best way to learn fast/difficult passages in pieces?

[crusader13]

im not sure how to elaborate on this but ill try my best

um, basically, im trying to learn a piano sonata before i turn 18. ive tried my hand at many sonatas but theres always this one section/passage in the piece that i just cannot for the life of me interpret, and its usually some sort of fast paced section too at that. ill try to practice it for like a few days but eventually i lose interest and give up until i can find something else.

i feel like my problem is im going too quickly or that im too worried about making mistakes. is there any way for me to force myself to play slowly and/or not worry about making mistakes as im practicing? also id love to hear how other people handle fast/difficult passages as well.

[quantum]

Break the work down into smaller sections.  Small enough that you can set goals and achieve them in a single practice session.  If your work sections are overwhelming they are too large.  

You also need to persist when learning music.  A few days is nothing.  

One of my teachers in university was known for playing ridiculously difficult music.  One time she was asked how she learns music like that and the response was: one note at a time, just like you would learn Mozart or Bach.  

[mjames]

In addition to what Organ man said, always start with the passages you think you're going to have the most trouble with.

[chopinlover01]

Just remember that dedication =/= brute force. Part of your regimen has to be making sure you're playing everything efficiently.

[georgey]

Just remember that dedication =/= brute force. Part of your regimen has to be making sure you're playing everything efficiently.

I completely agree.

I had to look up =/=.  I use <> myself.  Most programming languages, limiting themselves to the ASCII character set, use ~=, !=, /=, =/=, or <> to represent their boolean inequality operator.

Anybody know what language uses =/=?

[lostinidlewonder]

i feel like my problem is im going too quickly or that im too worried about making mistakes. is there any way for me to force myself to play slowly and/or not worry about making mistakes as im practicing? also id love to hear how other people handle fast/difficult passages as well.

I worry if I make mistakes while practicing because this means it will take a lot longer to learn the passage. Note errors, hesitations, fingering errors etc these all need to be avoided like the plague, your practice routines should emulate mastery and not weakness which needs to improve. If you are learning a piece and have a mountain of errors to contend with you probably are learning something much too difficult, you have trapped yourself and pretty much cannot avoid inefficient progress.

There are many ways to practice your passages, you can of course opt for slow and controlled tempo (a speed at which you can play the phrase or part of the phrase without uncontrolled hesitations and errors). Another way is to play passages at tempo and insert controlled pauses where you totally freeze your hands, consider what happens next then play the next part fast. I sometimes like to bracket off groups of notes to define when my hands must shift to a different position, often these are good points to insert controlled pauses. If there is a long string of single notes you can play them in rhythmic couples (short-long and long-short) or other groupings, this often helps with making your playing more fluid, good to use for when studying scales too.

Depending on what you are learning there will be specific strategies that can assist you in learning the passages, this is where a good teacher comes in handy or good specific questions asked and your personal challenge with the issue presented neatly online may yield better ideas than random advice on practicing as a whole.

[jinfiesto]

I completely agree.

I had to look up =/=.  I use <> myself.  Most programming languages, limiting themselves to the ASCII character set, use ~=, !=, /=, =/=, or <> to represent their boolean inequality operator.

Anybody know what language uses =/=?

No programming language uses that to my knowledge.

Additionally, to second what Chopin lover said, I would focus on making sure that the motions you're making are fundamentally correct. Speed will come and is generally not something worth worrying about.

[chopinlover01]

Additionally, to second what Chopin lover said, I would focus on making sure that the motions you're making are fundamentally correct. Speed will come and is generally not something worth worrying about.

But that's just it; speed is an important factor. Motions that are "correct" when playing (relatively) slow often will NOT cut it at breakneck tempos, so if you're playing this fast you're going to have to change your technique.

[georgey]

But that's just it; speed is an important factor. Motions that are "correct" when playing (relatively) slow often will NOT cut it at breakneck tempos, so if you're playing this fast you're going to have to change your technique.

