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Remembering the great Maurizio Pollini
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Topic: Broad Discussion and Example Recording - Chopin Etude Op. 25, No 12 in C minor  (Read 5401 times)

Offline darkpisces

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I've been practicing this dearly beloved piece of mine off-and-on for about a year now and wanted to get some thoughts on my tempo as of now in a short example recording for anyone interested.

Semi-Off Topic Note:
I hear very few great pianists able to play this piece at 160bpm marked by Chopin himself, actually it is much more likely that I find a very well played Winter Wind Etude than I do an Ocean Etude at 160bpm. That is why I deem the piece one of the more difficult Etudes, and I have noticed something, the people who underestimate it's difficulty all share one thing in common... They can't play this piece close to 160bpm... Some people I came across who underestimated the piece actually think 160bpm meant playing in a cut half speed of 80bpm and never thought otherwise because they unconsciously thought ''There's no way it meant 160bpm at double time, that's impossible''. And the latter people either can't play it well and if they can, they max out at the most around 100bpm and cannot go any further but seem to define the piece by the tempo they can manage and that doesn't make any sense to me. Also, it is not just a matter of tempo. Not only is the tempo ridiculous but the more tempo you throw at it, the more intensive the technique required and believe me, this Etude at 160bpm easily puts this among one of the most difficult of his Etudes, but once again, for some reason people clothe this Etude with around 100bpm and then define it's difficulty by that. What do you think?

Anyway, I am pretty close to 160bpm and sometimes actually cap out at this tempo in my quick short bursts of playing but I couldn't stay in 160bpm for very long at all without falling apart nor would that be musically expressive enough for the melody to soar. I guess I am talking about the piece at it's default written state which is this tempo, and of course I would like to be able to do that even just for technical reasons because it's certainly not so much for musical reasons. Playing this piece anywhere close to it's original tempo markings while maintaining emotional expression is extremely difficult, it is a joining of the two dualities, technicality and emotionality. There would need to be a great inherent emotional nature in order to play this emotionally at tempos after at least 130 + and I hope I have met with a sweet spot. I have many ways of playing the piece and accentuating particular melody notes but this is just one take and I hope it's good enough. thank you for your time.


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Offline stevensk

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Hi! Great, but its so short and lots of rubato so its hard to determine what tempo we have here. Post a little longer example (do you play it on a cembalo?  ;D) -Anyway, good job!

Offline darkpisces

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Hi! Great, but its so short and lots of rubato so its hard to determine what tempo we have here. Post a little longer example (do you play it on a cembalo?  ;D) -Anyway, good job!

Hello, thanks. I thought it would be best if I posted a short example because I felt like I was asking for too much otherwise. Yes there is lots of rubato but the arpeggios in between the melody are of a consistent tempo radius of eachother and I actually just checked my recording with a metronome and it is literally about 150bpm on the arpeggios with the exception of the intentional rubato on the melody parts. I guess the question isn't really about what my exact tempo marking is because I already checked with the built in metronome on the piano a bunch of times, It's more about a question of, is it virtuosically potentially good enough? A broad and subjective question but it's up for answers really, I love immersing into the piece in all ways

I'm playing on my high-end digital Yamaha piano.

Offline dogperson

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I would agree that you might want to re-think the rubato in the arpeggios--- for me, it gives the impression of faltering in the rhythm, rather than just a subtle effect.  The end result is that I lost the feeling of speed.

 Could you maybe post it without the rubato so that we get a real sense of the tempo?  It would be really helpful and would be a different perspective for you to hear, as well. 

Offline darkpisces

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I would agree that you might want to re-think the rubato in the arpeggios--- for me, it gives the impression of faltering in the rhythm, rather than just a subtle effect.  The end result is that I lost the feeling of speed.

 Could you maybe post it without the rubato so that we get a real sense of the tempo?  It would be really helpful and would be a different perspective for you to hear, as well.  

There is no rubato in the arpeggios, the very first arpeggio is an exception. People like to dive right into that final section with no rubato but I personally feel the need to make the final statement really announce itself, especially since this is the third and final chorus and the first two I already played with not very much rubato leading into them. The arpeggios within the chorus in my recording have no rubato, only the melody points between each arpeggio, which I intentionally did so that the melody could sing. But every arpeggio within that chorus is about 150bpm, strictly. The melody doesn't get to sing and soar in my personal expressive opinion if I play it at the tempo that I am playing the arpeggios. But I can make another recording where I am playing even the melody at 150bpm with the arpeggios although, you are talking about the arpeggios having rubato when they don't so I am unsure.. I also greatly admire Cziffra and Sokolov's playing in this piece, they take moments of rubato within the melody but the arpeggios are rapid, and have the most intense interpretations ever recorded, I would never take the moments of thoughtful rubato from theirs, they play it best, and I apply those in my own interpretation as it's something I personally feel too. but once again, please listen to the arpeggios after the chorus begins, there is no rubato, (melody sections excluded)

Offline dogperson

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There is no rubato in the arpeggios, the very first arpeggio is an exception. People like to dive right into that final section with no rubato but I personally feel the need to make the final statement really announce itself, especially since this is the third and final chorus and the first two I already played with not very much rubato leading into them. The arpeggios within the chorus in my recording have no rubato, only the melody points between each arpeggio, which I intentionally did so that the melody could sing. But every arpeggio within that chorus is about 150bpm, strictly. The melody doesn't get to sing and soar in my personal expressive opinion if I play it at the tempo that I am playing the arpeggios. But I can make another recording where I am playing even the melody at 150bpm with the arpeggios although, you are talking about the arpeggios having rubato when they don't so I am unsure.. I also greatly admire Cziffra and Sokolov's playing in this piece, they take moments of rubato within the melody but the arpeggios are rapid, and have the most intense interpretations ever recorded, I would never take the moments of thoughtful rubato from theirs, they play it best, and I apply those in my own interpretation as it's something I personally feel too. but once again, please listen to the arpeggios after the chorus begins, there is no rubato, (melody sections excluded)

Sorry for not being clear--  but to my ears, adding the rubato to the melody makes it appear there is uneven tempi.  If you are happy with this effect, don't worry.. just wanted to offer a suggestion to record a different way to see what results you get and whether it would be pleasing to you.

