Piano Forum

Print

Pages: [1] Go Down

Topic: Opera in Piano Music (Read 2850 times)

beethovenfan01

Sr. Member
Posts: 288

Opera in Piano Music

on: January 20, 2017, 04:30:08 AM

Perhaps the title is somewhat misleading.

I'm just curious how big a role opera plays in piano music, especially it's composition and interpretation. I know it influenced Chopin's composition style hugely, as well as Bach's and number of other composers. Not being much of an opera person, I don't know much about this aspect of piano music, and I didn't care about it very much--up until I had an interesting conversation with my teacher today that began with the "recitative" section of the Prelude from Bach's Prelude and Fugue No. 2, Book 1. Can anyone with more experience shed light on this?

Thanks!

Logged

Practicing:
Bach Chromatic Fantasie and Fugue
Beethoven Sonata Op. 10 No. 1
Shostakovich Preludes Op. 34
Scriabin Etude Op. 2 No. 1
Liszt Fantasie and Fugue on BACH

dcstudio

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 2421

Re: Opera in Piano Music

Reply #1 on: January 20, 2017, 06:13:28 AM

Opera...though not popular today was a foundation, a purpose, a reason for the evolution of music. I would say only the Catholic Mass is more important...and that's debatable. To ask it's influence on piano music...it's too large of a subject. We would have no piano without opera...and the Catholic Church..

The recitative sections of operas are like "conversational" or spoken but still sung. I suggest you go on YouTube and search Aria...and then recitative. Listen to examples of both...and notice the difference between the two. This should shed light on what your teacher is saying.

Very good question...thank you

Logged

https://www.youtube.com/user/dcstudio

keypeg

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 3922

Re: Opera in Piano Music

Reply #2 on: January 20, 2017, 09:49:00 AM

I'm thinking that recitative in opera is different than recitative in the Baroque period but I'd have to brush up on my music history. Btw, music history is the place to go. Probably what the teacher was trying to get at was things like a feeling for a singing line, which is harder to achieve or envision in piano, since piano is more about harmony and is "percussive" (thrown hammers).

Opera could not have influenced Bach's music because it didn't exist yet.

Logged

keypeg

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 3922

Re: Opera in Piano Music

Reply #3 on: January 20, 2017, 09:49:37 AM

double post

Logged

andrewuk

PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 68

Re: Opera in Piano Music

Reply #4 on: January 20, 2017, 10:47:54 AM

Quote from: keypeg on January 20, 2017, 09:49:00 AM

Opera could not have influenced Bach's music because it didn't exist yet.

Monteverdi's operas were written before Bach was born.

Logged

dcstudio

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 2421

Re: Opera in Piano Music

Reply #5 on: January 20, 2017, 01:42:54 PM

L'Orfeo...Monteverdi.

The oldest surviving opera that is still performed. (Somewhere my music history prof is smiling)

Take a core music history class at any university and you will learn all about opera...lol.

To include Bach in a discussion about the influence of opera in piano music?...JSB didn't compose for the piano because the instrument had yet to become popular in his time. Opera, no doubt influenced his music but he was a church musician by trade.

Ah..yes....listening to the coloratura singing the Queen of the Night aria at 8:00am...after frequenting the local tavern the night before....man, I miss music school

Logged

https://www.youtube.com/user/dcstudio

iansinclair

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 1472

Re: Opera in Piano Music

Reply #6 on: January 20, 2017, 05:39:30 PM

Quote from: dcstudio on January 20, 2017, 01:42:54 PM

L'Orfeo...Monteverdi.

The oldest surviving opera that is still performed. (Somewhere my music history prof is smiling)

Take a core music history class at any university and you will learn all about opera...lol.

Ah..yes....listening to the coloratura singing the Queen of the Night aria at 8:00am...after frequenting the local tavern the night before....man, I miss music school

THAT must have woken you up!

Yike! But -- no surprise -- you are absolutely right about the influence of opera (and, before Monteverdi, a few more centuries of sung music!) and the Catholic Mass (especially, but not exclusively, the Ordinary of the Requiem Mass) on Western music. Indispensable.

Logged

Ian

keypeg

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 3922

Re: Opera in Piano Music

Reply #7 on: January 21, 2017, 07:32:40 PM

I wanted to check back on what I might have misremembered over time, and went back to my history book. So opera did indeed start in the Baroque era, though it evolved over time. I think what stuck in my head was Handel going to England and finally being free to go toward opera and away from the endless oratorios, and that oratorios had ruled the day. It was a vague memory.

The question was about Bach - I didn't remember anything about Bach writing operas - and also remember he was jailed at one point for being too innovative. Actually that was another part of my vague memory: some lecture about Handel being more free than Bach, and Beethoven a lot more free than either of them. Anyway, I did a search on "Bach + opera" and found this interesting discussion. It may be helpful to the OP:

https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Topics/Opera.htm

Logged

keypeg

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 3922

Re: Opera in Piano Music

Reply #8 on: January 21, 2017, 07:33:16 PM

Of course in Bach's time the piano didn't exist yet. But its predecessors did.

Logged

brogers70

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 1756

Re: Opera in Piano Music

Reply #9 on: January 22, 2017, 12:39:40 AM

Quote from: beethovenfan01 on January 20, 2017, 04:30:08 AM

Perhaps the title is somewhat misleading.

I'm just curious how big a role opera plays in piano music, especially it's composition and interpretation. I know it influenced Chopin's composition style hugely, as well as Bach's and number of other composers. Not being much of an opera person, I don't know much about this aspect of piano music, and I didn't care about it very much--up until I had an interesting conversation with my teacher today that began with the "recitative" section of the Prelude from Bach's Prelude and Fugue No. 2, Book 1. Can anyone with more experience shed light on this?

Thanks!

Lots of composers who pianists may think of primarily as composers for the piano had big operatic ambitions. Mozart wrote plenty of them. Bach, though he didn't write operas, spent most of his composing effort, by far, on cantatas and the Passions, which certainly have operatic qualities. And even Beethoven, though he only finished one opera, was constantly trying to start up collaborations with librettists on hypothetical opera projects. My piano teacher told me that when working on Mozart sonatas, one way to think about how to play them is to imagine the various themes in the exposition as representing operatic characters, and I do think it's helpful.

Logged

dcstudio

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 2421

Re: Opera in Piano Music

Reply #10 on: January 22, 2017, 07:18:56 AM

Impressive teacher you had there.Brogers

To take that a step further.

studying the Mozart operas leads to a better understanding of the piano sonatas... and of the composer's ideas on how they should be played.
The Fantasy in d minor springs to mind immediately when I think of an "operatic" piano study by Mozart.

Opera was clearly a passion of his.
It's hard to pick a favorite...Don Giovanni...Figaro, Magic Flute... for those here who have never had the pleasure of hearing these go now and be amazed.

To the OP: I do believe your question has been answered. How big of a role? So large that through the study of opera you learn something indispensable about how to play the piano. The human voice is, after all, the most perfect instrument.

Logged

https://www.youtube.com/user/dcstudio

Sign-up to post reply

Print

Pages: [1] Go Up

For more information about this topic, click search below!

SMF 2.0.19 | SMF © 2021, Simple Machines