I agree with this completely also.  If you can play in many speeds going from slow to performance tempo, there should be smooth, continuous changes in motion and technique.  Practicing at variety of temps MAY be helpful.  This will get a lot of different opinions I am sure.

[quantum]

When bridging practice from slow study towards performance tempo we also need to consider mental focus.  Playing fast requires a different cognitive approach than studying a passage slowly.  It is easy to get in the habit of thinking the solution is all physical by getting the body to work the way we want.  However, we also need to adapt our thinking pattern to playing fast.  It is like taking a photo of a scene with a telephoto lens, then taking another photo of the same scene with a wide angle.  You are looking at the same thing but in a different manner. 

When playing faster we often need to have the bigger picture in our mind - we need to be able to see farther down the road. 

[crusader13]

Depending on what you are learning there will be specific strategies that can assist you in learning the passages, this is where a good teacher comes in handy or good specific questions asked and your personal challenge with the issue presented neatly online may yield better ideas than random advice on practicing as a whole.

I've been self-taught since 14 years old and have been playing since age 10. I'm 16 so I've been playing for 6 years I guess lol (i probs mentioned this earlier but i felt it was necessary to say again)

well the sonatas i feel would be most possible for me to learn before im 18 that i would be interested in being able to play to a masterful extent would be the following:

czerny's 9th piano sonata in b minor
schubert's piano sonata in a minor (d845)
mozart's piano sonata in a minor
grieg's piano sonata in e minor
rachmaninoff's piano sonata in d and b flat minor
schumann (both clara and robert)'s piano sonatas in g minor
robert schumann's piano sonata in f sharp minor
all of faure's nocturnes and barcaroles
haydn's piano sonata in b, e, and g minor
beethoven's pathetique or appasionata. maybe even the hammerklavier.

the pieces i know how to play are:
mozart's fantasies in d and c minor
bach's bwv910, 923, some of the well tempered clavier preludes and fugues, his sinfonia in f minor, and a few more bach pieces
the first mov of beethoven's moonlight sonata. i attempted to learn the finale but i felt it was too much for me lmao
wagner fantasy in f sharp minor (the first mov)
fur elise
mozart adagio in b minor
chopin nocturne in f minor and f sharp minor
chopin polonaise in c minor
brahms intermezzo in e minor

if you guys think im not ready for the pieces i said i was interested in learning based on my repretoire then feel free to recommend me a sonata or suite in a minor key. ive always been biased to minor keys so i would like my first fully learned sonata to be in a minor key as well. thanks in advance.

[mjames]

medtner's f minor sonata op. 5 is a bit long but isn't too bad mechanically [fingering, required dexterity for ex.]. technically [articulation, voicings + mechanics etc] it's pretty demanding though still doable if you put in the work.

[outin]

medtner's f minor sonata op. 5 is a bit long but isn't too bad mechanically [fingering, required dexterity for ex.]. technically [articulation, voicings + mechanics etc] it's pretty demanding though still doable if you put in the work.

Really?? Just reading the score makes me run and hide...

But it's a wonderful sonata, please post a recording when you are done

[lostinidlewonder]

I've been self-taught since 14 years old and have been playing since age 10. I'm 16 so I've been playing for 6 years I guess lol (i probs mentioned this earlier but i felt it was necessary to say again)

well the sonatas i feel would be most possible for me to learn before im 18 that i would be interested in being able to play to a masterful extent would be the following:

czerny's 9th piano sonata in b minor
schubert's piano sonata in a minor (d845)
mozart's piano sonata in a minor
grieg's piano sonata in e minor
rachmaninoff's piano sonata in d and b flat minor
schumann (both clara and robert)'s piano sonatas in g minor
robert schumann's piano sonata in f sharp minor
all of faure's nocturnes and barcaroles
haydn's piano sonata in b, e, and g minor
beethoven's pathetique or appasionata. maybe even the hammerklavier.