Offline darkpisces

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Sorry for not being clear--  but to my ears, adding the rubato to the melody makes it appear there is uneven tempi.  If you are happy with this effect, don't worry.. just wanted to offer a suggestion to record a different way to see what results you get and whether it would be pleasing to you.

I see.. Well I actually avoid playing the melody with no rubato because at such speeds it simply doesn't get to sing.. It actually turns out my recording is almost at about 178bpm which is even faster than Chopin's marking and I am completely shocked.. All this time I never dared to think I could touch 160bpm but it turns out I'm almost capping out at 180 bpm in those arpeggios, which must mean Sokolov is going to about 190-200bpm then.. Wow... I will try to get a recording for you with no rubato what-so-ever at 160bpm.. Eventually.. I need a break

Offline darkpisces

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Okay, here is an edited version of my recording, I cut out the melody parts so that the arpeggios are closer chained together so you can kind of get the tempo, which turned out to be between 178bpm and 185bpm

Offline outin

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Self-teaching I assume? I think you may need to rethink what you focus on and what's relevant.

Hi, I spent about a month in totality learning this etude and I can play it now but I've hit the stage where I have everything but I just need to polish it up. Although there will always be room to improve, I just mean playing it on a very decent level.

You've had some time to polish it now. Maybe post a recording of the whole piece in a tempo you are comfortable with? Most people are interested in how well you play a piece, not on what exact metronome marking you are at.

Offline darkpisces

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Self-teaching I assume? I think you may need to rethink what you focus on and what's relevant.

You've had some time to polish it now. Maybe post a recording of the whole piece in a tempo you are comfortable with? Most people are interested in how well you play a piece, not on what exact metronome marking you are at.

Entirely self taught with all my instruments and my singing and have always loved and needed to play the piano my whole life, but very unfortunately was only able to get a piano in February 2014 and have officially started playing since that month. I already know my metronome markings, it is not the point of the post. The point is joining the expression and emotion with the virtuosity that this Etude holds. It is extremely difficult to play the Etude in this way and very few great pianists seem to be to tap into that. Most notibly Sokolov, absolutely rapid and blinding speed, his arpeggios sound like whips almost, yet there is absolutely no sacrifice of emotion and expression, he clearly has both the opposite worlds in his nature. And my goal is to harness that potential inside of me and create that dream-state atmosphere instead of just playing another decent Ocean Etude like the next person, that is my fear, but to enter that sort of otherwordly caliber such as Sokolov can.

Almost a year of learning the piece, practicing it, polishing it is simply not enough, especially when I haven't played for much more than 2 years, these things take years and years and even a lifetime to develop into a virtuoso level. One year is nothing in piano years, and this post was to simply give an example of how it's going so far, there are other sections in this piece that others would label as fine but I have always had terminal perfectionism and it's not perfect enough for me yet, and those sections won't budge no matter what I do, they simply need more time and then eventually I will record the whole thing. I only started to work on the piece a few days ago after a break and weeks of working on other pieces

Offline anamnesis

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Do you understand where the long melodic line actually lies in this piece?

Are you at the point where your torso and hips embody and coordinate the large form, and rhythmic horizontal progression of the piece?

Do you notice how the parallel directions in the score actually require the arms to be balancing each other out in opposite directions?   

Offline darkpisces

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Do you understand where the long melodic line actually lies in this piece?

Are you at the point where your torso and hips embody and coordinate the large form, and rhythmic horizontal progression of the piece?

Do you notice how the parallel directions in the score actually require the arms to be balancing each other out in opposite directions?  

Yes, it is a swaying motion of the body and not to toot any horns but what you hear in the recording is even faster than Chopin's marking and that is obviously not possible without mastering the motions. In my short year of practicing it, I have practiced it in many different angles and know the piece inside out. The melody is actually reversible, and there is even a secret melody underneath. I know the melodies inside out and have so many ways I can play the melody and actually have trouble deciding on which way to play it, this recording was spur of the moment and was one take.. I have over 20 ways I can play the melody lines.

Offline visitor

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you need to slow the piece down. a lot. then slow it down some more. you should be working at a tempo where you can play it accurately , with control, with contouring of the arpeggio swells (dynamically for example, since you need to very your volume up and down the keyboard due to the difference in volume and resonant  qualities of the shorter strings and lower register longer stings).

since you are stating you need it perfect then any tempo where you can not play it perfectly 5 or times in a row is too fast.  otherwise you're just reinforcing inefficient motor patterns and you'll get better and better at your mistakes.

so i would.
1. eliminate pedal completely
2. work to voice and phrase the melody and  at a consistent tempo, eliminate rubato etc, add it back later in final phases prep
3. work to voice and vary the arpeggios
4. only increase tempo incrementally when you can consistently execute the above at the standard you aim for.
5. you may need to set the piece down for a month or two or more , play it periodically and work on exercises or variations on the piece that shore up your technical apparatus and help you develop better concept of rhythm, melodic shaping, etc.
6. come back to the piece for a bout a week or 2 after an extended break and see if you have improvement, if not, consider taking a another break, could be shorter, same length, or longer. I've come back to a piece after 1yr+ and found issues had 'resolved themselves', the brain seems to be able to subconsciously work on and sort some issues out over time and you're more ready for the piece later on.

have fun with the piece, there are ways to re arrangeme the harmonies and patterns to play around and still work on some of the issues noted above.

for example


the above are just a couple examples that you can play with in the 'breaks' from the piece.  :) 8)

I would also

Offline anamnesis

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Yes, it is a swaying motion of the body and not to toot any horns but what you hear in the recording is even faster than Chopin's marking and that is obviously not possible without mastering the motions. In my short year of practicing it, I have practiced it in many different angles and know the piece inside out. The melody is actually reversible, and there is even a secret melody underneath. I know the melodies inside out and have so many ways I can play the melody and actually have trouble deciding on which way to play it, this recording was spur of the moment and was one take.. I have over 20 ways I can play the melody lines.

There's also a slow progression melody made from the first note of each of the arpeggios.  It's to this slower progression that you coordinate any of the faster melodies to keep them under a consistent and coherent control. 

