deviations. You see, one way to get the thumb to play the C is to do a radial deviation, but you can also simply move than hand in, so no deviation will be necessary. Then, when you are going to play D with finger 2, you move out again, and so on. All this works at any speed, but requires a lot of practice. Always imagine where you want to hit the key. Then, while maintaining the alignment of the hand with the forearm and maintaining proper curvature of the fingers, constantly move the whole forearm so that the fingertips end up where they have to be.

I'm sure if I have understood this but is that like saying that (using the CDEFG example) when I play the C with the thumb I'm near the black keys and then when playing the D with the index the finger is more distant from the black keys?

Like saying that when you play the C with the thumb with no deviation the other fingers are almost touching black keys while when I play the D with the index the thumb is almost out of the keyboard ?

Is the movement in and the movement out like the one in this image?
(as you can see when the thumb is in the other fingers touch the black keys)

This is very well explained and demonstrated in the Taubman videos. They are very expensive, so get your University to buy them if they don't have them already. I think it's required material. Before your Music Library is going to acquire Lang Lang's latest records, make them buy something useful 

I'll try to get them buy the Taubman videos
The problem is that italians are extremely illiterate in any other language including english, so I don't know if they will buy those expensive videos if no one, except me,  in the school can't understand them in the first place

Thanks for your help

Daniel

[Daniel_piano]

Another thing:
what do you think is the better way to avoid chronic thumb orientation and ulnar deviation amond the one your suggested

1) Deviating toward the ulna while using the thumb and quickly re-aligning the forearm  with the little finger

2) Moving in an out of the keyboard to place each finger in the center of the white key

3) Playing at an angle

4) Lean back to give more room in front of the body

What is the better system and the one your think is the most practical ?

Daniel

[xvimbi]

Like saying that when you play the C with the thumb with no deviation the other fingers are almost touching black keys while when I play the D with the index the thumb is almost out of the keyboard ?

Yes. There is one thing that Taubman stresses: when the hand is moved out so that the thumb is actually out of the keyboard, it should not be allowed to fall below the keys. One should keep it level and close to finger 2. If the thumb falls below the keyboard, it directs some of the forces that run through the hand towards the ground, which affects all the other fingers in the hand. This is similar to playing with a low wrist. That makes sense to me. The thumb should also not be tucked under the palm or even press against the palm in the erronous belief that it would stabilize the hand and support the other fingers, particularly finger 5. In case you are wondering, there people who teach it this way.

[xvimbi]

Another thing:
what do you think is the better way to avoid chronic thumb orientation and ulnar deviation amond the one your suggested

1) Deviating toward the ulna while using the thumb and quickly re-aligning the forearm  with the little finger

2) Moving in an out of the keyboard to place each finger in the center of the white key

3) Playing at an angle

4) Lean back to give more room in front of the body

What is the better system and the one your think is the most practical ?

Daniel

The best system is a combination of all those aspects, depending on the passage in question. I'm sorry, but I think there is no single solution to the problem of hand deviations.

[Daniel_piano]

Look at this image:



Isn't Taubman here twisting and playing with ulnar deviation/thumb orientation ??!!
Anytime I play with such forearm alignment with the thumb I feel pain

Thanks again for your help

Daniel

[bernhard]

Look at this image:



Isn't Taubman here twisting and playing with ulnar deviation/thumb orientation ??!!
Anytime I play with such forearm alignment with the thumb I feel pain

Thanks again for your help

Daniel

xvimbi has already said (very well) everything that I would like to say about this topic.

In regards to the photo – and to repeat something xvimbi said before – there is nothing wrong with ulnar deviation as long it is done fleetingly and momentarily. In fact there is no other way to play certain passages. This is a picture, an instant frozen in time. The camera may just have caught such a fleeting moment when ulnar deviation (and a very low degree of it) was necessary and maybe even appropriate.

What should be avoided is a playing position where ulnar deviation becomes the constant, basic position.

I once had a student who had very large hands. He had been fooling around at the piano for a couple of years before he decided to take lessons. During this time he had develop the habit of playing octaves with his thumb and index finger. The result was that his left hand was constantly in ulnar deviation. Since he mostly fooled around in the piano, and did not “practise” in any consistent or intensive way, his bad positional habit did not result in any injury or even pain. So when I told him in no uncertain terms that he would have to start using his little finger in octaves (an idea he abhorred, since now he felt very comfortable in his usual bad position and saw no reason to change it) he was dismayed. No amount of anatomical diagrams and scary injury stories – or even pointing out that the position he indulged in was detrimental to musical ends would convince him. So every lesson was a constant struggle and endless argument. A very weary situation to say the least.

Best wishes.
Bernhard.