the pieces i know how to play are:
mozart's fantasies in d and c minor
bach's bwv910, 923, some of the well tempered clavier preludes and fugues, his sinfonia in f minor, and a few more bach pieces
the first mov of beethoven's moonlight sonata. i attempted to learn the finale but i felt it was too much for me lmao
wagner fantasy in f sharp minor (the first mov)
fur elise
mozart adagio in b minor
chopin nocturne in f minor and f sharp minor
chopin polonaise in c minor
brahms intermezzo in e minor

if you guys think im not ready for the pieces i said i was interested in learning based on my repretoire then feel free to recommend me a sonata or suite in a minor key. ive always been biased to minor keys so i would like my first fully learned sonata to be in a minor key as well. thanks in advance.

That is a good list to give but it doesn't help you specifically really because people will poke guesses at what is best for you to do etc. If you have a specific troublesome bars in a piece that you want to look at, share with us your fingering to solve it and perhaps there then might be some more relevant suggestions to help you master the sections.

[mjames]

Really?? Just reading the score makes me run and hide...

But it's a wonderful sonata, please post a recording when you are done

? ? ?

I'm not working on it yet. I first plan to learn a few skazkis before I work on the 1st movement. May I ask which parts you find to be tricky? I think for me the tricky part is the one leading up to the coda. Rhythmically straightforward, but I still feel like getting the "character" of it will be tough. Other than that I don't see any other bad parts.

Only talking about the 1st, haven't looked at the other ones yet.

[crusader13]

That is a good list to give but it doesn't help you specifically really because people will poke guesses at what is best for you to do etc. If you have a specific troublesome bars in a piece that you want to look at, share with us your fingering to solve it and perhaps there then might be some more relevant suggestions to help you master the sections.

honestly the ones out of that list i am really only working on is schubert's d845, mozart's k310a and grieg's piano sonata.

with the grieg sonata im finding getting the tempo right on it the hardest as its in allegro moderato and 2/4 time, so im confused as to what the performance tempo goal should be.

with mozart's k310a, the problem i have with it is the first movement's main themes and getting the 16th notes right as well as the tempo.

with schubert's d845, im having trouble with the andante movement as the tempo fluctuates throughout the piece and 32nd notes begin to come into play - like im not sure if i should play them quickly or slowly.

out of these 3 pieces the sonata that i am most close to learning completely is the d845. ive played the entire piece through with both hands separately cleanly and fairly efficiently. if possible, id like to make it my first completely learned sonata.

Really?? Just reading the score makes me run and hide...

But it's a wonderful sonata, please post a recording when you are done

i kind of have f minor phobia ^^' the key is just too dark for me lmao. but maybe ill get in the mood to play it at some point. ill add it to my list. thanks you two :^)

[outin]

? ? ?

I'm not working on it yet. I first plan to learn a few skazkis before I work on the 1st movement. May I ask which parts you find to be tricky? I think for me the tricky part is the one leading up to the coda. Rhythmically straightforward, but I still feel like getting the "character" of it will be tough. Other than that I don't see any other bad parts.

Only talking about the 1st, haven't looked at the other ones yet.

I was talking about the whole thing...but even the first movement is too many notes not so easy to voice right with my hands...I don't even need to try to play it to see it would take me forever to get through that...

[crusader13]

honestly the ones out of that list i am really only working on is schubert's d845, mozart's k310a and grieg's piano sonata.

with the grieg sonata im finding getting the tempo right on it the hardest as its in allegro moderato and 2/4 time, so im confused as to what the performance tempo goal should be.

with mozart's k310a, the problem i have with it is the first movement's main themes and getting the 16th notes right as well as the tempo.

with schubert's d845, im having trouble with the andante movement as the tempo fluctuates throughout the piece and 32nd notes begin to come into play - like im not sure if i should play them quickly or slowly.

Anyone have any solutions for this? Also I have another question: is it best for me to practice slowly or at performance tempo first?