Offline darkpisces

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There's also a slow progression melody made from the first note of each of the arpeggios.  It's to this slower progression that you coordinate any of the faster melodies to keep them under a consistent and coherent control. 

Yes, and I find more and more hidden secrets within this Etude as time goes on, I have never seen such a uniquely distinguishable yet subliminally pliable piece. There is so much underneath the surface, like an Ocean, and that is without the wave like cascades already. 

Offline louispodesta

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I've been practicing this dearly beloved piece of mine off-and-on for about a year now and wanted to get some thoughts on my tempo as of now in a short example recording for anyone interested.

Semi-Off Topic Note:
I hear very few great pianists able to play this piece at 160bpm marked by Chopin himself, actually it is much more likely that I find a very well played Winter Wind Etude than I do an Ocean Etude at 160bpm. That is why I deem the piece one of the more difficult Etudes, and I have noticed something, the people who underestimate it's difficulty all share one thing in common... They can't play this piece close to 160bpm... Some people I came across who underestimated the piece actually think 160bpm meant playing in a cut half speed of 80bpm and never thought otherwise because they unconsciously thought ''There's no way it meant 160bpm at double time, that's impossible''. And the latter people either can't play it well and if they can, they max out at the most around 100bpm and cannot go any further but seem to define the piece by the tempo they can manage and that doesn't make any sense to me. Also, it is not just a matter of tempo. Not only is the tempo ridiculous but the more tempo you throw at it, the more intensive the technique required and believe me, this Etude at 160bpm easily puts this among one of the most difficult of his Etudes, but once again, for some reason people clothe this Etude with around 100bpm and then define it's difficulty by that. What do you think?

Anyway, I am pretty close to 160bpm and sometimes actually cap out at this tempo in my quick short bursts of playing but I couldn't stay in 160bpm for very long at all without falling apart nor would that be musically expressive enough for the melody to soar. I guess I am talking about the piece at it's default written state which is this tempo, and of course I would like to be able to do that even just for technical reasons because it's certainly not so much for musical reasons. Playing this piece anywhere close to it's original tempo markings while maintaining emotional expression is extremely difficult, it is a joining of the two dualities, technicality and emotionality. There would need to be a great inherent emotional nature in order to play this emotionally at tempos after at least 130 + and I hope I have met with a sweet spot. I have many ways of playing the piece and accentuating particular melody notes but this is just one take and I hope it's good enough. thank you for your time.



1)  I am going to do what I always do which is "show and tell," for those of us in America.  That means I am going to list a link to a historic recording, which elucidates somewhat (your interpretation is your own) how the piece was originally performed.  In this particular instance, the performers teacher was a student of Chopin.


2)  Regarding the discussion of rubato, et al, I once again refer those who are interested to my video, whose underlying thesis of original performance practice is arpeggiation (not applicable here), the breaking of the hands (also not applicable), improvisation (?), and most of all tempo modification.

3)  Let us get real here.  There is no way anyone other than a collegue of Chopin, named Franz Liszt, could have played this up to tempo.  And, then let us explore exactly what that means.

4)  More than one applied musicologist has stated that:  until Franz Liszt played (before the Composer) the Etudes in their entirety (the very first time, ever) then Chopin had not attached any metronome markings, accordingly.

Finally, my being very selfish, here is my video link, once again most enthusiastically endorsed by the eminent applied musicologist Dr. Clive Brown of the University of Leeds.  He recently spoke and presented a paper on original performance practice at Indiana University, and will again do the same in Beijing in November.


Additionally, I am desperate to find a good soul with a simple Facebook Page to help me publicize this historical piano news story.  This will help me fund my crowdfunding marketing proposal.

Thanks and please contact me by PM, if you are so inclined.  All I need is your Facebook access.

Offline keypeg

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I already know my metronome markings, it is not the point of the post. The point is joining the expression and emotion with the virtuosity that this Etude holds. It is extremely difficult to play the Etude in this way and very few great pianists seem to be to tap into that. ...
I'm lost right at this point.  Of the various instructions and tips I have received in my studies, "virtuosity" of a piece is one I have never heard of, and would not know how to tap into such virtuosity that a piece might hold.  I am familiar with things like interpretation and expression, and individual things that go into creating such interpretation and expression - holding some notes a bit longer, shifting timing while keeping tempo, stressing certain notes or passages over others dynamically, and similar.  I can't follow the thinking here.

Offline keypeg

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1)  I am going to do what I always do which is "show and tell," for those of us in America.  That means I am going to list a link to a historic recording, which elucidates somewhat (your interpretation is your own) how the piece was originally performed.  In this particular instance, the performers teacher was a student of Chopin.

A pleasure to listen to.  Thank you for that.

Offline outin

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I'm lost right at this point.  

My explanation is that the OP is having elaborate discussion with his teacher (himself) about virtuosity and world class pianists' playing of this piece, when after about 2 years of studying piano he should be concentrating on something entirely different. Since most of us are not on the level of world class virtuosity, I doubt we can help him with his ramblings. He got some pretty good practical advice already above, but I don't think that's what he's looking for.

Offline darkpisces

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I'm lost right at this point.  Of the various instructions and tips I have received in my studies, "virtuosity" of a piece is one I have never heard of, and would not know how to tap into such virtuosity that a piece might hold.  I am familiar with things like interpretation and expression, and individual things that go into creating such interpretation and expression - holding some notes a bit longer, shifting timing while keeping tempo, stressing certain notes or passages over others dynamically, and similar.  I can't follow the thinking here.

I am not talking about just playing the piece here, I am talking about what separates merely being able to play it from actual mastery at the Etude. The thing that separates a mere cover on YouTube to truly performing it. 

Offline darkpisces

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My explanation is that the OP is having elaborate discussion with his teacher (himself) about virtuosity and world class pianists' playing of this piece, when after about 2 years of studying piano he should be concentrating on something entirely different. Since most of us are not on the level of world class virtuosity, I doubt we can help him with his ramblings. He got some pretty good practical advice already above, but I don't think that's what he's looking for.

