I've stumped my teacher and it isn't a win for anyone: What to do?

[bernadette60614]

I'm a pretty good piano student: practice, have short and long term goals, listen and ask questions.  I believe I've made progress..sometimes painfully but the outcome had been worthwhile.

However, I have stumped my teacher and myself:

I seem to have no internal sense of rhythm.  I've working on Beethoven's first sonata and some sections I play perfectly and then when that is repeated, my rhythm is completely off.  That internal "beat" which keeps a piece steady doesn't seem to be part of my musicality.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you, all.

[stevensk]

Metronome?

[keypeg]

What kinds of strategies have you been taught to use when encountering complicated things in rhythm?  Not just to draw on "internal sense of rhythm" I hope.

[indianajo]

Nearly everybody can walk.  this requires a steady rhythm generated by the brain and sent to the leg muscles. It alternates sides, the way 4/4 time has strong beats and weak beats alternating.  funny thing, the majority of music is in 4/4 or 2/4 time.  
nearly everybody can run.  This involves similar rhythm, but faster.
The trick is connecting that existing brain circuit, to the hands and fingers.
Many young students get too involved in emotion, in varying the rhythm according to some feel for emotion, drama, climax and relax.  This should come years after the sense of rhythm is established. NOT in the beginning.  I practice my new pieces steadily until the movements and notes are learned,  Starting very slowly so I make no mistakes, then faster and faster.   Then I add emotional tricks as I feel necessary.  (Possibly not enough for some listeners)  
I prescribe a regime of marches, and if you can't find those, hymns.  Onward Christian Soldiers is in every protestant hymnal available at charity resale shops for not much.  Pretend you are marching.  Move your feet in simulated steps if necessary.  Until your hands get the hang of it.  
A metronome is a crutch, and should be used very sparingly, only in the beginning. 60-80 bpm should be the desired speed in the beginning, unless you need to go slower for note accuracy.  
If you get beyond simple rnythm, try J P Sousa marches as published in Everybody Favorites Piano solos for the Young Student, or similar fifties compliations.
If that is too hard, start by playing recordings of marches in your back yard.  March around in rhythm.  This would reinforce your sense of the walking circuit.  Everybody has one, walking upright bipedally is wired into the normal human brain,  Salamanders would have no clue, one foot at a time is their gait,  but we do.   
Best of luck.    

[mjames]

Is that possible? Not having an internal sense of time? I second Steven's advice, perhaps just practice more with the metronome.

[timothy42b]

Is that possible? Not having an internal sense of time? I second Steven's advice, perhaps just practice more with the metronome.

Yes, I've run into people like that, including recently a talented kid who intends a career in music. 

I think/hope a sense of rhythm can be internalized by connection to physical movement.  Marching band would be ideal.  Failing that, performing actions to a metronome and later to music (and insisting on precision) would be the way to do it.

Counting rhythms is not effective here - you need to learn them by rote.  Possibly this is always true anyway. 

Older people without a sense of rhythm struggle.  Those I've met (church choir, etc.) don't seem to improve.   But I don't think it's hopeless, with some effort. 

[dogperson]

Yes, you can have difficulty internalizing rhythm... but yes, you can work to improve it.  You should look at Dalcroze methodology:  see if there is a teacher or a summer workshop in your area. 

[bernadette60614]

Yes, to answer Keypeg, I have fairly much relied upon my internal sense.

However, I think I've been able to do this because what I've played has been fairly straightforward.  Bach Little Preludes, early Mozart sonatas, simpler Chopin Preludes.

My Big Mountain is the Beethoven first sonata which is the most complex piece on which I've worked.

I'm wondering if I should just go back and write in the counting, go back to hands alone counting and then put it back hands together.

In the years off and on that I've taken lessons, my current teacher is the only one who has really focused on absolutely, precise, accurate rhythms.

I believe this is because my prior teachers saw me more as an engaged hobbyist, and my current sees me as a serious student who wants to earn a degree.

[timothy42b]

In the years off and on that I've taken lessons, my current teacher is the only one who has really focused on absolutely, precise, accurate rhythms.

Not all teachers are good at absolutely precise rhythms themselves.  You finally have a good one. 

Here is something that works.  Don't count the measure or phrase at all.

Instead, type it into a notation program, put repeat signs front and back, and let the computer do an absolutely perfect rendition, over and over.

Listen to it.  Play it yourself.  Listen.  Get that rhythm learned by rote, not by counting.  Check it by recording it.  (have Audacity running on your laptop, same time as your notation program.) 

[louispodesta]

Yes, you can have difficulty internalizing rhythm... but yes, you can work to improve it.  You should look at Dalcroze methodology:  see if there is a teacher or a summer workshop in your area. 

1)  This is excellent advice, from which I have personally benefited.  I have low-level Parkinson's Disease and have had tremors all of my 65 years.  That, Bernadette, is what the term "baby steps" means, in regards matriculation at the piano.

My own instructor, Dr. David Frego, is Department Chair of Music and Dance at the University of Texas at San Antonio.  He regularly teaches seminars globally, and also deals with Traumatic Brain Injury soldiers/patients at the Center for the Intrepid at Fort Sam Houston.  You cannot get any more baby steps than that.

Accordingly, here are two links to Dalcroze, which might get you on your way, partially:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalcroze_Eurhythmics
https://www.dalcrozeusa.org/about-us/history

2)  As delineated in my video,

an essential part of original performance practice was not only improvisation, but also tempo modification.  THAT DOES NOT MEAN that one throws the rhythm of a particular piece out the window.  But, what it does mean is that once a person has a decent sense of time, then perfect metronomic accuracy is not the way this music was originally played.

So, once again, I highly recommend Dalcroze, and if you need the names and addresses of a particular teacher, based on your geography, please do not hesitate to contact me by PM.

And, whatever you do, please do not consider yourself hopeless because that is a falsehood.  If with my physical maladies, I can do it, anyone can do it!

There is no shame in "baby steps."  If I had a dollar for all of the so-called piano contest prodigies who crashed and burned (when they ignored the basic physical and mental reality of playing this great instrument), I would definitely never want for money!

[xdjuicebox]

Headbang!

But if you do it excessively it'll mess up your playing so idk but some sort of bodily motion

Maybe listen to some hip hop for a while LOL jk