[visitor]

Anyone have any solutions for this? Also I have another question: is it best for me to practice slowly or at performance tempo first?

you should practice at the fastest tempo that allows you to play in control, musically with attention to detail and accurately. if that means up to tempo so be it, if you're not there, then you're not there and should slow down enough to address these issues then promptly speed it up to get to performance tempo. also not sure why you limited to 'performance tempo'. i have found with fast work in particular it is helpful to work the piece faster than performance tempo that way if and when you're nervous and speed up, you'll still be in control. or so when you 'slow down' on stage, with nerves you likely will still be an acceptable range tempo wise.
honestly so far as effective performance on a list of the things i stated above the tempo I am least worried about (within reason, since you would not 'perform' something like a vivace at and andante tempo, but if you cannot play it fast you are still learning it since you have not executed what the score calls for).

also to OP , do you have an issue or problem with major keys? you listed some cool pieces but that first thin i noticed was the absence of any major keys which i find give some of the most satisfying contrasts as modulations and borrowed harmony into minor modes can be quite expressive and highlight emotion when the tonic is major. not harping, just found it odd (i don't prefer major or minor one way or the other....)

[crusader13]

you should practice at the fastest tempo that allows you to play in control, musically with attention to detail and accurately. if that means up to tempo so be it, if you're not there, then you're not there and should slow down enough to address these issues then promptly speed it up to get to performance tempo. also not sure why you limited to 'performance tempo'. i have found with fast work in particular it is helpful to work the piece faster than performance tempo that way if and when you're nervous and speed up, you'll still be in control. or so when you 'slow down' on stage, with nerves you likely will still be an acceptable range tempo wise.
honestly so far as effective performance on a list of the things i stated above the tempo I am least worried about (within reason, since you would not 'perform' something like a vivace at and andante tempo, but if you cannot play it fast you are still learning it since you have not executed what the score calls for).

also to OP , do you have an issue or problem with major keys? you listed some cool pieces but that first thin i noticed was the absence of any major keys which i find give some of the most satisfying contrasts as modulations and borrowed harmony into minor modes can be quite expressive and highlight emotion when the tonic is major. not harping, just found it odd (i don't prefer major or minor one way or the other....)

i limited it to performance tempo because performance tempo is basically what tempo the score says to play it. i dont like putting more effort into a piece than is necessary for it to be played the way it implies. ill try to do that though thanks man.

major keys are just way too bright for me. minor keys are a lot more dark and expressive imo but that's just my opinion.

also if anyone has any tips for playing allegro moderato in 2/4 time or moderato in cut time id appreciate it

[anamnesis]

you should practice at the fastest tempo that allows you to play in control, musically with attention to detail and accurately. if that means up to tempo so be it, if you're not there, then you're not there and should slow down enough to address these issues then promptly speed it up to get to performance tempo. also not sure why you limited to 'performance tempo'. i have found with fast work in particular it is helpful to work the piece faster than performance tempo that way if and when you're nervous and speed up, you'll still be in control. or so when you 'slow down' on stage, with nerves you likely will still be an acceptable range tempo wise.
honestly so far as effective performance on a list of the things i stated above the tempo I am least worried about (within reason, since you would not 'perform' something like a vivace at and andante tempo, but if you cannot play it fast you are still learning it since you have not executed what the score calls for).

also to OP , do you have an issue or problem with major keys? you listed some cool pieces but that first thin i noticed was the absence of any major keys which i find give some of the most satisfying contrasts as modulations and borrowed harmony into minor modes can be quite expressive and highlight emotion when the tonic is major. not harping, just found it odd (i don't prefer major or minor one way or the other....)

I don't know why there's been a recent brouhaha over tempo.  It's an important artistic choice and  realm of exploration that will directly affect intertwined technical execution and artistic expression.  