2 years of studying the piano has nothing to do with what I should be working on. But it is what I have accomplished in those 2 years, my pace is clearly different to yours. I have studied for 2 years by myself and I can play one of Chopin's more difficult Etudes somewhat past his own metronome marking yet pianists that have been playing 3-5 times as much as I have cannot play this piece as written but decide to judge the piece by how they can manage it anyway. I have many other pieces within my repertoire also. So I don't really think you are entitled to judge me from a time span considering what I can do despite that time without a teacher. It is only rambling to those who has no grasping idea of what this is about. This is about the difference between playing a piece, and PLAYING a piece. It is also about a broad discussion on this Etude and a question of why do people judge it's difficulty when they cannot play it as written?

Offline outin

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2 years of studying the piano has nothing to do with what I should be working on. But it is what I have accomplished in those 2 years, my pace is clearly different to yours. I have studied for 2 years by myself and I can play one of Chopin's more difficult Etudes somewhat past his own metronome marking yet pianists that have been playing 3-5 times as much as I have cannot play this piece as written but decide to judge the piece by how they can manage it anyway. I have many other pieces within my repertoire also. So I don't really think you are entitled to judge me from a time span considering what I can do despite that time without a teacher. It is only rambling to those who has no grasping idea of what this is about. This is about the difference between playing a piece, and PLAYING a piece. It is also about a broad discussion on this Etude and a question of why do people judge it's difficulty when they cannot play it as written?
What exactly you have accomplished is not apparent from the recordings posted. Tempo is irrelevant if the music is severely lacking. The same goes for world class pianists and newcomers to piano. The former tend to be better at judging what's lacking though...

Offline darkpisces

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...

Offline darkpisces

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Then you clearly haven't read the post. I stated in the first comment I ever made that there needs to be a joining of both worlds, technically and musically, I actually mentioned that a few times. In this Etude, more tempo = more technique required. Tempo is technique here. Playing this at 100bpm is nothing the same as playing it at 130bpm and that is nothing the same as playing it at 160bpm, the technique required intensifies.

Being able to emphasize the melody despite the tempo is where mastery at this piece lies. If you can only sing out the melody slower and cannot play to tempo, or if you cannot sing out the melody when playing to the fast tempo, then this is what lacking is. I am talking about being able to play it to tempo, WHILE the music is not sacrificed in any way. People even said the rubato I am taking is throwing them off and they can't wrap their heads around the tempo, it actually surprises me, because if I didn't take any time or have use of any rubato, the melody would be so rushed which is why I play with rubato which also proves I am about the music first and tempo second. Also it's not rocket science, the arpeggios are about 178bpm but I take time on melody for it to sing. Yet you are giving the whole typical ''tempo is irrelevant'' beeswax when I am the one emphasizing the importance of the melody with that rubato, please read posts first, I went much deeper than you obviously assume

Offline outin

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I read your post, but it makes little sense to me. You ask I your tempo is quick enough when you should be asking whether your playing is good enough for the tempo you have chosen.

Offline darkpisces

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Re: Broad Discussion - Chopin Etude Op. 25, No 12 in C minor
Reply #25 on: September 09, 2016, 09:59:16 AM
I read your post, but it makes little sense to me. You ask I your tempo is quick enough when you should be asking whether your playing is good enough for the tempo you have chosen.

The title was written when that was my question and before I put a metronome to my playing. I didn't think I was at 160bpm, I remember trying to play against 160bpm half a year ago just to see what the original marking is like and it was so terrifyingly fast that until I wrote this post I didn't think I was at or past 160. I truly thought that I was about 150 when I made this post, it was throughout this post that I found out I am actually nearly 180bpm in the arpeggios. And of course, successfully playing the arpeggios at that tempo is not just a matter of tempo, it requires a very entrenched technique to be able to touch that tempo successfully. I will change the title as it is no longer the discussion.

Offline keypeg

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I am not talking about just playing the piece here, I am talking about what separates merely being able to play it from actual mastery at the Etude. The thing that separates a mere cover on YouTube to truly performing it. 
I see.  So you are not talking about "virtuosity" of a piece, but of the playing.  This word "virtuosity" has  a problem that you may not be aware of. ;)  On the one hand there is something you might called artistry, where a musician draws things out of the music, and he employs all his understanding and craftmanship to do this.  "Virtuosic" playing most often means somebody plays music which is hard to play because of how fast it is, how difficult for hands to stretch and such - something more akin to musical athleticism. I remember reading about the era where musicians such as Paganini flourished, and how in some quarters he was looked upon with disdain rather than admiration.  Though I am sure that Paganini also played artistically. The piece you're featuring might often be approached in a "virtuosic" way - i.e. all those difficult notes played fast and athletically. That is not what you are after.  I think you're after the artistic playing.
If I'm right about that goal, this is something that I am after too.  I work with a teacher.  When I was a child I was self-taught, and picked up a lot of things intuitively as I have that kind of instinct.  I did not have a piano for 35 years, and restarted again a few years ago. We are choosing simpler pieces for the most part in order to get at the tools - a simple piece can actually be more challenging to make expressive and "artistic" because the bare bones are there undisguised by any flourish of notes, and you have to pour all your skills into the few notes that are there.
To get at that kind of goal, you need to develop the physical skills, as well as underlying understanding so that you know what kinds of things to play with in order to create your own interpretation - your ear develops along with this - and there is some degree of what is "inside" you as well. On your own you might listen to Sokolov or whoever, and painstakingly imitate every nuance that he makes for smaller passages, and it might have somewhat an impression of artistic playing (I'm using that word rather the "virtuosic") but something will be missing.  When you have gained some understanding and skills, then you will start to hear why these pianists made the choices they made, what is inside the music, and this will also lead you toward your interpretation.
Some snippets from my own journey the past few years - in case this gives any ideas - I had a lyrical way of playing since I also sing, but was weak in underlying pulse, and also could not hear this.  Going after underlying pulse created a necessary metronomic stage, which when loosened up gave something improved. Metronomic may be the wrong word, because the pulse I was missing came more from measure to measure rather than beat to beat.  2.  The idea of dynamics was not new to me, but the fact that you can create an illusion of dynamics in the RH via the LH opened up new channels.  3. Expressiveness by where you place a note, via a slight delay or extension of its value, but without disturbing the pulse, and also not overdoing it, and also not doing it with the wrong notes. 4. Articulation (legato, staccato and how much, etc.) ... The wonderful pianists you hear use these kinds of things. .... While studying with my teacher, the concept may be clear intellectually, but it might take several tries, where the student thinks he/she has got it, but the teacher will point out that no, you don't have it yet. Through the whole process, your ability to hear and produce grows.
This piece of music is both "virtuosic" and "artistic".  Getting those notes at that speed is the virtuosic part.