Choice of tempo and the ability to do justice to it affects what structural details will be most salient to the audience; moreover, if will affect how the pianist experiences the phrase rhythm necessary for performance.  Without taking it into account into the rest of the interpretation, we risk ignoring the long line rhythmic progression that gives integral beauty to a piece in favor of the "ifs, ands, or buts".  

[jinfiesto]

But that's just it; speed is an important factor. Motions that are "correct" when playing (relatively) slow often will NOT cut it at breakneck tempos, so if you're playing this fast you're going to have to change your technique.

I'm not sure I agree. I used to think similarly, but after I studied with a good teacher who really understood arm-weight technique, I've come to think otherwise. I think it's perfectly possible to determine in advance what the correct motions at speed are going to be, then just practice them slow...

Though I may not be the best person to give advice on this. I've never had any issues playing fast. Plenty of other problems, though playing fast has never been one of them...

[crusader13]

okay so i took everyone's advice and tried to apply it to practicing mozart's piano sonata in a minor, but suddenly i got lightheaded from trying so hard i couldnt play it right and i had to stop. has anyone ever had this happen to them? the passages in question is the intro just before the c major first subject.

i just couldnt play the left and right hand in sync even though ive played it through with both hands so many times perfectly. anyone have any advice?

[lostinidlewonder]

okay so i took everyone's advice and tried to apply it to practicing mozart's piano sonata in a minor, but suddenly i got lightheaded from trying so hard i couldnt play it right and i had to stop. has anyone ever had this happen to them? the passages in question is the intro just before the c major first subject.

i just couldnt play the left and right hand in sync even though ive played it through with both hands so many times perfectly. anyone have any advice?

It's all too vague what you are saying. What Bars are you talking about and what are your fingering solutions for the passages?

[crusader13]

It's all too vague what you are saying. What Bars are you talking about and what are your fingering solutions for the passages?

the first two pages of the piece (https://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/b/be/IMSLP56317-PMLP01843-Mozart_Werke_Breitkopf_Serie_20_KV310.pdf)

in bars 1 - 4 i have a hard time transitioning in bar 1 left hand from playing A-C-E with my 1-3-5 fingers and then switching to playing A-B-D-E with my 1-2-4-5 fingers.

in bars 5 - 8 i have a hard time getting the right notes on the left hand as mozart wants you to tie the C whilst fluctuating through to different chords. my fingering for that part is basically holding the C with my 5 finger and legatoing the 3rd to the 2nd with my 1-3-4 to 2-4. switching from a 3rd to a 2nd is very frustrating idk why, especially since my left hand isnt my dominant hand

with the right hand for bars 1 - 16 i have a problem syncing the right hand with the left. bar 15 and 16 have both caused me a lot of trouble in particular. because you have to switch from those repetitive chords to quarter note chords and then switch  to regular old 8th notes on the left hand. and the bars before those cause so much strain to both my hands that it just doesnt sound right.

from those bars onward to the coda of the first subject, its all a matter of those 16th notes killing my hands even more.

also on the left hand with bars 10 and 12 - 14, the fingering i used was 1-2-4-5 for bar 10 and with bar 12 i often have trouble figuring out whether to use my 2nd or 3rd finger but i still use my 1 and 5 finger to play the root and top part of the chord. as a result of that confusion, along with the strain from playing the previous bars, i end up fumbling on the 13 - 15 bars just before the sonata transitions to the first subject

[lostinidlewonder]

the first two pages of the piece (https://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/b/be/IMSLP56317-PMLP01843-Mozart_Werke_Breitkopf_Serie_20_KV310.pdf)

in bars 1 - 4 i have a hard time transitioning in bar 1 left hand from playing A-C-E with my 1-3-5 fingers and then switching to playing A-B-D-E with my 1-2-4-5 fingers.

Thanks for being more specific that does help clear the situation a great deal. Sorry if I seem blunt but if this is a problem for you then you are playing a piece that is much too difficult for you. You need to start with music which doesn't give you so much problems and build from there, that is the best advice I can give you.