Offline darkpisces

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I see.  So you are not talking about "virtuosity" of a piece, but of the playing.  This word "virtuosity" has  a problem that you may not be aware of. ;)  On the one hand there is something you might called artistry, where a musician draws things out of the music, and he employs all his understanding and craftmanship to do this.  "Virtuosic" playing most often means somebody plays music which is hard to play because of how fast it is, how difficult for hands to stretch and such - something more akin to musical athleticism. I remember reading about the era where musicians such as Paganini flourished, and how in some quarters he was looked upon with disdain rather than admiration.  Though I am sure that Paganini also played artistically. The piece you're featuring might often be approached in a "virtuosic" way - i.e. all those difficult notes played fast and athletically. That is not what you are after.  I think you're after the artistic playing.
If I'm right about that goal, this is something that I am after too.  I work with a teacher.  When I was a child I was self-taught, and picked up a lot of things intuitively as I have that kind of instinct.  I did not have a piano for 35 years, and restarted again a few years ago. We are choosing simpler pieces for the most part in order to get at the tools - a simple piece can actually be more challenging to make expressive and "artistic" because the bare bones are there undisguised by any flourish of notes, and you have to pour all your skills into the few notes that are there.
To get at that kind of goal, you need to develop the physical skills, as well as underlying understanding so that you know what kinds of things to play with in order to create your own interpretation - your ear develops along with this - and there is some degree of what is "inside" you as well. On your own you might listen to Sokolov or whoever, and painstakingly imitate every nuance that he makes for smaller passages, and it might have somewhat an impression of artistic playing (I'm using that word rather the "virtuosic") but something will be missing.  When you have gained some understanding and skills, then you will start to hear why these pianists made the choices they made, what is inside the music, and this will also lead you toward your interpretation.
Some snippets from my own journey the past few years - in case this gives any ideas - I had a lyrical way of playing since I also sing, but was weak in underlying pulse, and also could not hear this.  Going after underlying pulse created a necessary metronomic stage, which when loosened up gave something improved. Metronomic may be the wrong word, because the pulse I was missing came more from measure to measure rather than beat to beat.  2.  The idea of dynamics was not new to me, but the fact that you can create an illusion of dynamics in the RH via the LH opened up new channels.  3. Expressiveness by where you place a note, via a slight delay or extension of its value, but without disturbing the pulse, and also not overdoing it, and also not doing it with the wrong notes. 4. Articulation (legato, staccato and how much, etc.) ... The wonderful pianists you hear use these kinds of things. .... While studying with my teacher, the concept may be clear intellectually, but it might take several tries, where the student thinks he/she has got it, but the teacher will point out that no, you don't have it yet. Through the whole process, your ability to hear and produce grows.
This piece of music is both "virtuosic" and "artistic".  Getting those notes at that speed is the virtuosic part.

I say virtuosity because that is what this Etude requires if it is being played as it should be, it requires virtuosity but I am also talking about an artistical means most importantly. That is what I am trying to get at, I am talking about combining those two, the technical means, the virtuosity, meshed together with rich, expressive, musical shaping and emotion and without any sacrifice of the two spectrums for one or the other. I did mention Sokolov because he is prime example of a master at this and love his playing, he is the best but I have never actually tried to copy any nuances of his or spent a moment actually trying to do that. When I heard Sokolov playing it I was immobilized by how he could be so very technically brilliant and proficient yet be so efficient, mindful, thoughtful and sensitive to the upmost at the exact same time. He is one of the only pianists that plays the Etude in this way, at it's complete limits. And I naturally agree with how he plays it because it's how I feel it too. It would be insincere if I went out my way to play it purposely different to him, especially when I naturally gravitate to playing the piece in this way from my own personal feelings which just happens to be similar to how he plays it, only he is beyond brilliant and I'm just trying to teach my physical body to translate everything inside of me. If I never heard Sokolov play it, I would actually be searching to play it in this way anyway, Sokolov just made it a reality. But I love any recording of the Etude, there's so many ways to play it, as I've mention I have over 20 ways to play this piece and have a difficult time really settling on one because I love them all. I do understand if people were to come to agreement that this way of playing it is over the top and would much prefer a less intense, smooth Ocean rather than a full fledged hurricane of an Ocean Etude though. I love the piece to bits and love to listen to any way that it is played but I think that by fact, Sokolov plays it with both technical brilliance to the upmost and emotional sensitivity to the upmost. Maybe it's just too much brilliance for a lot of people though

If people would like to post their short clips of the same final sections as I did playing it with their views, I would love to hear it.

Offline visitor

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I say virtuosity because that is what this Etude requires if it is being played as it should be, it requires virtuosity but I am also talking about an artistical..., the technical means, the virtuosity, ...
um. no. they are not separate elements. they are different parts of a single whole needed to effectively interpret and present a said work, it is independing of the type or style of the work. technical means just that technical, it's descriptor of dexterity, or agility, and control.
virtuosity is the consistent execution of  basic elements at the highest level of refinement combined with uncommon artistry/creativity. virtuosos at the core and most fundamental are 'expert beginners'
for a good example of the above please reference this, it's pretty incredible
ie

bonus virtuosity

Offline darkpisces

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...

Offline darkpisces

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What? Virtuosity can also mean high-skill and technical brilliance alone and can be broken apart from the other elements, yes it can. if someone could play Chopin etudes note perfect but lacks expression emotion and is downright like a computer playing it, they would still be a virtuoso by all means I have heard virtuosos play pieces with absolutely no emotion and it does not all come together. Besides what does that have to do with the post? Nothing but to correct me for an ego boost.

Offline stevensk

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I read your post, but it makes little sense to me. You ask If your tempo is quick enough when you should be asking whether your playing is good enough for the tempo you have chosen.


-I totally agree!  ;)

Offline keypeg

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What? Virtuosity can also mean high-skill and technical brilliance alone and can be broken apart from the other elements, yes it can. if someone could play Chopin etudes note perfect but lacks expression emotion and is downright like a computer playing it, they would still be a virtuoso by all means I have heard virtuosos play pieces with absolutely no emotion and it does not all come together. Besides what does that have to do with the post? Nothing but to correct me for an ego boost.
I made the mistake of taking your seriously and writing out a number of things that might help you.  And you come back quibbling about the meaning of a term, which in itself is unimportant, unless you are trying to talk with a community that might misunderstand what you mean because of the terminology you chose.  At the same time you missed anything that might be meaningful or helpful toward reaching the goals that interest you.

Offline darkpisces

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-I totally agree!  ;)

I also wrote a reply explaining this, I didn't think I was at 160bpm yet and never thought I would be so I wanted to find out if my tempo is good enough since I think I'll never be able to reach 160bpm but then the same day I checked the recording I made with a metronome marking and was actually at 178bpm so that is why the title changed. If you actually read the post and take time instead of make assumptions, you'll see I explained to him why that didn't make sense for a moment.

Offline darkpisces

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I made the mistake of taking your seriously and writing out a number of things that might help you.  And you come back quibbling about the meaning of a term, which in itself is unimportant, unless you are trying to talk with a community that might misunderstand what you mean because of the terminology you chose.  At the same time you missed anything that might be meaningful or helpful toward reaching the goals that interest you.

Might help me? I'm not trying to get tips on anything, you also made the mistake of thinking I am. No, instead you wanted to give me an english lesson on what virtuosity means. So of course I wrote back to it naturally. You can have virtuosity without emotion, Lasitsa is often an example of this in some of the Etudes, computer fast speed yet no emotion. So please, just babble to yourself

Offline stevensk

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I also wrote a reply explaining this, I didn't think I was at 160bpm yet and never thought I would be so I wanted to find out if my tempo is good enough since I think I'll never be able to reach 160bpm but then the same day I checked the recording I made with a metronome marking and was actually at 178bpm so that is why the title changed

-Dont be so occupied by the tempo. You are a good pianist, focus on making good, touching music. Forget speed.

Offline darkpisces

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-Dont be so occupied by the tempo. You are a good pianist, focus on making good, touching music. Forget speed.

Thank you

Offline keypeg

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Might help me? I'm not trying to get tips on anything...
Usually most people like getting new ideas and feedback, especially when they are starting out and don't have a teacher.  I do, and I know advanced musicians who are still open to it.  That is why I assumed you would, since you are teaching yourself and have only been at it for a short time.
Quote
  No, instead you wanted to give me an english lesson on what virtuosity means.
Then you mistook my intent.  Were I to give an English lesson, it would look different, and I generally don't do so.  Instead it was for the purpose of communication because if in a community you use a term in one way, but it tends to be understood in a different way, and again if you are new to it, then it is good to be aware of it.  In the beginning when I read about virtuosity of a piece, I didn't know at all what you meant.  There was a time not that long ago when I had trouble getting things across because I didn't know what people might mean by this and that term, because I started off self-taught.

Offline darkpisces

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Usually most people like getting new ideas and feedback, especially when they are starting out and don't have a teacher.  I do, and I know advanced musicians who are still open to it.  That is why I assumed you would, since you are teaching yourself and have only been at it for a short time.Then you mistook my intent.  Were I to give an English lesson, it would look different, and I generally don't do so.  Instead it was for the purpose of communication because if in a community you use a term in one way, but it tends to be understood in a different way, and again if you are new to it, then it is good to be aware of it.  In the beginning when I read about virtuosity of a piece, I didn't know at all what you meant.  There was a time not that long ago when I had trouble getting things across because I didn't know what people might mean by this and that term, because I started off self-taught.

I understand, but I posted this in the Performance section as opposed to the student's corner which seems to be mostly about advice and tips etc. Maybe it doesn't make sense but I know what I meant and if I were to explain it differently I would have felt like I didn't get across what I was trying to get across. Maybe I did explain it wrong, but I also think there shouldn't be limits in that sort of an explanation, it was something very specific I was trying to get at.

Offline dogperson

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I understand, but I posted this in the Performance section as opposed to the student's corner which seems to be mostly about advice and tips etc. Maybe it doesn't make sense but I know what I meant and if I were to explain it differently I would have felt like I didn't get across what I was trying to get across. Maybe I did explain it wrong, but I also think there shouldn't be limits in that sort of an explanation, it was something very specific I was trying to get at.

Here is your original post 'I've been practicing this dearly beloved piece of mine off-and-on for about a year now and wanted to get some thoughts on my tempo as of now in a short example recording for anyone interested.'

Of course, we all thought you wanted comments on the audio excerpt which were provided.  Quite frankly, if you only wanted to know if you were playing at 160 bpm, you could have just clicked on the metronome.  It seems regrettable that only the tempo is your concern with how you are playing this.. as this has a lot of potential which could be more fully realized.

Offline darkpisces

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Here is your original post 'I've been practicing this dearly beloved piece of mine off-and-on for about a year now and wanted to get some thoughts on my tempo as of now in a short example recording for anyone interested.'

Of course, we all thought you wanted comments on the audio excerpt which were provided.  Quite frankly, if you only wanted to know if you were playing at 160 bpm, you could have just clicked on the metronome.  It seems regrettable that only the tempo is your concern with how you are playing this.. as this has a lot of potential which could be more fully realized.

Yeah, you are right. That was the initial question because I could play the piece at my maximum about 140bpm and a while back, maybe half a year ago I had tried to play the piece to Chopin's marking of 160bpm and was shocked. The metronome was clicking and for a moment I couldn't believe how quickly I had to play, I almost reverted to half time because I couldn't quite wrap my head around the sheer speed of 160bpm in double time instead of playing in half time of 80bpm. I think that playing it at 160 is something like 4 notes a click, and the clicks are very quick. So I attempted and fell apart. I automatically just assumed from that point there is no way I would be playing it like that unless I practice for years and years, either that or I would never be able to. So forward half a year to now and I hadn't checked with the metronome since because I automatically thought, no way. I knew that I have gotten better and I just assumed before I could play to an absolute maximum of 140 on my few better areas, and now I can play about 150 fairly comfortably throughout most of the piece. So I made a post on the tempo, because I love the piece so much, and want to do it justice and thought my tempo was letting it down, so I made this post with an example recording asking is the tempo okay, can I get away with it basically, do I have to play at that insane tempo in order for people to finally see the love and passion and emotion I have with, for and when playing this piece. It was through posting this that decided to check my recordings tempo and was stunned to see my arpeggios are at about 178bpm which is past Chopin's markings. I then went to the piano and had to make sure this was true, I set it to 140, like my maximum used to be, it was pretty darn easy. I set it to 150, I could feel this wasn't my limit anymore, I set it to 160, I felt like I could still go further, I set it to 170 and then to 180 and could pull it off quite well actually, it is fairly comfortable, I just need to work on it a little. I do of course have problematic areas still that I need to work on and are seriously not budging no matter what I do yet are getting better yet kind of aren't yet they are.. Then again, I have only been practicing this piece for about a year and have only been playing for 2 years so I can't really expect perfection of course, instead should be proud of what I have done within no time at all. I might post in the student's corner for advice on those more problematic areas though so if you see that over there, please come along if you wish, I am thankful for it all

Offline outin

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But don't you see that trying to reach a tempo while ignoring other things that need work is just making it less likely that you'll ever get there? If you had a teacher you would work in a different way.

Anyway, I understand that you are proud because you have achieved something that was difficult and took some time. But since advanced pianists who can play such music well look at the whole picture, not just tempo, they most probably won't share your enthusiasm but rather think you are wasting time on nonsense with these elaborate explanations.

I think it might be quite an eye opening for you to go to a good teacher for a lesson. Ever considered it?

Offline darkpisces

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But don't you see that trying to reach a tempo while ignoring other things that need work is just making it less likely that you'll ever get there? If you had a teacher you would work in a different way.

Anyway, I understand that you are proud because you have achieved something that was difficult and took some time. But since advanced pianists who can play such music well look at the whole picture, not just tempo, they most probably won't share your enthusiasm but rather think you are wasting time on nonsense with these elaborate explanations.

I think it might be quite an eye opening for you to go to a good teacher for a lesson. Ever considered it?


(This may be a stupid rambling to you but here).

I was never within the lucky or fortunate, the piano was robbed from me. I never had musical instruments waiting around or a piano waiting around in the house or anywhere and never had access to one like most people do and have. My family do not have a musical bone in their bodies, none of them are even remotely musical and hardly even listen to music. I was born with an inherent love and need for music but I had to chase music, music never came to me.. Music was never available in any way like it is with most people. But I guess, that is what only proves my sincerity even more? Because despite all of this, I followed my heart to music and I play many instruments, I sing and I could simply not be imagined without music. But it is not just a natural inclination towards the piano, it is towards all music and all instruments, but the piano is definitely where my home is. Like I say, it was only until February 2014, something of a miracle happened and I was able to get a piano. That inherent love and need and way overdue meeting of me and the piano is how I accomplished what I did, I was born for this and yes as mentioned, entirely self taught with all of my instruments and singing and I do not have the good fortune and other things that it takes to make lessons a healthy reality as of now. Maybe in future as I would appreciate genuine guidance and direction too. I will say this though, you are quite mistaken. I have not ignored anything else and I had ignored tempo first, I am not here asking about the musical aspects because I have those in place and it's insulting that you are judging me from where you found me as opposed to why I am there. I come from nothing but music first, music second, music third. It was very, very natural for me to dress this piece with my heart and bring out particular melodies, reasons for particular choices I made, like why did I choose a particular voicing, why am I playing it in this way. Those are not my problem, although I would love to talk about that stuff because there is always something to learn, but for the most part it is time for me to erase all technical issues and just PLAY the music as sincerely as I can instead of being held back by things like how my body isn't quite able to translate everything inside of me quite yet with this Etude. My only real problem with the piece is of a technical one, and here, I have had to mention this a third time for you, tempo in this piece IS technique. The faster this piece is played, the more technical brilliance is required. I cannot tell you how different it is to play this Etude at 100 to what it is like playing it at 160, it is galaxies different, everything changes, and not just the tempo, the movements required, the agility, the wrist, the body, the strength, the thinking and everything else just becomes so intensive, it is like a different gravity compared. That being said I would like to discuss musical ideas and such with people, but it is not my ''problem'' here and once again, I have always found it very natural to musically express with my emotions. I have feelings for every choice I make and why I made them, if I accent a particular voice, there's always a heartful reason why I did, not an accidental one as I am an extremely sensitive person and have an immortal and natural need for music and it is simply the voice I was not born with.

Offline keypeg

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Thoughts:
- I think that the forums are more "fluid" than you expect, one thing blending into the next, so that you might find a "student" thing appear in repertoire, a repertoire thing in student, and teacher - student fuzzing at the seams.  If you think about it, it's not that black and white - very advanced players still learn things, teaching and learning are intertwined etc. That is certainly how I have experienced PianoStreet over the years.  That is also why you got feedback over here.
- feedback that tells you what a person thinks you want to hear, takes you less seriously than people taking the time to point out other things.

The rest is a bit more difficult to bring across, since you have not yet had these experiences and may not be able to relate:
Everything in music is intertwined, where one thing affects another thing and a bunch of things.  If you go to an actually good teacher, and one who will bother, you may come in asking about a particular thing that bothers you in your playing, but that teacher might see something totally different. That totally different thing may have a huge bearing on whatever you think you need help with and he'll see that and you won't yet.  It's like you're coming in saying "My eye hurts." and a doctor starts fussing about your shoes, because those shoes, through a chain of things that relate, are causing the eye pain.  The biggest frustration that teachers tell me they have with adult students is that often these students won't allow them to guide them, because they already have it all mapped out.  Being open to other realities, perceptions, and approaches than the ones you know is a huge gift to give yourself, if a gem or two comes your way (it may look like a rock).

Offline darkpisces

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Thoughts:
- I think that the forums are more "fluid" than you expect, one thing blending into the next, so that you might find a "student" thing appear in repertoire, a repertoire thing in student, and teacher - student fuzzing at the seams.  If you think about it, it's not that black and white - very advanced players still learn things, teaching and learning are intertwined etc. That is certainly how I have experienced PianoStreet over the years.  That is also why you got feedback over here.
- feedback that tells you what a person thinks you want to hear, takes you less seriously than people taking the time to point out other things.

The rest is a bit more difficult to bring across, since you have not yet had these experiences and may not be able to relate:
Everything in music is intertwined, where one thing affects another thing and a bunch of things.  If you go to an actually good teacher, and one who will bother, you may come in asking about a particular thing that bothers you in your playing, but that teacher might see something totally different. That totally different thing may have a huge bearing on whatever you think you need help with and he'll see that and you won't yet.  It's like you're coming in saying "My eye hurts." and a doctor starts fussing about your shoes, because those shoes, through a chain of things that relate, are causing the eye pain.  The biggest frustration that teachers tell me they have with adult students is that often these students won't allow them to guide them, because they already have it all mapped out.  Being open to other realities, perceptions, and approaches than the ones you know is a huge gift to give yourself, if a gem or two comes your way (it may look like a rock).

Of course it's entwined, everything is. But people were questioning me on why I wrote this in what felt like an assertive way and I am just trying to say that if I was really digging for practical and technical advice I would have asked, or wrote it in the other section. In fact I know that these communities are full of bursting ego so I thought that I better avoid writing this in the student's corner because people will probably tell me off for writing in the wrong place. I can't really win here.

Offline brogers70

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I don't think that technique is mostly about speed; it's mostly about being able to produce a beautiful sound.  The same facility that you get by concentrating on producing a beautiful sound will also make it easier to play faster, but the point is a beautiful sound. The last thing I think about when I hear a great performance is what the metronome marking would have been.

Offline darkpisces

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I don't think that technique is mostly about speed; it's mostly about being able to produce a beautiful sound.  The same facility that you get by concentrating on producing a beautiful sound will also make it easier to play faster, but the point is a beautiful sound. The last thing I think about when I hear a great performance is what the metronome marking would have been.

You are the only one who put ''technique isn't mostly about speed'' together. I just so happen to be at the final problems with this Etude, which is a technical one and one for tempo. You say that the last thing you think about is metronome marking, yeah. Me too, but guess what? I am up to that last thing now.

Offline jinfiesto

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Soooo, I'm probably late to the party, and also probably feeding a troll, but here are a couple things I've noticed:

Firstly, I don't think that there's a problem with the amount of rubato, but only in it's execution. In my opinion, the OP (and some others) are correct that some rubato helps the melody to sing, especially when the melodic notes are close together. The issue is that the OP slows down abruptly when arriving at melodic notes and then suddenly takes off again at a million miles an hour immediately after the melodic bits are over. If there's going to be rubato, the entire beat structure needs to open up around the points of maximum rubato. That is, if you're going to take time at the first beat of a measure, the fourth beat of the previous measure and the 2nd beat of the current measure need to be a bit fatter than usual.

Also, and I'm surprised no one mentioned this (unless I missed it,) the actual metronome marking is not 160bpm (whatever that means.) It's half note = 80. Now, if you subdivide the beat, you get quarter = 160. This is fundamentally not the same thing. The OP is clearly practicing with the metronome set to the latter, rather than the former. This causes bizarre accents in the arpeggiated figuration.

Finally, as to the talk of when people should be doing what in terms of their learning, a good friend of mine picked up the piano relatively late in life and 2 years in was playing some pretty serious music quite well (Chopin etudes included.) So I'm not entirely convinced time is a hugely relevant factor with sufficient motivation. However, my friend had a good teacher. It's impossible to state how beneficial that is.

Offline darkpisces

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Soooo, I'm probably late to the party, and also probably feeding a troll, but here are a couple things I've noticed:

Firstly, I don't think that there's a problem with the amount of rubato, but only in it's execution. In my opinion, the OP (and some others) are correct that some rubato helps the melody to sing, especially when the melodic notes are close together. The issue is that the OP slows down abruptly when arriving at melodic notes and then suddenly takes off again at a million miles an hour immediately after the melodic bits are over. If there's going to be rubato, the entire beat structure needs to open up around the points of maximum rubato. That is, if you're going to take time at the first beat of a measure, the fourth beat of the previous measure and the 2nd beat of the current measure need to be a bit fatter than usual.

Also, and I'm surprised no one mentioned this (unless I missed it,) the actual metronome marking is not 160bpm (whatever that means.) It's half note = 80. Now, if you subdivide the beat, you get quarter = 160. This is fundamentally not the same thing. The OP is clearly practicing with the metronome set to the latter, rather than the former. This causes bizarre accents in the arpeggiated figuration.

Finally, as to the talk of when people should be doing what in terms of their learning, a good friend of mine picked up the piano relatively late in life and 2 years in was playing some pretty serious music quite well (Chopin etudes included.) So I'm not entirely convinced time is a hugely relevant factor with sufficient motivation. However, my friend had a good teacher. It's impossible to state how beneficial that is.

Feeding a troll? I'm a troll for posting? No, I'm sorry but you are just plain out rude. Wow there are rude elitists on here.

I say 160 instead of 80 because people have gotten mixed up and thought half time instead of double time. I think I know that it's 80, considering I've been looking at the score for about a year. I also do not play to metronome of 160, and I am accenting in the arpeggios the places Chopin marked. So..

It's great that you have advice and an opinion on the rubato but did you know the great Sokolov actually plays it like that as well? Which kind of makes you seem like even more of an elitist for practically bashing on a pianist that nobody is greater then. Also If you read the post I mentioned I have many ways to play this.

Offline jinfiesto

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Hey man, I'm not the one comparing myself to Sokolov lol. FYI, that's not the way Sokolov plays the etude. I have the recording and Sokolov knows better than to abruptly stop on any beat.

Yes, you have secondary rhythmic accents where they are unmarked. Like on each quarter note.

Also, no you're not a troll for posting. You're a troll for being comically bad and being unable to realize it.
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